I don't quite understand it myself, there is a fairly large niche of players who want a skill oriented sandbox style game. Yet, all the major titles in this department are from small developers. I mean this formula is tried and tested, some of the first 2 mmos , Asherons Call and Ultima Online were both classless and pretty sandboxy, also both are still alive, and maybe even kicking. Why won't any of the bigger name MMO developers take on this challenge, instead of leaving our hopes in the hands of games such as Mortal Online and Darkfall?(Not saying there is anything wrong with those games).

because they all have sand in their vaginas. and that sand is made out of fear.

 eve, earthrise, champions(not really sandbox), darkfall, mortal

Originally posted by GetViolated

 eve, earthrise, champions(not really sandbox), darkfall, mortal

champions is level based and also not sandbox, i mentioned major developers. TBH I would play EVE except I don't care for spaceships and feel that everyone already has too much of a headstart.

The answer to the question is easy.  It would be a niche game that would have to be done perfectly to have any chance at survival in this market.  The odds of making a profit are slim.  Developers exist to make money entertaining you, not to entertain you at their expense.  I wouldn't play such a game and there are millions like me that like the general class/quest aspects of MMOs.

You know what would be nice, even if games continue to be made with classes, is if a player coudn't hover their mouse over you or pull up your paper doll and view your class.

It would also be nice if you couldn't look at what someone was wearing or wielding and know what class they are.

Can  you imagine in PvP not knowing what class someone was, seeing a robed character thinking them a caster, only to find they are wearing the robes over heavy armor, while they whip out their Great Sword and beat you down?

Originally posted by Skooma2

The answer to the question is easy.  It would be a niche game that would have to be done perfectly to have any chance at survival in this market.  The odds of making a profit are slim.  Developers exist to make money entertaining you, not to entertain you at their expense.  I wouldn't play such a game and there are millions like me that like the general class/quest aspects of MMOs.

While I can see your point, I think the niche is larger than you may believe. Look at all the followers of games like Darkfall and Mortal Online, that are just hoping they are done right.

Originally posted by Emeraq

You know what would be nice, even if games continue to be made with classes, is if a player coudn't hover their mouse over you or pull up your paper doll and view your class.

It would also be nice if you couldn't look at what someone was wearing or wielding and know what class they are.

 

Can  you imagine in PvP not knowing what class someone was, seeing a robed character thinking them a caster, only to find they are wearing the robes over heavy armor, while they whip out their Great Sword and beat you down?

That was what made Ultima so great :P

my guess is that it has to do with investors.  Seems sandbox mmos are more of a risk and with the high cost of development a lot of times it probably just seems easier to go with what they know people already want.  I really would like to see more sand box mmos though in addition to more themeparked types.  More good games period :D     Sometimes I just really want to be able to create something myself in a game or decide something new that would be fun. Most of the games I've played don't really allow that at all.  Just throw me some tools, give me an area to work in and I'll have a blast! I used to love playing the console games that had map editors.  Heck, I spent more time designing my own custom multiplayer maps in Timesplitters than I did actually playing lol.

Originally posted by Fkinglinux

Originally posted by GetViolated

 eve, earthrise, champions(not really sandbox), darkfall, mortal

 

champions is level based and also not sandbox, i mentioned major developers. TBH I would play EVE except I don't care for spaceships ( a valid complaint) and feel that everyone already has too much of a headstart. (totally incorrect)

Don't shortchange yourself an excellent sandbox experience over your second concern, its just not true.

The market has shown it prefers games with classes and levels, (draws the most subs) so thats what the big houses are going to make.

Everyone is trying to make another WoW, so they are trying to make the games appeal to as many people as they can. This is merely the first wave of MMOs since WoW, meaning those whose development began after WoW became popular, so it's every big company's first try at unseating 'the king'. After they figure out they aren't going to do it, they will realize that by spending less money developing the game and advertising they can make a really good game that maybe only appeals to sandbox fanatics or PvPers. By specializing they will be able to make a far better game, they just have to learn to keep their sights a little lower than #1.

