Originally posted by kamenwati

So let me follow up with a philosophical question.

You have two games:

1) It takes the average player 9 months to reach max level. Once there, there is about 3 months of content at the top.

2) It takes the average player 3 months to reach the max level. Once there, there is about 9 months of content at the top.

At the end of each of these, which is a more meaningful experience for you?

In 1), you have the feeling of having fought hard to improve your character's abilities and reach the summit.

In 2), you have the feeling of having fought hard to improve your character's equipment and differentiate yourself from others at the top of the molehill.

To me, the first option is more inherently self-motivated, while the second is more based on competing with other players.

It depends on what the end-game content is. If it's 9 months of running the same dungeons over and over because the drop you want is so rare, then I would enjoy option 1 better. If there is a meaningful story and a variety of places to explore, then I don't think it matters whether I'm at end-game or mid-game. Although personally, I could play a classic EQ game where there isn't much story but there is a lot of exploration to be done, and a lot of great background lore, and be perfectly happy. It isn't about a number showing up next to your name. It's about what you are doing.

Originally posted by rozenblade1

Okay, I absolutely love FFXI...actually, my favorite part was leveling and finding parties to level with...it's a long process, but, in that game, it was worth it...

Thinking back, it makes me want to sub again.....*sighs*

...sometimes getting all nostalgic makes me depressed...nothing is the same anymore.....I can't get the connection with the games or with the other players aas I did with FFXI......hmph...

Yeah I know how you feel, Ive quit FFXI so many times to try to find something better and nothing has come close.  I guess thats why I just subbed again lol.   Well I guess ill  see how Fallen Earth is if it dont satisfy my grouping addiction I'll just have to keep playing FFXI until FFXIV comes out.

Originally posted by kamenwati

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by kamenwati

You have to realize though that this is less about game mechanics and more about the general attitudes of players. The overly competitive nature of MMO's these days lends itself to people feeling like they have to be the highest level and have the best gear ASAP.

I'm merely remininscing on the days when the general attitude was to stop and smell the roses and not be in such a rush to see the view from the top. Now it's all about efficiency, min/max-ing, reading everyone else's guides on the "best way" to do everything so that you can reach the end, get the best items, and have your character look and operate like every other.

We can blame developers for creating "meaningless" content, but does it really matter when the general attitude is to open up a guide and go from point A to point B like a good little lab rat anyway?

Again, I blame developers for facilitating such attitudes. The discrepancy between low and high level characters opens the door for people to feel the same way I do when I'm low level and push them to level as fast as possible to feel valid in the game world. Again I point out Guild Wars. You level to max and get max gear very easily and very quickly. The rest of the time you are just playing the game, stopping to smell the roses, doing things because you enjoy them, not because you feel like you have to in order to enjoy the game at a later point.

 

Philosophically, it sounds to me like the difference between someone who's waited until they've retired to see the world and someone who maybe chose a more difficult journey in life but experienced more along the way. Nothing is stopping you from enjoying a game before you've reached "retirement".

Realistically, we just come from different MMO backgrounds.

There's no power gap between a retiree and someone who is working while pursuing other interests. There is a power gap between a level 30 and a level 60. The sooner you get to max, the sooner the power gap is nullified. This power gap, it seems, is where Abrahmm's discontent lies. It isn't a matter of reaching the end, so much as breaking the power barrier between players. I tend to agree on some aspects here... but I do like the feeling of improving significantly over time. Guild Wars allows significant improvement over a short time, and significant amounts of meaningful content after the end of that improvement, which allows for both that feeling of improvement, and the closing of the power barrier. I don't play Guild Wars much anymore, but they did that part of things right (which is why I keep using it as an example now).

Originally posted by Draco91 

There's no power gap between a retiree and someone who is working while pursuing other interests. There is a power gap between a level 30 and a level 60. The sooner you get to max, the sooner the power gap is nullified. This power gap, it seems, is where Abrahmm's discontent lies. It isn't a matter of reaching the end, so much as breaking the power barrier between players.

Why is it a problem that there is a power gap? Shouldn't there be some sort of reward for effort? The only time that even seems relevant is in the case of unrestricted PvP where higher level players can go gank lowbies.

