Guys help me out here, I'm not very smart, but I'm trying to make sense of this whole insurance thing and a few other issues that are taking place currently in our country.

Why are average people defending the insurance companies as an argument against health reform? What benefit do some of these folks see (for themselves) when they express concern that a government run insurance option would affect profits for private insurance?

Why are conservatives so eager to defend private industry, I can name dozens/hundreds (Enron, Haliburton, FF, etc) of private corporations that have ruined peoples lives around the world and here at home, why are individuals, especially those that are not wealthy so adamant about preserving private industry in its current shape and form?

Why are these same people ignoring the fact that we already have social services in place, police, firefighters, medicare, etc., would they prefer to privatize these services as well?

I just don't understand the logic behind all of this, it's just pure crazy talk to me.

I think there is a wide misconception that the rich will always be the elites. However, thats not the case because of how the US works. Most of the rich are 1st generation rich coming from the lower and middle classes. What you see in most countries that create socialized programs is a growing dependance on them by the public, unsound economic principles in markets that have a socialized option, and an increase of power for certain families.

The reason some of us are in favor of private business, or in this case the concept of greed is that it keeps power spread out to many individuals and offers opportunity to anyone. The US has been around for over 200 years and IMO its the free market system that had created its industrialized base that makes it such a prosperous nation.

If you study the cost structure of various industries in relationship to legislation you might notice a trend. Government regulation and involvement has constantly been detrimental to economics. College Education wasn't expensive until the US government started offering loans and grants. Loans weren't in a bubble until Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac were created gaurunteeing mortgages and the fed decreasing interest rates. The Inflation in the US didn't jump up dramatically until the fed switched off the gold standard. Healthcare prices didn't increase until first Social Security, then Medicare and Medicaid, and rescently with Medicare reform. If you look at the high costs of living in the US at some point it can be attributed to government action, regulation, or intervention.

Even in the cases of Enron and Haliburton, at the base of their actions are government involvement and regulation that allowed them to take such actions.

I agree there is a problem with the cost of healthcare in this country. Although I do think there are some bad practices with the private healthcare industry. It would be far worse with the government managing it, just look at all the bad legislation apart of HR3200. I think if they want to pass real healthcare reform and not just a power grab, then they should look at the problem and address it instead of giving out handouts to their salary payers.

Why are average people defending the insurance companies as an argument against health reform? What benefit do some of these folks see (for themselves) when they express concern that a government run insurance option would affect profits for private insurance?

Straw man, imo. No average people I see on the news at those town halls are defending the insurance co's, it's just a matter of the lesser of two evils between the insurance companies and the government. If you think the insurance co's are more powerful and can harm you more than the government you're crazy.

Why are conservatives so eager to defend private industry, I can name dozens/hundreds (Enron, Haliburton, FF, etc) of private corporations that have ruined peoples lives around the world and here at home, why are individuals, especially those that are not wealthy so adamant about preserving private industry in its current shape and form?

I personally believe the government is chronically incompetent and is incapable of running pretty much anything well. Look at social security, the IRS, the post office - all of them are poorly run, bloated, overbudget, and would never survive as a private companies. Do you really want your healthcare regulated by, or worse, run by an agency like the IRS or the DMV, with standards set by federal bureaucrats, or worse, by congress? This is the main concern people have. And actually, a good portion of the healthcare industry  supports Obama's plan.

Why are these same people ignoring the fact that we already have social services in place, police, firefighters, medicare, etc., would they prefer to privatize these services as well?

Yes, in some cases. Partly you're confusing needed local services like police and firefighters that are provided on a city level to massive, federal government programs like medicare.

Medicare exists to provide healthcare payment for retired people that can't get employer insurance. Medicare is not run well and does not pay doctors enough. Medicaid already exists, however deficient it is, to provide healthcare for poor people. People that work by and large already have health insurance and are happy with it. This is the main group of people that oppose Obama's healthcare: people that already have healthcare insurance and are happy with it. They don't want their employer dropping coverage and pushing them all to the government plan because they're getting taxed for it anyway.

