Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by bloodaxes

An example would be if wow would be selling mounts in a cash shop that drop from bosses, those that have 1% or less chance to drop. Would you prefer to have a unique/rare mount or let other be able to pay and get it easily?

 

LOL! The mounts you can get from the WoW TCG are epic mounts and you can't even get them from ANY boss in the game. It just blows me away how this has been right under most people's noses and they never even noticed.

Sure we noticed. I don't like that card lottery nonsense. Bad is bad, but worse is worse. Cryptic IS going to be selling game-changing items.

http://news.bigdownload.com/2009/07/16/champions-online-to-support-micro-transactions-at-launch/

"Most of them will be for non-gameplay affecting items like costume additions, action figures, and the like. You can also spend money on things like renaming one of your characters. You can also purchase items that do affect gameplay but Cryptic adds, "Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play."

 The question is: How remarkably difficult, time-consuming, or frustrating will it be to 'earn' those items? It won't be easy, because then no one will BUY them.

 

Roper also said this:

 

'The idea is wanting to be able to have things there that players can get if they want to, but they don't negatively impact the balance of the game. It's not like we're expecting players to go and purchase things through micro-transactions that then give them some huge leg up. All those things I think people get worried about, but really the focus is on having things that are fun, cosmetic or are things that are more account-wide and maintenance based.'"
 

 

 

 

If people buy items that have gameplay effects, it negatively effects the balance if I haven't had the time to actually earn it in the game yet and they beat me in PvP because of their increased stat boosts or extra effects or whatever it ends up being.

Originally posted by TheStarheart

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by bloodaxes

An example would be if wow would be selling mounts in a cash shop that drop from bosses, those that have 1% or less chance to drop. Would you prefer to have a unique/rare mount or let other be able to pay and get it easily?

 

LOL! The mounts you can get from the WoW TCG are epic mounts and you can't even get them from ANY boss in the game. It just blows me away how this has been right under most people's noses and they never even noticed.

Sure we noticed. I don't like that card lottery nonsense. Bad is bad, but worse is worse. Cryptic IS going to be selling game-changing items.

http://news.bigdownload.com/2009/07/16/champions-online-to-support-micro-transactions-at-launch/

"Most of them will be for non-gameplay affecting items like costume additions, action figures, and the like. You can also spend money on things like renaming one of your characters. You can also purchase items that do affect gameplay but Cryptic adds, "Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play."

 The question is: How remarkably difficult, time-consuming, or frustrating will it be to 'earn' those items? It won't be easy, because then no one will BUY them.

 

Roper also said this:

 

'The idea is wanting to be able to have things there that players can get if they want to, but they don't negatively impact the balance of the game. It's not like we're expecting players to go and purchase things through micro-transactions that then give them some huge leg up. All those things I think people get worried about, but really the focus is on having things that are fun, cosmetic or are things that are more account-wide and maintenance based.'"
 

 

 

 

If people buy items that have gameplay effects, it negatively effects the balance if I haven't had the time to actually earn it in the game yet and they beat me in PvP because of their increased stat boosts or extra effects or whatever it ends up being.

Well, if we are to believe the quote, then those items will not be for sale.  All we can do is assume, though.  Only Cryptic knows whats going to be available on the RMT.  Guess its a waiting game to see if MMO Doubter is nuts or correct.

I for one will be staying away from this game. I have a feeling its going to go up in flames like their other titles. So why waste the money right?

Me and my friends and the friends of my friends all are against item shops.  I know some people that are going to try this game but the literal second they put in any item that helps people lvl faster or gives them stat boosts or gear their going to quit.

Originally posted by Aganazer 

...

 For the MT shop to be a worth while business venture then it would need to generate money. If the items in the shop cost more money to develop than they generate in income, then its would be costing more money than its making. It would be a failure and they would close the shop. The only way that the shop would remain is if it is profitable. That's how business works, right? For the MT shop to remain in business it would have to generate enough money to cover the development of its own MT shop items plus some profit for Cryptic.

....

That's exactly the core problem with the RMT though. In order to be viable and profitable, not only will it take resources from the core game (which is under debate on whether they would have been available or not without the RMT), but the core game itself needs to be tuned in such a way so as the RMT items to be deemed necessary. And the best way to do it is to make the items in the RMT appealing somewhere down the line and not right away.

