Originally posted by nate1980 

Now let's use our brains for a moment. Blizzard makes more money than most corporations do in a year. They can afford to hire the best talent, and release polished expansions. I would argue because of this money, they should be able to offer us more for less, but that's another post entirely. But as for Blizzard not having ideas of their own or the fact that they borrow from other MMO's, this is not a bad thing at all. First off, Blizzard can afford to have their own ideas, and they do. Second of all, there isn't a whole lot of ideas or features that hasn't been thought of already. Third of all, it is a sign of intelligence to recognize a good feature in your competition and adopt it. There are no rules saying you must thrive off your own ideas, or fail. If that was the case, we would have monopolies everywhere and we'd be paying out the ass for everything.

A mostly excellent post, Nate. I do disagree about the race/class combos. That's just a matter of switching a few toggles and should have been put in a patch, not classed as content for an expansion.

The most amazing thing about WoW's success is that Blizzard could (if they had the manpower and hardware) afford to put out a new AAA MMORPG each year. That is just scary.

Is this 5-year old argument still going on?

Evolve, people. Evolve.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Daffid011

On the flip side forum goes here are far to quick to praise other companies for things that should not be praised.  Such as anything in warhammer.  Calling public quests and the tome of knowledge innovation is such a double standard.  Both of those existed in other games in various different ways. 

The Tome, yes, but I don't think PQs did. If so, in what games?

Hell, Vagrant Story (2000, Square, PS1) had a titles system which greatly added to replay value.

There is another thread floating around the forums that discussed this and listed a number of examples of public quests. 

Keep in mind I am far from well versed on this, but the earliest example I think comes from ultima online.  I think it was called champion events or something like that?  People stood around some special spawn point that were somehow triggered and killed enough things until a champion would spawn.  I'm sure that I butchered the details, but that is the basic idea of it.  

There are a number of other examples like Tabula Rasas defend point system, but I don't know if the ever functioned.  Even wow had public quests prior to warhammer.  The world events are a perfect example of a public quest, but on a much larger scale.  The AQ gates event was a server wide public quest to gather resources to open the gate.  The naxxramas event was similar and all around the world these little ziggurats would spawn [3-4 per zones] with about 100 minions protecting them.  Kill enough minor minions and some lieutenants would spawn.  Kill enough of those and some elites would spawn.  Collect a bunch of crystals/shards off any corpse to activate the spooky crystals and then a major elite would spawn.  The whole think would randomly respawn somewhere else in the zone 15 or some minutes after they were completed.

That is the basic foundation of warhammers public quest system that people cheered as being such an innovation, but existed almost identically in another game before warhammer released.

People on this site have double standards.  They cry about wow doing anything, but some other games does exactly the same thing and they cheer it as innovation.  *shrug*

Originally posted by Daffid011

  Even wow had public quests prior to warhammer.  The world events are a perfect example of a public quest, but on a much larger scale.  The AQ gates event was a server wide public quest to gather resources to open the gate.  The naxxramas event was similar and all around the world these little ziggurats would spawn [3-4 per zones] with about 100 minions protecting them.  Kill enough minor minions and some lieutenants would spawn.  Kill enough of those and some elites would spawn.  Collect a bunch of crystals/shards off any corpse to activate the spooky crystals and then a major elite would spawn.  The whole think would randomly respawn somewhere else in the zone 15 or some minutes after they were completed.

That is the basic foundation of warhammers public quest system that people cheered as being such an innovation, but existed almost identically in another game before warhammer released.

No, I'm sorry. The AQ and Necropoli events were cool (and I wish Blizzard did that stuff more often), but that's not very similar to PQs. "The world events are a perfect example of a public quest" is a gross exageration. There is some similarity, but far from a perfect example.

The mechanics of the world events, especially the the ziggurat spawns around the world are nearly identical to warhammer PQs.  Anyone could participate.  They had specific measurements to advance the various stages.  etc etc

This is how the ziggurat events in warcraft worked.

• Anyone can participate in the "event"
• Open world, not quest required to start the event.
• The event respawned at a set time
• Roughly 100 minions surrounding the quest objective (summoners) that needed to be cleared.  The minions would respawn.
• Kill loads of minions to gather shards to advance the quest to the second stage
• Kill the sub bosses in stage II (summoners) to advance the quest to the third stage
• Kill the elite boss that spawns to complete the event

That is the format for almost every warhammer public quest.  With the exception of the convoluted contribution system, it is the same exact thing. 

Like someone mentioned, the big revolutionary steps were probably made in the genre, and now it is about who does the standard things better, more efficient, more user-friendly that wins.

