Originally posted by drbaltazar

Originally posted by TheStarheart

Originally posted by drbaltazar

Originally posted by Redline65

I just have to say... what took them so long? Seems like they should have done this within six months after DDO launched.

bingo you said exactly my thinking

 

revoking the licensing, they had no lawsuit until Atari tried to screw them over lol.

he meant turbine should have sued atari 6 month after lunch not 2 or 3 years after.

I'm aware, but if you read the article they renewed an agreement to 2016, than then "But Turbine claimed that Atari, while collecting royalty payments, enacted a termination strategy in November 2008 that would seek to end the contract between the two companies."

That's when they began setting up the lawsuit, when Atari tried to get out of the contract.

Turbine should just change the name of the game. Part of the reason it flopped is that it bore little resemblance to the actual game of D&D, instead going the action RPG route (sort of like Conan did), thus disappointing basically every D&D player to try it (or close to it), negating the whole point of the license.

(Not unlike how they took Lord of the Rings and hooked it up to a generic EQ clone which sucked all the life out of Tolkien's world. Though it's pretty to look at)

Originally posted by TheStarheart

Originally posted by drbaltazar

Originally posted by TheStarheart

Originally posted by drbaltazar

Originally posted by Redline65

I just have to say... what took them so long? Seems like they should have done this within six months after DDO launched.

bingo you said exactly my thinking

 

revoking the licensing, they had no lawsuit until Atari tried to screw them over lol.

he meant turbine should have sued atari 6 month after lunch not 2 or 3 years after.

 

I'm aware, but if you read the article they renewed an agreement to 2016, than then "But Turbine claimed that Atari, while collecting royalty payments, enacted a termination strategy in November 2008 that would seek to end the contract between the two companies."

That's when they began setting up the lawsuit, when Atari tried to get out of the contract.

I haven't read it all properly so I may make a couple of errors here (please feel free to correct if you find any)
This is what the filing says (the complaint)

1/ Turbine Developed DDO:Stormreach under license from Atari - as a part of that deal Atari was to be the Publisher and Distributer.
 

2/ As the release of DDO:Stormreach approached - Atari had not properly marketed the game and this had the potential to cost Turbine money on lost revenue.  So Turbine asked Atari if they could market the game themselves?  Atari agreed (admitting they had not done their job really) but retained the publishing and distribution rights in Europe.
-Remember - Tubine may have developed the game - but Atari have sole right to distribute under the license terms.
An amendment to those terms was agreed called Amendment Number Four.
 

3/ Atari then still failed to Distribute and Market the game properly in Europe.
The issue here is that Turbine can't make money if Atari don't sell the game.  And they won't sell the game if Atari don't get it on the shelf and allow people to buy it!
(We have seen this before by the way.  SOE did exactly the same thing with Pirates of the Burning Sea - only in that case FLS clearly didn't set any proper benchmarks so they couldn't take action?)
In addition, Atari failed to give Turbine their cut (the royalties) of the copies they did sell.  They even admitted this and a 'payment plan' was put in place which Atari defaulted on.  (Worrying for Cryptic?)
 

4/ Earlier this year, Turbine asked if maybe a new revenue model might work?  They stated moving away from a Subscription based game to a Free to Play game (with Micro Transactions?).  This 'new game' was to be called DDO: Unlimited (for short)
Turbine cannot do that without permission since it essentially will destroy sales for DDO:Stormreach.
Atari agreed, and as part of the deal and the new business model rather than Atari paying Turbine royalties - Turbine now pay Atari royalties (so the cash flow direction is reversed).
The license was extended to 2016 and as a show of good faith Turbine payed Atari some 'future royalties' (this is money that hasn't been collected yet - but they expect to collect)
This was called Ammendment Number Five.

All above board so far.  The only problem is Atari's poor performance of Marketing and Distribution...

However... while negotiating Amendment Number Five Atari was doing secret deals behind Turbine's back...
Atari was developing its own version of D&D Online.
It couldn't market this version while the Agreement with Turbine was in place.
So, it was doing an audit to attempt to find an excuse to break the deal with Turbine and cancel the license agreement!
Then Atari could have released its own version of D&D Online.
The big problem here is that Atari was still making agreements with Turbine even while they were planning to break those deals.
AND they were accepting money (future royalties) from Turbine at the same time despite the fact they knew they intended to break the deal and there would be no royalties if their plan worked.
This is Fraud territory.
If Atari never intended to continue with Turbine then they should never have even negotiated Amendment Number Five.

By negotiating Amendment Number Five, Turbine can now go to court and say “we did everything we were supposed to do – and the reason they didn't is because they intended to screw us all along!”
They can argue that this is why Atari never marketed the game – because they wanted it to fail!
That may or may not be true – but based on what Atari has done it could certainly be made to look that way?
Atari would have been far better to simply say “We will NOT support DDO:Unlimited and if DDO:Stormreach fails that is because it is a crap game which YOU (Turbine) made.”
Then waited for Turbine to admit defeat and pull out.

