Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Dafong

Since when did immersion = real life?

 You playing as a Dark Elf Mage....seen any of them in real life recently have you?

 It is a game you are supposed to be immersed in, not real life.

 

Immersion is a measure of how closely  the game experiences matches the reality you're familiar with.

Fantasy worlds revolve around suspension of disbelief.  Basically they take something fantastic and try to design it in a believable way by having aspects of it mimic reality.  As the wiki article puts it, designed in a way which has a "semblence of truth."  It seems real.

im⋅mer⋅sion  /??m?r??n, -??n/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-mur-zhuhn, -shuhn] Show IPA
Use immersion in a Sentence
–noun 1. an act or instance of immersing.
2. state of being immersed.
3. state of being deeply engaged or involved; absorption.
4. baptism in which the whole body of the person is submerged in the water.
5. Also called ingress. Astronomy. the entrance of a heavenly body into an eclipse by another body, an occultation, or a transit. Compare emersion (def. 1).
 

I believe your point is non-factual Axehilt.

And I think the OP should have stated his statment better, I don't think that PVP kills "immersion" per say, but it deffinitly kills the fun for alot of people.

1. makes people a little btchy and supports a bad community.

2. people are always after number 1 gear, which means they do raids only for themselvs, they cheat on loot drops or complain when they don't get what they want.

3. It forces the devs to worry about endgame more, because with PVP your just going to level untill you are at max then try and get max gear, and so when devs are building exp. packs and stuff instead of saying "maybe we should spend our 1000 hours on questing, cool new magic, player housing, guild banners...and the list goes on. They say "all right. people have started to get the best gear thats out there, so now we have to get better gear, so we'll spend 700 hours working on that, and a few new battle grounds and the last 300 maybe getting to some new quest"

Thats what happens, that is one reson I love FFXI and I'm gunna love FFXIV, sure they had little "area's" that you could battle, but it wasn't the focus of the game, and it had better community, better content, and when new content came out I wasn't worried "man did they forget player housing and add a new skill onto ninja"

Just my two cents I guess....

Originally posted by Dafong

Well I think it does.

 

Once you add an element of Player Vs Player people NEED to min/max, and the moment you begin min maxing instead of developing a character naturally in a way which suits you, you destroy any immersion.   The simple fact is, no one likes to lose.  You might be good at losing, take it in your stride, not think too much of it, clap the winner on the back and say well done.....you still didn't like losing. 

 

Losing in PvE means nothing, you got beat by a machine that can do 10 million calculations a sec...big whoops, can it paint? can it write music (which has feeling) can it invent anything?  No it can't, so who cares if it can do 10 trillion calculations a sec and kick our ass in PvE.  Losing at PvE is a matter of game balance and design.  Losing at PvP is a matter of pride.

 

If I am going to PvP I am going to want to be the best I can be, not the second best, not the third best, but the absolute best and that means min/max'ing it means reading up on the web which is the best build to use in PvP so that I can win as much as possible.

 

PvP = Death of Immersion.

This really doesn't make a lot of sense to me to try and blame PvP in general for this when you consider some people do the exact same thing far as min/maxing or research cookie cutter builds for PvE content especially when it comes to endgame raiding.

Originally posted by Dafong 

The problem with PvP is the requirement to min/max to survive which removes you entirely from any imaginative ideas and forces you into a tried and tested set of playing ideals that completely removes any pretence that you are playing an RPG at all.  Now it all becomes about which is the best stat, which is the best strategy and what are the best items.

It starts to become an FPS where you want to level the playing field as much as possible.  There is no diversity there is no originality that isn't instantly copied if it is successful.

Getting past the point that PVP is often optional in MMORPGs, min/maxing (making efficient decisions) permeates nearly every aspect of reality.  This includes PVE in MMORPGs as others have stated.

If you want a game where pre-game planning and progression don't influence PVP, play a FPS.
(many of the better ones even have Roles to Play.)
If you want the same but don't want an FPS, play Fighting games.
Don't want PVP?  Don't PVP.

