Originally posted by Antipathy

...And then we come to hard modes. Some of the hard modes do have gear checks. They include DPS races (amongst other things). But pretty much all the gear you need for hard modes is available in normal modes. So all that 6% who killed Yog Saron has to do is farm Ulduar for a month or two, and they should have plenty of gear to do hard modes. So why have only 0.58% of them done Firefighter? Surely most guilds that can clear Ulduar are capable of farming the place for a month or two and getting gear? So whilst most of them almost certainly passed the gear check, 90% of those guilds who cleared Ulduar failed to get Firefighter. Why? Lack of skill...

I don't entirely attribute it to lack of skill plus what is skill is very subjective to begin with. I think what is taken for skill is merely the experience and knowledge, the time spent failing and succeeding while raiding with your guild which requires a substantial amount of time left generally only for the hardcore and the casual gamers that can fit 1 run in their weekend schedules. What I don't like about raiding is the fact that it is the only option beyond heroic 5-man's to develop my character (did I mention that I have to run those same 5-man's again to go up to the next gear? What a fail patch.) Why can't there be other ways (especially ways for casual gamers) to develop my character? Why not gear on par with higher tiered gears through obnoxiously long quest lines and crazy amounts of dailies? (and make it so casual AND hardcore gamers would acquire this gear at a rate of like 1 or 2 per month, so raiding will still be the "best option" for farming gear, but that option is really only left for the hardcore and select few casual gamers with time on their weekends).

Another good point to figure out is that WoW uses an outdated model in terms of development which is rather tiring and old and that is the emphasis on gear beyond level 80. I'm glad some ways for the new expansion (like the Path of the Titan and Mastery) and annoyed in others ways (like level cap increases and drastic changes to game mechanics to "dumb down" the game for the masses).

The Reason I quit WoW was mostly because of noobs ruining my raiding experience. Even with T7(10 man) in WoW, I was dealing nearly 4k dps in Naxx consistently. This is on a huntard, after nerfs, of course. Before I quit, I had 4pc T8(25 man) and barely got to use it, lol. Anyway, Ulduar isn't so Hunter friendly but I'd get over 5k mostly. There were countless numbers of people in my guild with good gear. Even just T7 25 man in ulduar, you should at least be doing 4k on any dps class but they were doing 3.5k or lower. It boils down to skill. In fact, most other classes I know /faceroll their keyboard to pull 4k dps if you have the rotation down and T7.5.

What I love about End Game is RAIDING! I log on only for raids. That's it. I set myself up so I sell Jewels on the AH to pay for repairs and that's it. I love to be the first, or fighting to be first, on the server to do something as a guild. Damn my friends, I quit WoW before and then they started playing. Alliance... Of course... If they told me that they were playing again I would have made them go Horde. maybe I'd still be playing.

Originally posted by Jairoe03

Originally posted by Antipathy

...And then we come to hard modes. Some of the hard modes do have gear checks. They include DPS races (amongst other things). But pretty much all the gear you need for hard modes is available in normal modes. So all that 6% who killed Yog Saron has to do is farm Ulduar for a month or two, and they should have plenty of gear to do hard modes. So why have only 0.58% of them done Firefighter? Surely most guilds that can clear Ulduar are capable of farming the place for a month or two and getting gear? So whilst most of them almost certainly passed the gear check, 90% of those guilds who cleared Ulduar failed to get Firefighter. Why? Lack of skill...

 

I don't entirely attribute it to lack of skill plus what is skill is very subjective to begin with. I think what is taken for skill is merely the experience and knowledge, the time spent failing and succeeding while raiding with your guild which requires a substantial amount of time left generally only for the hardcore and the casual gamers that can fit 1 run in their weekend schedules. What I don't like about raiding is the fact that it is the only option beyond heroic 5-man's to develop my character (did I mention that I have to run those same 5-man's again to go up to the next gear? What a fail patch.) Why can't there be other ways (especially ways for casual gamers) to develop my character? Why not gear on par with higher tiered gears through obnoxiously long quest lines and crazy amounts of dailies? (and make it so casual AND hardcore gamers would acquire this gear at a rate of like 1 or 2 per month, so raiding will still be the "best option" for farming gear, but that option is really only left for the hardcore and select few casual gamers with time on their weekends).

Another good point to figure out is that WoW uses an outdated model in terms of development which is rather tiring and old and that is the emphasis on gear beyond level 80. I'm glad some ways for the new expansion (like the Path of the Titan and Mastery) and annoyed in others ways (like level cap increases and drastic changes to game mechanics to "dumb down" the game for the masses).