Had they done that Turbine would have the job of proving that Atari did not market the game properly and that the game would have sold better if Atari had marketed it better.
That might have been hard to do.
Atari could call lots of MMO CEOs who would say how hard it is to market and launch an MMO.
Atari could have claimed they were just limiting their exposure (to a failure) by not printing hundreds of thousands of boxes (which they could never sell)?

But now, Turbine can produce a semi plausible scenario showing why Atari might have wanted to screw them over.

What will be interesting is if Turbine manage to get hold of internal memos from Atari (disclosure?) – particularly if Atari is doing this sort of shady business with other 'partners' too.

A very BIG bucket of popcorn might be needed?

The entity currently known as Atari is a horrifying Frankenstein amalgamation of past-their-prime publishers and studios.

If I mention the names Infogrames or IESA, you can probably think back and recall hearing the constant near-bankruptcy news posts on the major gaming sites (despite appearances, they are really not in very much better shape today).  After closely reading some of Atari's shareholder briefings from that era, a realization came upon me.  The people at the helm there are profoundly incompetent.  I don't say that lightly.  In fact, there is no other publisher in the industry whose leaders I would really use that descriptor on.  Yes, there are other publishers which are in even more dire straits, but they at least play their weak hands as best they can.

Atari, on the other hand, keeps taking desperate stabs at the same failed strategy: a combination of hackneyed cost-cutting measures, divestment of the few remaining real assets they have (their IP's, though they have very few lucrative ones left), and acquisition of "up and coming" game studios.  If these shmoes are going to save their sinking ship, they will need to be a lot bolder than that and hope for the best.  A big bet probably won't work, but if you're at the helm of something like Atari, simply being a gambling man is the best way to go.

Anyhow, I think they've snared the lion when it comes to Turbine.  A lot of you think Turbine is a second-stringer, but it's really not smart to underestimate them.  As far as private game studios go, they're probably the one you'd least want to piss off.  They're by far the largest private game development house and can bring to bear the greatest amount of resources in a legal battle.  They also have some canny leaders.  Then again, about all Atari is good at these days is being a pack of sharks, and they will likely bite back hard before they go down.

So the weakened, pathetic Atari versus a private dev house.  I think the only thing certain on this one is that both are going to show their teeth.  This will probably get both ugly and entertaining.

Originally posted by Kurush

The entity currently known as Atari is a horrifying Frankenstein amalgamation of past-their-prime publishers and studios.

...The people at the helm there are profoundly incompetent.  I don't say that lightly.  In fact, there is no other publisher in the industry whose leaders I would really use that descriptor on.  Yes, there are other publishers which are in even more dire straits, but they at least play their weak hands as best they can.

Atari, on the other hand, keeps taking desperate stabs at the same failed strategy: a combination of hackneyed cost-cutting measures, divestment of the few remaining real assets they have (their IP's, though they have very few lucrative ones left), and acquisition of "up and coming" game studios.  ...

 

Turbine apparently feels the same.

This is one of my favorite bits from the filing:

44. Such good-faith cooperation has been met with nothing short of complete
intransigence on the part of Atari. Despite the fact that Turbine opened its books for Atari’s
auditor to examine over multiple weeks at Turbine’s offices and readily provided written
responses to an onerous number of questions-many irrelevant and exposing a stark lack of
knowledge about online games, their cost structure, and the MMO industry-raised by Atari and
its auditor, Atari continues to make threats against Turbine based on the false premise that
Turbine is withholding information and royalties. Atari has now gone so far as to premise a
“notice of breach of contract” against Turbine on this imaginary scenario.

 Heh heh.  :-D

Originally posted by Varsheva

Only Turbine and Atari could take what should have been a "slam dunk" with DDO and build the mediocre game that it is. They deserve each other.

Second.

Well Turbine needs money for their new mmo so it is easier to take this route than actually have to spend time, money and effort to make a good mmo for once. Lotro wasn't that great and DDO is horrible. Why companies keep on giving Turbine great ips and letting them destroy the goodness of it is mind boggling. 

If Turbine was paying royalties in advance and atari was collecting them knowing full well that they were not going to do what was required to earn those royalties yea that seems like fraud.  But it seems a bit peculiar that Turbine was paying "future royalties" in the first place.  Why no explanation for this?  Why would a company ever pay millions of dollars in advance?  That kind of money is usually paid when it becomes due or within 30 to 60 days.  Never in advance. 

Originally posted by svann

If Turbine was paying royalties in advance and atari was collecting them knowing full well that they were not going to do what was required to earn those royalties yea that seems like fraud.  But it seems a bit peculiar that Turbine was paying "future royalties" in the first place.  Why no explanation for this?  Why would a company ever pay millions of dollars in advance?  That kind of money is usually paid when it becomes due or within 30 to 60 days.  Never in advance. 

It was a 'good will' payment.  It says so in the court document.  And it was hundreds of thousands only.

Why would they do that?

Probably to show Atari that they had faith in their own idea (F2P with Micro Transactions) and that they were so confident they could make it work that they were prepared to 'put their money where their mouth is'.

