Originally posted by ariccaron

At this point any game company would do better.

You guys do realise that the most likely canidate to buy this game would be SoE right? They have a habbit of buying up bad games with no future just to add more games to their stable. Examples: Vanguard, Matrix Online. And I think we all know how those games ended due to the other habbit SoE has of taking games (good ones and bad ones) and somehow making them worse.

I won't even bother to cover the whole SWG NGE thing again...

Vangaurd was crap  to begin with, Brad Mcquaid lied about the quality of his product at every turn and was apparently on drugs most of the time it was in development. At launch and for about a year after a lot of fanboys ranted about how Sony was going to "fix" this game, but you can see in this rant from a former Vanguard developer that didn't happen, Sony didn't even try apparently: "Sony didn't do ****. The extent of sony's help was 2 designers who ended up writing some diplomacy quests in Tanvu and some adventuring quests in Tursh. I think there was an artist that came in 2 days a week or something for about a month also."

MxO shut down recently. I've heard nothing but bad things about the way Sony ran the game after getting their greedy paws on it. They apparently closed down the live events team very shortly after taking over, which seemed to be the only aspect of this game that was even remotely unique. Then they released several major overhauls of the combat system, each one being no improvement over the old systems it replaced. Pretty much everyone quit the game at this point and Sony proceeded to ignore the game completely until they finally colsed it down.

A game originally published by SEGA of all people, then taken over by SoE, thats a recipe for disaster if I've ever seen one. But imagine this: A game originally owned by Gary Whiting and then bought out by SoE. That should be enough to give you chills just thinking about it. The only way we could possibly make it worse is if Sony decided to use the same third party billing company from Dark and Light that refused to let people cancel their accounts and charged people who never even signed up to play.

Interesting read that court doc, but it did raise some odd questions to me

6. CME and CMG are partnered with MMOGULS, as far as I knew no official contract actually exists, this could be dropped as hearsay or specualtion, or a passing comment by GW that was never actually fulfilled.  We have heard over and over there is no contractual agreement between MMOGULS and CME, so this will be an interesting one to prove.

8. MMOGULS may have been designed to MARKET the product, but again without a contract with CME this would hold no water.

9.They knew that SGW would be key in MMOGULS success, was this just buzzwords and such for getting the investors in, I know they dropped other big title games into their marketing machine, are they just using SGW as a way to target CME, because of who is at the helm, as far as I knew SGW would just be 1 of many AAA titles in MMOGULS.

14. They accept they launched MMOGULS with no games, and were literally taking money in for nothing.

28. CME obtained licences and raised money to create studios.  Nothing to do with mmoguls, or any of mmoguls cash, as this was investors money, not GW's.  Not quite sure why they are stating this, unless they are insinuating MMOGULS INVESTORS money was used to fund CME without there consent.

alot missing as it jumps to 38 from 28.

38. Stating that GW controls MMOGULS CME and other stuff.

41. speculation.  As we know that investors have come in and a SG based game is being completed as we chat.

42. speculation.  Now I think this is what the real court case is about, whether or not GW is fit to run MMOGULS.

Overall I guess the likely hood of getting money back in PRE release products, or money INVESTED in projects that havent been completed is not really going to happen.  From reading the stuff it sounds more likely that she is unhappy with how MMOGULS is run (the missing or moved money) and the person running it, if anything I would say that the missing/moved money will be hammered out, and then the judge would possibly bring in some sort of controller or force the man from the helm, I seriously doubt anything would happen at CME, but the control of MMOGULS could be moved away from GW.

This case doesnt stand a chance of effecting the company CME or the products its making, we know control of all money is now in the hands of the investors at CME, my guess is that this court case will make that also the case at MMOGULS.

Originally posted by Zhiroc

I was thinking... OK, let's say Nedra wins their lawsuit. Then what?

Would she be looking to liquidate and get out what she can, or finish the game? And if the latter, that means with MMOGULs as part of it, right? She's not some white knight rescuing SGW from the jaws of an MLM... she's into that full bore.

What of the "new investors" and MGM who want no part of an MLM?

I'm not saying I'd rather have GW, but just thinking ahead.

What a mess.

 

I know this doesn't sound like the smartest thing but who or what is Nedra?

Originally posted by yellowperil

This case doesnt stand a chance of effecting the company CME or the products its making 

I sort of see your point. I could cut off my left hand and not injure my right hand. But my whole body is still injured.

I know you are fighting hard not to have to accept the fact that CME and MMOGULS is the same thing, but this reality will eventually set in. When it does, you'll begin to see any litigation involving any part of the "body" as a serious threat.

