Originally posted by Netzoko

 I honestly believe 95% of people who bitch about healthcare reform have NO idea whats actually in the bill. The sheer ignorance spewed at townhall meetings and Fox news propaganda just spreads the misinformation.

I honestly believe 95% of people who are for this healthcare bill have NO idea what's actually in this bill, INCLUDING the senators and congressmen that are voting on them.  They actually admit to not having read the whole bill, our president admitted to not have read or understood the whole bill a day after he gave a full primetime speech on it.

Seriously, you are getting mad at the wrong people, and being totally partisan.  American people are mad because

1) the government officials who should be working for us are not listening,

2) the government officials who should represent the people are not representing us, but instead trying to represent the government,

3) the government officials who should read the bills they are voting for are not reading and understanding them, and are giving speeches and talking points without really knowing the full in's and out's of the bills,

4) if the government officials can't understand the bills, how do they expect ordinary citizens to understand this 1,000+ pages of mess?

People want reform, both parties have talked about it, but neither parties have proposed the right reform.  They're both too busy catering to the corporations and special interest groups, and the bills that should be about reform are filled with loopholes and pork.  This isn't the reform we need.

Originally posted by Ekibiogami

Originally posted by declaredemer

If you support competition and choice in the health care insurance industry, then YOU --indeed, you-- need to lobby YOUR duly elected representative.

 If not, we are going to lose choice, competition, and cost-reduction in the health care insurance industry.

 

Why do you think were marching On mass to stop them at townhalls, and Writeing in to tell them No?

The bills are what will kill Choice, Competition, and Costs will skyrocket.

Will kill choice? 

What choice do you have right now but to either go with an -individual plan- which if you have a pre-existing condition you may just be out of luck, with extremly high premiums that could exclude certain illnisses.  Or, Group health plan, where your choice depends on your employer and what plan they deceide to provide for the company at any given time.  Its not like you can just pick any plan knowing you will be able to keep it for as long as you wish.

Exactly, Earthgirl.  And those individual plans are not even tax-deductible.  The system current hits the regular American (not government employee, not corporate employee, not individually wealthy) the hardest with the highest costs, least coverage, no tax deductions, pre-existing nonsense, and little recourse when under-insured.

It is really about helping the American that does not benefit from a large employer-based plan such as the government, major corporations, etc.

Choice is something they should be reforming, and unfortunately they opt to push for a government takeover instead.  Yes we need more choices.

1) We need to be able to buy insurance across state lines, why this hasn't been done I don't know.  This will open up a world of competition and competition always push price down, just look at how price changed when AT&T finally got competition.  I used to pay over $60 a month for long distance calling plans, now it's $20.  Competition will really help, state & government beaurocracy needs to get out of the way because they're the reasons why we can't buy across state lines.

2) Those with pre-existing conditions that can't get insurance from a private company should be offered insurance by the government, at competitive pricing.  I'm 100% fine with government handling this and giving people insurance they *need*.

Originally posted by Mardy

 they opt to push for a government takeover instead. 

A "government takeover."  This is just ridiculous. 

Originally posted by declaredemer

Originally posted by Mardy

 they opt to push for a government takeover instead. 

 

A "government takeover."  This is just ridiculous. 

So out of what I said, this is the only thing you could quote and comment on?  And you wonder why the debate & discussion goes nowhere.

Show me how the current healthcare bill is not a government takeover.  I'm talking about the current bill, not what they are *thinking* about removing.

Originally posted by Mardy

Choice is something they should be reforming, and unfortunately they opt to push for a government takeover instead.  Yes we need more choices.

1) We need to be able to buy insurance across state lines, why this hasn't been done I don't know.  This will open up a world of competition and competition always push price down, just look at how price changed when AT&T finally got competition.  I used to pay over $60 a month for long distance calling plans, now it's $20.  Competition will really help, state & government beaurocracy needs to get out of the way because they're the reasons why we can't buy across state lines.

2) Those with pre-existing conditions that can't get insurance from a private company should be offered insurance by the government, at competitive pricing.  I'm 100% fine with government handling this and giving people insurance they *need*.

 

 

Competion is good to lower the price, that's true.  But government run program also do the trick.  Just take electricity for example.  Here, Hydro-Quebec (goverment run business) make us pay 1/3 (or less, depending of where you are) of what you guys probably pay for your electricity. 1 month of heating during winter cost me between 50 and 70$ wich is a complet joke.  ALL the profit go back to everyone of us without worry.