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Originally posted by JGMIII
I've always enjoyed the journey more.
When I have the whole game world to look forward to.
I hate when I'm stuck in a handful of high level zones with only Raids to look forward to.
This is why I play Games with no endgame like Eve and Ryzom.

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I hear ya. I got sucked into the "mad dash" to level cap in WoW. After a while I got sick of raiding constantly and started looking elsewhere. I learned to just slow down and enjoy the journey in LotRO, but even at my slow pace I still hit end-game there and got bored of raiding and the MoM grind.

Now I'm taking my time and enjoying Ryzom and am really looking forward to other sandbox MMOs like Earthrise and MO.

Originally posted by Draco91

Originally posted by kamenwati

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by kamenwati

You have to realize though that this is less about game mechanics and more about the general attitudes of players. The overly competitive nature of MMO's these days lends itself to people feeling like they have to be the highest level and have the best gear ASAP.

I'm merely remininscing on the days when the general attitude was to stop and smell the roses and not be in such a rush to see the view from the top. Now it's all about efficiency, min/max-ing, reading everyone else's guides on the "best way" to do everything so that you can reach the end, get the best items, and have your character look and operate like every other.

We can blame developers for creating "meaningless" content, but does it really matter when the general attitude is to open up a guide and go from point A to point B like a good little lab rat anyway?

Again, I blame developers for facilitating such attitudes. The discrepancy between low and high level characters opens the door for people to feel the same way I do when I'm low level and push them to level as fast as possible to feel valid in the game world. Again I point out Guild Wars. You level to max and get max gear very easily and very quickly. The rest of the time you are just playing the game, stopping to smell the roses, doing things because you enjoy them, not because you feel like you have to in order to enjoy the game at a later point.

 

Philosophically, it sounds to me like the difference between someone who's waited until they've retired to see the world and someone who maybe chose a more difficult journey in life but experienced more along the way. Nothing is stopping you from enjoying a game before you've reached "retirement".

Realistically, we just come from different MMO backgrounds.

There's no power gap between a retiree and someone who is working while pursuing other interests. There is a power gap between a level 30 and a level 60. The sooner you get to max, the sooner the power gap is nullified. This power gap, it seems, is where Abrahmm's discontent lies. It isn't a matter of reaching the end, so much as breaking the power barrier between players. I tend to agree on some aspects here... but I do like the feeling of improving significantly over time. Guild Wars allows significant improvement over a short time, and significant amounts of meaningful content after the end of that improvement, which allows for both that feeling of improvement, and the closing of the power barrier. I don't play Guild Wars much anymore, but they did that part of things right (which is why I keep using it as an example now).

Pretty much exactly how I feel. In Guild Wars, you can continually make your character better by acquiring new skills to use, but once you are level 20 you are capable of holding your own in PvP. This gives you the ability to nullify the power gap quickly yet still continually progress and make your character better.

My main gripe isn't that there is a power gap, but that it is so big and such a decisive factor. A level 10 has absolutely no chance against a level 80, or 70, or even a 25. They need to give players the ability to continually progress and make their characters better, but in small enough increments to where the power gap is tiny and a skilled new player has a chance against an older player.

Originally posted by Nizur

 

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Originally posted by JGMIII
I've always enjoyed the journey more.
When I have the whole game world to look forward to.
I hate when I'm stuck in a handful of high level zones with only Raids to look forward to.
This is why I play Games with no endgame like Eve and Ryzom.

---

 

I hear ya. I got sucked into the "mad dash" to level cap in WoW. After a while I got sick of raiding constantly and started looking elsewhere. I learned to just slow down and enjoy the journey in LotRO, but even at my slow pace I still hit end-game there and got bored of raiding and the MoM grind.

Now I'm taking my time and enjoying Ryzom and am really looking forward to other sandbox MMOs like Earthrise and MO.

EQ for me! and DAOC ...but I dunno if its the NEW MMO's or the way there designed but in WAR I raced crazy mad to end game...I think alot of people did its the way they designed the quest but I felt like I was constantly just running to red circles on my map no time to talk to no one!!!! .....and I am not usually like that. Also I played Anarchy Online off and on since release and still only have a 213 character.

