It seems that post-WoW MMOs are starting to focus more on making the leveling process faster so that end-game content can be reached more quickly. WoW itself has been taking steps to decrease its leveling time as well. Personally, I enjoy leveling a lot, and I'm not sure if I would enjoy raiding or not. Because I enjoy leveling so much, I usually have a ton of alts and jump games a lot. I've only been to level cap on DAoC (which is probably one of 10+ MMOs I've played); the closest I've come to cap in any other game is lv 64 in WoW when the cap was 70. Since it isn't likely that I'll ever find out for myself, I was wondering, what do you like about end-game and / or raiding? (I'm not just talking about WoW here; whatever game you play).

For me, the best endgame stuff is Dungeon content.  And the ideal MMORPG for me would revolve more around that style of small-group content, but have a much longer progression than WOW.  (WOTLK in particular had a terribly short progression for Dungeons and Heroic Dungeons.)

Raiding doesn't increase the fun parts of grouping, but does increase the bad parts of grouping.  I don't have nearly as much fun Raiding as I do in small-group content.

COX with more varied/interesting content would basically be my perfect game:

• The fun gameplay (small-group content) is available right at level 1.
  
  There's no big "gotcha!", like in WOW where you reach the end of leveling and find a completely different game. 
  
  It's not a game about endgame.  It's simply a fun game, period.
   
• Sidekicking lets me play with friends who are significantly higher/lower level than I am; we both get challenging gameplay, and we both get rewarded for it.

I'm hoping CO is exactly that: COX with more varied/interesting content.

I like group play too (I can't say much about raids since I haven't really done any). One of the reasons I like / liked (don't play anymore but still a good game) FFXI was because group play was forced, and there were enough subscribers that it was common. I liked the same about early EQ1. I tried CoX and didn't much like it. I'm not sure if it was CoX or if it's the superhero genre. It seems CO is getting mixed reactions from those who have played it so far. Might be worth keeping an eye on though I suppose.

I guess it might be worth continuing to end-game to play the group content, even if there is raid content. But raids just scare me. Raids and the insane min-maxing that goes with them. And the many, many repititions that you have to do before you finally get what you want.

Edit: I like the sidekicking system too. I didn't get to see it in action much in CoX because I was playing on a trial account that didn't allow me to form groups or reply to tells (and I actually got quite a few tells asking about groups ; ;) which is a really bad thing to do to a trial I think... but EQ2 had a very similar system that worked very well. And level synching in FFXI is nice too.

I consider raiding in the same light as I consider PvP.

Sometimes I get the urge to do it and generally I have a lot of fun while doing it.

But I don't want the entire game to be built on it.

I thrive on end-game variety; give me PvP, RvR, raid content, solo content, small group content, crafting, economics, roleplaying, hell, even toss in a freakin' in-game billiards table and the ability to chug beer and fall off mah protodrake dammit.

I want to be able to choose what I do and when I do it based purely on what seems like a good idea to me at the time. It's often not a good idea at all; (trying to sneak into UC on an alliance druid, for example) but who cares? it's all about the fun that I can have between the time I type in my login details and when I eventually wake up with "QWERTY" indented on my face.

Some games let me have fun that and that's why I still play them (WoW and EVE Online)

I get bored with the limited options available at end-game. I just cancelled my WoW subscription because end-game meant doing the same two dungeons over and over again.  Cataclysm may bring me back next year, since there will be some new content to level an alt through, but I'll quit again as soon as I reach the end.

I'll probably get back to City of Heroes now. I love coming up with new ideas and turning them into new characters, and my endless stream of alts keeps me from getting bored too quickly.

Originally posted by Axehilt

For me, the best endgame stuff is Dungeon content.  And the ideal MMORPG for me would revolve more around that style of small-group content, but have a much longer progression than WOW.  (WOTLK in particular had a terribly short progression for Dungeons and Heroic Dungeons.)

Raiding doesn't increase the fun parts of grouping, but does increase the bad parts of grouping.  I don't have nearly as much fun Raiding as I do in small-group content.

COX with more varied/interesting content would basically be my perfect game:

• The fun gameplay (small-group content) is available right at level 1.
  
  There's no big "gotcha!", like in WOW where you reach the end of leveling and find a completely different game. 
  
  It's not a game about endgame.  It's simply a fun game, period.
   
• Sidekicking lets me play with friends who are significantly higher/lower level than I am; we both get challenging gameplay, and we both get rewarded for it.

I'm hoping CO is exactly that: COX with more varied/interesting content.

I agree completley.