Well recently we had a little problem with it. Fucking hydro  was about to give money to private school (friends of the PDG) but everyone saw that and now they are not allowed to give charity to anyone.  That's how it is supposed to be. We the people tell them what to do to a certain degree.  Try telling that to a private business.

There are probably a whole lot of gramatical error in my text, sorry about that.

Originally posted by Mardy

Choice is something they should be reforming, and unfortunately they opt to push for a government takeover instead.  Yes we need more choices.

1) We need to be able to buy insurance across state lines, why this hasn't been done I don't know.  This will open up a world of competition and competition always push price down, just look at how price changed when AT&T finally got competition.  I used to pay over $60 a month for long distance calling plans, now it's $20.  Competition will really help, state & government beaurocracy needs to get out of the way because they're the reasons why we can't buy across state lines.

2) Those with pre-existing conditions that can't get insurance from a private company should be offered insurance by the government, at competitive pricing.  I'm 100% fine with government handling this and giving people insurance they *need*.

 

 

The problem with #2)  With Insurance you are spreading the personal financial risk over a large group, the bigger the better.  Folks pay into this, and what you get is a "pool of money" which can be drawn from by those who need medical care.  I will not go into this concept to deep since you probably understand how this works already.  Now if the government only handles those who have pre-existing conditions ..... where do you think the money will come from to cover them?

Originally posted by Mardy

Originally posted by declaredemer

Originally posted by Mardy

 they opt to push for a government takeover instead. 

 

A "government takeover."  This is just ridiculous. 

 

So out of what I said, this is the only thing you could quote and comment on?  And you wonder why the debate & discussion goes nowhere.

 

Show me how the current healthcare bill is not a government takeover.  I'm talking about the current bill, not what they are *thinking* about removing.

The debate goes nowhere because this is not a government takeover.  Now you want me to prove a negative?  I know you never took "argumentation."  I did.  When you make a claim, you must support that claim.  YOU have the burden.  It is YOUR burden to show ME and this COMMUNITY how the bill is a "government takeover."  

You are gullible, and the Republican party plays on your gullibility.  You will believe anything if it sounds right (from "death taxes" to "death panels" to "government takeover").

It is just plainly silly. 

Originally posted by Earthgirl

Originally posted by Ekibiogami

Originally posted by declaredemer

If you support competition and choice in the health care insurance industry, then YOU --indeed, you-- need to lobby YOUR duly elected representative.

 If not, we are going to lose choice, competition, and cost-reduction in the health care insurance industry.

 

Why do you think were marching On mass to stop them at townhalls, and Writeing in to tell them No?

The bills are what will kill Choice, Competition, and Costs will skyrocket.

 

Will kill choice? 

What choice do you have right now but to either go with an -individual plan- which if you have a pre-existing condition you may just be out of luck, with extremly high premiums that could exclude certain illnisses.  Or, Group health plan, where your choice depends on your employer and what plan they deceide to provide for the company at any given time.  Its not like you can just pick any plan knowing you will be able to keep it for as long as you wish.

You do realise EVERYTHING you just listed as Bad is in place because of the Government regulateing it right?

This system we have is Not free market. Not even close. But its better than this alternitive.

And I find it funny that the countrys were trying to Copy are all Turning In Mass from the system yall want.. I thought we were supposed to stop being aragent and lissen to the rest of the world now?

Also. How is this supposed to lower costs? Or increase Coverage? When the government is Chokeing the insurance companys to death?

We can Just ignore the Trillions the government is in the Hole for the systems that are in place.. Yeah they will do it Right This time. Good plan people, Good Plan.

Originally posted by Earthgirl

 

The problem with #2)  With Insurance you are spreading the personal financial risk over a large group, the bigger the better.  Folks pay into this, and what you get is a "pool of money" which can be drawn from by those who need medical care.  I will not go into this concept to deep since you probably understand how this works already.  Now if the government only handles those who have pre-existing conditions ..... where do you think the money will come from to cover them?

Since it's government-run, wouldn't it just be paid for by tax dollars like Medicare/Medicaid?  I mean what we want is for those with pre-existing conditions to be covered and treated equally like the rest of us.  They'll still pay their share, their deductibles, and rest covered by the government like how they are running the Medicare.