Originally posted by kamenwati

Originally posted by Draco91 

There's no power gap between a retiree and someone who is working while pursuing other interests. There is a power gap between a level 30 and a level 60. The sooner you get to max, the sooner the power gap is nullified. This power gap, it seems, is where Abrahmm's discontent lies. It isn't a matter of reaching the end, so much as breaking the power barrier between players.

 

Why is it a problem that there is a power gap? Shouldn't there be some sort of reward for effort? The only time that even seems relevant is in the case of unrestricted PvP where higher level players can go gank lowbies.

It also completely segregates the community into subsections based on level. In WoW, you as a level 20 can't go help your level 80 friends fight a monster because you will be instantly killed. That is another reason why I felt the need to rush through the leveling, all my friends were already at max level playing the game, and I was unable to play with them because I still had to go through that whole pointless timesink. It also makes lower level content completely worthless and wasted once the player is passed that level of power.

The real question is, why have such massive power gaps?

i didn't care about the endgame until i played the endgame, then thats all the mattered

the mmo world was only exciting for the first month or two of playing an mmo thats about it

Originally posted by beeker255

Originally posted by Nizur

 

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Originally posted by JGMIII
I've always enjoyed the journey more.
When I have the whole game world to look forward to.
I hate when I'm stuck in a handful of high level zones with only Raids to look forward to.
This is why I play Games with no endgame like Eve and Ryzom.

---

 

I hear ya. I got sucked into the "mad dash" to level cap in WoW. After a while I got sick of raiding constantly and started looking elsewhere. I learned to just slow down and enjoy the journey in LotRO, but even at my slow pace I still hit end-game there and got bored of raiding and the MoM grind.

Now I'm taking my time and enjoying Ryzom and am really looking forward to other sandbox MMOs like Earthrise and MO.

EQ for me! and DAOC ...but I dunno if its the NEW MMO's or the way there designed but in WAR I raced crazy mad to end game...I think alot of people did its the way they designed the quest but I felt like I was constantly just running to red circles on my map no time to talk to no one!!!! .....and I am not usually like that. Also I played Anarchy Online off and on since release and still only have a 213 character.

Maybe its due to me being a older mmo gamer but I enjoy games that let me play my own way.

If I see a clear cut path to a "End game" I quickly lose interest. As an example I reactivated my Account in WoW when WotLK release, I went into the first area, picked up a quest and instantly got bored and left my sub to rot for Ryzom.

I like Options, I think more MMOs should drop this clear path to endgame. Certain games are trying to remedy this by letting you level through pvp or pve and for my experience with WAR so far it isnt much different.

IN a game like Ryzom I just hang out, I don;t need to rush because what I'm doing at that moment feels 100% natural to me. Same goes for Eve even though I know alot of players don't like the games setting or combat I find the game a breath of fresh air even after near two years.

What I would really like is for a game with freedom like Ryzom to also give me the content quality of a Endgame MMO. Like optional dungeons and pvp minigames but not make them madatory for everything, make them feel natural. A complete blend of old school sandbox and new school themepark. Give people options, let the game play feel natural and flow.

Maybe one day.

My fondest memories are from DAoC.  I remember fighting away solo at first and asking around if there are any groups that needed whatever I was playing at the time.  Once I finally found one they were usually out in the thick wilderness or deep down some hole of a dungeon and now I had to carefully make my way down with danger all around.  One screw up and it would set me back not only in experience loss but time as well.  Once I finally get down to them I would then be able to relax because now I have a safe place to kill and gather loot and experience in a relaxed setting.  I can kick back and BS with the rest of the group after a few pulls because healers/casters would run out of mana, hell even the combat was slow enough that I can toss in some dialogue while fighting.  It was always about the people and having a good journey together especially since the journey took forever.

To me it just seemed like at that time people took them selves less seriously.  Everybody had a healthy sense of humor.  Nobody would have a knee jerk reaction to things people would say.  Nowadays people just seem like they want to shoot from the hip and I think that's what ruins the communities nowadays.  All the people that are inclined to socialize get turned off by the lack of like minded individuals who take jokes and humor for what it is.