Originally posted by renshu1287

I for one will be staying away from this game. I have a feeling its going to go up in flames like their other titles. So why waste the money right?

CoX went up in flames?  I don't see any other titles Cryptic has put out.

Didn't Cryptic put out a buttload of content for CoX at no additional cost?  Compared to other MMOs, how many expansion packs did you have to buy for CoX?  I find it difficult to believe that the company will do a 180 on its business model.

Originally posted by Xasapis

In order to be viable and profitable, not only will it take resources from the core game

That is the basic idea that I don't agree with. If the MT shop was consuming resources from the core game then it would be a failure and the shop would close. Why would they want it if it reduced their overall game income?

You don't add a business model unless it operates under a positive balance. It would need to be self sufficient (or better) for it to be a viable business model. I've never seen a store that could stay in business unless it had more income than costs. Development of the MT items is one of those costs.

If the MT shop operates on a positive balance then your sub money has nothing to do with the content in the shop. The content in the shop is developed with shop money. It wouldn't ever have existed if the game were sub only with no shop. In the end, all it does is give us more options.

Its almost like lifetime sub option. If Cryptic were to have never offered the lifetime sub at all, what would have been the difference? People would then be paying monthly and many of them would have paid more. What the lifetime sub option did was give us consumers another option. We can of course, not purchase it and we would be none the better for it. When given the choice I would rather have more options rather than less. I can decide for myself if its worth the purchase.

Originally posted by Aganazer

The MT income will allow Cryptic to make more money. Some of that money will go into the development of the game. Some will go into the development of new MT shop items.

Sorry, I can't buy that for one second.  Most of the RMT schemes I have seen thrust on games lately have produced nothing above and beyond what is normally turned out.  In fact it looks to have normal developer time redirected away from making support content to that of making additional sales content.

If a developer needs more money to create more, then raise the subscription price and show people what they are getting for those extra dollars.  Lay out a plan and detail it.  No more of this bullshit that is will somehow enable them to do more in some unknown theoretical way. 

I don't see any details about how the extra money from RMT will help cryptic make a better game.  I don't see any additional benefits to players over that of a game which gives 100% access with a normal subscription fee. 

The end result is that RMT encourages developers to remove content from the game and hold it hostage for a price.  There is no benefit to players in this.  None.  Developers just want more money and they are willing to say anything to get it.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Aganazer

The MT income will allow Cryptic to make more money. Some of that money will go into the development of the game. Some will go into the development of new MT shop items.

 

Sorry, I can't buy that for one second.  Most of the RMT schemes I have seen thrust on games lately have produced nothing above and beyond what is normally turned out.  In fact it looks to have normal developer time redirected away from making support content to that of making additional sales content.

If a developer needs more money to create more, then raise the subscription price and show people what they are getting for those extra dollars.  Lay out a plan and detail it.  No more of this bullshit that is will somehow enable them to do more in some unknown theoretical way. 

I don't see any details about how the extra money from RMT will help cryptic make a better game.  I don't see any additional benefits to players over that of a game which gives 100% access with a normal subscription fee. 

 

The end result is that RMT encourages developers to remove content from the game and hold it hostage for a price.  There is no benefit to players in this.  None.  Developers just want more money and they are willing to say anything to get it.

 

 

Reading through this thread, these are the same arguments I've made countless times against many an opponent on the CO boards AND these MMORPG boards -- but lets just cut to the chase here and just say what everyone is really wanting to say.

I don't want to pay more then a monthly subscription for items that really should be included in the game I paid for.

Or lets refine it to : I don't want to pay more.

Microtransactions for subscription games is a gray area.  Noone likes it, but its kind of in the middle,  some people that like playing the game see's another character with an item or costume piece.... they don't want to spend the money, but they really like it.  They wonder to themselves "Why oh why do they charge extra for that?"  and the simple answer is -- to make you want to buy it.

And that isn't revenue, its greed.  They can toss out a mini expansions or costume packs which muddies the MT feel and makes it seem more like a complete content pack then nickel and dime costume pieces and items.  I don't like saying "my subscription game has an item mall"   ... and really, who would like saying that?

So yeah, aganazer, maybe the money comes back to them for development, maybe they get that new pony they wanted as a child..  but I know one thing is for sure.  If you give me a choice between pay or free... I'll happily take free --- thats why we argue.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

And that isn't revenue, its greed.  