I'm just having trouble seeing your point really.  If certain mechanics get in the way of your fun, play games without those mechanics!

If you put levels in a game, players minds will turn to levelling. It’s not PvP that does that. PvP can provide an immersive mid to end game experience if done right.

Losing in PvE means nothing, you got beat by a machine that can do 10 million calculations a sec...big whoops, can it paint?

Yes, they can. And getting more sophisticated by the minute.

can it write music (which has feeling)

Feeling is subjective, but yeah computer AI can write music.

can it invent anything?

Yes, computer AI can be used to create/invent things and find possibilities.

No it can't, so who cares if it can do 10 trillion calculations a sec and kick our ass in PvE.  Losing at PvE is a matter of game balance and design.  Losing at PvP is a matter of pride.

If I am going to PvP I am going to want to be the best I can be, not the second best, not the third best, but the absolute best and that means min/max'ing it means reading up on the web which is the best build to use in PvP so that I can win as much as possible.

PvP = Death of Immersion.

So it might kill the immersion for you and some others. Some take it too personally aka "matter of pride", but many also don't. Actually, it would be possible to put in AIs that would kill majority of players. The fact is that AIs in MMOs just happend to be very poor to make the game easier and probably due to other issues. Player vs. player interaction to me is the only aspect that makes MMOs worth the while. I just could not play games like EVE, if it did not have FFA PvP. It would be pointless to me. Yes, this is very subjective matter. 

Here is an interesting article of robots doing PvP and evolving while at it:

Robots evolve to deceive one another

Originally posted by Axehilt

Dafong, if you won't accept the cup/hammer example, how about UFC Martial Arts? 

Fighters in UFC don't all have the same stats.  Some participants are just outright stronger or more agile than others.

Additionally, the fighting styles they choose also aren't balanced.  Out of the thousands of styles of martial arts only a tiny minority of them are viable in UFC.

That not enough?  How about comparing World War 2 tanks between the Germans, Japan, USA, and Russians?

Balance doesn't exist in real life, so an imbalanced game doesn't necessarily hurt immersion.

I could only wish at seeing more imbalance in MMORPG as in real life, unfortunaly people are not able to coop with imbalance, I mean imagine people actualy playing a character they truly want to play and have fun with, nah lets take the route most current MMO's are taking and lets try to balance every profession, so that no one really needs to creat a unique character but just take what is best, which makes this genre less immersive as anyone regardless how much time he or she can or will spend most get at to the same point because that is what the game dictate's you to do.

I think even in PVP people want to be unique, yet the game forces you most of the time to not be unique, unless you are okay with not being able to compete with others in PVP.

Originally posted by Reklaw

Originally posted by Axehilt

Dafong, if you won't accept the cup/hammer example, how about UFC Martial Arts? 

Fighters in UFC don't all have the same stats.  Some participants are just outright stronger or more agile than others.

Additionally, the fighting styles they choose also aren't balanced.  Out of the thousands of styles of martial arts only a tiny minority of them are viable in UFC.

That not enough?  How about comparing World War 2 tanks between the Germans, Japan, USA, and Russians?

Balance doesn't exist in real life, so an imbalanced game doesn't necessarily hurt immersion.

I could only wish at seeing more imbalance in MMORPG as in real life, unfortunaly people are not able to coop with imbalance, I mean imagine people actualy playing a character they truly want to play and have fun with, nah lets take the route most current MMO's are taking and lets try to balance every profession, so that no one really needs to creat a unique character but just take what is best, which makes this genre less immersive as anyone regardless how much time he or she can or will spend most get at to the same point because that is what the game dictate's you to do.

I think even in PVP people want to be unique, yet the game forces you most of the time to not be unique, unless you are okay with not being able to compete with others in PVP.

Well don't take my post in isolation.

Without balance, games suck ass.   Things become so arbitrary and disconnected from the decisions you make that you may as well not even play the game.

Without balance, you can't choose the character you truly want to play.  Because that character sucks, and players with half your skill are doing better than you with the overpowered class.

So it's less about people "cooping" with imbalance.  It's that games genuinely suck when they're not balanced.

