Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by theratmonkey

You do realize they're reworking all the talents to work in favor of  what you want to play, not what is best for raiding/pvp. This is, of course, if Blizzard pulls this off.

If they do, this will play into the "uniqueness" of classes and their mechanics by allowing people to play what they want to in regards to class, race, and spec.

Dumbing down stats isn't going to hurt the game at all when it comes to uniqueness. It's just going to make choosing your armor a bit easier. A classes base stats are still going to be fairly different from one another. As is their mechanics.

 

 

I'm assuming you're talking about the mastery system.

* The old passive bonuses will be automatically added to your character through the Mastery system as you spend more points in a talent tree. Spending a lot of points in Fury will give you extra crit, etc ... this will be implemented for all classes.

I don't see where there will be any difference then there is now. People will still follow cookie cutter builds the only difference is more points may be free for other trees considering the passives are being taken out and placed in benefits of your current spec.

Although my point was not that they was dumbing down stats (but I still feel they are). It's the fact that they are killing any sense of variety. Choosing armor is already easy. Pick and choosing gear is so simple now that most of the time all you have to look at is the item level and it's an upgrade.

 

 

But thats the whole Idea.. in wow currenty you pick talents and tress because a tier 4 talent they give you +5% dps or a tier 5 talent gives you +10% stamina bonus.  Right now the reaosn you pick talents it because it gives you +dps,  +healing +block etc, you pick them becuase "you have to" not because you want to.

Blizzard wanna change things up, they wont you to pick and spend talents becuase it will augment your abilities in fun and interesting ways such a give you a 100% crit chance after your charge an enemy.  half your pet summoning time. etc

You'll still get the +dps +healing etc but you'll also get meaningful fun abilities.

They want to give you "talents" not stat boosts.

Watch this video from blizzcon 09 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbYYgspgKYE and i think you'll agree

Originally posted by coffee

I'm assuming you're talking about the mastery system.

* The old passive bonuses will be automatically added to your character through the Mastery system as you spend more points in a talent tree. Spending a lot of points in Fury will give you extra crit, etc ... this will be implemented for all classes.

I don't see where there will be any difference then there is now. People will still follow cookie cutter builds the only difference is more points may be free for other trees considering the passives are being taken out and placed in benefits of your current spec.

Although my point was not that they was dumbing down stats (but I still feel they are). It's the fact that they are killing any sense of variety. Choosing armor is already easy. Pick and choosing gear is so simple now that most of the time all you have to look at is the item level and it's an upgrade.

 

 

 

But thats the whole Idea.. in wow currenty you pick talents and tress because a tier 4 talent they give you +5% dps or a tier 5 talent gives you +10% stamina bonus.  Right now the reaosn you pick talents it because it gives you +dps,  +healing +block etc, you pick them becuase "you have to" not because you want to.

Blizzard wanna change things up, they wont you to pick and spend talents becuase it will augment your abilities in fun and interesting ways such a give you a 100% crit chance after your charge an enemy.  half your pet summoning time. etc

You'll still get the +dps +healing etc but you'll also get meaningful fun abilities.

They want to give you "talents" not stat boosts.

This assuming it works that way.

I can almost garentee this is how passive bonuses will work. Example let's say 5% hit, it's in the combat tree of rogue. This is in the first tier of the tree.  The way I'm sure it's going to be work is something to the effect of takes 10 points in combat to get the 5% passive. This means people that still need 5% hit will try and spend 10 points in the tree to obtain it.

It's obvious they wanna change things up, the problem is they are horrible at changing things.

You mean we will get dps healing etc. easier? Warrior hits 80, 80 warrior specs for tanking, 80 warrior can now tank heroics. No defense raiting required. 

haha, making them talents not stat boosts? Talents being something you specialize in, how is getting that 5% by having to spend so many points in the tree any different then choosing it from  point selection. Blizzard changed it so it must be better!

Edit: After watching the video. I can easily say same shit. People will still follow cookie cutter builds. Stop getting excited about how good it sounds on paper, this shit always changes.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by coffee

I'm assuming you're talking about the mastery system.

* The old passive bonuses will be automatically added to your character through the Mastery system as you spend more points in a talent tree. Spending a lot of points in Fury will give you extra crit, etc ... this will be implemented for all classes.

I don't see where there will be any difference then there is now. People will still follow cookie cutter builds the only difference is more points may be free for other trees considering the passives are being taken out and placed in benefits of your current spec.