I just don't understand the logic behind all of this, it's just pure crazy talk to me.

I hope I've enlightened you.

I'm not sure if you are referring to people on this forum who oppose the government's healthcare plan or the people who are attending the townhall meetings, but I think you are twisting things a little bit here.  It's not so much that people are defending insurance companies, it's more that they are scared to death by government run healthcare.  Most people agree that there are changes that need to be made, but the ones being proposed are not it.

Most people may not love the current system, although polls show that a majority of Americans are satisfied with their coverage, but they do not like what they see in the one that the government would put in its place.

- My opinion is the average person defending the insurance companies has been frightened into thinking along the lines of the "Red Scare" we had in the fifties during McCarthyism.

People were willing to allow actors, actresses, writers and anyone in the business get blacklisted simply because of a title someone else put on them. Without the actual facts, they made a kneejerk reaction and this is how it always is with Americans. Conservatives stuck Obama with "muslim, socialist, fascist, communist, new world order, racist" tags and people respond with fear and guns. The overall message of healthcare got lost in the hyperbole.

The American public by and large is a lemming mob, they always have been easy to fall for the "evil guy" syndrome. We are a nation built from advertising because of capitalism and the better salesman always wins out. Snake-oil guys are a part of the culture and Americans eagerly stand in line for it. Big companies know if you control the message you control the people. Corporations don't do it like communists or facists with guns; they are way MORE effective because they willingly get people to give in with promises/lies.

The classic funny is exactly what you said: most Americans don't realize the things they take for granted everyday is nothing more than socialism that's been present since before they were even born. Fire, police, libraries, roads, military defense, schools, etc, etc, etc. The biggest unknowing hypocrites are the elderly and the military vets... no socialism for them, but they get it their whole life until they die. Plenty of them are getting BOTH of those socialist programs at the same time. Same thing with prescription drugs; seniors hop the border daily to other countries because they are getting ripped off in America, yet they are afraid of "Death Panels", lol. The lobbyists really got them spinning.

The one telling statistic that anyone could have looked up for themselves to ascertain exactly which side MIGHT have been telling the truth about healthcare is the fact (yep.. fact) that a Republican president hasn't put forth one plan since 1974 on how to fix/reform/change the healthcare system. Not one. Every major proposal that has ever been put forth in the last thirty five years has been by a Democrat. Whatever their motive, they are the only ones who ever discussed it and that should have been enough for most Americans towards credibility. Republicans only bring it up to say the Democrats healthcare plan stinks every time the Dems write on, without ever putting one of their own forth. Nor do Republicans ever add anything meaningful to the bill concerning alternatives.

It's amazing that after Enron and everything else the last eight years, people still don't understand corporations don't have it in their best interests. "Saddam did it; the French didn't do it; Bush never said it and Cheney said it wasn't breaking laws". I think it can basically be summed up by what P.T. Barnum said.

“There's a sucker born every minute”

P.T. Barnum

Originally posted by Falice

Guys help me out here, I'm not very smart, but I'm trying to make sense of this whole insurance thing and a few other issues that are taking place currently in our country.

 

Why are average people defending the insurance companies as an argument against health reform? What benefit do some of these folks see (for themselves) when they express concern that a government run insurance option would affect profits for private insurance?

Why are conservatives so eager to defend private industry, I can name dozens/hundreds (Enron, Haliburton, FF, etc) of private corporations that have ruined peoples lives around the world and here at home, why are individuals, especially those that are not wealthy so adamant about preserving private industry in its current shape and form?

Why are these same people ignoring the fact that we already have social services in place, police, firefighters, medicare, etc., would they prefer to privatize these services as well?

I just don't understand the logic behind all of this, it's just pure crazy talk to me.

Everyone else has posted pretty lengthy answers, and I'm not in the mood to read them, so I'm going to answer your question in a short manner and move on.

Common people, most at least, believe in God.  Republicans play the God and Religion cards, so the common man follows believing them on other aspects because they proclaim piousness so heavily that people don't want to doubt their sincerity.  The common man is then spoon fed the other ideas that Republicans want implanted in their heads.  Christianity plays to a flock mentality, so does the Republican party.