Hate to tell you but all companies run on greed.  Greed.  Profit.  Revenue.  it's all the same.  The goal is to rake in as much as possible.  Now you typically rake in the most amount of money if you satisfy your customer base.  If you upset them, then yes, you lose money.

Companies are not some benevolent entities that want to bring happiness in your life by developing wonderful games. Development of quality games are the result of wanting to make lots of money.  

People here are discussing how RMT + Subs are unacceptable.  Perhaps.  The marketplace will determine that.  If people keep buying CO then the market has decided it is acceptable.  If people don't buy it and Cryptic fails, then the market has also spoken. What I find curious is how people label said developers as evil conspirators whose only goal is to drain every penny from every gamer's pocket.  They are just normal people who want to make as much money as possible.  We all do.  And we try different ways to maximize our own profit.  

I am not justifying RMT/Sub Models.  Everyone has a tolerance level of how much they are willing to spend.  Cryptic is testing those waters.  I say, power to them if they can make more money.  If they end up messing up their game because of it?  Better luck next time and try a less controversial method of raising revenue.

Originally posted by SpectralHunt

Originally posted by maskedweasel

And that isn't revenue, its greed.  

Hate to tell you but all companies run on greed.  Greed.  Profit.  Revenue.  it's all the same.  The goal is to rake in as much as possible.  Now you typically rake in the most amount of money if you satisfy your customer base.  If you upset them, then yes, you lose money.

Companies are not some benevolent entities that want to bring happiness in your life by developing wonderful games. Development of quality games are the result of wanting to make lots of money.  

People here are discussing how RMT + Subs are unacceptable.  Perhaps.  The marketplace will determine that.  If people keep buying CO then the market has decided it is acceptable.  If people don't buy it and Cryptic fails, then the market has also spoken. What I find curious is how people label said developers as evil conspirators whose only goal is to drain every penny from every gamer's pocket.  They are just normal people who want to make as much money as possible.  We all do.  And we try different ways to maximize our own profit.  

I am not justifying RMT/Sub Models.  Everyone has a tolerance level of how much they are willing to spend.  Cryptic is testing those waters.  I say, power to them if they can make more money.  If they end up messing up their game because of it?  Better luck next time and try a less controversial method of raising revenue.

Hey don't get me wrong, I didn't say Cryptic is the only greedy company, I know what it is, and I'm just pointing it out.  A lot of people get it twisted and think cryptic is adding microtransactions for their benefit.  Thats not the truth.  Whether you like it or hate it, at least know what it is that you are liking or hating.    Its funny to me to see some people wanting to justify MTs to make the game seem more crowd pleasing.....   hey if you can put up with MTs, thats fine, but it was never "cool" to have MTs.  

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Hey don't get me wrong, I didn't say Cryptic is the only greedy company, I know what it is, and I'm just pointing it out.  A lot of people get it twisted and think cryptic is adding microtransactions for their benefit.  Thats not the truth.  Whether you like it or hate it, at least know what it is that you are liking or hating.    Its funny to me to see some people wanting to justify MTs to make the game seem more crowd pleasing.....   hey if you can put up with MTs, thats fine, but it was never "cool" to have MTs.  

You worded this post better. :)

I do agree Cryptic isn't adding MTs to benefit the consumers.  Well, that's not totally true.  It does benefit the company if consumers are happy which usually means the service is improved.  But yeah, if they could just collect money from the subscribers without lifting a finger, they'd do that.  Heck, I'd do that. :D

If they offer a set of clown costume pieces for $1-2 (and its applied across your entire account not just one char).  I'm OK w/ that.

If they offer some rare blueprint that takes more than 2 hours of questing/raiding to get, for anything less than $10 then i have a problem w/ that.

As long as they keep the costume pieces extremely niche (stuff which they otherwise wouldnt have added to the game). 

And keep the in game items priced high enough to discourage casual use, so that the people buying them really do want them & have to buy them because they dont have the time to grind it (or as sort of a punishment / negative to keep just the lazy away).

I think we are going to have to see what they actually put on this item mall to properly judge what Cryptic is up to. Since we don't know, those of us against it could be surprised to find that they put nothing on there but some costume pieces that are not that interesting. Those who are defending it may be surprised to find that 90% of the best costume items are on the item mall along with items that do affect gameplay. Whenever they get around to revealing what is in their item mall, we will know.