Although my point was not that they was dumbing down stats (but I still feel they are). It's the fact that they are killing any sense of variety. Choosing armor is already easy. Pick and choosing gear is so simple now that most of the time all you have to look at is the item level and it's an upgrade.

 

 

 

But thats the whole Idea.. in wow currenty you pick talents and tress because a tier 4 talent they give you +5% dps or a tier 5 talent gives you +10% stamina bonus.  Right now the reaosn you pick talents it because it gives you +dps,  +healing +block etc, you pick them becuase "you have to" not because you want to.

Blizzard wanna change things up, they wont you to pick and spend talents becuase it will augment your abilities in fun and interesting ways such a give you a 100% crit chance after your charge an enemy.  half your pet summoning time. etc

You'll still get the +dps +healing etc but you'll also get meaningful fun abilities.

They want to give you "talents" not stat boosts.

This assuming it works that way.

I can almost garentee this is how passive bonuses will work. Example let's say 5% hit, it's in the combat tree of rogue. This is in the first tier of the tree.  The way I'm sure it's going to be work is something to the effect of takes 10 points in combat to get the 5% passive. This means people that still need 5% hit will try and spend 10 points in the tree to obtain it.

It's obvious they wanna change things up, the problem is they are horrible at changing things.

You mean we will get dps healing etc. easier? Warrior hits 80, 80 warrior specs for tanking, 80 warrior can now tank heroics. No defense raiting required. 

haha, making them talents not stat boosts? Talents being something you specialize in, how is getting that 5% by having to spend so many points in the tree any different then choosing it from  point selection. Blizzard changed it so it must be better!

 

not sure if you caught my edit, video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbYYgspgKYE explaining it all.

Your very negative, not open to changes, you think the current system is so bad yet your not willing to give a different system a try.

The idea is you can specialise and go for 1 tree if you like, but you can take the talents you want in that tree and not just take stuff you dont care about just becuase it adds points in that tree.

For example you want to get the 51pt talent, you spend 40 points on stuff you want you then need to spend 11pt on stuff you dont realy want or wont improve your build in way.

How would you do talents?

Originally posted by coffee

 

not sure if you caught my edit, video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbYYgspgKYE explaining it all.

Caught it and updated my post.

Your very negative, not open to changes, you think the current system is so bad yet your not willing to give a different system a try.

I'm open to changes that make sense. Taking out a talent that provides 5% damage in a tree to only add it as a modifier is not a bad idea. But this does not mean people will be better off or follow different paths.  I have done healing, dps (caster and melee) and tanking. And just about every raid the same class I was playing had almost 100% same talent point distribution. Now if you can assure me players will have more reason to try different paths then please inform me. Because I still see the same people taking 25 point assassination for 5% damage for pvp/pve.

The idea is you can specialise and go for 1 tree if you like, but you can take the talents you want in that tree and not just take stuff you dont care about just becuase it adds points in that tree.

That's the idea, but after WOTLK I'm not sure blizzard can come close to what you think this will be.

For example you want to get the 51pt talent, you spend 40 points on stuff you want you then need to spend 11pt on stuff you dont realy want or wont improve your build in way.

Wows current talent system is ass. I agree. But I don't see how doing this would improve anything.

How would you do talents?

Answering this question would take time. I'm not going to give you a system that I thought about in 5 minutes. I'm not blizzard. But if I did think of one it wouldn't be as horrible as there current and coming system.

Originally posted by kelarcanus

They're redoing just about all of the core systems as far as I can tell...

 

Not just changing how stats work this time, they're completely redoing the attribute system... As well as the talen system... And adding an alternative leveling path for post 80.  Redoing all the old content...

 

It's like a new game.

 

It makes me want to go back just to try it :(

Do you know what it like? Listen my mini story...

After eat same food "macaroni" for 1 month, chef coming to ask you next month "Hey man, do you want to eat your macaroni with some ketchup or you want to eat totally different food Pizza or Kebab?

My answer is; "Sorry i want to eat Kebab this time, got bored to eat macaroni even with ketchup"

Old is old, I hope you get it ;)

I'm all for anything that reduces or eliminates cookie cutter build requirements, making every build viable and powerful in it's own right.

If they can manage to give meaningful end game content for every play style, I could very much see myself coming back to this game.  Raider bias is the primary reason why I quit MMOs once I get bored with early to mid game.

I'm assuming these changes are being implemented due in part to mechanisms that they came up with in their secretive and upcoming second MMO.  Which means I will likely want to try it too when it releases.