That would make it exactly the same as any skill in the real world. Skills take time and practice to develop. Tiger woods wasn't the best golf player in the world the first time he picked up a golf club. And different people learn skills at different rates. Some never learn them. And TBH, it sounds to me like you simply don't understand because you've had very little experience of raiding. You haven't held fealt the incredible frustration of wiping 10 times in a row on a boss that you fealt was easy because many other people in  your raid were still stuggling to move correctly, simply because half your raid lacked skill. And the most important skill in wow raiding is the ability to learn quickly - without it, you will be wiping on the early bosses again and again. With it, and even casual guilds can conquer Ulduar.

As for your complaints about heroics, to a large extent I agree with you. Wrath of the Lich King heroics failed badly. They are simply too easy. Most normal mode level 80 dungeons can be easily completed by a group of 78 players, and many players progress to heroics within a week of hitting 80. They are far too easy for any experienced player. It's stupid that they now offer some of the best rewards in the game - but that's Blizzard's attempt to cater to whiners.

As for putting crazy long grinds to get the best gear. Why? Soloers already have ways to get a fair number of decent upgrades (e.g. through the Argent Tournament). At the moment the best gear in the game is available through skill - making equal gear available through grinding would, in my opinion, cheapen the game. And what would happen - well for the truely hardcore, the progression would be obvious - they would do the grinds, and the raids, and get both sets of gear. Because that's how truely hardcore people play. So they'd still have much better gear than you. The difference is that they'd now  also have better gear than the skillful non-hardcore players.

Originally posted by Xyfire1 Even just T7 25 man in ulduar, you should at least be doing 4k on any dps class but they were doing 3.5k or lower. It boils down to skill. In fact, most other classes I know /faceroll their keyboard to pull 4k dps if you have the rotation down and T7.5.

Agree completely - any DPS who can't pull at least 3.5k DPS in Ulduar 25 shouldn't be there. They either lack skill or gear. And the gear is pretty easy to get in Naxx, so most failures are due to lack of skill.

Personally, I was always amazed at the number of idiots who couldn't even avoid Flash Freeze on Hodir. That boss is so easy....

Originally posted by Antipathy

 

That would make it exactly the same as any skill in the real world. Skills take time and practice to develop. Tiger woods wasn't the best golf player in the world the first time he picked up a golf club. And different people learn skills at different rates. Some never learn them. And TBH, it sounds to me like you simply don't understand because you've had very little experience of raiding. You haven't held fealt the incredible frustration of wiping 10 times in a row on a boss that you fealt was easy because many other people in  your raid were still stuggling to move correctly, simply because half your raid lacked skill. And the most important skill in wow raiding is the ability to learn quickly - without it, you will be wiping on the early bosses again and again. With it, and even casual guilds can conquer Ulduar.

 

As for your complaints about heroics, to a large extent I agree with you. Wrath of the Lich King heroics failed badly. They are simply too easy. Most normal mode level 80 dungeons can be easily completed by a group of 78 players, and many players progress to heroics within a week of hitting 80. They are far too easy for any experienced player. It's stupid that they now offer some of the best rewards in the game - but that's Blizzard's attempt to cater to whiners.

 

As for putting crazy long grinds to get the best gear. Why? Soloers already have ways to get a fair number of decent upgrades (e.g. through the Argent Tournament). At the moment the best gear in the game is available through skill - making equal gear available through grinding would, in my opinion, cheapen the game. And what would happen - well for the truely hardcore, the progression would be obvious - they would do the grinds, and the raids, and get both sets of gear. Because that's how truely hardcore people play. So they'd still have much better gear than you. The difference is that they'd now  also have better gear than the skillful non-hardcore players.

I guess the difference between skill and "experience and knowledge" is that, I (along with 9 or 24 other people) can watch a video and greatly improve our chances on defeating a boss. That didn't mean upon watching the video I acquired some amount of skill that I didn't possess in the past, but it has helped the chances of not wiping none-the-less without practice. In terms of skill, I compare it to like playing the piano and by this regard, everybody in the game has been practicing and honing "skill" while playing their character and fulfilling their appropriate roles. Not to say you don't need to acquire this form of skill, but you cannot discount the importance of knowing what you are doing and seeing it done successfully by someone else. Most raid encounters have more to do with a combination of group coordination, fulfilling your role well, and gear.

You're quite wrong in regards to my experience in raids, I have raided once a week before and know how it feels to fail and succeed alongside my guild. The PvE in terms of raiding in WoW have never fallen short, but at the same time has been WoW's only great emphasis.

When I think in terms of a long quest lines etc. (I was thinking in terms of grind, it should be an enriched experience hence where RPG originated from), I was actually thinking more along the lines of more 1-2 hour long group type activities more so than just solo dailies/quests. More diversity would enrich the experience of the game as a whole to hardcore and casual alike. I agree that skill should be rewarded but I disagree that raiding is the ONLY way to provide a reward AND showcase skill. Why not hard quest lines that require as much "skill" then, that are equally as hard? It wouldn't cheapen the game if the best means of gear is still raiding, it'll merely add onto it because it would not be in a hardcore player's best interest to spend more time doing a long and hard quest line for 1 or 2 pieces of gear when they can get the same, if not better (even if slightly better) with less time i.e. 7-8 hours in the highest tiered raid.