Again I haven't read anything anyone else has written, but I know what I've written is true. 

PROBLEM:  Health care is too expensive.

SOLUTION:  Choice and competition in the insurance market.

PLAN:  Pass a bill that provides for a public option.

Why are Sixpacks and Plumbers defending an industry that charges them more for insurance than anywhere in the world; charges them more for drugs than anywhere in the world; denies their coverage more than anyone in the world; prevents them from purchasing coverage due to pre-existing illnesses?  The same reason why Joe the Plumber (Sam, really) opposed Obama.  Ignorance. 

Ignorance of taxes (how employee-based plans are tax deductible and individual plans are not).  Ignorance of the costs (20% of GDP in the USA, e.g., highest in the world).  Ignorance of the quality of care (U.S.A ranked somewhere in the thirties).  Ignorance of different health care systems (single-payer, multi-payer, national insurance, and the USA model, which is the only one used in the developed world).  Ignorance of insurance laws (which limits and prevents consumers from purchasing out-of-state insurance and out-of-state prescription drugs).  Ignorance, even, of what socialism is. 

The government could use its buying power to negotiate rates, which would reduce costs; these reduced costs would force the private for-profit insurers to reduce costs in turn.  The fear, although this is not what you hear on the news --you hear "socialism!" to "liberty!"-- is that this public option is a precursor to national health insurance.  It why the industry is opposed. 

The House has already passed a bill with the public option.  House Democrats, however, might not vote for the final bill because of the public option.  Why?  Because of nonsense attacks from the right and industry.  Insurers such as Aetna and Cigna are not even really opposed to the public option as far as I know because they serve employers.  Insurance companies such as Wellpoint (Blue Cross and Blue Shield) have the most to lose.  We are talking about a very small segment of our economy that wants to continue to exploit health care. 

It is like those that do not receive tax deductible employer-based insurance or government insurance (employee, VHA, medicare, etc.) are just damned.  This group of people in our society has no lobby; has no tax deduction; has limited options; and is likely under-insured in important areas and over-insured in useless areas.  The system, for them, is to extract the most profit from their care (or the lack of it). 

The current model does not work for many reasons.  It is incredibly difficult to enter into the health care insurance industry (technological infrastructure, networks of providers, and raise significant capital for enormous claims).  It is not competitive, and it is grounded on an employer-based system that does not exist today.  It is why the government is the only insurer in the aggregate who can negotiate rates to actually reduce costs significantly.  America's Health Insurance Plans (AHIP) and Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) do not want change. If their systems work so well, people have the option to retain their current insurance; they do not even have to do anything. 

At the end of the day, the Sixpacks and Plumbers do not really oppose more choice and competition; they oppose the bill because they do not know what the hell it is they are talking about (ignorance).  The ignorance fuels fear; i.e., the fear of change.

Bottom Line. Republicans/Conservatives are sore losers. They lost. Anything at all, even things completely and utterly in their best interest, will be protested and fought tooth and nail if proposed by the winning side. Republicans/Conservatives would side with Lucifer himself if Jesus Christ came back to Earth and joined Obama in any of his reform attempts. The fact that Obama is a black man is what adds fear and contempt to the whole thing.

I have no doubts that my statement is 100% accurate. I'll only concede that half of them would probably listen to Jesus if Lucifer was a big red demon-looking guy with a forked tongue and horns. However, if he were to show up in a suit and tie, they'd probably try nail Jesus up all over again.

Originally posted by popinjay

The biggest unknowing hypocrites are the elderly and the military vets... no socialism for them, but they get it their whole life until they die. Plenty of them are getting BOTH of those socialist programs at the same time. Same thing with prescription drugs; seniors hop the border daily to other countries because they are getting ripped off in America, yet they are afraid of "Death Panels", lol. The lobbyists really got them spinning.

It is a powerful statement, and it is so right.  The hypocrisy of these groups to oppose giving the option of ordinary Americans to PURCHASE benefits that they already receive from the expense of those ordinary Americans.