It's similar to mass market cars where the basic technology behind it is quite set, basic mechanics are more or less set - you have engine infront, trunk in the back, either 2 or 4 doors. The seats infront get moved back and forward with the handle under your seat. You have 3 (or two for auto) pedals - clutch left, break middle and accelerate right. You controll it by turning the steering wheel left end right.

Now every time they make a new model of a car, they try to improve the comfort, make it more efficient, update the systems within, but they don't change the basic principles, and untill they figure out how to make a flying car (major revolution in technology), it will remain within those limits.

That is I think where MMOs today are.

Originally posted by Daffid011

The mechanics of the world events, especially the the ziggurat spawns around the world are nearly identical to warhammer PQs.  Anyone could participate.  They had specific measurements to advance the various stages.  etc etc

This is how the ziggurat events in warcraft worked.

• Anyone can participate in the "event"
• Open world, not quest required to start the event.
• The event respawned at a set time
• Roughly 100 minions surrounding the quest objective (summoners) that needed to be cleared.  The minions would respawn.
• Kill loads of minions to gather shards to advance the quest to the second stage
• Kill the sub bosses in stage II (summoners) to advance the quest to the third stage
• Kill the elite boss that spawns to complete the event

That is the format for almost every warhammer public quest.  With the exception of the convoluted contribution system, it is the same exact thing. 

 

 

Good points. The PQs, however often have stages which required something other than just killing mobs. Burning tents or boats, turning over stones, etc. They aren't just about grinding mobs.

Originally posted by slask777

Originally posted by rikilii

Name one game on the market today that isn't a "rip off" (whatever that means) of some other game that came before it.

 

Look at the indie market. Lots of innovative, not to mention new ideas there. Those big developers develop big games with lots of money involved so their risk-taking is held on a very low level. Indie developers don't have that limitation. Sure, their games may not look as some bloody AAA title but they're stock-full of new ideas.

Name one.

Originally posted by Mopar63

Originally posted by sancher36

Ok the info I have seen so far on new expansion copies aspects from a few other mmos I am playing.

As for their new leveling scale they are adding on the side (warhammer type scale) along with the 5 extra levels that are not worth it really. Looks like the devs are more interested in taking bits and pieces from other mmos as they are lost for new real ideas.

Also making the old world flyable is not gonna excite alot of people that have levelled past those zones.

I can't really see anything that excites me at all with the next expansion and I have been playing wow nonstop for 4 years.

 

You guys do know this has been the Blizzard business style for years. The "original" WoW was not original at al. It took aspects of existing games and put them together, dumbed the game down and then put a little spit polish on it. To be surpised that this expansion takles opther ideas from other MMOs is silly, this is SOP for Blizzard.

Blizzard looks at other games and says hey that is cool and uses it, just like all other game designers do.   Nothing new here.   What is it with you people.   Someone made an auto one day.   Another guy looks at it and says hey I can do it better.    So they make a new auto.   Same goes for everything.   Look at phones these days.   Iphone comes out and look at all the copycats that come soon after.   

With that said, Blizzard also innovates.   Look at phasing.   Never saw that in any game I haev ever played.    Look at all the mini-games you get in WoW.   No game I ever played allowed for so many cool little mini-games within a game.   Icecrown is full of them and so is the Tournament area.    Some of the mini-games you find in WoW are unique to WoW and I do not see them being ripped off from other games.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Daffid011

The mechanics of the world events, especially the the ziggurat spawns around the world are nearly identical to warhammer PQs.  Anyone could participate.  They had specific measurements to advance the various stages.  etc etc

This is how the ziggurat events in warcraft worked.

• Anyone can participate in the "event"
• Open world, not quest required to start the event.
• The event respawned at a set time
• Roughly 100 minions surrounding the quest objective (summoners) that needed to be cleared.  The minions would respawn.
• Kill loads of minions to gather shards to advance the quest to the second stage
• Kill the sub bosses in stage II (summoners) to advance the quest to the third stage
• Kill the elite boss that spawns to complete the event

That is the format for almost every warhammer public quest.  With the exception of the convoluted contribution system, it is the same exact thing. 

 

 

Good points. The PQs, however often have stages which required something other than just killing mobs. Burning tents or boats, turning over stones, etc. They aren't just about grinding mobs.

True, but the core concept is still the exact same thing.  Mythic just took the concept and applied it to such an extreme the public quests dominate almost the entire gameplay of warhammer.  They removed dungeon and replaced them with PQs.  City sieges... PQs.  etc.   Mythic then put an automated need before greed system on top of that.