The end result we all want, as Americans, is to be able to help those that need help right?

Originally posted by declaredemer 

It is just plainly silly. 

It's my opinion and you don't have to agree with it.  But personally I think your 1 line responses are equally silly and ridiculous.  I find absolutely no need for me to argue over word semantics or try to discuss solutions to people who have their minds set already that this 1,000 page bill is the best for this country.

Originally posted by Mardy

Originally posted by declaredemer 

It is just plainly silly. 

It's my opinion and you don't have to agree with it.  But personally I think your 1 line responses are equally silly and ridiculous.  I find absolutely no need for me to argue over word semantics or try to discuss solutions to people who have their minds set already that this 1,000 page bill is the best for this country.

It is very difficult to argue with simple terms that ignore the greater complexity.  "Government Take-over" "Death Panels"

To argue against that takes time and effort and in all honesty the people who say those sorts of things aren't interested in hearing the arguments anyway, or they wouldn't be spouting such nonsense. 

So yeah its difficult to hold a debate with someone who offers up such opinions.

Originally posted by Dafong

It is very difficult to argue with simple terms that ignore the greater complexity.  "Government Take-over" "Death Panels"

 

To argue against that takes time and effort and in all honesty the people who say those sorts of things aren't interested in hearing the arguments anyway, or they wouldn't be spouting such nonsense. 

 

So yeah its difficult to hold a debate with someone who offers up such opinions.

I totally agree.  And, this is not being offensive but the total truth:  I feel less intelligent.  I am serious that I think my IQ has decreased because of this "debate."  I have provided figures.  I have provided numbers.  I have provided rationale arguments.  I have explained different health care systems.  I have discussed tax consequences.  I have shown why the employer-based model for profit is not sustainable.  I have demonstrated that Americans receive less care, inferior quality care, and more expensive care than any advanced and many second world countries.

Still, however, I get "government takeover" and "socialism."  

I am sad.  Sacred.  Terrified.  And, as I said, less intelligent now.

Originally posted by Mardy

Originally posted by Earthgirl

 

The problem with #2)  With Insurance you are spreading the personal financial risk over a large group, the bigger the better.  Folks pay into this, and what you get is a "pool of money" which can be drawn from by those who need medical care.  I will not go into this concept to deep since you probably understand how this works already.  Now if the government only handles those who have pre-existing conditions ..... where do you think the money will come from to cover them?

 

Since it's government-run, wouldn't it just be paid for by tax dollars like Medicare/Medicaid?  I mean what we want is for those with pre-existing conditions to be covered and treated equally like the rest of us.  They'll still pay their share, their deductibles, and rest covered by the government like how they are running the Medicare.

 

The end result we all want, as Americans, is to be able to help those that need help right?

Agree with you on the end result.  But would it not make more sense if not only those with pre-existing conditions, but also employees from small business owners or part time employees were elligible for a public option.  This would make the collected pool of money bigger.

Personaly, I would love to see anyone who wanted to join it be elligible.  But can understand the concern that it could hinder the free market, change can be seen as frightening.

Originally posted by Dafong 

So yeah its difficult to hold a debate with someone who offers up such opinions.

It's not a problem really.  Example shows in this thread, those who are actually willing to talk about issues and discuss the pro's and con's of things, as displayed by our exchanges between Earthgirl & myself.  Or those who are simply willing to target certain terms, phrases, words, that people say, which takes us to talk about things that won't solve anything.

Government takeover may be a general statement, but in this healthcare bill, the government is going to take over certain aspects of the healthcare industry.  That can be good or bad, but I'd rather debate and discuss the pro's and con's of it rather than whether "government takeover" is a bad phrase to use or not.  And if you still don't get the difference, then fine, I'll bow out to your superior arguments.

I only responded to Declaredemer because he took 2 words out of a whole post to find an issue with, rather than actually talking and discussing the real issues at hand.

Originally posted by declaredemer

Originally posted by Dafong

It is very difficult to argue with simple terms that ignore the greater complexity.  "Government Take-over" "Death Panels"

 

To argue against that takes time and effort and in all honesty the people who say those sorts of things aren't interested in hearing the arguments anyway, or they wouldn't be spouting such nonsense. 

 

So yeah its difficult to hold a debate with someone who offers up such opinions.