Originally posted by supremeaaron 

 

I know this doesn't sound like the smartest thing but who or what is Nedra?

Check out this awesome Wyoming state Supreme Court case document from Findlaw.com. These are the kinds of people involved in the funding of MMOGULS and SGW.

Oh, she has a Facebook account, too.

Originally posted by Pugla

 

Check out this awesome Wyoming state Supreme Court case document from Findlaw.com. These are the kinds of people involved in the funding of MMOGULS and SGW.

 

Oh, she has a Facebook account, too.

Thanks.

Nedra is Nedra Roney McKell, one of the founders of Nu Skin Enterprises, now one of the largest MLMs.

I believe that verbal contracts can be made to stand in some cases, particularly in the case of misrepresentation or fraud. But the crux of the matter are the allegations that money was transferred between corporations/GW improperly. I'm not exactly sure if the statements of the ties between CME and MMOGULS are really very important, other than to paint a picture of GW.

However, I think you miss the point of this lawsuit. It is not on the merits of Nedra's case. She has already gotten a Utah court to issue a (temporary?) restraining order, and to appoint a receiver for CME/CMG (and maybe the others? I'm not sure). In other words, someone who is going to come in and take over operational control of the companies. Now, it depends what they have in mind. If it's to cash out, they'll  shut the place down to preserve capital and try to sell what they got. If it's to make the game, they'll continue on, and most likely with the MLM plans intact. In the middle, they could keep on the same course that CME says they are on, take the money from the investors, and see what happens, I guess.

GW is attempting to delay/deny it. I'm not sure what his chances are. I imagine that most courts would say, go fight that point out in Utah, where the order was given. But as long as that order stands, I think it is an uphil climb for him. I guess we'll see after today's hearing where it stands.

The point is if anything, they would try and recoup monies from GW, he would do this by liquidating his stock in CME or selling his part in MMOGULS, or try and get stock to the equivalent in CME stock. 

Maybe get MMOGULS from GW, and maybe some stock in CME.

I really cant see CME suffering, if anything if they were given control of MMOGULS and then given shares in CME, they would still not have a controlling qty of stock in CME to make any decisions without the other share holders.  All they would do is move control of the company back to the stock holders, and since no one person would hold 51%, it would fall back into the majority making the decisions.

Again we are speculating here, but as far as I know, this is against the man not the company, and if anything they maybe after control of MMOGULS, and they will still not have a contract with CME for marketing the game(s) CME produce.

If they remove GW from power at CME (or whatever, loses control due to not owning 51% of shares), more than anything this will be the death of MMOGULS, as the controlling majority would really not bother with MMOGULS at all (why bother with something that has no value to CME at all, especially with all the bad press and scandal (supposedly) thats gone on with it).  They would be under no legal binding contract to fulfil what GW may have said in the past, this would be an awesome time to cut the line between MMOGULS and CME once and for all.

If anything whatever the outcome, I see the death of MMOGULS, but not CME.  My reasoning for this is that GW loses control of MMOGULS, and maybe sells some CME shares to payback monies owed.  He may lose control of CME as being the main share holder, and control would then fall to the majority decision with the share holders. If this happens, who in there right mind would say yes to MMOGULS being a marketing body for CME games when there is no advantage for them to do this.

In the end it would mean a reshuffling of people owning shares, and things will continue, there is just no way they could take control of CME, no matter how much they wanted it.

Really all I can see is, they are just trying to recoup loses and maybe take control of MMOGULS.

I can see how they jumped at releasing MMOGULS (GW and the rest of them, they even said they made the decision, not just GW at launching early) way way WAY before SGW would be shipped, and even before they had a base of games available for the MMOGULS people. AND THEY KNEW THIS.

Originally posted by yellowperil

Again we are speculating here, but as far as I know, this is against the man not the company, and if anything they maybe after control of MMOGULS, and they will still not have a contract with CME for marketing the game(s) CME produce.

If Kyrie included the court order from Utah in her copying, we might get a better picture.

But, as of what we can see, the suit is officially filed against: GW, CME, CMG, MMOGULS, Now, and Garvick in AZ. I'm guessing that the Utah order is against them all as well, but I can't be sure.

It could very well be that the receiver will come in and cease all spending, pending further outcomes in Utah, for all we know. It depends on what Nedra has in mind. She might just want to take the loss for tax purposes. Or maybe he will just clean out exec management. Or nothing, except to start auditing books.

I can't imagine that any information that suggests MMOGULS and CME had talked about concrete plans will thrill either MGM or the new investors, though.