My point was that what mythic offered in public quests has been seen in other games before and people call it innovation.

Blizzard does anything and people say blizzard never innovates. 

There are two sets of standards on these forums.  One for wow and one for everything else. 

Originally posted by Teala 

With that said, Blizzard also innovates.   Look at phasing.   Never saw that in any game I haev ever played.    Look at all the mini-games you get in WoW.   No game I ever played allowed for so many cool little mini-games within a game.   Icecrown is full of them and so is the Tournament area.    Some of the mini-games you find in WoW are unique to WoW and I do not see them being ripped off from other games.

 

What mini-games?

If people like the "copied" formula - why hate on it? Seems to me if something works then use it - if someone else has it and people like it - use it.

Not everything original is great after all...

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by slask777

Originally posted by rikilii

Name one game on the market today that isn't a "rip off" (whatever that means) of some other game that came before it.

 

Look at the indie market. Lots of innovative, not to mention new ideas there. Those big developers develop big games with lots of money involved so their risk-taking is held on a very low level. Indie developers don't have that limitation. Sure, their games may not look as some bloody AAA title but they're stock-full of new ideas.

 

Name one.

I named 3 actually in a previous post. Go back a page or two...

Originally posted by Daffid011

The mechanics of the world events, especially the the ziggurat spawns around the world are nearly identical to warhammer PQs.  Anyone could participate.  They had specific measurements to advance the various stages.  etc etc

This is how the ziggurat events in warcraft worked.

• Anyone can participate in the "event"
• Open world, not quest required to start the event.
• The event respawned at a set time
• Roughly 100 minions surrounding the quest objective (summoners) that needed to be cleared.  The minions would respawn.
• Kill loads of minions to gather shards to advance the quest to the second stage
• Kill the sub bosses in stage II (summoners) to advance the quest to the third stage
• Kill the elite boss that spawns to complete the event

That is the format for almost every warhammer public quest.  With the exception of the convoluted contribution system, it is the same exact thing. 

 

 

I enjoy WoWs phasing mechanic over WARs PQs. PQs are to reliant on a massive amount of people (the good ones) while I can either solo quest and enjoy phasing as it changes the area around me or do it with any number of people I want.

It's more accessible and that's what really matters.

Phasing>PQs

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Teala 

With that said, Blizzard also innovates.   Look at phasing.   Never saw that in any game I haev ever played.    Look at all the mini-games you get in WoW.   No game I ever played allowed for so many cool little mini-games within a game.   Icecrown is full of them and so is the Tournament area.    Some of the mini-games you find in WoW are unique to WoW and I do not see them being ripped off from other games.

 

What mini-games?

OK in Icecrown you get to take control of a Goblin bomber.   You fly around the battlefield and drop bombs trying to knock out a certain number of forces and leaders and while you're doing that you have to switch positions to climb into the gunners seat and shoot down dragons that are trying to burn your aircraft.

Then there is the jumpa-tron game - King of the Mountain.

What about the daily where you man a gun and shoot down gryphon riders for the Ebon Blade.

The tournament jousting is a mini-game.

I can name plenty more.   Those are mini-games within the game.   

Originally posted by slask777

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by slask777

Originally posted by rikilii

Name one game on the market today that isn't a "rip off" (whatever that means) of some other game that came before it.

 

Look at the indie market. Lots of innovative, not to mention new ideas there. Those big developers develop big games with lots of money involved so their risk-taking is held on a very low level. Indie developers don't have that limitation. Sure, their games may not look as some bloody AAA title but they're stock-full of new ideas.

 

Name one.

 

I named 3 actually in a previous post. Go back a page or two...

Oh yea those are copied in so many games.   
 

Originally posted by Dameonk

Originally posted by sancher36

Ok the info I have seen so far on new expansion copies aspects from a few other mmos I am playing.

Is this a joke or something?  Blizzard copied every single mechanic of their game from other games.  There isn't an original idea in WoW.

Hell they even made it possible to mod the original horrible UI so they could steal other people's ideas for how to improve it.

You talk as if thats a bad thing. Humans naturally take ideas from others. Ever here of a Music Sample

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by slask777

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by slask777

Originally posted by rikilii

Name one game on the market today that isn't a "rip off" (whatever that means) of some other game that came before it.

 

Look at the indie market. Lots of innovative, not to mention new ideas there. Those big developers develop big games with lots of money involved so their risk-taking is held on a very low level. Indie developers don't have that limitation. Sure, their games may not look as some bloody AAA title but they're stock-full of new ideas.

 

Name one.

 

I named 3 actually in a previous post. Go back a page or two...