Why shouldn't a casual gamer be rewarded for picking apart a long arduous quest (that was equally as hard as the hardest instance) over the course of a month with a piece that is equal or slightly less than the higher tiered pieces? A casual gamer doesn't necessarily have the option to run a raid, but its make the game fairly stale when that is their only options after they are done with the same "5-man content" for the last year aside from 30-60 minutes of a little more fun through 5 man ToC. My qualm with WoW right now is two fold, where are the new challenges (content) for the casual gamers (challenges that don't take longer than 1 1/2 hours-2 hours at a time outside of just 1 instance) and why aren't they challenging at all?

It seems all the casual gamer content is compromised by being much easier. In my opinion, there is too much emphasis on raiding for PvE in WoW when there are should be more diversity in what is supposed to be the "best MMORPG", but there isn't.

I'm not sure how much content you saw in terms of one day a week raiding. If you didn't get past Kara (TBC) or Naxx (Wotlk) then that's not really enough to understand the skill required for raiding.

However, if you want harder group (5-man) activity, then we are in agreement. The 5-mans are far too easy. And if (only if) 5-mans can be made as difficult as raids, then I've got no problem with them offering equivalent rewards.

It's just many people on this thread seem to think that difficulty can be reached purely through solo content. But that's just not practical for reasons I've already explained.

Originally posted by Leodious

 

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Originally posted by Draco91
 The original topic here was "What Do You Like About Raiding / End-Game?". One poster posted off-topic and started an argument. That argument has now spanned nearly 11 pages (not counting the first page which was still mostly on topic). There's a word for people who do that. Anyway, if it's a topic that interests you, feel free to post a thread with that as the subject. This thread however, has a different subject ENTIRELY. If the off-topic debate continues, I'm going to have to look into getting the thread locked. At this point, it's just a massive pile of troll food. Those who have remained on topic, thank you. Your opinions are interesting and valuable. The debate at hand could make for an interesting thread. Sadly, this is not that thread, and sifting through the troll food to find relevant replies is not at all interesting.

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You are right, and I apologize for helping to feed the troll.

As per your topic, I don't really like "end games" or games that use that idea. Take the example someone else had of EVE. Eve doesn't really have an endgame. Yes, you will increase in power and versatility as you continue (you don't increase in a way that feels organic to me, but that's a different story) to play, as well you should, but there is no point where you can say, "I beat the game." That's because there is no "end game" idea and no "end game" content. CCP created a massive and engaging world, and they attracted players that manage to run the world themselves. It is an ongoing set of relationships/conflicts that continues but doesn't end. Most sandbox/pvp games can give you this, but some cannot.

Take GW. One of my favorite games, to play. It is not a game that feels like a world to me, and doesn't really have a serious community to speak of until you get into, yes, "end game" pvp. Of course, you can start a max-level person and only pvp with them, in fact this is encouraged. But there are four campaigns now, and when you beat them, you've beaten the game as it is, and are only left with very controlled pvp. So even though there is a community based around the pvp, and in and out of game relationships forged as a result (which is usually good for a game), it is still the "end game" so I feel that I'm done.

EDIT:

I want to add something about EVE that makes it amazing. Your equipment will wear out over time, and you will have to get new equipment, whereas in most MMOs you can simply repair it ad infinitum. Add to that the fact that equipment is player crafted (i.e. you cannot raid pve constantly and expect to outfit yourself with the ships and lasers or whatever that you need. At least, I don't think this is the case now.) and you have, amazingly, a real and active player-run economy within this harsh pvp reality.

Players control everything that happens in the world. And that one idea is what we need in our games. The devs just need to give us those worlds.

Apology accepted, thanks for returning to the original topic :) (thanks to the rest as well, who have either just joined and are on-topic, or who are now re-focusing on the original topic again)

I agree with you, and I think that part of the reason that EVE doesn't feel like it has an end-game is that it is an open-ended game that you can train in whatever skills you like, rather than being confined to a class, which means that when you've progressed as much as you can in one skill, you still have tons of other ways that you can progress. The other reason, I think, is that the skill progression doesn't put as big of a power gap between new players and old. It's not like a lv 1 and lv 80 difference in WoW. There IS a power gap, but only to a certain extent; after that, any gap is a versatility gap. That means that players 2-4 months in can still play with the players that are 2 year vets. Finally closing that power gap and feeling like you're at the "upper end" of the game compared to the rest of the population is a big part of end game I think.