Unfortunately CO from all reports is a solo game all the way.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

I consider raiding in the same light as I consider PvP.

Sometimes I get the urge to do it and generally I have a lot of fun while doing it.

But I don't want the entire game to be built on it.

I thrive on end-game variety; give me PvP, RvR, raid content, solo content, small group content, crafting, economics, roleplaying, hell, even toss in a freakin' in-game billiards table and the ability to chug beer and fall off mah protodrake dammit.

I want to be able to choose what I do and when I do it based purely on what seems like a good idea to me at the time. It's often not a good idea at all; (trying to sneak into UC on an alliance druid, for example) but who cares? it's all about the fun that I can have between the time I type in my login details and when I eventually wake up with "QWERTY" indented on my face.

Some games let me have fun that and that's why I still play them (WoW and EVE Online)

Some game play is mutually exclusive.

The better you make the solo game, the more the group game suffers and vice a versa.

For example, imagine an end game with raiding, but you could solo and get anything, xp, loot, epics, etc., that the raiders could get.

"But they can raid just for fun if they want to, no one is stopping them!" seems like a retarded argument to me. No one would raid, even die hard raiders that play games just for raiding, to get items they could obtain in solo play. That would pretty much take the fun out of raiding, since it would be pointless.

Yes, you could do it "just for fun" but I doubt it's fun anymore if there's no point to it.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Some game play is mutually exclusive.

The better you make the solo game, the more the group game suffers and vice a versa.

For example, imagine an end game with raiding, but you could solo and get anything, xp, loot, epics, etc., that the raiders could get.

"But they can raid just for fun if they want to, no one is stopping them!" seems like a retarded argument to me. No one would raid, even die hard raiders that play games just for raiding, to get items they could obtain in solo play. That would pretty much take the fun out of raiding, since it would be pointless.

Yes, you could do it "just for fun" but I doubt it's fun anymore if there's no point to it.

No it bloody well is not, what kind of arse-backwards logic is that?

In order for a game to have good grouping content, the solo content must suck?
In order for a game to have good solo content, the group content must suck?

That's just .. stupid.

All you're talking about is epeen, and I could not care less about protecting the "uberness!" of some min-maxxing gimp who spends half his life raiding just so he/she can lord it over the "little people" and delude themselves into a false sense of superiority. They can have their raids, their epix and their item ladders; I really don't care about them one way or the other.

All I care about is that my playstyle is catered for.

The point is not closing the distance between a player and raids but to remove the raids completely...

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

No it bloody well is not, what kind of arse-backwards logic is that?

In order for a game to have good grouping content, the solo content must suck?
In order for a game to have good solo content, the group content must suck?

That's just .. stupid.

All you're talking about is epeen, and I could not care less about protecting the "uberness!" of some min-maxxing gimp who spends half his life raiding just so he/she can lord it over the "little people" and delude themselves into a false sense of superiority. They can have their raids, their epix and their item ladders; I really don't care about them one way or the other.

All I care about is that my playstyle is catered for.

Well the problem is that you can't have both in the sense that you can't have both balanced together.  Which is the big problem with WoW at the moment and why a lot of the raiders I know are falling off the raiding radar.

On my server in WoW, which I must admit I not even logged into for days now, of the top 10 raiding guilds from 1 year ago. 5 are dead.  Just gone, including the top raiding guild, couldn't keep enough players interested in high end raiding to continue.

This is because WoW IS easy mode, they want to give people who want to solo the same gear as people who want to raid.  Ignoring the fact that raiding is a HELL of a lot more difficult then soloing.  I don't care if it takes a couple of weeks or even months longer to get it, that isn't enough for me to spend hours of a night, with 24 other people, trying to co-ordinate a kill, and having to do this a minimum of 3 nights a week and most raid guilds run raids 5 nights a week.

If you not willing to give people a reward for that beyond having an item today instead of tomorrow, then people simply are not going to do it.

There must be a gap between raiders and non-raiders or there is no reward to raiding.  That gap can't simply be a few weeks or you are basically saying to any raid guild that takes longer then the top 3 to clear content that they are wasting their time.

Once you hit max level your character should just explode.  Want to play more start a new character.

Originally posted by Dafong

Well the problem is that you can't have both in the sense that you can't have both balanced together.  Which is the big problem with WoW at the moment and why a lot of the raiders I know are falling off the raiding radar.

On my server in WoW, which I must admit I not even logged into for days now, of the top 10 raiding guilds from 1 year ago. 5 are dead.  Just gone, including the top raiding guild, couldn't keep enough players interested in high end raiding to continue.