Zhiroc, there is no chance they could take full control of CME, if anything they could take some stock, but how much money would you put on 51% of CME shares, do you think a couple of million that they have put in equals 51% of the stock of cme, I dont think so.  If anything 5mil maybe will get them 5%, the amount of money they would be asking for is but a small drop compared to what CME is actually worth, with games in progress, or on hold or whatever.

I really cannot see some dodgy dealings, and around 2.5mil in investment in MMOGULS being the death of CME, maybe GW would lose control, but for them to gain control of CME is pretty laughable, remember there is alot of other investors in CME, not just GW.

The Utah court has appointed a receiver. According to that Wikipedia entry:

the receiver completely displaces the defendants: the receiver makes large and small decisions, spends the organization’s funds, and controls hiring and firing determinations.

In other words, the court has circumvented the normal corporate structure.

The court docs that Kyrie posted did say on the first part, p. 7, that:

Judge Laycock then altered the order by hand-writing a brief line stating: "Vick Deauvono shall also act as Receiver under Rule 66 of the Utah Rules of Civil Procedure for each of the above-listed entities"

as far as I knew GW didnt actually control any of the money decisions anymore anyways, the group of investors that came in with there money are now controlling how its spent, is this guy gonna come in, and say no you cant do that, and watch the investors leave ?

As far as I knew, they were only putting in a little at a time and controlling what was spent, if this guy comes in he wont have anything to spend, or control, as the investors literally only put in what they need and when they need it.

I have the feeling that even if they did bring this guy in, he would have little to no control over the money or how it would be spent.

This gets back to what they want to do.

It is within his power to lay everyone off and suspend development, so as not to incur any more liabilities until the court case is settled and the game's progress and viability is determined.

Or he could continue things as they are. While the inflow of capital is supposedly gated by the investors, I believe the court gives him sole right to spend that as he sees fit. This too could upset the cart, as the investors may decide they don't want to give up the control.

No matter what on that side, he could very well replace the entire executive management team (e.g., Jenson).

Many outcomes are possible, but we won't know which until this plays out some more.

well ten ton hammer have said what we have said as well, www.tentonhammer.com/node/74326 so seems pretty official to me now. How long until mmorpg.com staff report this officially.

Originally posted by yellowperil

as far as I knew GW didnt actually control any of the money decisions anymore anyways, the group of investors that came in with there money are now controlling how its spent, is this guy gonna come in, and say no you cant do that, and watch the investors leave ?

As far as I knew, they were only putting in a little at a time and controlling what was spent, if this guy comes in he wont have anything to spend, or control, as the investors literally only put in what they need and when they need it.

I have the feeling that even if they did bring this guy in, he would have little to no control over the money or how it would be spent.

Just because a group of investors gives you some money, does not mean get you get to do with it what you please or they please, especially if you have a garnishment or a judgment out against Whiting, CME, MMOGULS, etc.    CME owes some serious cash to many.  

Oddly, CME recently changed banks -- maybe in an effort for dodging payment on some of the old debts owed?  Yeah, tell the courts we still bank with Wells Fargo, but have the investors deposit it somewhere else.

First off a CME share is worth less than 2cents and I doubt a stock certificate from Gary Whiting is going to settle this court case over $2.5 milllion! Secondly the lawsuit includes CME so it does very much effect CME, or what's left of that sad sorry company. Yellow, the blind wraith believer posts are getting old, everytime you post I see this in my mind,

That's it, that sums up every single post that Yellowperil has ever made in these forums. Yellow if you have any evidence that MMOGUL's and CME are seperate please post the links. I'll post mine first,

GARVICK PROPERTIES LLC - owned by Whiting and the company CME shareholders write a cheque to in order to purchase CME shares.

Cheyene Mountain Entertainment - Failed MMORPG company owned by Gary Whiting and does work for MMOGULs. Until recently was situated in the same building as MMOGULs.

MMOGULS inc - Whiting owned pyramid scheme that sells the product CME was making, also has paid CME to produce artwork for them.

The Now Corporation - Whiting company that is the ultimate owner of many Whiting companies including his many shell corporations.

Itz Your Mall inc - A Whiting company being run by Keith Deering who is also on the board of directors at CME. This company has a contract with both CME and MMOGULs. To sell SGW through itz your mall to MMOGULs.

If you either don't understand that or don't want to then you can hear it from the horses mouth,MMOGULS podcast with Gary Whiting - Gary Whiting states himself in no uncertain terms that his company CME will be selling SGW to customers of his company MMOGULs in an exclusive deal in order to perpetuate his pyramid scheme.