YAAAAWWWWNNNNN! Its not gonna be no WOW 2.0 its the same game, ugly outdate graphics, boring grind, new ideas taken from other games ( guild lvl), recycled just new color enemies and bosses, and recycled new races. They could have made whole new character models like they did with the Dran & BE. Not even a new class come on. The reason they are making this expansion is because new mmos are coming out. They did this when WAR came out and now Aion is coming out and I bet anything they will try to release this expansion around the same time SWTOR comes out. Speaking of SWTOR i just saw the gameplay video on ign.com. Now that mmo looks like its bringing new things too the mmo world not just a copy of another mmo. I know I will be quiting WOW when SWTOR comes out even if this ( in my opinion so far but can be to early to tell) lame expansion comes out around the same time.

Originally posted by Vrazule

I'm all for anything that reduces or eliminates cookie cutter build requirements, making every build viable and powerful in it's own right.

If they can manage to give meaningful end game content for every play style, I could very much see myself coming back to this game.  Raider bias is the primary reason why I quit MMOs once I get bored with early to mid game.

I'm assuming these changes are being implemented due in part to mechanisms that they came up with in their secretive and upcoming second MMO.  Which means I will likely want to try it too when it releases.

I'm all for making other talent trees viable. But eventually the player base will find the most viable spec for each class and the cookie cutters begin once again.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by qombi

 

This I see as great changes. I always think it is stupid for a game to have so many redundant stats. Brilliant for one game maker to go back and stream line their game instead of making it more clunky over time such as Everquest. That game is filled with legacy garbage stats.

The more I read the more I think someone in charge is really doing good things. I always thought they were adding too many new stats pasted on the original game. This is great news.

Mp5 I get. But attack power and spell power? Was it to hard for people? I know they was not useless or redundant. Why? I play a rogue, main spec mut so I tend to stack a lot of agility. Buddy of mine is combat he tends to stack a lot of AttP. What blizzard is doing is what they have been doing since the release of TBC, killing any form of uniqueness in this game. And Defense is now only anti-crit through talents, no more rating?  None of this was clunky at all. Hitting 540 was an accomplishment, removing these further dumb's down the game.

If you wanna remove "rebudant" stats then do it this way. Merge Spirit and Int, why not, both caster stats. Agi and Str, both melee stats, and leave stamina alone. Dumbed down enough?   I wouldn't be surprised if this was to happen. In the end every class will basically operate the same, that was pretty much said in a video interview when asked why a new class was not in this coming expansion.

I'm guessing you are one those people that had trouble balancing stats. ARMOR PEN IS HARD TO DEAL WITH. It's cool sooner then later this game will be right where most of the terribads want it. Rolling your face on a keyboard for success.

 

Uniqueness</3

It isn't wise to make assumptions. I am not even going to justify the insults in your post with answers. I find streamlining stats a good thing. I don't think what they are doing are "dumbing" down the game. It really wasn't hard to figure out before just clunky. The problem was in the original it was one way then after the two expansions they kept adding more new stats making the system clunky.

I like what Blizzard is doing enough to come back when the expansion goes live. I appreciate them cleaning up cluttered expansion issues that other mmo companies just ignore and stack more "new" features on top of as time goes on.

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by qombi

 

This I see as great changes. I always think it is stupid for a game to have so many redundant stats. Brilliant for one game maker to go back and stream line their game instead of making it more clunky over time such as Everquest. That game is filled with legacy garbage stats.

The more I read the more I think someone in charge is really doing good things. I always thought they were adding too many new stats pasted on the original game. This is great news.

Mp5 I get. But attack power and spell power? Was it to hard for people? I know they was not useless or redundant. Why? I play a rogue, main spec mut so I tend to stack a lot of agility. Buddy of mine is combat he tends to stack a lot of AttP. What blizzard is doing is what they have been doing since the release of TBC, killing any form of uniqueness in this game. And Defense is now only anti-crit through talents, no more rating?  None of this was clunky at all. Hitting 540 was an accomplishment, removing these further dumb's down the game.

If you wanna remove "rebudant" stats then do it this way. Merge Spirit and Int, why not, both caster stats. Agi and Str, both melee stats, and leave stamina alone. Dumbed down enough?   I wouldn't be surprised if this was to happen. In the end every class will basically operate the same, that was pretty much said in a video interview when asked why a new class was not in this coming expansion.

I'm guessing you are one those people that had trouble balancing stats. ARMOR PEN IS HARD TO DEAL WITH. It's cool sooner then later this game will be right where most of the terribads want it. Rolling your face on a keyboard for success.

 

Uniqueness</3

 

It isn't wise to make assumptions.

Follow your own advice.

