A bit of a thought experiment, have a read and a think first before the flames.... I'm going to use a very EXTREME example to make the point:

Lets pretend a fantasy MMO has an Uber AoE Death spell  and here's how it works:

- If 5 or more enemy players are in the target circle when cast, every enemy dies, be it 5, 10, 15 or more.

- If less than 5 enemy players are in the target circle when cast, nothing happens.

As a player what is your reaction to this sort of mechanic in-game (not on the forum complaining its OP)? How do you adapt your playstyle and tactics in PvP battles? I think its pretty simple. No one is going to be stupid and run around in a big zerg group. People are going to spread out, never wanting to be standing next to 4 friends for too long in a battle. I don't need to say why. (Please don't get too buried in specifics like how big is the target circle, or does it affect my allies too etc etc....)

Given this is an extreme example which you probably wouldn't want in a game, consider then how to leverage the idea. For a less extreme example, consider an AoE spell that does crap damage on 1 targets (eg 100 damage) but ramps up considerably with more targets (eg 5 targets, 300 damage each)?

Typically in MMOs the Single Target Fireball is the "Magnum Handgun" and the AoE Fireball is the "Stun Grenade", perhaps its better to make the AoE Fireball the "High Explosive Frag Grenade"....

I'd actually rather see AOE abilities hit EVERYONE, same for any AOE heals.  They'd have their place in big fights, but would have to be strategically coordinated.

Archer volleys hit everyone, but maybe the frontline tanks could "turtle" and block most of the damage..but a volley into a mad melee would hit everyone, friend or foe.

mage aoe would hit everyone in pvp...but maybe mages on the otherside could counterspell it, then you'd have a mage battle of wits to protect your tanks until the mass melee ensued.

maybe make this happen only in the "frontier" areas, so that you could still aoe and whatnot in pve raids and stuff.

That's my two cents.  Make the powerful abilities more strategic in use, rather than spammable insta death.

And for the love of god...if you have a game with siege.....if I shoot someone point blank in the face with a ballista...they should be dead.  End of story.

 It sounds pretty cool to me as long as it isn't an assassin type class that has the AoE and more of a Mage class. Would be abused to much as an assassin, but yeah I like the concept =D

+1

Originally posted by mutombo55

A bit of a thought experiment, have a read and a think first before the flames.... I'm going to use a very EXTREME example to make the point:

 

Lets pretend a fantasy MMO has an Uber AoE Death spell  and here's how it works:

- If 5 or more enemy players are in the target circle when cast, every enemy dies, be it 5, 10, 15 or more.

- If less than 5 enemy players are in the target circle when cast, nothing happens.

 

As a player what is your reaction to this sort of mechanic in-game (not on the forum complaining its OP)? How do you adapt your playstyle and tactics in PvP battles? I think its pretty simple. No one is going to be stupid and run around in a big zerg group. People are going to spread out, never wanting to be standing next to 4 friends for too long in a battle. I don't need to say why. (Please don't get too buried in specifics like how big is the target circle, or does it affect my allies too etc etc....)

 

Given this is an extreme example which you probably wouldn't want in a game, consider then how to leverage the idea. For a less extreme example, consider an AoE spell that does crap damage on 1 targets (eg 100 damage) but ramps up considerably with more targets (eg 5 targets, 300 damage each)?

Typically in MMOs the Single Target Fireball is the "Magnum Handgun" and the AoE Fireball is the "Stun Grenade", perhaps its better to make the AoE Fireball the "High Explosive Frag Grenade"....

Doesn't mitigate a zerg. The basic theory of a zerg is they can output more damage to more targets on average in a given amount of time. All this will do is spread both the smaller and larger groups beyond mutual support range. Unless you reduce all combat to one on one with full restoration to pre combat conditions at the end of each combat this will always be true.

Makes me think of Echo Slam

If anyone of you has played DotA in Warcraft 3 they will know what Im talking about, for others I will try to explain.

Well there is this tauren hero that has a spell that hits everyone around him for 350 damage and then they all do 45 damage each to each other.. so if only a few enemies are there nothing much happens but if there are many everything dies or atleast only the toughest are left limping away.

As for an mmo while a spell like that could work It would be redundant to have more than 1 or 2 with the spell. Or it should be a bit weaker than it is in DotA. But it is an interesting mechanic even if it might put a bit of strain on the game server and so on.

Should make people think twice before they all bunch together in the same spot.

Not sure if it has a place in an MMO though

--

Now friendly fire on the other hand......

I get the feeling this sort of direct to World of Warcraft mechanics. After reading this I get the image in my mind of an over popped server with mages rushing in to a crowed spamming every aoe they have. I also recall playing on the PTR for the 3.0 patch with my Retribution Paladin and being able to Divine Storm 3  players down off 1 cast.

All i believe this would produce is more people rolling aoe classes and really do we need more players rolling Mages and Fan of Knife spamming Rogues in these kinds of mmorpgs then there already is ? Franky no we don't and I would much rather see Devs take more interested in other play styles in mmorpg then just the overpowered casters and pure melee dps classes for a change.