What bothers me is this:
1. Getting back to my original topic, Cryptic solicited feedback about RMT in a forum post and have so far ignored the 4000+ posts in the thread for more than a month.
2. They have left the item mall out of the open beta, so nobody will really know the impact it will have on the game until after launch.

If I was Cryptic, and if my Item Mall really was going to be limited in such a way that it would not affect gameplay and everything, I would have released details about it by now. I would have nothing to hide. Cryptic is being... well... cryptic. That should make you wonder.

Originally posted by CayneJobb

I think we are going to have to see what they actually put on this item mall to properly judge what Cryptic is up to. Since we don't know, those of us against it could be surprised to find that they put nothing on there but some costume pieces that are not that interesting. Those who are defending it may be surprised to find that 90% of the best costume items are on the item mall along with items that do affect gameplay. Whenever they get around to revealing what is in their item mall, we will know.

What bothers me is this:
1. Getting back to my original topic, Cryptic solicited feedback about RMT in a forum post and have so far ignored the 4000+ posts in the thread for more than a month.
2. They have left the item mall out of the open beta, so nobody will really know the impact it will have on the game until after launch.

If I was Cryptic, and if my Item Mall really was going to be limited in such a way that it would not affect gameplay and everything, I would have released details about it by now. I would have nothing to hide. Cryptic is being... well... cryptic. That should make you wonder.

That's very fair.  I too am curious why they haven't made an official statement yet.  I suppose they are still wondering how players feel about it.  But the longer they keep potential customers in the dark, the more they might get upset.  Who knows?  Maybe the beta testers should complain more?  

I just think the whole debate about whether having MTs with subs are right or wrong seems pointless.  Cryptic has already decided on it.

Originally posted by SpectralHunt

Originally posted by CayneJobb

I think we are going to have to see what they actually put on this item mall to properly judge what Cryptic is up to. Since we don't know, those of us against it could be surprised to find that they put nothing on there but some costume pieces that are not that interesting. Those who are defending it may be surprised to find that 90% of the best costume items are on the item mall along with items that do affect gameplay. Whenever they get around to revealing what is in their item mall, we will know.

What bothers me is this:
1. Getting back to my original topic, Cryptic solicited feedback about RMT in a forum post and have so far ignored the 4000+ posts in the thread for more than a month.
2. They have left the item mall out of the open beta, so nobody will really know the impact it will have on the game until after launch.

If I was Cryptic, and if my Item Mall really was going to be limited in such a way that it would not affect gameplay and everything, I would have released details about it by now. I would have nothing to hide. Cryptic is being... well... cryptic. That should make you wonder.

That's very fair.  I too am curious why they haven't made an official statement yet.  I suppose they are still wondering how players feel about it.  But the longer they keep potential customers in the dark, the more they might get upset.  Who knows?  Maybe the beta testers should complain more?  

I just think the whole debate about whether having MTs with subs are right or wrong seems pointless.  Cryptic has already decided on it.

They may have decided to have a MT store.  But they can still & most probably will be swayed in how far they take it by the feedback.  I doubt they're oblivious to the fact that there are thousands of threads & 10s of thousands of posts on the net from ppl who dont like the idea.  It's probably the most discussed area of the game.

Originally posted by CHATTER

Originally posted by SpectralHunt

Originally posted by CayneJobb

I think we are going to have to see what they actually put on this item mall to properly judge what Cryptic is up to. Since we don't know, those of us against it could be surprised to find that they put nothing on there but some costume pieces that are not that interesting. Those who are defending it may be surprised to find that 90% of the best costume items are on the item mall along with items that do affect gameplay. Whenever they get around to revealing what is in their item mall, we will know.

What bothers me is this:
1. Getting back to my original topic, Cryptic solicited feedback about RMT in a forum post and have so far ignored the 4000+ posts in the thread for more than a month.
2. They have left the item mall out of the open beta, so nobody will really know the impact it will have on the game until after launch.

If I was Cryptic, and if my Item Mall really was going to be limited in such a way that it would not affect gameplay and everything, I would have released details about it by now. I would have nothing to hide. Cryptic is being... well... cryptic. That should make you wonder.