 

I totally agree.  And, this is not being offensive but the total truth:  I feel less intelligent.  I am serious that I think my IQ has decreased because of this "debate."  I have provided figures.  I have provided numbers.  I have provided rationale arguments.  I have explained different health care systems.  I have discussed tax consequences.  I have shown why the employer-based model for profit is not sustainable.  I have demonstrated that Americans receive less care, inferior quality care, and more expensive care than any advanced and many second world countries.

 

 

Still, however, I get "government takeover" and "socialism."  

 

 

I am sad.  Sacred.  Terrified.  And, as I said, less intelligent now.

Well, we're trying to educate you.  This is America.  Land of the free.  That freedom is our number one cherished gift.  And we want that protected more than anything.

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand.  You want to fix people's problems then go fix them.  Come up with your own creative way of helping people out.  But just keep the federal government and its intrusion of mine and others freedoms out of it.

Surely you can come up with a more creative solution than turning our country over and giving up on self reliance.

Imagine how proud we will be when we are able to solve this problem with a solution that does not involve giving up our founding principles.  Then imagine how weak those other countries are going to look when they wonder how we came together and solved a problem as private citizens AGAIN! 

I have no other way to say other than you are naive if you truly believe, in your heart, that the public option will take-away your (or anyone else's) "freedom."

I have defended the Constitution, always, on this forum.  I have defended the right of association, liberty, choice, wealth transfers, and so forth.  I always will.

Do not tell ME that supporting the public option is anti-freedom; that is utter nonsense, just like "death panels."

Originally posted by declaredemer

I have no other way to say other than you are naive if you truly believe, in your heart, that the public option will take-away your (or anyone else's) "freedom."

 

 

I have defended the Constitution, always, on this forum.  I have defended the right of association, liberty, choice, wealth transfers, and so forth.  I always will.

 

 

Do not tell ME that supporting the public option is anti-freedom; that is utter nonsense, just like "death panels."

You have claimed to defend the constitution while seeking to destroy it. Supporting government funded health care in any way is anti-freedom as long as it is done by government. It means you are willing to forcibly take the money from one group of people to pay for the needs of others. That is a violation of the freedom of everyone. All socialism is.

You have always been both anti-Constitution and an enemy of freedom, at least that is all I can get from your posts. However at any time you might just say the opposite, since you seem to hold no consistent positions on anything. Again this is all I can get from  your posting history.

You may be completely making all this up and have created a character with which to troll; this is what others have accused you of and I have yet to see you deny.

EDIT: please not that I say this ONLY in response to your making a claim about yourself which I feel is a false claim -- that you believe in the constitution and/or the principles that it stands on. I have seen no evidence in your posts to show any of this, even though you continually make this claim while at the same time advocating things that show you do not believe in it.

I do hope some day you show a change of heart and move toward liberty.

Originally posted by gnomexxx

Originally posted by declaredemer

Originally posted by Dafong

It is very difficult to argue with simple terms that ignore the greater complexity.  "Government Take-over" "Death Panels"

 

To argue against that takes time and effort and in all honesty the people who say those sorts of things aren't interested in hearing the arguments anyway, or they wouldn't be spouting such nonsense. 

 

So yeah its difficult to hold a debate with someone who offers up such opinions.

 

I totally agree.  And, this is not being offensive but the total truth:  I feel less intelligent.  I am serious that I think my IQ has decreased because of this "debate."  I have provided figures.  I have provided numbers.  I have provided rationale arguments.  I have explained different health care systems.  I have discussed tax consequences.  I have shown why the employer-based model for profit is not sustainable.  I have demonstrated that Americans receive less care, inferior quality care, and more expensive care than any advanced and many second world countries.

 

 

Still, however, I get "government takeover" and "socialism."  

 

 

I am sad.  Sacred.  Terrified.  And, as I said, less intelligent now.

Well, we're trying to educate you.  This is America.  Land of the free.  That freedom is our number one cherished gift.  And we want that protected more than anything.

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand.  You want to fix people's problems then go fix them.  Come up with your own creative way of helping people out.  But just keep the federal government and its intrusion of mine and others freedoms out of it.

Surely you can come up with a more creative solution than turning our country over and giving up on self reliance.

Imagine how proud we will be when we are able to solve this problem with a solution that does not involve giving up our founding principles.  Then imagine how weak those other countries are going to look when they wonder how we came together and solved a problem as private citizens AGAIN! 

Sorry, but I gotta give you another "Amen," brother.