To this day i can't find a Fantasy mmorpg where casters or pure melee dps are not either overpowered or over represented. I would much rather see more hybrid game play and favoritism directed to hybrids then just making these already over popped and powerful play style even more then what it is already.

In DAoC we had very strong PBAE, and it worked very well against the zerg :p

I remember a big zerg running thru the milegate chasing our group, most of our group kept running, but me and another ice wiz stopped, stayed next to the door and started spamming PBAE, we killed half the zerg, just by us 2, before they realised they better stop running thru that gate and target us 1st and kill us :p

Those were epic times.

AE CC and AE DD are the tools to control the zerg, it was pretty balanced during the SI era.

Originally posted by Cypryss

I get the feeling this sort of direct to World of Warcraft mechanics........

 

Well it was something I  was thinking about ages ago in relation to WAR, a while back they we patching in changes to the AoE stacking to make it less effective on large numbers. But I wasnt convinced this was going to reduce zerging (mind you I dont think that was ever their intention with that change.....). I just thought I post it up for peoples thoughts.

I was also applying some Counterstrike logic. The "Rush" tactic, somewhat like a zerg, can be quite effective, but it can also end in total disaster. One enemy with a well-timed flashbang and a rifle, or  two well timed nades can see two players defeat five with ease. So the curious difference here is that a single player has tools that are potentially quite deadly, costly and effective against a larger group. This seems to be the opposite in MMOs. (yes yes I realise FPS elements don't always translate well to MMO)

Im a big fan of chain style, multi target spells for zerg breaking.  A spell that can jump for 1 target to X number of other targets within Y range, and then possibly to Z targets withing Y range of them, is a better way to handle it versus scaling of single template spells.

Hehe, if that makes sense to anyone else, its 3am here.  :)

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Doesn't mitigate a zerg. The basic theory of a zerg is they can output more damage to more targets on average in a given amount of time. All this will do is spread both the smaller and larger groups beyond mutual support range. Unless you reduce all combat to one on one with full restoration to pre combat conditions at the end of each combat this will always be true.

True, superior numbers will always be an advantage but that's fine. Note though I said reduce the zerg.

In my mind, its better to have a nice wide spread out battlefront, rather than two tight swirling clumps of players colliding in a pixelated awkward-target-selecting mess.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by mutombo55

A bit of a thought experiment, have a read and a think first before the flames.... I'm going to use a very EXTREME example to make the point:

 

Lets pretend a fantasy MMO has an Uber AoE Death spell  and here's how it works:

- If 5 or more enemy players are in the target circle when cast, every enemy dies, be it 5, 10, 15 or more.

- If less than 5 enemy players are in the target circle when cast, nothing happens.

 

As a player what is your reaction to this sort of mechanic in-game (not on the forum complaining its OP)? How do you adapt your playstyle and tactics in PvP battles? I think its pretty simple. No one is going to be stupid and run around in a big zerg group. People are going to spread out, never wanting to be standing next to 4 friends for too long in a battle. I don't need to say why. (Please don't get too buried in specifics like how big is the target circle, or does it affect my allies too etc etc....)

 

Given this is an extreme example which you probably wouldn't want in a game, consider then how to leverage the idea. For a less extreme example, consider an AoE spell that does crap damage on 1 targets (eg 100 damage) but ramps up considerably with more targets (eg 5 targets, 300 damage each)?

Typically in MMOs the Single Target Fireball is the "Magnum Handgun" and the AoE Fireball is the "Stun Grenade", perhaps its better to make the AoE Fireball the "High Explosive Frag Grenade"....

 

Doesn't mitigate a zerg. The basic theory of a zerg is they can output more damage to more targets on average in a given amount of time. All this will do is spread both the smaller and larger groups beyond mutual support range. Unless you reduce all combat to one on one with full restoration to pre combat conditions at the end of each combat this will always be true.

I agree with this. The Zerg is uncoordinated mass damage till you win. You don't need to tank, nuke, heal, in close coordination, you just keep throwing out the damage till you overcome the enemy.

You could still do this with this set up. You just go in waves, instead of all at once, and it's still a zerg.

Massive AoE-skills would be exploited in PvE. There would have to be measures limiting this skill only to PvP or something like it.

Personally I'd like to see friendly fire -mechanics more. See how it goes.

Barring instancing, the only real way of thinning the zerg I can see is presenting a set of objectives which must be performed nearly simultaneously.

Originally posted by daelnor

I'd actually rather see AOE abilities hit EVERYONE, same for any AOE heals.  They'd have their place in big fights, but would have to be strategically coordinated.

Archer volleys hit everyone, but maybe the frontline tanks could "turtle" and block most of the damage..but a volley into a mad melee would hit everyone, friend or foe.......

Yes, Friendly Fire is certainly interesting as well. Sadly it would be just as easily abused by griefers. A possible solution I've read in the past is that if friendly players are in the target circle, they take no damage but damage to enemies is reduced (ie if 1 or more allies are in the target circle, damage is reduced by 50% or whatever).....