That's very fair.  I too am curious why they haven't made an official statement yet.  I suppose they are still wondering how players feel about it.  But the longer they keep potential customers in the dark, the more they might get upset.  Who knows?  Maybe the beta testers should complain more?  

I just think the whole debate about whether having MTs with subs are right or wrong seems pointless.  Cryptic has already decided on it.

They may have decided to have a MT store.  But they can still & most probably will be swayed in how far they take it by the feedback.  I doubt they're oblivious to the fact that there are thousands of threads & 10s of thousands of posts on the net from ppl who dont like the idea.  It's probably the most discussed area of the game.

Right.  So argue about what should or should not be in the store.  There's no reason to complain about the store itself when that's already been decided and won't be changing.  

Originally posted by SpectralHunt

Originally posted by CayneJobb

I think we are going to have to see what they actually put on this item mall to properly judge what Cryptic is up to. Since we don't know, those of us against it could be surprised to find that they put nothing on there but some costume pieces that are not that interesting. Those who are defending it may be surprised to find that 90% of the best costume items are on the item mall along with items that do affect gameplay. Whenever they get around to revealing what is in their item mall, we will know.

What bothers me is this:
1. Getting back to my original topic, Cryptic solicited feedback about RMT in a forum post and have so far ignored the 4000+ posts in the thread for more than a month.
2. They have left the item mall out of the open beta, so nobody will really know the impact it will have on the game until after launch.

If I was Cryptic, and if my Item Mall really was going to be limited in such a way that it would not affect gameplay and everything, I would have released details about it by now. I would have nothing to hide. Cryptic is being... well... cryptic. That should make you wonder.

That's very fair.  I too am curious why they haven't made an official statement yet.  I suppose they are still wondering how players feel about it.  But the longer they keep potential customers in the dark, the more they might get upset.  Who knows?  Maybe the beta testers should complain more?  

I just think the whole debate about whether having MTs with subs are right or wrong seems pointless.  Cryptic has already decided on it.

Maybe, but maybe they are considering dropping the idea altogether.

Players have a chance to affect not only this game's development, but the future of MMOs in general. It's time to say no to being nickel and dimed to death for stuff that should be put in the game as part of normal development.

Originally posted by SpectralHunt

Originally posted by CHATTER

Originally posted by SpectralHunt

Originally posted by CayneJobb

I think we are going to have to see what they actually put on this item mall to properly judge what Cryptic is up to. Since we don't know, those of us against it could be surprised to find that they put nothing on there but some costume pieces that are not that interesting. Those who are defending it may be surprised to find that 90% of the best costume items are on the item mall along with items that do affect gameplay. Whenever they get around to revealing what is in their item mall, we will know.

What bothers me is this:
1. Getting back to my original topic, Cryptic solicited feedback about RMT in a forum post and have so far ignored the 4000+ posts in the thread for more than a month.
2. They have left the item mall out of the open beta, so nobody will really know the impact it will have on the game until after launch.

If I was Cryptic, and if my Item Mall really was going to be limited in such a way that it would not affect gameplay and everything, I would have released details about it by now. I would have nothing to hide. Cryptic is being... well... cryptic. That should make you wonder.

That's very fair.  I too am curious why they haven't made an official statement yet.  I suppose they are still wondering how players feel about it.  But the longer they keep potential customers in the dark, the more they might get upset.  Who knows?  Maybe the beta testers should complain more?  

I just think the whole debate about whether having MTs with subs are right or wrong seems pointless.  Cryptic has already decided on it.

They may have decided to have a MT store.  But they can still & most probably will be swayed in how far they take it by the feedback.  I doubt they're oblivious to the fact that there are thousands of threads & 10s of thousands of posts on the net from ppl who dont like the idea.  It's probably the most discussed area of the game.

Right.  So argue about what should or should not be in the store.  There's no reason to complain about the store itself when that's already been decided and won't be changing.  

Not really.  People who say they hate the idea in general probably make a stronger statement to Cryptic than those who say they're accepting of it but dont wanna be nickel & dimed.  Even if Cryptic won't remove it because of that, they will still take it into account when figuring out how mild to make it.

The thread has had it's "sticky" status removed by someone at Cryptic. They are trying to remove it from the front page.

Originally posted by Irishoak

The thread has had it's "sticky" status removed by someone at Cryptic. They are trying to remove it from the front page.

That's encouraging....