I have absolutely zero sympathy for raiders who quit raiding because they can no longer be "imba" like they used to be. Raiding is a choice of playstyle and should be held in equal regard as small grouping and dedicated soloing. Developers should provide alternate paths to the same goal therefore allowing people to get to said goal in the way that they most enjoy.

This is because WoW IS easy mode, they want to give people who want to solo the same gear as people who want to raid.  Ignoring the fact that raiding is a HELL of a lot more difficult then soloing.  I don't care if it takes a couple of weeks or even months longer to get it, that isn't enough for me to spend hours of a night, with 24 other people, trying to co-ordinate a kill, and having to do this a minimum of 3 nights a week and most raid guilds run raids 5 nights a week.

You know, I used to this exactly like this. I raided in WoW for ~3 years; Vanilla, TBC and (briefly) in WotLK, but my eyes were opened shortly after the release of TBC. Previously, I had the typical raider mentality; my guild deserved all the rewards we got, soloers/small groupers deserved nothing because we were the ones with the skill.

Being the premier alliance guild on our server; first to every boss kill, openers of the AQ gates, etc .. we got a lot of applications and we would sneer at peoples crappy blue gear and "welfare epics" as well as people who could only attend 4 raids a week instead of the requisite 6.

TBC changed all that for me. We jumped into Outlands and powerlevelled our way to 70, started doing 5 mans to rep-up up for heroic keys, then immediately started doing heroics in mainly green/crappy blue gear to get our raid attunements sorted. That's where epiphany struck.

Half the guild (Best raiders on the server) were incapable of completing the heroics.

Devoid of their typical safety-nets; (35 other people and a char-sheet full of uber epics) they just couldn't handle it. I must have tanked/healed heroic Shattered Halls a dozen times just to get people attuned and meanwhile I'd see those same players I'd previously guild denied membership wearing boss drops from there.

Then what happened? they removed the attunements later on and the same raiders who were incapable of doing them were the ones whining about how Blizzard was catering to the casuals.

So yeah, the whole "Raiding is HARD!" argument? I don't buy it for a second 'cos I've been there and it just isn't.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Dafong

Well the problem is that you can't have both in the sense that you can't have both balanced together.  Which is the big problem with WoW at the moment and why a lot of the raiders I know are falling off the raiding radar.

On my server in WoW, which I must admit I not even logged into for days now, of the top 10 raiding guilds from 1 year ago. 5 are dead.  Just gone, including the top raiding guild, couldn't keep enough players interested in high end raiding to continue.

I have absolutely zero sympathy for raiders who quit raiding because they can no longer be "imba" like they used to be. Raiding is a choice of playstyle and should be held in equal regard as small grouping and dedicated soloing. Developers should provide alternate paths to the same goal therefore allowing people to get to said goal in the way that they most enjoy.

This is because WoW IS easy mode, they want to give people who want to solo the same gear as people who want to raid.  Ignoring the fact that raiding is a HELL of a lot more difficult then soloing.  I don't care if it takes a couple of weeks or even months longer to get it, that isn't enough for me to spend hours of a night, with 24 other people, trying to co-ordinate a kill, and having to do this a minimum of 3 nights a week and most raid guilds run raids 5 nights a week.

You know, I used to this exactly like this. I raided in WoW for ~3 years; Vanilla, TBC and (briefly) in WotLK, but my eyes were opened shortly after the release of TBC. Previously, I had the typical raider mentality; my guild deserved all the rewards we got, soloers/small groupers deserved nothing because we were the ones with the skill.

Being the premier alliance guild on our server; first to every boss kill, openers of the AQ gates, etc .. we got a lot of applications and we would sneer at peoples crappy blue gear and "welfare epics" as well as people who could only attend 4 raids a week instead of the requisite 6.

TBC changed all that for me. We jumped into Outlands and powerlevelled our way to 70, started doing 5 mans to rep-up up for heroic keys, then immediately started doing heroics in mainly green/crappy blue gear to get our raid attunements sorted. That's where epiphany struck.

Half the guild (Best raiders on the server) were incapable of completing the heroics.

Devoid of their typical safety-nets; (35 other people and a char-sheet full of uber epics) they just couldn't handle it. I must have tanked/healed heroic Shattered Halls a dozen times just to get people attuned and meanwhile I'd see those same players I'd previously guild denied membership wearing boss drops from there.

Then what happened? they removed the attunements later on and the same raiders who were incapable of doing them were the ones whining about how Blizzard was catering to the casuals.