As far as players controlling the world, while I would like to see more of this in MMOs, I'm not holding my breath; a semi-free / semi-open PVP system is seemingly needed to control much of anything except economy. What would be nice is to enable players to create new quests and missions (sort of like you can in CoX, but perhaps on a deeper level). This would, at the same time, help keep things fresh; it would help soften or altogether do away with an "end game", since there would always be something new to do, as long as players continued to create new content.

Originally posted by Jairoe03

Originally posted by Draco91

 It seems that post-WoW MMOs are starting to focus more on making the leveling process faster so that end-game content can be reached more quickly. WoW itself has been taking steps to decrease its leveling time as well. Personally, I enjoy leveling a lot, and I'm not sure if I would enjoy raiding or not. Because I enjoy leveling so much, I usually have a ton of alts and jump games a lot. I've only been to level cap on DAoC (which is probably one of 10+ MMOs I've played); the closest I've come to cap in any other game is lv 64 in WoW when the cap was 70. Since it isn't likely that I'll ever find out for myself, I was wondering, what do you like about end-game and / or raiding? (I'm not just talking about WoW here; whatever game you play).

 

This is one of the few rare opportunities where I respond without reading the whole thread first and only because I been reading a lot all day. Was practicing programming C and reading about Lua and a novel on top of it all.

Anyways, before I digress too much, I would say I like absolutely NOTHING about raiding and end game and its starting to turn some popular games very 1-dimensional. I would much prefer other ways introduced in playing a game that might offer rewards on par to the "current end-game".

And whats with this concept of "end-game", whats the point of leveling then if most of the game is when I get to the maximum level? If there is so much emphasis on the end-game, why not just eliminate the leveling prerequisite and let the players have fun and get their MONEYS worth (oh I guess thats the key thing isn't it, *sigh* companies). 

I think its absurd and games should take a step back and take lessons from the earlier MMORPGs. Make achieving maximum level actually something to brag about rather than a prerequisite for access to the other "half" of the game. I used to pride myself on DAoC for being mid level 40s (think max level was 50 at the time) and I never achieved maximum level in that game, but that never stopped me from feeling good being at that level, like I am amongst the upper echelon in the world (it was a game where death penalty involved a hefty exp loss). Make death penalties actually make people NOT want to die rather then not care, it seems like all I can get mad about in regards to dying is a 1 minute run to my "corpse". I would't mind if I saw some gold missing from my corpse or a random item in my inventory or something. Make the game exciting, you developers ;)

I agree, and this seems to be the most common position taken by those who have replied to the original topic (which I am actually quite surprised at, I expected a few more opposing viewpoints). I also agree with you that the emphasis on end-game seems to belittle the journey there. I remember when leveling mattered in EQ and DAoC as well (it really doesn't anymore, as both have significantly sped up the leveling process). However, here, we have a conflict of views between two rather large groups. On the one hand, you have the group that wants less grind. That means leveling is faster, because grind is boring. On the other hand, you have the group that wants a challenge and a risk in leveling again, which the other side would consider a "grind." In reality, the MMO is a grind. You grind your way to max level (no matter how quick it is, it's still a grind, because you are repeating the same actions over and over again to progress), and when you get there, you grind your way to better gear, typically by doing the same raids over and over again. As other posters have mentioned, I think a good, long, difficult storyline to progress through would help relieve the "grindiness" of MMOs significantly. You can have gear improvements or stat improvements in there with it, but I think the focus needs to be spread out a little wider than "ZOMG more gear and more stats! NAO!"  With a bigger focus on story, you can have both, a longer and more interesting journey to max level, and interesting content after the max.

Originally posted by Antipathy

The amount of bullshit and ignorance in this thread is amazing.

 

A bunch of people who raided Everquest and vanilla wow thinking they know about current high end wow raiding and throwing around the name "Algalon" like it makes it seem they know what they are talking about.

 

Anyone who thinks WoW raiding takes absolutely no skill has never fought bosses such as Mimiron and Yog Saron on normal mode - yet alone hard modes. Those bosses are not remotely gear checks. They are all about skill. Having 10 or 25 people move in co-ordination with each-other. All in the right places and doing the right things at the same time.

 

WowProgress.com tracks raid progress. Lets look at it's 25 man statistics. It reports that 20% or the guilds it is tracking have completed the first part of Ulduar (the siege area). However, only 6% have killed the end boss Yog Saron, and only 0.58% have completed Firefighter (Mimiron hard mode).

 

It's been my experience that any guild that has the gear to clear the first four bosses (the siege) has the gear to clear Ulduar. There are no real gear check bosses. So the difference between that 20% and the 6% that have killed Yog Saron is entirely in skill. Nothing else. This contrasts heavily with vanilla wow raiding, which had lots of gear check bosses - such as Ragnaros, who you couldn't even think about defeating until you had loads of fire res gear.