Originally posted by Fkinglinux

  I don't quite understand it myself, there is a fairly large niche of players who want a skill oriented sandbox style game. Yet, all the major titles in this department are from small developers. I mean this formula is tried and tested, some of the first 2 mmos , Asherons Call and Ultima Online were both classless and pretty sandboxy, also both are still alive, and maybe even kicking. Why won't any of the bigger name MMO developers take on this challenge, instead of leaving our hopes in the hands of games such as Mortal Online and Darkfall?(Not saying there is anything wrong with those games).

Always the same answer,

They are greedy bastards and want to make millions like WoW.

So they wont go out of there way for a few thousand subs, they want a million subs.

I hope one day a big company will fund this, but its a dream at this point.

 One thing is Eve is slowly gaining subscriptions while most game are losing them. Granted Eve has like 200-400k subs.  I know Wow has grown as well but other then those two has there been a recent mmo that is gaining subs for a while?

It does not help that most "sandboxs" have not sold well.   Some of it has to do with only small companies can make these games and small companies are not very good at providing polished products.    Sadly Shadowbane was so wonderful an experiance I am forever cursed with the joy of a having played a good sandbox game. Its like knowing you will never get that same level of enjoyment back again for a while.   If I just started playing MMOs  with Wow. I would tell you all how bad Sandbox games are simply because recent sanbox titles have been crap. 

Originally posted by Fkinglinux

  I don't quite understand it myself, there is a fairly large niche of players who want a skill oriented sandbox style game. Yet, all the major titles in this department are from small developers. I mean this formula is tried and tested, some of the first 2 mmos , Asherons Call and Ultima Online were both classless and pretty sandboxy, also both are still alive, and maybe even kicking. Why won't any of the bigger name MMO developers take on this challenge, instead of leaving our hopes in the hands of games such as Mortal Online and Darkfall?(Not saying there is anything wrong with those games).

Because there is no such large niche of players. UO never reached the popularly of even EQ, and would be considered niche today.

Most people like more directed content. Just look at the popularity of WOW & Aion.

It is really unfair to say that a more sandbox style game would be niche.  There really has not been an example of a well made sandbox since UO and that is a 2D graphics game.  Everything that has tried to be sandbox since then was delivered in such terrible shape there was almost no way for it to test the potential of a sandbox game.

Beyond that, I have to think they just isn't enough talent in the industry that could pull off a good sandbox game.  Not many companies should or would try to without the proper leadership behind the project. 

Maybe it's from hanging out at MMORPG.com too long, but I do get the impression there's enough players who want a Sandbox game that it could survive.

Very much not the type of gmae I personally enjoy, but it could probably succeed.

We have no idea what a AAA dev house can do with a sandbox game. all we know is a small developer like CCP can make a good game and it actually appeals to enough people to make a nice profit.

Maybe one of the big boys will give us a sandbox to mess with.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Fkinglinux

  I don't quite understand it myself, there is a fairly large niche of players who want a skill oriented sandbox style game. Yet, all the major titles in this department are from small developers. I mean this formula is tried and tested, some of the first 2 mmos , Asherons Call and Ultima Online were both classless and pretty sandboxy, also both are still alive, and maybe even kicking. Why won't any of the bigger name MMO developers take on this challenge, instead of leaving our hopes in the hands of games such as Mortal Online and Darkfall?(Not saying there is anything wrong with those games).

 

Because there is no such large niche of players. UO never reached the popularly of even EQ, and would be considered niche today.

Most people like more directed content. Just look at the popularity of WOW & Aion.

Sadly this is true. A lot more people like to watch sports than play them too.

As others have mentioned, it's because most of the big developers want to swing for the fences and not produce something that will be a niche game at best.  There may be quite a lot of people who like the idea of a sandbox game, but MMO players like so many different things, it works like this:

A Sandbox game! (lots of players)

Fantasy or sci-fi or other - you just lost a third or more whatever you choose, based on genre interest

Classless or classes - just lost a few more

heavy PVP or no? - you just lost some more

heavy grouping element or mostly solo - more gone

etc, etc, etc

Final result = niche.

Players like the idea of a sandbox game, but any particular sandbox game has yet to draw a massive amount of players (though some like EVE have done quite well)

I would also say there's probably a big enough sandbox base for the big boys to try there hand at it, who knows maybe blizzards new game is a sandbox