So yeah, the whole "Raiding is HARD!" argument? I don't buy it for a second 'cos I've been there and it just isn't.

 

Don't quote in a quote, its just shit.  Its difficult to follow and hard to respond to.

Raiders should be treated differently because it takes MORE effort to play as a Raider.....unless you are a communist and think everyone should get the same regardless of effort, most people understand that the MORE you put in the MORE you should get out.

Why is it different MMORPGs?  it isn't merely a different playstyle, it is a playstyle that requires a HELL of a lot more time and effort.

You confuse 'hard' as in being difficult to accompish, requiring skill when the truth is, it is hard because it is hard to organise, it is difficult to commit the time to, it takes time and effort to raid.  It takes no effort to solo or group, you log in when you like, you look for a random group or you go off and do your own thing.

Compared to having to log in at the same time as 24 other people, being in the same place, ALL of you knowing the tactics to every fight all of you having the right equipment levels to beat a boss mob.  Having a DKP or other loot system worked out in advance that helps your guild advance rather then randomly giving all the loot to one guy who logs in once a month and therefore isn't going to help you down that next boss you been struggling with.

It isn't about some leet skillz, it is about the effort it takes to run a decent raid guild.

Now to be honest, it sounds like you were a bit of a dick and so were the people in your guild, but that shouldn't colour your opinion about raiding.

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Originally posted by Dafong
There must be a gap between raiders and non-raiders or there is no reward to raiding. 

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Originally posted by Dafong
Raiders should be treated differently because it takes MORE effort to play as a Raider.....unless you are a communist and think everyone should get the same regardless of effort, most people understand that the MORE you put in the MORE you should get out.

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Originally posted by Dafong

Don't quote in a quote, its just shit.  Its difficult to follow and hard to respond to.

Raiders should be treated differently because it takes MORE effort to play as a Raider.....unless you are a communist and think everyone should get the same regardless of effort, most people understand that the MORE you put in the MORE you should get out.

 Why is it different MMORPGs?  it isn't merely a different playstyle, it is a playstyle that requires a HELL of a lot more time and effort.

You confuse 'hard' as in being difficult to accompish, requiring skill when the truth is, it is hard because it is hard to organise, it is difficult to commit the time to, it takes time and effort to raid.  It takes no effort to solo or group, you log in when you like, you look for a random group or you go off and do your own thing.

Compared to having to log in at the same time as 24 other people, being in the same place, ALL of you knowing the tactics to every fight all of you having the right equipment levels to beat a boss mob.  Having a DKP or other loot system worked out in advance that helps your guild advance rather then randomly giving all the loot to one guy who logs in once a month and therefore isn't going to help you down that next boss you been struggling with.

It isn't about some leet skillz, it is about the effort it takes to run a decent raid guild. 

Now to be honest, it sounds like you were a bit of a dick and so were the people in your guild, but that shouldn't colour your opinion about raiding.

Ok, we literally have opinions on the polar opposite of the debate on whether raiding is "hard" and I don't see either of us retracting those opinions, so we might as well just agree to disagree rather than get drawn into a pointless "no it isn't!" .. "yes it is!" back and forth.

I personally think that player skill should count for more than basic administration and timekeeping, but that's just me and my crazy hippy ideas of what constitutes "difficulty" .. I'd much rather reward a small group of people who pull off something spectacular than a large group of people who just manage to turn up and do something mediocre.

And yep, I was a bit of a dick back in those days, we all were. As one of the founder members of the best raiding guild, being the best geared druid on the server gave me a sense of entitlement that in hindsight I had absolutely no right to lay claim to. My guildmates were no difference. 

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Dafong
There must be a gap between raiders and non-raiders or there is no reward to raiding. 

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That depends on what is provided by raids. If the raid enrichs the raiders only, then no.

 

 

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Originally posted by Dafong
Raiders should be treated differently because it takes MORE effort to play as a Raider.....unless you are a communist and think everyone should get the same regardless of effort, most people understand that the MORE you put in the MORE you should get out.

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There is a difference between making an effort and having x amount of real life time to waste on something dull and tedious.
People 'with no life' should not be rewarded just because of that.

 

 

Yes they should, because wether you consider them 'with no life' or not is not really relevent, that is YOUR slant on the fact that they are willing to devote the time to raids that you are either not willing or not capable of devoting.

It is simply a matter of priorities, they prioritise their gaming higher then you do, should they not be rewarded for making the effort?

Of course they should, but you don't want to make the effort so believe you should get everything too.  Which isn't going to work, because those making the effort just stop making the effort.