 

And then we come to hard modes. Some of the hard modes do have gear checks. They include DPS races (amongst other things). But pretty much all the gear you need for hard modes is available in normal modes. So all that 6% who killed Yog Saron has to do is farm Ulduar for a month or two, and they should have plenty of gear to do hard modes. So why have only 0.58% of them done Firefighter? Surely most guilds that can clear Ulduar are capable of farming the place for a month or two and getting gear? So whilst most of them almost certainly passed the gear check, 90% of those guilds who cleared Ulduar failed to get Firefighter. Why? Lack of skill...

So then, you enjoy raiding because it presents a challenge to you, and you enjoy overcoming challenges through practice and repetition? Or do you simply enjoy improving your character with better gear? Or is it a bit of both?

Originally posted by Xyfire1

The Reason I quit WoW was mostly because of noobs ruining my raiding experience. Even with T7(10 man) in WoW, I was dealing nearly 4k dps in Naxx consistently. This is on a huntard, after nerfs, of course. Before I quit, I had 4pc T8(25 man) and barely got to use it, lol. Anyway, Ulduar isn't so Hunter friendly but I'd get over 5k mostly. There were countless numbers of people in my guild with good gear. Even just T7 25 man in ulduar, you should at least be doing 4k on any dps class but they were doing 3.5k or lower. It boils down to skill. In fact, most other classes I know /faceroll their keyboard to pull 4k dps if you have the rotation down and T7.5.

 

What I love about End Game is RAIDING! I log on only for raids. That's it. I set myself up so I sell Jewels on the AH to pay for repairs and that's it. I love to be the first, or fighting to be first, on the server to do something as a guild. Damn my friends, I quit WoW before and then they started playing. Alliance... Of course... If they told me that they were playing again I would have made them go Horde. maybe I'd still be playing.

So, one of the things you enjoy about raiding is the aspect of competition with other raiding guilds on the server? That's a viewpoint I haven't seen yet. That might be fun :)

Edit: I had to LOL at /faceroll xD nice.

Most mmo's that have one choose between personal social life, and staying competitive in game usualy lose their appeal to me rather fast at  higher levels.   I enjoy leveling at my own pace, exploring content, and being part of a small guild (group of about 12 friends) and not having to worry about recruiting a whole mess of bodies just to be able to fill slots for 20-40 man raids.

Staying competitive in some of these games has come to a point where you literally have to plan your social life around raiding, instead of just being able to log on when you have a couple of hours to spare.  A bit to hard-core for me, which is why I prefer sandbox type games centered around pvp endgame.

Antipathy, I could write a thesis about why you are wrong, but since I am relatively sure you are just trolling us, I won't.

I will give an example for you and perhaps others. Since you are using WoW, I will do the same. Heigan is a boss that is notorious for wiping groups and causing problems. However, he is exceptionally easy if the entire group remembers to move to the correct place at the correct time. This is just a gimmick. If by "skill" you mean that everyone has to move in a coordinated fashion, then a case could be made for that, I will grant. However, many five-man encounters require coordination (running behind a pillar to avoid some arcane explosion or something, for example).

"Having 10 or 25 people move in co-ordination with each-other." This seems to be your definition of skill. Therefore, you must be arguing that it takes more skill for 25 people to be doing it than for five people to be doing it. That doesn't hold water, and you are still simply arguing number of people instead of actual skill or difficulty of an encounter.

The only, hear me, only, differences between normal content and raid content the gear checks and the number of people in the room. You have to be coordinated to complete any encounter that requires a group and is worth anything. Therefore, you are still simply arguing time. It takes time to get that many people together, and especially to do so again and again to complete prerequisites.

Face it, your argument does not hold any water. Skill implies difficulty, and difficulty does not have to be large groups or "raids." It just doesn't. And it isn't in WoW, at least. And if you are going to be a jerk about doing Ulduar, you could spell Yogg-Saron correctly.

You're just one of those pixel epeen jerks. You would hate any other system because you love the idea that because you have more time to spend running those raids and getting the great gear. You think that that time spent means you deserve better things. You don't really care about skill anyway.

Originally posted by Dafong

Originally posted by darkdamsel

With the above post, I know you have to work hard for what you get in anything, but why make it that way in a game?  You go to work in RL and come home to...'work'. lol  (just a slight observation, nothing more)  ;0)

 

Alright, time to go back to my WoW-crack. lol

 

Because if something is just given to you, and everyone else by extraction, then it has no value, it has no meaning.

If everyone was given a trillion dollars, the dollar would be worthless.  So working for something gives it value.

 

This is the crux of the argument and it is why I don't play WoW anymore.

 

They have given everything to everyone and it has lost all meaning and value in having it. 

While I agree with that, for those with a shorter attention span it makes it almost pointless to take months or even years to attain what they want in any game.