Originally posted by Dafong

Well I think it does.

 

Once you add an element of Player Vs Player people NEED to min/max, and the moment you begin min maxing instead of developing a character naturally in a way which suits you, you destroy any immersion.   The simple fact is, no one likes to lose.  You might be good at losing, take it in your stride, not think too much of it, clap the winner on the back and say well done.....you still didn't like losing. 

 

Losing in PvE means nothing, you got beat by a machine that can do 10 million calculations a sec...big whoops, can it paint? can it write music (which has feeling) can it invent anything?  No it can't, so who cares if it can do 10 trillion calculations a sec and kick our ass in PvE.  Losing at PvE is a matter of game balance and design.  Losing at PvP is a matter of pride.

 

If I am going to PvP I am going to want to be the best I can be, not the second best, not the third best, but the absolute best and that means min/max'ing it means reading up on the web which is the best build to use in PvP so that I can win as much as possible.

 

PvP = Death of Immersion.

This is like having the choice between lazertag and paintball and choosing paintball and saying you don't like paintball because it hurts. Maybe the setting at the paintball place is more to your liking, but the fact is, is that there are games dedicated to PvE, so if PvP is ruining your experience its because you have chosen to let that happen, or you cant find a game you like that caters to your preference to PvE.
I certainly think you’re entitled to your opinion and preferences, but frankly I think your pain is self inflicted.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Reklaw

Originally posted by Axehilt

Dafong, if you won't accept the cup/hammer example, how about UFC Martial Arts? 

Fighters in UFC don't all have the same stats.  Some participants are just outright stronger or more agile than others.

Additionally, the fighting styles they choose also aren't balanced.  Out of the thousands of styles of martial arts only a tiny minority of them are viable in UFC.

That not enough?  How about comparing World War 2 tanks between the Germans, Japan, USA, and Russians?

Balance doesn't exist in real life, so an imbalanced game doesn't necessarily hurt immersion.

I could only wish at seeing more imbalance in MMORPG as in real life, unfortunaly people are not able to coop with imbalance, I mean imagine people actualy playing a character they truly want to play and have fun with, nah lets take the route most current MMO's are taking and lets try to balance every profession, so that no one really needs to creat a unique character but just take what is best, which makes this genre less immersive as anyone regardless how much time he or she can or will spend most get at to the same point because that is what the game dictate's you to do.

I think even in PVP people want to be unique, yet the game forces you most of the time to not be unique, unless you are okay with not being able to compete with others in PVP.

 

Well don't take my post in isolation.

Without balance, games suck ass.   Things become so arbitrary and disconnected from the decisions you make that you may as well not even play the game.

Without balance, you can't choose the character you truly want to play.  Because that character sucks, and players with half your skill are doing better than you with the overpowered class.

So it's less about people "cooping" with imbalance.  It's that games genuinely suck when they're not balanced.

You not getting my point, mainly because I might not be able to come across in what I mean in English.
 

Like in real life there is a balance one can achieve, you already gave the example of martial arts, as anyone can start in martial arts but not everyone regardless how much they want to master it might never, hopefully this makes it more clear what I mean with real life imbalance that I would like to see in MMORPG's. Would that atract a large majority of players, I don't think so, but hey doesn't the majority already have their balanced games? So not to worry.........

To me MMORPG are far to balanced in the way that it only takes TIME instead of some real gaming efforts.

I think the OP is right in one aspect, a game should either focus on PvE or PvP. Few games if any got both things really good, and when they try to balance between them they just screw the game up.

PvP and PvE are both fun but either we should get two games or the game should try something like the PvE only skills of Guildwars.

The balance issues is very important in PvP and not in PvE. They both demands very different skills and PvE games are very close to old fashion pen and paper RPGs (or should at least be) while PvP games should be closer to FPS games instead.

Character customization could be huge and very oddly in a PvE game, in PvP games it is combat oriented skills that matters.

I prefer Guildwars for PvP myself and EQ2 for PvE right now. I rather have the games splitted, when they aimed for best they tend to compromise and that just ain't good enough for me.