While you might say, good....for gaming companies this isn't so good, cause these poeple have not stopped WANTING to give a game priority, they have not stopped wanting to play hardcore, they just have not found your game rewarding in that sense.  So they will move to the game that is rewarding in that sense.

This is actually a MUCH larger pool of people that most claim, most claim that the raiders are the minority, but during a previous conversation I recorded that there 114 guilds ranked for raiding on my server, with each guild consistenting of about 50 people.  Thats over 5000 people raiding content on a single server.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Ok, we literally have opinions on the polar opposite of the debate on whether raiding is "hard" and I don't see either of us retracting those opinions, so we might as well just agree to disagree rather than get drawn into a pointless "no it isn't!" .. "yes it is!" back and forth.

I personally think that player skill should count for more than basic administration and timekeeping, but that's just me and my crazy hippy ideas of what constitutes "difficulty" .. I'd much rather reward a small group of people who pull off something spectacular than a large group of people who just manage to turn up and do something mediocre.

And yep, I was a bit of a dick back in those days, we all were. As one of the founder members of the best raiding guild, being the best geared druid on the server gave me a sense of entitlement that in hindsight I had absolutely no right to lay claim to. My guildmates were no difference. 

No we don't have polar opposite views.   You view hard as requiring skill.

I have pointed out that it isn't about skill it is about the commitment of time and the effort required, not the skill.

You refuse to answer that point, instead claiming we are having a 'no it isn't....yes it is' back and forth.

Don't ignore the argument, answer it.,  Justify the claim that soloing and random grouping is equally as difficult as commiting to a raid guild, or understand that your statement that they are merely different playstyles is rubbish.

I despise raiding content and I despise raiders and the developers who cater to them even more.  I'm ready for an MMO that completely ignores them in game.  They get exclusive content and rewards in every single MMO and it's time they were left out for once.  I'll be very curious to see who will be the first to try it.  I had hoped that Bioware would with TOR, but they're too chicken shit to make any real changes in the genre.

Originally posted by Dafong

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Ok, we literally have opinions on the polar opposite of the debate on whether raiding is "hard" and I don't see either of us retracting those opinions, so we might as well just agree to disagree rather than get drawn into a pointless "no it isn't!" .. "yes it is!" back and forth.

I personally think that player skill should count for more than basic administration and timekeeping, but that's just me and my crazy hippy ideas of what constitutes "difficulty" .. I'd much rather reward a small group of people who pull off something spectacular than a large group of people who just manage to turn up and do something mediocre.

And yep, I was a bit of a dick back in those days, we all were. As one of the founder members of the best raiding guild, being the best geared druid on the server gave me a sense of entitlement that in hindsight I had absolutely no right to lay claim to. My guildmates were no difference. 

 

No we don't have polar opposite views.   You view hard as requiring skill.

I have pointed out that it isn't about skill it is about the commitment of time and the effort required, not the skill.

You refuse to answer that point, instead claiming we are having a 'no it isn't....yes it is' back and forth.

 

Don't ignore the argument, answer it.,  Justify the claim that soloing and random grouping is equally as difficult as commiting to a raid guild, or understand that your statement that they are merely different playstyles is rubbish.

Because difficulty and commitment is relative to the player and his play style.  Each PLAYS the game and each puts EFFORT into it as well.  It's not a debate that should be based on comparison, but rather on the gamers actually PLAYING the game, no matter their method.

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Originally posted by Dafong
 
Yes they should, because wether you consider them 'with no life' or not is not really relevent, that is YOUR slant on the fact that they are willing to devote the time to raids that you are either not willing or not capable of devoting.
 
It is simply a matter of priorities, they prioritise their gaming higher then you do, should they not be rewarded for making the effort?
 
Of course they should, but you don't want to make the effort so believe you should get everything too.  Which isn't going to work, because those making the effort just stop making the effort.

While you might say, good....for gaming companies this isn't so good, cause these poeple have not stopped WANTING to give a game priority, they have not stopped wanting to play hardcore, they just have not found your game rewarding in that sense.  So they will move to the game that is rewarding in that sense.

This is actually a MUCH larger pool of people that most claim, most claim that the raiders are the minority, but during a previous conversation I recorded that there 114 guilds ranked for raiding on my server, with each guild consistenting of about 50 people.  Thats over 5000 people raiding content on a single server.

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It is not about priorities or devotion.

Do you think that someone with 2 university degrees should be paied as much as someone with no qualification and 2 jobs?

The effort is not always the raw amount of time but the quality of the time spent.