Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Example would be FFXIV.

---

Do you give as example unreleased game? Seriously, please...

 

i have to agree there, i look forward to FFXIV myself but all those popping in this thread every fifth post with "but haven't you all heard about FFXIV" while the info is still vague at best are frankly quite annoying and make themselves look stupid.

---

Originally posted by Quale

What I'm saying is: Sandbox does not equal no design. In fact, it's probably the opposite.

---

Originally posted by Fkinglinux

  I don't quite understand it myself, there is a fairly large niche of players who want a skill oriented sandbox style game. Yet, all the major titles in this department are from small developers. I mean this formula is tried and tested, some of the first 2 mmos , Asherons Call and Ultima Online were both classless and pretty sandboxy, also both are still alive, and maybe even kicking. Why won't any of the bigger name MMO developers take on this challenge, instead of leaving our hopes in the hands of games such as Mortal Online and Darkfall?(Not saying there is anything wrong with those games).

Darkfall is as long macro 24/7 and exploits are aloud(most doing it and are not banned ) with magic been OP a class game.

There is not much freedom in Darkfall and with all the cheating and devs fix it by dumbdown the game i say Darkfall is slowly become a themepark class game.

I still play it but my limits almost have reach a lvl where i dont tolerate any more EZmode patches by devs and make it a walk in the park with no sweat:(

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by Quale

 

What I'm saying is: Sandbox does not equal no design. In fact, it's probably the opposite.

---

Uh? How so? What is the 'opposite' of game design, please?

 

It's a different kind of game design.

Sandbox requires more balance overall, because it's more wide open and with more features that intermingle. This makes it just as hard to make, just as "design heavy" as a themepark game design. In fact, in the big picture, sandbox games are much harder to design properly. That's why the big companies don't want to make them. They are very hard to make without having all kinds of problems, ala UO (who actually did a marvelous job except for a few things).

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by Quale

 

What I'm saying is: Sandbox does not equal no design. In fact, it's probably the opposite.

---

Uh? How so? What is the 'opposite' of game design, please?

 

Opposite of no design = Lots of design. (Sand)

The box is just a concept. "Anyone" Can make a sandbox. The amount and quality of the sand is the hard part.

Simply put: Making a good sandbox is alot harder than making a themepark.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Gdemami

Do you give as example unreleased game? Seriously, please...

 

And the problem with that is..? It's still an example of a themepark and sandbox mixed together. How well will it work? I don't know, and I don't think it even matters. What matters is their approach which I feel is correct.

All MMOs are sandbox and themepark mixed together. No MMO has ever been completely one or the other. Not only is it not black and whote it goes beyond shades of grey. The MMOverse has colors. People need to learn to deal with that and get beyond the labels.

Classless predominantly sandbox sytems are difficult to code, expensive to implement, and unpopular with the general public. Tpo have any level of replayability they need to be incredibly complex. .Companies don't make products that guarantee a low return on, or loss of,  their investment. It really is that simple.

I expect the reason that the classless, skill-based characters have gone away is do to unpredictability.

In  skill-based game, there is nothing to stop players from making jack-of-all-0trade toons that are kind of gimped for their "level". I know I did it in Ultima....i wanted to do a little bit of everything, which is why i love skill-based games.

However, as a developer, how do you plan content for players who, at equal levels, can have have a vastly different ability set? Either you tone it down, and focused players are bored...or you ramp it up, and people like me get left behind.

With so much being quest-driven now....i can see why devs are avoiding it....to i do miss it.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Square-Enix is attempting to revive sandbox type MMO's with their new MMO FFXIV. If it'll be successful, you all should expect to see more sandbox MMO's in the future too (or at least a mix of the 2 types)-- since the pattern of MMO business is to copy the successful MMO's and not try to make up anything new, so expect to see many FFXIV clones in the future if it sells well.

Please cite your information, AFAIK Square hasnt released any details about FFXIV's gameplay features.

---

Originally posted by Quale
 
Opposite of no design = Lots of design. (Sand)
 
The box is just a concept. "Anyone" Can make a sandbox. The amount and quality of the sand is the hard part.
Simply put: Making a good sandbox is alot harder than making a themepark.

---

Do you even have an idea what game design is?

You can start on wiki...

---

Originally posted by zymurgeist

All MMOs are sandbox and themepark mixed together.