It is ironic that the health care reform bill empowers the ordinary individual (more choice and more competition) than anyone, and yet it is the individuals --not so much the insurance lobby as far as I can tell-- that is the strongest opponent.

Many of these "socialism!" people would oppose anything to help them, however, at least I think so.  It is, I think, corporate media (Disney, Fox, TimeWarner, etc.) that keep emphasizing it.  I try to avoid the blame corporate media argument as best and as often as I can, but this whole "debate" has been framed around "death panels" and people shouting-down their own duly elected representatives.  

---

Originally posted by declaredemer

 Many of these "socialism!" people would oppose anything to help them, however, at least I think so.  It is, I think, corporate media (Disney, Fox, TimeWarner, etc.) that keep emphasizing it.  I try to avoid the blame corporate media argument as best and as often as I can, but this whole "debate" has been framed around "death panels" and people shouting-down their own duly elected representatives.

---

Media used to be pretty impartial about most of the reporting it did. It reported mainly what it knew to be factual and for the most part wasn't spinning "a side" because they owned themselves. They didn't represent a partner or owned an entertainment property as well as their news property, nor did they have a "parent company."

Today's media has too much self interest for the most part. Actually, because big business/corporations have swallowed up so many smaller ones, most of those have conflict of interest issues that don't allow them to approach anything fairly. There is no way that Halliburton will do an internal investigation into why American soldiers are being electrocuted in Iraqi showers or anything else. They stand to lose a ton of money and be open to lawsuits. There was no reason for Cheney to allow that positioin to be advanced either, considering he used to RUN Halliburton and still has plenty of ties to it.

A lobbying company will sponsor a group like FreedomWorks during this healthcare debate because it's in the interest of one of their higher paying health insurance clients to do so. So when the FreedomWorks gets citizens banners, transporation, talking points etc.. they show up and are not realizing they are protesting on BEHALF of an insurance company because it's one or two links removed from their sight. They think it's a grassroots organization sponsored by ex-conservative politician Dick Armey, nothing more. (who recently had FreedomWorks "divested" from the lobbying company that was paying him after the news broke) They believe they are there on their own accord and don't realize the manipulation. The more you remind them of the obvious, the more they back into the corner and dig in.

No one likes admitting they were a unwitting dupe. Saddam, 9/11, and Iraq taught us that. No one wants to admit they were fooled back then; they'd rather just change the subject and talk about "Well, at least we got rid of Saddam" as if that was worth almost 4k American lives.

A doctor (for the most part) will support any measure, plan, or position if he stands to benefit. What person on the planet usually doesn't do that? We all pick the path or position that allows us to benefit. This is why most doctors don't like this plan; they'd stand to lose potentially millions. They don't want to hurt patients, they just want to make lots of money while doing it.

Doctors know if the government had a singlepayer or public option, costs GO DOWN because now private companies have to bring their prices down, which means lower doctor's fees across the board. When you go to a doctor's office (any one) you see tons of free this sample and free that sample. Doctors get paid to get patients on a particular medication or to recommend it. They used to get vacations and trips from pharmaceutical companies for having all that stuff and patients on one more medication, not sure if it's still legal. But it certainly was a conflict of interest. If they have a choice between drug A and drug B and they do roughly the same thing (or not hurt the patient) but one drug pays more in some way, they will prescribe that.

It's like if your plumber comes to your house. He'll try to charge you for copper pipes instead of pvc, or a car salesman will try and push rustproofing. Won't kill you but you just loose a few more bucks.

A public option made to compete with private insurance companies simply cannot work in that capacity for a prolonged series of time without pointing a gun at doctors. If you have a public option people will go to it since they are already being taxed for it and its cheaper premiums. The doctors will mainly support the private option due to how the government has treated its current healthcare programs to date. It will lead to an overburdened public system with inexperienced doctors, and a more expensive private insurance. Its already been shown in Canda and the United Kingdom.

The only practical way I can think of managing such an option is to have the public option handle basic medical needs. Then allowing private insurance to cover more costly procedures and unnecessary tasks like plastic surgery.