The problem was in the original it was one way then after the two expansions they kept adding more new stats making the system clunky.

Clunky = Confusing, gotcha

I like what Blizzard is doing enough to come back when the expansion goes live.

Are you assuming it's going to be good?

I appreciate them cleaning up cluttered expansion issues that other mmo companies just ignore and stack more "new" features on top of as time goes on.

I agree clearing cluttered issues is a great thing. As I said MP5 Is completely understandable. But agility and attack power, intellect and spell power, were two completely different things. There was no clutter. Hell half the gear that came with agility had attack power, same for Int and spell power. Defense rating was a great thing to have, it helped tanks hitting 80 in more then one way. Trying to gain that 540 requirement they should have gotten tons of experience in dungeon running, helping them all the more understanding fights. The only time there would ever be clutter was if you was  trying to stack more then the required stats for your class/spec. And that would be your problem now wouldn't it?

Just admit they are making it easier. There was no clutter, you would have to have been a idiot to feel any form of clutter with stats.

 

Originally posted by kelarcanus

They're redoing just about all of the core systems as far as I can tell...

 

Not just changing how stats work this time, they're completely redoing the attribute system... As well as the talen system... And adding an alternative leveling path for post 80.  Redoing all the old content...

 

It's like a new game.

 

It makes me want to go back just to try it :(

You havent been around for the previous two "expansions"?

WoW doesnt have expansions in the traditional mmorpg sense. They are re-images of the game.

What Blizzard do with expansions is what the makers did with Batman Begins. They take an existing franchise and adapt it to the market of the day.

Cataclysm is only the 3rd expansion but it will not resemble the WoW I started playing in early 2005.  Blizzard are doing successfully what Lucas Arts and SoE did so terribly with NGE for SWG.

Since WotLK Blizzard have been subtetly telling old gamers like myself to GTFO of WoW. Most of the people I started playing have either quit, or play very sporadically. But we didnt all quit at once in disgust. We were "phased out" for the younger, newer model gamers. (i'll refrain from making Ritalin and Halo jokes this time only)

Good business decisisons by Blizzard even if I dont like them.

I think it sounds like an extensive revamp and its a big gamble on Blizzards part . They did need to breath new life into this game but to me it sounds like this could easily go wrong .

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by qombi

 

This I see as great changes. I always think it is stupid for a game to have so many redundant stats. Brilliant for one game maker to go back and stream line their game instead of making it more clunky over time such as Everquest. That game is filled with legacy garbage stats.

The more I read the more I think someone in charge is really doing good things. I always thought they were adding too many new stats pasted on the original game. This is great news.

Mp5 I get. But attack power and spell power? Was it to hard for people? I know they was not useless or redundant. Why? I play a rogue, main spec mut so I tend to stack a lot of agility. Buddy of mine is combat he tends to stack a lot of AttP. What blizzard is doing is what they have been doing since the release of TBC, killing any form of uniqueness in this game. And Defense is now only anti-crit through talents, no more rating?  None of this was clunky at all. Hitting 540 was an accomplishment, removing these further dumb's down the game.

If you wanna remove "rebudant" stats then do it this way. Merge Spirit and Int, why not, both caster stats. Agi and Str, both melee stats, and leave stamina alone. Dumbed down enough?   I wouldn't be surprised if this was to happen. In the end every class will basically operate the same, that was pretty much said in a video interview when asked why a new class was not in this coming expansion.

I'm guessing you are one those people that had trouble balancing stats. ARMOR PEN IS HARD TO DEAL WITH. It's cool sooner then later this game will be right where most of the terribads want it. Rolling your face on a keyboard for success.

 

Uniqueness</3

 

It isn't wise to make assumptions.

Follow your own advice.

The problem was in the original it was one way then after the two expansions they kept adding more new stats making the system clunky.

Clunky = Confusing, gotcha

I like what Blizzard is doing enough to come back when the expansion goes live.

Are you assuming it's going to be good?

I appreciate them cleaning up cluttered expansion issues that other mmo companies just ignore and stack more "new" features on top of as time goes on.

I agree clearing cluttered issues is a great thing. As I said MP5 Is completely understandable. But agility and attack power, intellect and spell power, were two completely different things. There was no clutter. Hell half the gear that came with agility had attack power, same for Int and spell power. Defense rating was a great thing to have, it helped tanks hitting 80 in more then one way. Trying to gain that 540 requirement they should have gotten tons of experience in dungeon running, helping them all the more understanding fights. The only time there would ever be clutter was if you was  trying to stack more then the required stats for your class/spec. And that would be your problem now wouldn't it?