Oh yea those are copied in so many games.   
 

lol..who talked about copied stuff? I talked about new, innovative ideas. Way to miss the point there...

Anywat, mmo's aint exactly known for bringing new ideas to the table. Copycats all of them. On that note, how is taking a fps idea and something that been done in dozens on shooters and bring it to an mmo pvp arena innovative?? If that's innovative, then mech fighting mmo's are innovative.

Phasing nothing new either. Go play almost any singleplayer game, and some multiplayer and watch that happen. Hell, even the old Baldur's Gate changed the scenery as you played the story. Phasing, funny to give new fancysmancy words to old crap done a hundred times before, is an old idea and people trying to sell it as something new need to learn about videogames other than mmo's.

Blizzard always worked like that, take ideas, polish them and release the product. Hell, I love Blizzard games as much as any gamer, but I'm not some blind fanboy ignoring the history of gaming to praise the product. Some people act like their lover or close family member being badmouthed when an mmo gets the trashtalk.

heh...Kinda pathetic actually. They are just bloody games.

Originally posted by slask777 

lol..who talked about copied stuff? I talked about new, innovative ideas. Way to miss the point there...

Anywat, mmo's aint exactly known for bringing new ideas to the table. Copycats all of them. On that note, how is taking a fps idea and something that been done in dozens on shooters and bring it to an mmo pvp arena innovative?? If that's innovative, then mech fighting mmo's are innovative.

Phasing nothing new either. Go play almost any singleplayer game, and some multiplayer and watch that happen. Hell, even the old Baldur's Gate changed the scenery as you played the story. Phasing, funny to give new fancysmancy words to old crap done a hundred times before, is an old idea and people trying to sell it as something new need to learn about videogames other than mmo's.

Blizzard always worked like that, take ideas, polish them and release the product. Hell, I love Blizzard games as much as any gamer, but I'm not some blind fanboy ignoring the history of gaming to praise the product. Some people act like their lover or close family member being badmouthed when an mmo gets the trashtalk.

heh...Kinda pathetic actually. They are just bloody games.

Quoted for truth. 

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Originally posted by Zorndorf

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Originally posted by slask777

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Originally posted by Teala

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Originally posted by slask777

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Originally posted by Teala

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Originally posted by slask777

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Originally posted by rikilii

Name one game on the market today that isn't a "rip off" (whatever that means) of some other game that came before it.

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Look at the indie market. Lots of innovative, not to mention new ideas there. Those big developers develop big games with lots of money involved so their risk-taking is held on a very low level. Indie developers don't have that limitation. Sure, their games may not look as some bloody AAA title but they're stock-full of new ideas.

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Name one.

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I named 3 actually in a previous post. Go back a page or two...

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Oh yea those are copied in so many games.   
 

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lol..who talked about copied stuff? I talked about new, innovative ideas. Way to miss the point there...
Anywat, mmo's aint exactly known for bringing new ideas to the table. Copycats all of them. On that note, how is taking a fps idea and something that been done in dozens on shooters and bring it to an mmo pvp arena innovative?? If that's innovative, then mech fighting mmo's are innovative.
Phasing nothing new either. Go play almost any singleplayer game, and some multiplayer and watch that happen. Hell, even the old Baldur's Gate changed the scenery as you played the story. Phasing, funny to give new fancysmancy words to old crap done a hundred times before, is an old idea and people trying to sell it as something new need to learn about videogames other than mmo's.
Blizzard always worked like that, take ideas, polish them and release the product. Hell, I love Blizzard games as much as any gamer, but I'm not some blind fanboy ignoring the history of gaming to praise the product. Some people act like their lover or close family member being badmouthed when an mmo gets the trashtalk.
heh...Kinda pathetic actually. They are just bloody games.

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Tell that to the trash talkers.
 
Like someone else said: Guys on mmorpg.com take double standards when they talk about WOW and Blizzard.
From patch 3.1 to 3.3 you get dual specs, PvP leveling, Exp shut down option, clustered server dungeons, gear equiper, some touching even upon the core mechanics.
If only ONE of those above features were in a new game, these same guys would be screaming of God send features.
Blizzard does this in a few months time and they vomit on it. Even finding just a little tiny hole to put through any meaningless critics about anything.
Take the huge boost in the cluster of dungeons will have on the game. Ninja. Just as if a server/roll doesn't exist.
People don't understand the significance WOW has on this industry.
Without WOW, mmo's would never have the same mainstream intrest (and funding).
Lately I saw some changes in the editorial behaviour on mmorpg.com. At least THEY are beginning to see it now.
It was about time.
 

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