Myself for example:  I do not mind a grind......just not one that is going to take me 7 months to get anywhere.  Although I cannot complain too much as there is so much to do in WoW. =0)

Not really sure where to start here...

I dont think the end game discussion should be about the merits of what people like. That's a personal preference anyhow. When it comes to end game, and I think many people fall into the same boat as I do, we've done it at different times in the past, and as time has past, our tastes have changed. You may have enjoyed PvE and now more PvP, or hell, maybe it did not change, and you still enjoy the same thing. Even if the last is the case, I dont think it invalidates that more than one playstyle should be supported.

I did the the WoW raiding thing pre-TBC, and was GL of a Naxx raiding guild. We ran 5 nights a week, probably 4-5 hours a night. It was fun stuff. Thing is, my real life responsibilities changed, and I dont have the time to commit to it. Although my taste has changed, I'm not going to say it's an any less valid or enjoyable activity, it's just not for me anymore.

I think where the problem centered, back then, was that the raiding, PvE gear was so good, it gave massive advantages in all facets of a game. If you were geared in T3 gear, you had huge advantages in PvP, and even casual doing dungeons. I think in some cases, that perception made people feel that their time in-game was devalued. Most folks just played to have fun, and I dont think gave a damn. It's not about what someone else can do, it's about what you do.

These days, I'm playing Warhammer, because I enjoy PvP, and even if there is a great repetitiveness in it, I still enjoy the possibility of different things happening, I like the unpredictiability that not playing the AI brings. Of course that's just me, not right for everyone.

So why not reward people with things that help them, and do little impact on other facets of the game? If you want to raid, great, make raid bosses drop items/gear that help you kill off the next boss, and so on? You'll be rewarded for investing your time in what you enjoy. If someone wants to PvP, let the PvP rewards give them advantage in PvP, they wont be able to jump into raiding and dominate, but they'll get rewards that suit what they enjoy. Same thing for people who are into small groups (sorry, I'd put soloists in this group) give them items that allow them to better deal with encounters in small dungeons and such.

Something like that would satisfy people who are out for gear. It'll make you better at what you choose to invest your time in, and there is no absolute "I win in all facets of the game." Those objecting, I think are lookin' for the I win.

In end-game, I enjoy the chance to do things with friends. I love PvP in my end-game these days, and probably casual PvE as I wont commit 4-5 days a week, and 4-5 hours a night to engage in it. The MMO developer who is strong enough to "win" itemization so that people can be rewarded for what they do, without impacting other facets would have a real winner on hand.

I'm not ready to say that it's all about the journey as opposed to end-game just quite yet, but with my current MMO, I've never had so many alts. I like end-game, so speed of leveling is nice, but the important thing, is that there is something engaging to do once I reach end-game, and I get rewards that support my playstyle. That's just my 2 cents though.

In reality, the MMO is a grind. You grind your way to max level (no matter how quick it is, it's still a grind, because you are repeating the same actions over and over again to progress), and when you get there, you grind your way to better gear, typically by doing the same raids over and over again.

I suppose that's accurate.

A big part of what makes games fun to players is the delight in discovering new gameplay patterns, and "grind" is basically the word players use to describe a slow rate of new patterns to delight in.  In some games the word grind isn't mentioned at all, but it's not like a game could provide an endless stream of new patterns (nor would that even be fun; part of the fun of learning patterns is the feeling of mastery after you've figured them out - if the pattern switches too much, your mastery is never rewarded.)

Originally posted by Antipathy

I'm not sure how much content you saw in terms of one day a week raiding. If you didn't get past Kara (TBC) or Naxx (Wotlk) then that's not really enough to understand the skill required for raiding.

 

However, if you want harder group (5-man) activity, then we are in agreement. The 5-mans are far too easy. And if (only if) 5-mans can be made as difficult as raids, then I've got no problem with them offering equivalent rewards.

 

It's just many people on this thread seem to think that difficulty can be reached purely through solo content. But that's just not practical for reasons I've already explained.

What does it matter how far I got in terms of raiding, raiding is raiding after all. There is a reason why I haven't gotten up to the Ulduar content, but raiding is ultimately all the same as a poster previously has said. It requires again, group coordination, gear and fulfilling the basic roles within a group (heal, dps and tank). You cannot discredit my experiences and opinions as a casual gamer because I do not have time nor interest to raid. This further proves my point that there SHOULD be more if all YOU think "real raiding" is running Ulduar or the hardest raid available. Skill goes beyond difficulty of a group effort and there should be many other difficult tasks involved than just solely Raid for PvE. That was practically the whole point of my two posts. WoW lacks diversity and does not try to cater to casual gamers all too well, which are probably the good  majority of the people paying for this game in the first place.