Just admit they are making it easier. There was no clutter, you would have to have been a idiot to feel any form of clutter with stats.

 

 

Through having a conversation with you. You just insult to try to make your point which doesn't work. You also make up false claims about others. Point to where I assumed anything about you and though I appreciate your effort to try to guess why I feel the way I do about the changes, I can assure you it isn't needed. I prefer to have a dialog with someone who is respectful.

Originally posted by qombi

 

Through having a conversation with you.

Then move the hell on.

You just insult to try to make your point which doesn't work.

I'm just a sarcastic asshole. I don't intend to be a prick. It just happens.

You also make up false claims about others.

Really, when?

Point to where I assumed anything about you

LOL never said you did.

and though I appreciate your effort to try to guess why I feel the way I do about the changes, I can assure you it isn't needed. I prefer to have a dialog with someone who is respectful.

When you can present logical reasons why the stats were clunky and stop crying over them because they was to hard then please come back and have a respectful conversation with me. And just so you will stop crying instead of looking into your class and requirements check this out. And before you get all "that's a lot of stats" on me. Personal choice being your play style, anything under that catagory is not required at all.

DPS Physical Required Stats

Crit Rating

Hit Rating

Attack Power

DPS Physical Personal Choice Stats (these stats often come on pieces of gear without even focusing on it)

Haste

Armor Pen

DPS Physical PvP Stats

Resilience

Attack Power

DPS Physical Personal Choice PvP Stats

Hit Rating

Crit Rating

Haste

Armor Pen

Dodge

Armor

Apparently the only complex part of physical dps is PvP. Even then half the stats are listed under personal choice, even then only some of those are viable dependant on what class you play.

 

DPS Caster Required Stats

Crit Rating

Spell Power

Hit Rating

DPS Caster Personal Choice Stats

Haste

DPS Caster PvP Stats

Spell Power

Spell Pen

Resilience

DPS Caster Personal Choice PvP Stats

Hit Rating

Crit Rating

Haste

Armor

Warrior Tank Stats

Armor

Defense

Dodge

Parry

Block

Druid Tank Stats

Armor

Defense (easy as hell to even deal with as a druid)

Dodge

Death Knight Tank Stats

Armor

Defense

Dodge

Parry

Paladin Tank Stats

Armor

Defense

Dodge

Parry

(Block is less viable due to Holy Shield)

 

Warriors seem to have it worse when it comes to tanking. And as far as tanking goes. Hit is viable but you don't need much so it's not even worth listing.

Weapon skill was listed for what reason? If you're weapon skill is not maxed for your current weapon then that should be one of your top priorities when hitting 80.

Resistances use to be the main thing in vanilla. Listing it here is pointless considering most fights which require any resistances anymore only takes maybe one piece of gear with the current element you are against because of Totems/Auras/Buffs.

Mp5 removal was the only smart move. It's only cause was mana regen. Where spirit has the exact same effect with health regen, as if health regen ever mattered.

As far as stats go (agi, str, stam etc) most of that comes with gear dependant on what class you play(look at Tier sets).

Every time they make a class or a spec "viable" they spend the next 1-3 months screwing it up. 

Originally posted by chunky_slice

Originally posted by kelarcanus

They're redoing just about all of the core systems as far as I can tell...

 

Not just changing how stats work this time, they're completely redoing the attribute system... As well as the talen system... And adding an alternative leveling path for post 80.  Redoing all the old content...

 

It's like a new game.

 

It makes me want to go back just to try it :(

 

You havent been around for the previous two "expansions"?

WoW doesnt have expansions in the traditional mmorpg sense. They are re-images of the game.

What Blizzard do with expansions is what the makers did with Batman Begins. They take an existing franchise and adapt it to the market of the day.

Cataclysm is only the 3rd expansion but it will not resemble the WoW I started playing in early 2005.  Blizzard are doing successfully what Lucas Arts and SoE did so terribly with NGE for SWG.

Since WotLK Blizzard have been subtetly telling old gamers like myself to GTFO of WoW. Most of the people I started playing have either quit, or play very sporadically. But we didnt all quit at once in disgust. We were "phased out" for the younger, newer model gamers. (i'll refrain from making Ritalin and Halo jokes this time only)

Good business decisisons by Blizzard even if I dont like them.

The changes that Blizzard makes allows newer players to catch up. Thus, Blizzard can easily handle new subscriptions catching up to older players and being viable. The gear rotation each expansion helps that as well. In a way, this model helps the game stay fresh.