The bill everyone is fighting about doesn't handle what should be handled with healthcare reform. Out of all the people that have read the bill posted on congress' website. 17% approve of the bill. In the bulk of events, the ones who are pro-HR3200 are astroturf and those expected to gain from the badly written bill.

People are screaming out what should actually be in the bill, how it should actually be handled. Yet it goes to deaf ears on congress who are making a huge mistake by taking failed concepts from other nations socialized medicine and trying it again with less effeciency and more beaurocracy.

Current health form events

1000 pages of reform and new laws and order gets put together by a couple of members of the house. 

Now VOTE on it.

Senate:   Whats in it?  We want to know what we are subjugating our lives too.

Ba,  doesnt matter,  its good,  VOTE

Senate:ah.....  not till we get a better understanding

You imbeciles,  you morons,  corrupt puppets of the evil corperations,  PASS IT

Senate:  Yea....  the more we read the more democrats there are that dont like this particular bill....

Originally posted by Cleffy

A public option made to compete with private insurance companies simply cannot work in that capacity for a prolonged series of time without pointing a gun at doctors. If you have a public option people will go to it since they are already being taxed for it and its cheaper premiums. The doctors will mainly support the private option due to how the government has treated its current healthcare programs to date. It will lead to an overburdened public system with inexperienced doctors, and a more expensive private insurance. Its already been shown in Canda and the United Kingdom.

The only practical way I can think of managing such an option is to have the public option handle basic medical needs. Then allowing private insurance to cover more costly procedures and unnecessary tasks like plastic surgery.

The bill everyone is fighting about doesn't handle what should be handled with healthcare reform. Out of all the people that have read the bill posted on congress' website. 17% approve of the bill. In the bulk of events, the ones who are pro-HR3200 are astroturf and those expected to gain from the badly written bill.

People are screaming out what should actually be in the bill, how it should actually be handled. Yet it goes to deaf ears on congress who are making a huge mistake by taking failed concepts from other nations socialized medicine and trying it again with less effeciency and more beaurocracy.

EXACTLY.
 

No one wants to discuss what should be in the bill, instead they ramble on about libs this conservatives that, throwing nonsense back and forth that has nothing to do with what should be in this bill, and what should not. No, that was never considered, they just threw it together and said " here is your reform" when in reality it is a big pile of poo served up on a silver platter.

It really disgusts me that people are that accepting of  something that is this important when it is so poorly done.  Lives are at stake here, and the waste of time they spent on this nonsense just made it take that much longer before we ever see REAL healthcare reform, if ever...

Giving the insurers more power is not the solution either. This is a mess...

If this Bill is slammed down our throats, you will see a huge change in future elections.  People will vote out all those politicians that supported this bill.

Obama is dropping in the polls so fast that his head is spinning.  Why are Obama's poll numbers dropping after the town halls? Simple: Misleading or obfuscating statements by Senators, Congressmen, and Obama himself, some of which approach outright lies have started to "train" the public to not believe 90% of what their representatives say.

There is a very simple remedy to the Obama health plan. If the plan is so great, then why doesn't he and everyone in Congress test it out on themselves and their families?

As I have heard, none of them will be impacted by the health plan. They have their own plan. So why are we empowering them to choose health plans for us?

If their families were affected by this new health plan, they would be much more cautious about the details.

I'm personally drawing a check from both sides to propel both movements.

Why join one cause, when you can get paid for both.

I support it because it means a chance to eliminate pandemics that could (could!) happen in lower income regions, not to mention health is key to a happy nation.

I do not support it because the giant red ticker has told me not , obey the ticker.

Originally posted by Falice

Guys help me out here, I'm not very smart, but I'm trying to make sense of this whole insurance thing and a few other issues that are taking place currently in our country.

 

Why are average people defending the insurance companies as an argument against health reform? What benefit do some of these folks see (for themselves) when they express concern that a government run insurance option would affect profits for private insurance?

Why are conservatives so eager to defend private industry, I can name dozens/hundreds (Enron, Haliburton, FF, etc) of private corporations that have ruined peoples lives around the world and here at home, why are individuals, especially those that are not wealthy so adamant about preserving private industry in its current shape and form?