If you don't get it then you need your head testing, if you have evidence to the contrary then link it before you start off on the blind faith dogma of team Whiting,

Thankyou,

Agricola

It would be interesting to see the full script of that document, I noticed quite a few pages were missing 10 on one side and ?? many on the other.

I am sure it will be interesting to see the outcome of the case, but in most cases that people are trying to extract something or get something, they always aim a lot higher on the payout.  But as I read the cut down script I see quite a few things that are relevant to the case on both sides.

It seems from GW's point of view that MMOGULS has been tried once already to be taken away from him, I dont know the legal stuff, but just because you invested in something doesn't make you the owner of it.  And I think this court case really is about taking MMOGULS away from GW, using references to what he has done in the other companies as reference to why he should not run it anymore.  This does not mean he will lose his company, but he would not be the have the control of how money is used or spent anymore, I dont know if this could then be used to oust him, but the company is registered in his name and belongs to him.

As to getting anything out of CME, i cant see this being the case, from what I understood from the forum posts is that most of the accusations are aimed at him personally.  Using reference to his other companies as he has property or stock that could be liquidated to pay back investors money owed.  As this case is based on MMOGULS, someone could come in and take control of that, but as for someone coming in to take control of CME, when the case is primarily MMOGULS (that's what they invested there money in) I cant see why someone would come in and control CME, because of a dispute with MMOGULS.

As I see it saying someone is not good enough to run one company your invested in, doesnt give you any real say how he runs another company, all you can do anything about is the company you have invested in, and in this case this is MMOGULS.  Correct me if I am wrong, but it doesnt seem possible to force control over 6-7 other companies or subsiduries of a company, when the argument is only against one company, even if this guy runs them all.  But hey I know crap all about the US legal system so it would be nice if someone could explain how this could happen.

Yellowperil,

While it's not so easy to do, it can be done. See some new uploaded documents here. The first one is Robert McKell's reply to memorandum of points. Fromt here, you can follow the money and see that his investor deal is tied to both MMOGULS and CME. Because the two companies are tethered together for the success of MMOGULS, it is in the plaintiff’s best interest to control 1) the company the money goes into (Garvick), 2) the company that is producing the moneymaker (CME) and 3) the company that is going to make continued money thereafter (MMOGULS). The McKell’s were promised revenue from both CME & MMOGULS in addition to CME Stock.

Therefore, to protect his investment, he needs to protect all three companies.

On the tail end of that upload is the McKell response to the previously filed documents on the 9th? And the Whiting response to the McKell’s arguments.

I am going to update the other cases, once I find that thread. Of interest is the Ann Colson case, which is ripe with long torrid affairs, polygamy with up to 5 wives! And the final Judgment in the case. Stay tuned!
 

Interesting read, problem now seems to be that they need proof, not hearsay.

I see they also take into consideration that they are investors only, and have no signed documents of any control of the money.

I really don't see this going very far.  If there is no proof for the court to see then the court case will fail, also other possible things may turn up that have a big impact on the court, Jenson is a big one, and if its proven that money wasnt released by him then GW could easily say the money that was diverted was for the health of the company and not fraud.  Again I am sure this is all gonna be interesting, but if they are taking on whiting with just hearsay and no proof, I cant see them getting much out of the court case, using statements about how badly he runs other companies may just fall of deaf ears, I noticed they are trying to tie up both MMOGULS and CME in the court case, but again I think its gonna be hard to pull the court case off, to many blanks need to be filled in, and if there is no proof (physical) then its all just going to be hearsay.  It doesnt matter if GW is guilty or not, without the proof no judge is going to listen to hearsay and pass judgement someone is guilty just from that.

What would be interesting is that if this goes badly for the prosecution, could the defence file against them in a counter sue or whatever.??????

If this case were like the others, I might agree.

But there is a big difference: for whatever reason, GW was outmaneuvered in Utah, and CME/MMOGULS have already been placed in receivership.

The uphill climb is now on GW, not the plaintiffs, to either get the Utah order blocked by AZ, or to appeal in Utah. Based on my understanding now of "full faith and credit", I think the first is very hard since I don't think he can argue the merits of the case in AZ. This is why he is trying to make a "fraud upon the court" argument, perhaps opening the door to arguing the facts.

What the receivership means for CME, assuming it is enforced, is as yet unknown. But it takes full control away from GW/Jenson/Hensley, for better or for worse.

Hmm, if AZ does get in the middle of this by blocking it, it may be headed for the Federal courts.