The alternative is to have 2 different character sheets with totaly different skills, one that works in PvE and another for PvP.

Originally posted by Loke666

I think the OP is right in one aspect, a game should either focus on PvE or PvP. Few games if any got both things really good, and when they try to balance between them they just screw the game up.

PvP and PvE are both fun but either we should get two games or the game should try something like the PvE only skills of Guildwars.

The balance issues is very important in PvP and not in PvE. They both demands very different skills and PvE games are very close to old fashion pen and paper RPGs (or should at least be) while PvP games should be closer to FPS games instead.

Character customization could be huge and very oddly in a PvE game, in PvP games it is combat oriented skills that matters.

I prefer Guildwars for PvP myself and EQ2 for PvE right now. I rather have the games splitted, when they aimed for best they tend to compromise and that just ain't good enough for me.

The alternative is to have 2 different character sheets with totaly different skills, one that works in PvE and another for PvP.

I disagree with this in every particular.

PvP oriented games NEED a good, solid PvE aspect in order to thrive. It allows you to practice combat skills, gather resources, etc. in an entertaining way. PvP focused games must have the economical aspects fleshed out immensely in order to be Meaningful and Fun. Why battle over territory when really there isnt anything in the territory to fight over? With a solid PvE core to the PvP game, you can battle over areas with the best monsters and best loot and try to control them.

I also disagree about your stance on balance. There is no reason why a game could not be balanced for both PvE and PvP using the same skill sets. None.

Also, PvP games should NOT be close to an FPS game. At all. If I wanted to bunny hop, circle strafe, etc. Id go play Counterstrike. I dont want to be required to do those things when fighting in a PvP MMORPG.

The above post is horrible and shouldnt be listened to by developers at all.

Originally posted by Reklaw

Like in real life there is a balance one can achieve, you already gave the example of martial arts, as anyone can start in martial arts but not everyone regardless how much they want to master it might never, hopefully this makes it more clear what I mean with real life imbalance that I would like to see in MMORPG's. Would that atract a large majority of players, I don't think so, but hey doesn't the majority already have their balanced games? So not to worry.........

To me MMORPG are far to balanced in the way that it only takes TIME instead of some real gaming efforts.

Oh, alright.  Well that I mostly agree with.

But that's not really game balance.  Game balance is a measure of how many of the decisions in a game are viable (at a competitive level.)

What you're talking about is closer to game depth.  A game is deep when it's still strategically interesting, even after you've invested years of practice into it.  Essentially it's the "easy to learn, difficult to master" motto you hear some games talk about.

Either that or you merely want Time Spent Playing to be less important, and Player Skill more important.  Which I usually agree with, but isn't always the best choice for making a successful MMORPG (like you said.)

 I only have one thing to say:

Games are about fun, PvP is fun for some and not others. If you don't find it fun don't participate. There's a nice easy fix for your problem.

Originally posted by HJFudge

PvP oriented games NEED a good, solid PvE aspect in order to thrive. It allows you to practice combat skills, gather resources, etc. in an entertaining way. PvP focused games must have the economical aspects fleshed out immensely in order to be Meaningful and Fun. Why battle over territory when really there isnt anything in the territory to fight over? With a solid PvE core to the PvP game, you can battle over areas with the best monsters and best loot and try to control them. 

This is just outright wrong.

Millions of players play PVP-only games in other genres.  A PVP-only MMORPG works just as well.

Planetside would be a good starting point.  It's a PVP-only MMOFPS with zero PVE, but where battles occur over control of very large continents of territory.  You fight over bases which provide vehicles and act as spawn points, and if they'd done the "Daily Game" feature correctly you'd even care about efficiently holding as much ground as possible for as long as possible.

"I also disagree about your stance on balance. There is no reason why a game could not be balanced for both PvE and PvP using the same skill sets. None."

The reason is that PVE gameplay differs from PVP.  And when that's true, Balance (which is already hard to achieve in an asymmetrical game) becomes impossibly expensive to achieve in a game.