---

No game is mix of sandbox and themepark because they are excluding each other.

Sandbox is player driven.
Themepark is predetermined.

Devs have a hard enough time balancing cookie-cutter games where practically every aspect of a player's development is pre-planned and controlled, so I can see devs avoiding a more open class structure due to cost and laziness. But if Guildwars can do a pretty good job and not even charge a monthly fee, I don't see why others can't even try.

It shouldn't be so difficult to let players have even small amounts of freedom like being able to choose what armor and weapons they want to use, and balance it with things like movement and casting penalties. Why can't I be a rogue character with a hammer or spear, or a healer who uses a bow or pbaoe fire magic? Saying it doesn't fit the lore is a cop-out in my mind. I understand its hard to balance, but thats what betas are for.

I am just so sick of the cookie cutter systems where every class is a carbon copy of each other from skills to gear. 'Lets grind for 8 months so I can be exactly the same as everyone else! woohoo!'

My other issue is the static worlds. If you are going to have things like set keeps to fight over or static towns, at least allow guilds to upgrade them and add their own touch if they can't entirely build their own. Just allow players to have some sort of impact on the world beyond simply having the base/town simply switch banners.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Fkinglinux

  I don't quite understand it myself, there is a fairly large niche of players who want a skill oriented sandbox style game. Yet, all the major titles in this department are from small developers. I mean this formula is tried and tested, some of the first 2 mmos , Asherons Call and Ultima Online were both classless and pretty sandboxy, also both are still alive, and maybe even kicking. Why won't any of the bigger name MMO developers take on this challenge, instead of leaving our hopes in the hands of games such as Mortal Online and Darkfall?(Not saying there is anything wrong with those games).

 

Because there is no such large niche of players. UO never reached the popularly of even EQ, and would be considered niche today.

Most people like more directed content. Just look at the popularity of WOW & Aion.

 

Sadly this is true. A lot more people like to watch sports than play them too.

Have to disagree here. It isn't true in that at the time UO launched MMO gaming was the select province of the pencil and paper gaming nerd herd, of which I was a card carrying member. There just weren't that many people turned on to MMO gaming at that time. WoW brought a ton of RTS gaming folks into the MMO genre. ***severe opinion incoming*** Most of the RTS crowd like quick gameplay that isn't too involved and one in which they can "win". "Winning" and/or end-game wasn't an idea associated with MMOs prior to this.***

The only thing I could say is "true" about this is that we haven't to date had a major, AAA studio put forth a solid sandbox effort. We've had one attempt and then abort one (SOE with SWG) however it should be noted that they never really tried to make it succeed and instead worried about ways to change totally what they had from day 1. We've also had a few attempts by indy or minor studios, some of which turned out pretty darn decent (EvE).

But yeah, it would be very nice to see a sandbox game with the backing (money) of a major studio would look like. One that actually had a team working to improve it as it grew as opposed trying to dismantle it. Wouldn't hurt considering the sea of AAA themeparks out there to throw an AAA island in here and there.

 

You are wrong. UO is released in Sep 1997 and EQ in Mar 1999. EQ became more popular than UO in a very short time. Those are the only major choices of MMOs at that time. It is pretty clear that UO is not able to capture EQ's market of players and that EQ has a much bigger market than UO.

 

I think it would be fair to say that in 1997 there were a SIGNIFICANTLY lot less people with access to the internet and who played computers games generally.

Given that population estimates give 70 million internet users WORLDWIDE (1.7%) in 1997 and by 1999 it's 248 millions (4.1%) and given the fancier graphics, better hardware available etc etc it's not that hard to see why EQ did better than UO.

Now take those figures and look at today, by June this year it is estimated that there are 1,669 millions (24.7%) with access to the net, it's hardly fair in my opinion to base UO and earlier sandbox games' subs against what is available now.

My two pennies worth.

Originally posted by protoroc

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Square-Enix is attempting to revive sandbox type MMO's with their new MMO FFXIV. If it'll be successful, you all should expect to see more sandbox MMO's in the future too (or at least a mix of the 2 types)-- since the pattern of MMO business is to copy the successful MMO's and not try to make up anything new, so expect to see many FFXIV clones in the future if it sells well.