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by svann

If Turbine was paying royalties in advance and atari was collecting them knowing full well that they were not going to do what was required to earn those royalties yea that seems like fraud.  But it seems a bit peculiar that Turbine was paying "future royalties" in the first place.  Why no explanation for this?  Why would a company ever pay millions of dollars in advance?  That kind of money is usually paid when it becomes due or within 30 to 60 days.  Never in advance. 

It was a 'good will' payment.  It says so in the court document.  And it was hundreds of thousands only.

Why would they do that?

Probably to show Atari that they had faith in their own idea (F2P with Micro Transactions) and that they were so confident they could make it work that they were prepared to 'put their money where their mouth is'.

This is exactly true, and that's why Atari said they'd continue their deal with the D&D IP until 2016, while conveniently attempting to screw them over at the same time. Really dumb business tactic.

Originally posted by TheStarheart

 ...

This is exactly true, and that's why Atari said they'd continue their deal with the D&D IP until 2016, while conveniently attempting to screw them over at the same time. Really dumb business tactic.

I have worked with people who (try to) do business that way.  For the most part they are middle manager types who think they are 'clever'.
In business I find that honesty is respected - even if you are a 'hardarse'. 

Looks like Atari tried to be 'clever' and now they are facing what could be a brand destroying lawsuit - even if they win.
 

Originally posted by hoopty

You know maybe after seeing so much "Sues" on these forums lately..I wonder if some developer will make a game.How to screw your own neighbor..

Um they did :) its called Eve-Online

Originally posted by trancejeremy

Turbine should just change the name of the game. Part of the reason it flopped is that it bore little resemblance to the actual game of D&D, instead going the action RPG route (sort of like Conan did), thus disappointing basically every D&D player to try it (or close to it), negating the whole point of the license.

(Not unlike how they took Lord of the Rings and hooked it up to a generic EQ clone which sucked all the life out of Tolkien's world. Though it's pretty to look at)

Part of the reason as to "why it flopped" is because Artri did not hold up any part of the deal. This included Advertising, Customer support, Distribution and marketing. Turbine had to pick up the ball AND still pay Arti. That money had to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is development resources.

Had Turbine been left to Develop the game, instead of do EVERYTHING including marketing and advertising (Direct impact to adoption). It may have had more succes.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Well Turbine needs money for their new mmo so it is easier to take this route than actually have to spend time, money and effort to make a good mmo for once. Lotro wasn't that great and DDO is horrible. Why companies keep on giving Turbine great ips and letting them destroy the goodness of it is mind boggling. 

Turbine is fine. Turbine also makes great online games. You dont have to agree personally. To say they are not an excellent company, is just pure jadedness and ignorance along the lines Atari has shown.

This sucks on so many levels.  

It would be nice to see what Turbine does with DDO, even though I am not a fan of RMT/Subscription based games.  Maybe they find the right combination to make the two work? 

If this somehow affects Mythic and their upcoming games [star trek, never winter nights and somehow champions] I will be very sad. 

/palm 

Yeah, this is definitely associated with Atari shopping around (mainly with Cryptic) developers to produce a purported Neverwinter Nights MMO. That's what the rumor mills are spinning right now.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Well Turbine needs money for their new mmo so it is easier to take this route than actually have to spend time, money and effort to make a good mmo for once. Lotro wasn't that great and DDO is horrible. Why companies keep on giving Turbine great ips and letting them destroy the goodness of it is mind boggling. 

mm i doubt very much it will go smoothly for turbine mark my word.if they win this ever you can call em god 

Originally posted by RexNebular

Gamasutra article on the same topic:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=24997

 

MMO developer Turbine this week sued game publisher Atari for breach of contract, fraud, and other counts, accusing the publisher of purposely pulling back support of Turbine-operated Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach in favor of a forthcoming internally-developed D&D MMO.
 

So it's true after all.

If that is true I hope Atari wins, heh. Turbine is a good company, but this existing DDO is just booooring.

Originally posted by Yunbei

Originally posted by RexNebular

Gamasutra article on the same topic:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=24997

 

MMO developer Turbine this week sued game publisher Atari for breach of contract, fraud, and other counts, accusing the publisher of purposely pulling back support of Turbine-operated Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach in favor of a forthcoming internally-developed D&D MMO.
 

So it's true after all.

 

If that is true I hope Atari wins, heh. Turbine is a good company, but this existing DDO is just booooring.

lol, I definitely hope for the opposite based on the way Atari conducts themselves in a business setting.

Originally posted by trancejeremy

Turbine should just change the name of the game. Part of the reason it flopped is that it bore little resemblance to the actual game of D&D, instead going the action RPG route (sort of like Conan did), thus disappointing basically every D&D player to try it (or close to it), negating the whole point of the license.

(Not unlike how they took Lord of the Rings and hooked it up to a generic EQ clone which sucked all the life out of Tolkien's world. Though it's pretty to look at)

Yeah and nobody groups or talks in LOTRO either. (Did i say it right?)