If a game truly wanted to balance its skills in PVE and PVP it would have to force both types of opponents to play by the same rules.  In the majority of MMORPGs PVE mobs don't fight by the same rules because you have concepts like aggro and taunt that don't exist for PVP opponents (and when they do exist, as in COX, they're not the same exact mechanic.)

Even with the same rules, PVE mobs aren't going to target players in the same way real humans target players in PVP.  So the two gametypes just aren't the same, and balance can never be fully achieved because the two systems invariably operate under different circumstances.  (but for what it's worth, true balance can't be fully achieved in any game...the goal is simply to get the game to be as balanced as possible.)

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by HJFudge

PvP oriented games NEED a good, solid PvE aspect in order to thrive. It allows you to practice combat skills, gather resources, etc. in an entertaining way. PvP focused games must have the economical aspects fleshed out immensely in order to be Meaningful and Fun. Why battle over territory when really there isnt anything in the territory to fight over? With a solid PvE core to the PvP game, you can battle over areas with the best monsters and best loot and try to control them. 

 

This is just outright wrong.

Millions of players play PVP-only games in other genres.  A PVP-only MMORPG works just as well.

Sure, in other genres PvP-Only works great. FPS games like Halo, RTS's like Starcraft, all good, successful games. But this is the MMORPG forums. This thread is discussing PvP in MMORPG games.

Planetside would be a good starting point.  It's a PVP-only MMOFPS with zero PVE, but where battles occur over control of very large continents of territory.  You fight over bases which provide vehicles and act as spawn points, and if they'd done the "Daily Game" feature correctly you'd even care about efficiently holding as much ground as possible for as long as possible.

Once again, you are discussing an FPS. its a very different genre than MMORPGs. I tried PlanetSide...I just didnt enjoy it. I recognize that some people like FPS games, and I hate to belabour the point but we arent TALKING about FPS. Even MMOFPS. We are talking about a specific genre: MMORPG

"I also disagree about your stance on balance. There is no reason why a game could not be balanced for both PvE and PvP using the same skill sets. None."

The reason is that PVE gameplay differs from PVP.  And when that's true, Balance (which is already hard to achieve in an asymmetrical game) becomes impossibly expensive to achieve in a game.

You have a point on this. One day I would like to see the PvE and PvP gameplay become closer...but as long as every single MMORPG uses Aggro Radius, Tanking, etc...your point will stand.

 

If a game truly wanted to balance its skills in PVE and PVP it would have to force both types of opponents to play by the same rules.  In the majority of MMORPGs PVE mobs don't fight by the same rules because you have concepts like aggro and taunt that don't exist for PVP opponents (and when they do exist, as in COX, they're not the same exact mechanic.)

Once again, a point, but I dislike the taunt concepts and aggro and other things and want to see them done away with or revamped heavily.

Even with the same rules, PVE mobs aren't going to target players in the same way real humans target players in PVP.  So the two gametypes just aren't the same, and balance can never be fully achieved because the two systems invariably operate under different circumstances.  (but for what it's worth, true balance can't be fully achieved in any game...the goal is simply to get the game to be as balanced as possible.)

 

I disagree with this. PvP and PvE gameplay can be balanced...you just have to merge how the two work. One idea is to make it so that Movement and running around and jumping like crazy (which most PvPers do in order to try to get client to server lag to work to their advantage and provided 'misses' for their opponents) simply dont work. Redo the way movement works in combat.

 

A closing point:

This attitude is one of the reasons most MMORPG's coming out SUCK in the PvP department. Look at Darkfall. As a PvP MMORPG game, it fails utterly and completely because the system is designed as an FPS. Such a thing is fine if your goal is to make an MMOFPS. But FPS concepts just Do Not Work in an MMORPG game. Darkfall has other problems too, such as a lack of any real economic system to speak of, etc.

 

EvE does a great job in one respect with Combat: it isnt FPS but it is involved and takes skill. Too bad its very slow paced and there are other issues that Im not fond of. I still play it.

 

Innovation will NOT come by thinking "This cant be done because of X Y or Z.