Why are these same people ignoring the fact that we already have social services in place, police, firefighters, medicare, etc., would they prefer to privatize these services as well?

I just don't understand the logic behind all of this, it's just pure crazy talk to me.

I can't understand your seeming hatred of the "evil corporations".

Do you know who owns these evil corporations? Probably your parents and your Grandparents with mutual funds and 401Ks.

It's government regulation and interference in the market in almost every example you cited, Enron, Haliburton, etc., that caused the harm, not the corporations per se.

Originally posted by outfctrl

If this Bill is slammed down our throats, you will see a huge change in future elections.  People will vote out all those politicians that supported this bill.

I don't think anything is being "rammed down your throat".

We had elections, these are the representatives people voted for, obviously you were out voted. That's the way Democracy (yes, a representative republic is a form of Democracy) works.

You're exactly right, if you don't like the results, you get your chance to change it in the next election. Again, Democracy in action.

You're basically saying you don't like Democracy, because your side didn't win. That's just sour grapes. Democracy in the form of a Representative Republic doesn't work based on polls. The American public doesn't get to vote on every issue. If that were the case, we wouldn't need Congress.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Falice

Guys help me out here, I'm not very smart, but I'm trying to make sense of this whole insurance thing and a few other issues that are taking place currently in our country.

 

Why are average people defending the insurance companies as an argument against health reform? What benefit do some of these folks see (for themselves) when they express concern that a government run insurance option would affect profits for private insurance?

Why are conservatives so eager to defend private industry, I can name dozens/hundreds (Enron, Haliburton, FF, etc) of private corporations that have ruined peoples lives around the world and here at home, why are individuals, especially those that are not wealthy so adamant about preserving private industry in its current shape and form?

Why are these same people ignoring the fact that we already have social services in place, police, firefighters, medicare, etc., would they prefer to privatize these services as well?

I just don't understand the logic behind all of this, it's just pure crazy talk to me.

 

I can't understand your seeming hatred of the "evil corporations".

Do you know who owns these evil corporations? Probably your parents and your Grandparents with mutual funds and 401Ks.

It's government regulation and interference in the market in almost every example you cited, Enron, Haliburton, etc., that caused the harm, not the corporations per se.

It's like this.

A dude can own a boat.

A dude can float his boat.

A dude has a captain.

A dude has a captain because he can do a better job.

A dude has a captain who really likes to stir things up.

A dude has a captain who one days decides to sail into a storm.

A dude has no captain, no boat, and nothing left.

While your grandparents (not mine) may own things, it is a matter of the captain running the show.

Well said Pop, Dec, Laser and others, I really do feel that it boils down to one word now and that is opposite. Regardless of what Obama does, they are going to have to do the opposite; this was probably true for every Dem that was in a leadership position in recent history, but probably even more so for Obama.

I think Laser said that if Jesus popped in to give Obama the thumbs up, they would instead side with the devil.

I find it interesting that from the conservative point of view it's all about being heard now and freedom of speech, when during the previous administration legitimate protests which were against the lies that Bush spewed (war, fear mongering, etc) was considered by these same hypocrites to be "un-American". I can guarantee you that if ANYONE of us was toting a gun within 20 miles of Bush, we would have instantly been picked up, labeled terrorist, and shipped off to Gitmo.

Yet these imbeciles are arguing against "tyranny", they are fighting the Socialist machine, and preserving the Constitution.

Now my follow-up question to the same group is this, if we know that the other side is mostly comprised of crazy, why are we trying to work with them? I'm referring to the Republicans in the House and Senate that are pandering to the fringe within their communities, I guess that's somewhere around 90% of the House and Senate repubs.

Why can't the Dems just do what they really want to do, especially since they have the majority?

LOL good on!. Ask lefties Like Pop why people are aginst Healthcare reform bill! It's like going to MSNBC to get both sides of the story.

One place you could start is by reading the bill for yourself.

You can also go to a chart of deficit spending, look at healthcare spending, and add about 200million people to that cost. I guess us on the Right have the ability to rationally think of the consequences.