 

Please cite your information, AFAIK Square hasnt released any details about FFXIV's gameplay features.

www.ffxivcore.com/index.php

Hate to break it to you, but large scale sandbox with open PVP, is indeed a niche- albeit a very vocal niche. Someone mentioned SWG pre-CU having 300k+ players in it's time. I'll remind you, that much of those numbers, was because of the IP, and not with it being "sandbox". That is why they changed it when they saw what people REALLY wanted- something ala WoW.

Dev studios large and small, cannot survive without venture capital. Venture capitalists want to know when they are going to make their profit, above all. Most will not care if it gives a small number of people their desired game. They care if those small numbers eventually grow to larger numbers, ala EvE, because this means more profit on their investment. However, since this is usually the unlikely scenerio with most mmos, the deeper pockets, who finance the larger studios, go for a tried and true moneymaker- the WoW clone. Only AFTER a niche game has become profitable enough, usually over time, will it attract the deeper pockets. This is what we are seeing with EvE now. It took them years to get noticed by the big boys.

No matter what you may wish for, a dev studio is still a business. You don't go into business unless you want to make as much money as you can. Investors also want to make as much money as they can. No one cares about your hobby until you give them money for it. This is what the sandbox crowd often forgets (I'm a sandbox person myself, but still am bright enough to understand it). The major studios don't however and that is why they go for themeparks over sandbox 100% of the time.

It may seem cold and heartless and reek of greed, but business is business.

What AAA developer can make a decent MMO of any type? Who out there has made a game that can sustain 200K subs a year after launch? Not many. Forget about drawing in 500k or more.

Now you ask why no one makes a sandbox? The developers out there have no clue how to make a MMO of any type. No one has a clue except Blizzard. Its a real shame.

Originally posted by TheNitewolf

 

i have to agree there, i look forward to FFXIV myself but all those popping in this thread every fifth post with "but haven't you all heard about FFXIV" while the info is still vague at best are frankly quite annoying and make themselves look stupid.

I'm not giving any specific examples. I'm using the info we have to make my point. 

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by Quale
 
Opposite of no design = Lots of design. (Sand)
 
The box is just a concept. "Anyone" Can make a sandbox. The amount and quality of the sand is the hard part.
Simply put: Making a good sandbox is alot harder than making a themepark.

---

 

Do you even have an idea what game design is?

You can start on wiki...
 

I usually don't respond to your kind, but I made the mistake of thinking you asked because you actually didn't understand what my post said right there. Now I know different, you can go on being unpleasant and dim alone ;)

Blizzards as-of-yet unnamed new MMO will be a sandbox, and like they did with WoW and the themepark model, they will succeed. Mark my words, if anyone has the ability (and cash) its them.

Think about it.

Originally posted by Kainis

Hate to break it to you, but large scale sandbox with open PVP, is indeed a niche- albeit a very vocal niche. Someone mentioned SWG pre-CU having 300k+ players in it's time. I'll remind you, that much of those numbers, was because of the IP, and not with it being "sandbox". That is why they changed it when they saw what people REALLY wanted- something ala WoW.

Dev studios large and small, cannot survive without venture capital. Venture capitalists want to know when they are going to make their profit, above all. Most will not care if it gives a small number of people their desired game. They care if those small numbers eventually grow to larger numbers, ala EvE, because this means more profit on their investment. However, since this is usually the unlikely scenerio with most mmos, the deeper pockets, who finance the larger studios, go for a tried and true moneymaker- the WoW clone. Only AFTER a niche game has become profitable enough, usually over time, will it attract the deeper pockets. This is what we are seeing with EvE now. It took them years to get noticed by the big boys.

No matter what you may wish for, a dev studio is still a business. You don't go into business unless you want to make as much money as you can. Investors also want to make as much money as they can. No one cares about your hobby until you give them money for it. This is what the sandbox crowd often forgets (I'm a sandbox person myself, but still am bright enough to understand it). The major studios don't however and that is why they go for themeparks over sandbox 100% of the time.

It may seem cold and heartless and reek of greed, but business is business.

Although now that EvE has been noticed, we may see a little more interest.

Originally posted by Azureal

Blizzards as-of-yet unnamed new MMO will be a sandbox, and like they did with WoW and the themepark model, they will succeed. Mark my words, if anyone has the ability (and cash) its them.

 

Think about it.

This time they don't have any game to steal all their ideas from though, so we'll see how that'll work.