Why do you feel MMORPGs can't be done with the same PVP-only gameplay Planetside had?

It's possible.  It's just nobody's done it yet.

When implemented correctly MMORPG-style Combat is both fun and deep.

Not all MMORPGs have deep combat.  In fact that's one of WAR's biggest failings: it's a PVP-focused game with shallow combat.  Most who played it will vaguely explain to you WAR "isn't fun", but few understand the concrete reasons it fails to feel fun to people.

But again, a PVP-only MMORPG is totally viable.

"Innovation will NOT come by thinking "This cant be done because of X Y or Z."

I found this comment ironic.

I didn't say "Balancing PVE and PVP can't be done" in my post.  I merely explained the pros/cons of attempting to do so, pointed out one method of drastically improving PVP/PVE balancing, and pointed out (the obvious) that you can never achieve flawless PVP/PVE balancing because humans and AI think/act differently.

You, however, simply said a PVP-only MMORPG couldn't happen.  No explanation.  Just that it's impossible.  It can't happen.

Originally posted by Dafong

There is a certain amount of imagination that is required to play RPG games.  Whether they are MMO or on a table top.

The problem with PvP is the requirement to min/max to survive which removes you entirely from any imaginative ideas and forces you into a tried and tested set of playing ideals that completely removes any pretence that you are playing an RPG at all.  Now it all becomes about which is the best stat, which is the best strategy and what are the best items.

 

It starts to become an FPS where you want to level the playing field as much as possible.  There is no diversity there is no originality that isn't instantly copied if it is successful.

The sad and natural thing about MMO"RPG"s is that some people want to play the "Godlike Hero" (or villain), and cant settle for experiencing a story about a lesser person, who might still be a hero or villain. They want to be the best and cant settle for anything less than succes at everything they do. If they know they are going to lose they wont even bother.

Ive played table top RPGs with "perfect" characters and Ive played them with "flawed" characters and Ive played them with the most useless "waste of paper and dice rolls" chararacters. And I will have to say that as far as role playing goes, it was the " flawed and useless" characters that were the most entertaining and challenging. And it was also those that I enjoyed the most. Even if we rarely finished a scenario as it was intended.

Should be said that most of the "flawed" characters where handed to us by the GM, but playing a character where you had to get to know the person and act like that person is far more fun than breezing through a scenario where you character is tailormade for succes.

In an MMO we start out with perfect characters, unless we put some stats wrong. And pretty much the only difference is in the name. And in most games we are forced or coerced into taking the same path to the end. That doesnt leave much space to roleplay.

On top of that, the rewards for succes are usually gear with almost as much power as your character. (Seems like a lvl 1 could do almost as well as a level "120" if he had the same gear and the same (only weaker) abilities, or atleast the gear is as or more important than how you specialize).

And that gear tends to be the same for everyone, depending on how far they have gone in gathering it. All of this is the same wether you pvp or pve.

A far greater reason for the lack of immersion is metagaming.

Whenever you go look at a website for clues or walkthroughs to defeat certain dungeons or guides on how to specialize a character you kill your own sense of immersion. That was partly whe the magic of everquest was lost to me. And its definatly the reason why diversity usually goes tits up.

Woops think I went ranting there for a bit. Allow me to get back on point.

Small scale pvp forces you to min/max to win. Large scale not at all. The more people you have fighting the less you stats matter and the more you tactics matter. With a few exeptions, Hit points being the biggest.. you ofcourse also need to be able to damage your opponent with your spells or attacks, but the actual damage is less important. As long as your abbilities work.

The biggest min/maxxers Ive seen (myself included) is when people play Rogue/Assassin like classes. That partlicular class lives for the 1 on 1 fight or atleast for the quick kill and subsequent escape. Though again there is some room for how you approach the task. I still remember about a handfull of  assasins from DAoC and their individual tactics. And the only reason for that was their approach to combat. Well possibly also cause they had quite some success and their name was broadcast in world chat when they got a kill.

I also remember some friendly assasins, partly because of their skill and partly because of their character.