The only people that seem to be able to do a full raid run are the people that have all the time in the world like young kids and college students and usually those people's accounts are being paid for by the casual working class people of WoW. This second part is my guess, but its funny how WoW doesn't make hard, valid efforts in catering to what I perceive as a "big crowd" if not a "bigger crowd/majority". Again, there should be more to do than just raid that will result in some form of character development progress (sadly only measured by items at WoW's end game).

Originally posted by Leodious

Antipathy, I could write a thesis about why you are wrong, but since I am relatively sure you are just trolling us, I won't.

I will give an example for you and perhaps others. Since you are using WoW, I will do the same. Heigan is a boss that is notorious for wiping groups and causing problems. However, he is exceptionally easy if the entire group remembers to move to the correct place at the correct time. This is just a gimmick. If by "skill" you mean that everyone has to move in a coordinated fashion, then a case could be made for that, I will grant. However, many five-man encounters require coordination (running behind a pillar to avoid some arcane explosion or something, for example).

"Having 10 or 25 people move in co-ordination with each-other." This seems to be your definition of skill. Therefore, you must be arguing that it takes more skill for 25 people to be doing it than for five people to be doing it. That doesn't hold water, and you are still simply arguing number of people instead of actual skill or difficulty of an encounter.

The only, hear me, only, differences between normal content and raid content the gear checks and the number of people in the room. You have to be coordinated to complete any encounter that requires a group and is worth anything. Therefore, you are still simply arguing time. It takes time to get that many people together, and especially to do so again and again to complete prerequisites.

Face it, your argument does not hold any water. Skill implies difficulty, and difficulty does not have to be large groups or "raids." It just doesn't. And it isn't in WoW, at least. And if you are going to be a jerk about doing Ulduar, you could spell Yogg-Saron correctly.

You're just one of those pixel epeen jerks. You would hate any other system because you love the idea that because you have more time to spend running those raids and getting the great gear. You think that that time spent means you deserve better things. You don't really care about skill anyway.

You go from talking writing a thesis to calling me a jerk. I guess you can't maintain the air of civilised debate for more than a few paragraphs.

You've never experienced these encounters. So you are speaking from a position of ignorance.

I understand what you say about Heigan. He does wipe a lot of groups. But he's still designed as quite an easy introductory boss. Move correctly, and he doesn't actually do very much damage - he can easily be done by far fewer than 10 people.Apparently he can be 2 manned, so there's loads of room for screw ups. So he's an introduction to raiding difficulties. Your point sounds like someone saying "I solved a quadratic equation therefore relativity must be easy".

Rather than responding to the actual points I make, you try to create a straw man by putting words in my mouth, How do you know what I hate? How do you know how much time I spent on raiding? How do you know what sort of guild I belonged to. All are assumptions.

Let me give you some real information. I actually belonged to what I'd consider a casual raiding guild - we raided because we enjoyed raiding, not because anyone was forcing us to do it. And if we didn't feel like raiding we went and did something else. There was no minimum attendance. No one was ever kicked out of the guild for not turning up for raids. Some nights we didn't have enough people for 25 man. So what - we ran 10 man. Some nights we didn't have enough people for 10 mans. Then we went off and did something else - levelled alts, pvp'd or did heroics. Whatever. I personally chose to never raid more than 3 nights a week, since I didn't want to get too stressed about it. And yet I still managed to progress far enough to top damage meters, and the guild still progressed far enough to clear Ulduar. So is that your definition of hardcore? Maybe it is by some standards - but there were people in my guild who raided a lot less than me - some who only turned up for raids once every few weeks, and they progressed through a lot of content as well. Because they were good players.

I can think of a few times in Ulduar when I remember wiping and thinking "We can't do this boss. Our gear isn't good enough". That was in my first few weeks there. But then we got the gear, and from then on it was all about skill. Every single wipe we had was because someone in the raid screwed up.

You pretend I said "difficulty means large groups of people". Where did I say that? Did I ? Where? You are attacking straw men again. I have said difficulty cannot mean solo, since the game isn't balanced that way. I've actually got a fairly open mind as to whether it can mean 5-man. I'm not a content designer - I've not sweated blood and tears trying to making 5-man content more difficult. So all I can do is look at what is currently produced and judge it - and the current Warcraft 5-man content is actually quite easy - even if it's done in blues. So that current content doesn't deserve raid level rewards. Maybe someone can design 5-man content that does deserve the rewards because it would be truely challenging. Good luck to them - I'd look forward to it !

"It's about the journey...not the destination."

Nothing about endgame interests me.  I usually quit playing (and go play something else) until more non-grind content is released.

Originally posted by Antipathy

 

You go from talking writing a thesis to calling me a jerk. I guess you can't maintain the air of civilised debate for more than a few paragraphs.

 

You've never experienced these encounters. So you are speaking from a position of ignorance.