The average age of the MMO player is dropping, this is why you think player attitudes to MMO’s have changed.

Teenagers take themselves very seriously, they have very little self referential humour. They shoot from the hip and find it hard to relate to a sense of community.

It is becoming easier for those younger and younger to join a MMO. You used to need a credit card, now you often don’t. You used to need a PC, now often a console will do. MMO’s were designed with PC RPG games in mind, now they are designed with console beat erm ups in mind.

The whole genre is going tweenie and so more and more of us are washed up here, wondering what happened to MMO’s? There are still some good MMO’s out there but each new release takes a step further to console button crunching, easy as possible game play, casual play style, solo only style games.

The whole problem is, most of the journey sucks ass.  I don't enjoy doing the same quests, only with different text and different mobs.  The only difference between most mobs are the skins.  How much fun can a person have doing that?  I had a lot of fun in FFXI, because it was my first.  I had a lot of fun leveling in WoW for the first time.  After that, leveling in any game became the most boring aspect of the game.  If the journey was more interesting, and the quests were fun and challenging, then I wouldn't mind. 

Too bad the journey isn't interesting, and the quests aren't fun or challenging.  Go kill 20 boars.  Go deliver this note to this guy.  Save me, and bring me back to town.  These type of quests are unavoidable, but devs haven't tried anything to improve them.  The big problem is the AI of MMOs are horrible.  If the AI was improved to be somewhat close to a single player game, I'm sure many people would love the journey. 

As it is right now, most mobs in MMOs are dumb as hell.  I can kill all regular mobs in MMOs with my eyes closed (literally).  That's just not fun to me.  This is why I need PvP in a MMO, or I wouldn't bother to play. Until PvE is on par, or close to a single player game, leveling up will be boring as hell. 

I still don't care about the end game.

Maybe that's why I haven't been a subscriber to any MMO longer than few months since 2004.  Excluding LOTRO.

Storylines matter to me. I figure the writers put some effort into writing the quests, so I'll put a little effort into reading them and following the stories they tell. Since PvP means "Kill anything with a life bar" nowadays, I stick with PvE. I take my own sweet time, currently in WoW once again. I try to hit up every faction I can, including going after racial mounts by starting from the very beginning of allied races if necessary. Once I've done it all and seen it all on my way to level cap, I call it a day. Raids to me mean playing the games at the whim of other people. I'll group up when necessary on my journey, but when I have to schedule days and times to do crap that lasts upwards of 5 hours and beyond, only to wind up getting ZIP at the end because the final boss didn't drop anything I could use, it stops being fun.

So, yeah, I prefer the levelling game. I don't even pay attention to the levelling itself, only so far as to allocate a new talent point, or hit up my trainers. Other than that, I just get quests, do the ones I can, hold the ones I can't in reserve until I can do them, and just play. To me, endgame is when I click "Exit to desktop" the last time and move on to something else.

Still doesn't.  I despise the MMORPG traditional end game.

Originally posted by kamenwati

You know, back when you actually enjoyed the journey of leveling itself, even when it meant camping the same spot in a dungeon for hours on end, because it was enough of a rush just to get to see new areas of the game and get new abilities?

Back when you slowly, over time, amassed wealth and possessions, and there were clear differences between the players who put in the effort and those who didn't?

When dying had penalties, and you quickly learned to be protective of your character and not send him charging foolheartedly into battle?

You know, when you actually felt like you had achieved something and felt an attachment to your avatar?

There was no prize waiting for you at the end. There were no freebies or pats on the back to remind you that You're Special.

Your prize was in fact the time that you had spent reaching the end and the friendships and memories you formed.

Sigh.

Get off my lawn.

hmm i don't have to remember, because is still don't give a s**t about the endgame ....

I just wish it was possible to do all the content in a game like WoW without doing some of the content a billion times.

I'd love to do all the "endgame" stuff once or twice and then quit, but you pretty much can't do that.

We need more MMO's W/O endgames.

Originally posted by Ekibiogami

We need more MMO's W/O endgames.

I assume you were being sarcastic, but if not, how's that possible?