Wooops back on track again.

In PvE you get all the trouble with only 1 way to kill a boss or maybe there is 1 other way but im the leader and we use this one. And you gotta have this much of that type of gear and resistance to join "The Perfect Plan" and "The Perfect Gear"

In small scale pvp you get a few different cookie cutter groups that is always set up with the same classes and usually they have the same skills and the same gear. "The Perfect Group"

In large scale pvp things dont have to be perfect. Its more important to think and move fast and if you can do that you wont be forced to do things a certain way. There are ofcourse games that wont allow you to take such liberties as thinking. But in most of the large scale pvp games Ive played there was room for that (3 out of 4).

Think I better stop this post here before I get sidetracked again

I don't think that PvP destroys immersion, but its more of the fact that PvE and PvP cannot coexist with the current design of MMOs.  Its not just a developer fault, but there just isn't the technological foundations to create the core for such a game.

Originally posted by HJFudge

*edit* lots of stuff, but Aggro and Taunt was mentioned as a silly mechanic for pve *edit* 

 

While its wierd thing that kills immersion more than anything else for pve It would truly suck if the mobs always went for the healer cause they are smart.... Atleast if they changed it for existing games overnight. But if the rules were exactly the same for PvP & PvE and both mobs and players had the same abilities and strengths and weaknesses it should be possible to win vs mobs. The only difference between people and mobs would then be intelligence and stats. And since mobs are stupid you would just have tougher mobs. Also your healer might not be your enemies biggest worry.

Some games have tried adding some level of intelligence to their mobs. Actually most games have done that with the aggro mechanic. Whoever does the most damage/healing is at the top of their list. Some games have spells and attacks do aggro damage aswell with a value that is different from the hp value of the attack or heal. And some games have added a certain aggro value to certain spells in certain encounters so if you try to disable the mob you get hated lots.

Aaaanyways if computer AIs and players behaved exactly the same there wouldnt be any need for pvp. But they dont so we still need pvp for a real challenge. atleast until that brief moment before AIs get smarter than us and start pwning us.. until they get bored and play with themselves for a real challenge... EvE where players come to watch the AIs duke it out. (not to be confused with Eve online :P)

Originally posted by thinktank001

I don't think that PvP destroys immersion, but its more of the fact that PvE and PvP cannot coexist with the current design of MMOs.  Its not just a developer fault, but there just isn't the technological foundations to create the core for such a game.

The main complaint from the experienced pvp'ers in a game when a new expansion comes out is: Gah more PvE grinding.

That is because an expansion usually means new more powerful gear to collect and possibly more levels. And in most MMOs with PvP its the PvP that is the endgame after you got the gear you wanted. I wouldnt call myself a hardcore PvP'er but I dont want to spend 6 months doing PvE to get all the new gear when was at the top of my game a week ago. Its not that I mind PvE all that much. But if I was busy enjoying PvP I really dont need the headache of not being able to get the gear that is now needed cause of some annoying random item generator or bad luck on loot rolls. Sure its fun to go through a dungeon once in a while, but some games have made it so frustrating to get stuff and at the same time made it imperative that you get it that its no fun at all.

Also when a game has an expansion they tend to invalidate old items, classes, skills, builds, and tactics as competitive options as the new stuff is twice as good. Its especially bad when a class gets reduced to a relic. That just leaves you passed over for groups or to roll a new character.

Also it really sucks having to buy a PvE expansion for a game with PvP in it. A PvP game should have as few expansions in it as possible and they should be free. They have to be free if the PvE content is insignificant.

A pure PvE game can have as many expansions you want.. Though for both kinds of game I think its good to leave it alone after a 5-10 years and make a new game. By then the graphics would be outdated and it would be hard in many cases for new players to catch up.

Also the more new stuff you add to a game makes it harder and harder to balance.

Even P&P RPGs make a new rulebook every few years. This is a good idea as it lets the game creators rebalance everything from the start. Cant tell you how many times Ive seen some old race or class be neglected as new and more exciting stuff was added leaving them weak and unfit for their role in the virtual world.