Another tangent similar to Friendly Fire that I like the idea of is "Line of Sight". If you can't shoot a Fireball straight through your Tanks and Melee DPS frontline, it may force players to spread out. Now this could actually encourage some clumping, but beyond a certain point it would be more harmful. ie a Wizard five rows back is really going to struggle getting his Fireball through, so he will probably start to tradeoff the protection of the Zerg clump and spread out so he can get some good shots in.

Better to think on what creates zergs to begin with.  DAOC-  You had zergs sometimes..doesn't mean you had to cater to them.  If the Zerg is busting up your frontier and you couldn't stand against them...go bust theirs up while they are rolling through yours. 

If you were good at this you could split the zerg into a home defensive group and an opposing realm offensive group and promote smaller fights.  The 8v8 guys would just go where no one was fighting over keeps and hunt each other.

WAR-  The game mechanics pretty much made it impossible not to zerg. 

WoW- where do people really zerg anymore?  All the combat pvp is instanced for the most part.  You don't have the Tauren mills battlefields like back in the day.

I think Zergs are more managable by the game mechanics and environments rather than the mechanics of individual players and skills.

But as far as skills go...how about introducing more battlefield control type skills rather than mass AOE?  How about dropping a wall of fire that people will have to go around or somehow dispell or take disastrous damage?  Oil slicks? Ice patches?

I say control the environment rather than the mass damage.  And make AOE hit everyone so it has to be used strategically.

Get funneled to a small area by the barricades placed by the opponent then get  aoe'd to death? Shouldn't have been there.

Mythic learned this the hard way. If you have classes that can unleash mass AOE death, then whats the point of playing the other classes? What you will get is a massive zerg of AOE death spamming classes since that will be overpowered. Your typical mmo player will flock toward easymode.

Originally posted by mutombo55

Originally posted by Cypryss

I get the feeling this sort of direct to World of Warcraft mechanics........

 

Well it was something I  was thinking about ages ago in relation to WAR, a while back they we patching in changes to the AoE stacking to make it less effective on large numbers. But I wasnt convinced this was going to reduce zerging (mind you I dont think that was ever their intention with that change.....). I just thought I post it up for peoples thoughts.

I was also applying some Counterstrike logic. The "Rush" tactic, somewhat like a zerg, can be quite effective, but it can also end in total disaster. One enemy with a well-timed flashbang and a rifle, or  two well timed nades can see two players defeat five with ease. So the curious difference here is that a single player has tools that are potentially quite deadly, costly and effective against a larger group. This seems to be the opposite in MMOs. (yes yes I realise FPS elements don't always translate well to MMO)

I wouldn't compare Fps to rpg elements all that much. For starters most Fps for a lack of a better word are balanced. At most a player may only care up to 5 different tools for a job. In Mmorpgs you have close to 20 different or more tools on hand to kill a target with.
 

I understand what you are saying about zerging and trying to find a solution to zerging but, the way i look at it is it's as common as camping in a FPS game. It is a element that needs to be embraced but, also needs to put the players that use this tactic at a disadvantage. I'm just not sold off of the uber aoe method of handling it.

The key problem In almost all mmorpgs is the scissor paper rock element we all face in pvp and should be directed more toward a 1v1 to allow for those skilled players to be able to 3 v 1 to eliminate zerging or, that's just how i feel on the matter.

1 very skilled player can be the make or break in all types of  pvp and this arena style box group just doesn't do it for me to even address it as any kind of pvp. It's more or less like sitting with 4 other buddies sitting on hill just nade spamming their heart out at a Point of Intrest location. The only way to counter it is jahadding with a jeep strapped with c4 and blowing them all to Hell.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I agree with this. The Zerg is uncoordinated mass damage till you win. You don't need to tank, nuke, heal, in close coordination, you just keep throwing out the damage till you overcome the enemy.

You could still do this with this set up. You just go in waves, instead of all at once, and it's still a zerg.

I think your getting hung up on the numbers game. Superior numbers is an advantage. But that's perfectly fine. Its not so much the numbers but rather how they move and play out the battle.

Perhaps I should have been more specific on "zerg".... I'm not as worried about a 30 vs 10 winning all the time. Rather its when the 30 are just this big messy clump of players rolling forward, and the 10 dieing is almost a forgone conclusion.

Think at the micro level, on screen, running forward controlling your one character. Say its 30 of your side vs 10 enemies. Do you want 4 allys right next to you, exposing you to a possible Uber AoE Death Spell?.... Are you willing to risk charging in with all 30 axe wielding allies in an almighty ugly clump of players, only for all of you to die in an instant? Or would you instead send 4 down the middle, 4 sitting back, 4 on the left, 4 on the right and another 4 sweeping round the back......

Originally posted by Grunch

Mythic learned this the hard way. If you have classes that can unleash mass AOE death, then whats the point of playing the other classes? What you will get is a massive zerg of AOE death spamming classes since that will be overpowered. Your typical mmo player will flock toward easymode.

No, they didn't learn.

All you described is a fotm character that everyone will roll.  In other words, a braindead idea.