 

I understand what you say about Heigan. He does wipe a lot of groups. But he's still designed as quite an easy introductory boss. Move correctly, and he doesn't actually do very much damage - he can easily be done by far fewer than 10 people.Apparently he can be 2 manned, so there's loads of room for screw ups. So he's an introduction to raiding difficulties. You point sounds like someone saying "I solved a quadratic equation therefore relativity must be easy".

 

Rather than responding to the actual points I make, you try to create a straw man by putting words in my mouth, How do you know what I hate? How do you know how much time I spent on raiding? How do you know what sort of guild I belonged to. All are assumptions.

 

Let me give you some real information. I actually belonged to what I'd consider a casual raiding guild - we raided because we enjoyed raiding, not because anyone was forcing us to do it. And if we didn't feel like raiding we went and did something else. There was no minimum attendance allowance. No one was ever kicked out of the guild for not turning up for raids. Some nights we didn't have enough people for 25 man. So what - we ran 10 man. Some nights we didn't have enough people for 10 mans. Then we went off and did something else - levelled alts, pvp'd or did heroics. Whatever. I personally chose to never raid more than 3 nights a week, since I didn't want to get too stressed about it. And yet I still managed to progress far enough to top damage meters, and the guild still progressed far enough to clear Ulduar. So is that your definition of hardcore? Maybe it is by some standards - but there were people in my guild who raided a lot less than me - some who only turned up for raids once every few weeks, and they progressed through a lot of content as well. Because they were good players.

 

I can think of a few times in Ulduar when I remember wiping and thinking "We can't do this boss. Our gear isn't good enough". That was in my first few weeks there. But then we got the gear, and from then on it was all about skill. Every single wipe we had was because someone in the raid screwed up.

 

You pretend I said "difficulty means large groups of people". Where did I say that? Did I ? Where? You are attacking straw men again. I have said difficulty cannot mean solo, since the game isn't balanced that way. I've actually got a fairly open mind as to whether it can mean 5-man. I'm not a content designer - I've not sweated blood and tears trying to making 5-man content more difficult. So all I can do is look at what is currently produced and judge it - and the current Warcraft 5-man content is actually quite easy - even if it's done in blues. So that current content doesn't deserve raid level rewards. Maybe someone can design 5-man content that does deserve the rewards because it would be truely challenging. Good luck to them - I'd look forward to it !

As I said earlier, and as you yourself say when discussing solo content, difficulty in terms of skill is a subjective matter....what a priest might find difficult a paladin might think is a breeze....is subjective, and I would argue that this skills upwards.

You can check my char on EU WOW Armory, I have Firefighter achievement for 10 man, and it is was a particularly difficult boss to kill, it took me and the 10 people I was with a considerable amount of time and effort to complete.   Some might even argue skill.   I wouldn't, because it is impossible to measure skill.  Just how much skill did it take? can we quantify how much skill?  Not really.  So once you start arguing about the level of skill required you are basically arguing an unmeasurable, constantly changing subject matter.

Which is quite difficult to do.  It is like arguing who is the best guitarist or the best drummer.  A consensus will never be reached.

Originally posted by Jairoe03 

The only people that seem to be able to do a full raid run are the people that have all the time in the world like young kids and college students and usually those people's accounts are being paid for by the casual working class people of WoW. This second part is my guess, but its funny how WoW doesn't make hard, valid efforts in catering to what I perceive as a "big crowd" if not a "bigger crowd/majority". Again, there should be more to do than just raid that will result in some form of character development progress (sadly only measured by items at WoW's end game).

My server is a quite casual RP-PvP server. We sometimes laugh about how casual we are. We were just about the last server in europe to get the sunwell gem vendor - so on the casual meter, we're pretty close to 10/10. Most of the truely hardcore players migrated away from our server a long time ago, seeking better progress elsewhere. And yet I've just logged on and done a "/who warrior 80" and seen that a third of the level 80 warriors are currently at this moment in either Naxx or Ulduar. That's not even counting the people who raid on some night other than Monday. So even on my backwards little server large numbers of people raid.

A lot of people raid. I'd agree a lot of people are casual as well, including some of my close friends. But the idea that the game was designed purely for raiders is laughable. All of the levelling zones were designed for casuals. All of the 5-man content was designed for casuals. The battlegrounds were designed for casuals. Wintergrasp was designed for casuals. The Vault of Archavon was designed for casuals (it can be completed in 30 mins). The Obsidian Sanctum was designed for casuals (again 30 mins). It may surprise you, but many people who raided through TBC consider that Naxxramas was designed for casuals. The difficulty level was set pretty low, and loads of people can run it successfully.

The only content that was designed to challenge experienced players is EoE, Ulduar and (recently) the Trial of the Crusader.. That's all. The reason I left wow a short while ago was very simple - there simply wasn't enough content to interest and challenger me. I was only being challenged by Ulduar, and when you're confined to that place, the "world" of warcraft becomes very small indeed.