Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by Dafong

Originally posted by Gyrus
...

Look at many recent MMOs - they look more like single player games.

I am not quite sure what else you expect?

An MMORPG is an RPG with an online aspect that allows you to play with other people to complete goals....of course it will feel like a single player game.  Is there any other way it could feel?

There are no new ideas just because you are online and more people are playing at the same time.  That doesn't create any new or different styles of gameplay.

 

No.  An MMO is NOT just a single player RPG with an online aspect.  That is what MMOs are becoming because of recent design trends - but that is not what they 'are' or what they should be.
 

Is there any other way it could feel?  Yes.  Like a community - from start to finish.  Aside from the initial 'training' an MMO player should feel the "MM" part and feel like a part of that.  They should feel that they are a part of something, that they need other people and that other people need them.  It doesn't have to be in a big way - maybe just that they are part of a production chain or that they are a border guard watching a pass or... anything.  But just feeling that they have to "kill 5 more wolves to reach level X" is not the experience we should be striving for.

There are no new ideas just because you are online?  That's a sad comment.  Game Designers (in fact all Designers) usually love a new medium.  One of the first things they do is look at the possibilities of it and what makes it unique that they can use.
It would be like saying - just because it's a computer RPG does not make it different to a pen and paper game?

Computers are good at processing and storing data... lots of data.  And every year the technology advances alowing computers to do more and more data processing quicker and quicker.  They are now also getting better at displaying that data (graphics).  New technologies also mean they are better at exchanging data.
This allow increasing numbers of people to play a game together with increased complexity in their actions and reactions and have the computer(s) handle all the mundane donkey work.
If you don't see potentail in that beyond single player games then I am amazed.

You are completely ignoring the fact that RPGs are a genre of game that existed LONG before the Internet was born.

As a genre it has certain aspects.  Questing for example, gaining levels.  You can't just ignore that aspect or it simply isn't an RPG.

Just because it has gone online doesn't change the genre and doesn't give designers some magical ability to redefine the genre.

Also your comments about community are more based around personal feelings then anything a game designer can put into a game.  It is like saying a game should have Love...or any other emotional feeling.  A game can't give you something like that.  That is something the players create.  In Everquest, we all had our own, not game created, Server message boards.  We had our own, not game created, Class message boards...Monkly Business was huge, as was the Rangers Glade as was my servers message board.  The game didn't give us ANY of that, the players created that.

You have your objective... hit cap, pvp, raid, get gear, etc.,..

The software companies have their objectives... sell copies, keep sub numbers up and growing, keep players sub'd to their game month after month, sell expansions, MAKE MONEY!

If you were get 'end game' right off the bat with games... you'd quit within a few months.  You'd get bored quickly.  Look at all of the game hopping with games as they currently are.  Going from 0-cap level in no time flat would result in catastrophe for gaming companies and the overall landscape of MMO's (bad for players, too). 

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Gyrus

If you want to make a point... maybe we should push MMORPG.com to list "Farmtown" since it may actually qualify? 

 

Well it boils down to what people are genuinely interested in (especially the site's content authors who'd have to do the footwork on implementing the pages.)

I'm not sure anyone's interested in farmtown.  As you may have noticed even I have a pretty healthy disdain for the current wave of social MMOs (similar to the disdain I held for early MMORPGs, really.)

I did a little research.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/247530/FARM-TOWN-vs-MMORPGcom.html

Not only are people interested... turns out it's the WoW killer. 

 

It really is.  Which is why I think they have such potential, once they expand past their infancy.

Zynga has 80 million active users across their games.  It's friggin' ridiculous :P

 Can we just get rid of the notion that new players being as viable as veterans is the way to go. By creating a system where this works you make stats useless and by removing stats completely you remove the progression of the game.

The problem isn't that the end game is better (for most games at least). The problem is that this new generation of gamers are focused on being the best and will never be satisfied with the journey. They just want to hit max level and gloat.

It doesn't matter how much content you add to the game, people will grind past it.

If you actually take the time to get into the lore, talk to NPCs, read quest dialogue you would notice that most games have a decent story to follow but we get so focused on clicking next and clearing out our quest log we miss all of it.

I think adding full voice acting to all NPCs will allow for a lot of players to get more into the game. You'll still have players skipping this but it would help.

I think another problem is that with all these quick ways to travel, game worlds have become smaller and smaller. It used to be about adventure and discovering things on your own. Now it's about finding the most efficient way to level and skipping over unnecessary content.

We have reduced MMOs to a mathamtical equation. That's why everyone uses those mods to maxmize exp per hour and dps.

This is not the developers fault, this is our fault for getting so caught up in the numbers game that we forgotten why we started playing MMOs in the first place.

and of course everyone has a different reason, but I believe you will find a lot more enjoyment in the games you play if you take a look at what draws you to the genre.

An example of this is if you enjoy a large open world to explore at your own pace, then stop using guides and quick transports and discover things for yourself.

Originally posted by Netzoko

In pretty much every level based game, the "real" game begins at max level. So I ask, why even bother having the rest in the game?  It seems leveling from 1-max is simply some kind of fraternity initiation. It's not really fun, not really rewarding... After all, every 10 levels the gear you worked for is obsolete.

I just don't get it. In the past months I've played WoW, L2, Aion, Runes of Magic, Atlantica... all look like totally amazing and fun games...... once you reach cap. Its degrading. I walk around the cities seeing all the high level people PvPing and doing everything actually fun. Meanwhile, I'm doing kill 15 boar quests and in the back of my mind I know that it takes months to reach cap. To be honest its the reason I end up saying screw it and uninstalling.

Why? Why must we painfully grind for weeks or months to join the rest of the game community? When someone new comes to a game do they think, "Wow, killing these wolves like a part time job to someday enjoy the real content is fun!" No, they say "Fuck, I want to get through this crap so I can play with my max level friends who told me to play this game in the first place!" The leveling process just feels like time sink bullshit to make you subscribe longer.

If a game wants to have levels, make it like Guild Wars where a player can CHOOSE to play the middle content. If not, let him join the majority of the player base at max level.

Am I off my rocker or do other people feel the same way?

Actually alot of people in level based games enjoy leveling alts. So to them that beginner and middle content is worth something. Actually it's worth more since both raiding, instance pvping and rep grinds are sucky to them so they just level every toon to max or twink for fun.

Originally posted by Dafong
....

 

You are completely ignoring the fact that RPGs are a genre of game that existed LONG before the Internet was born.

As a genre it has certain aspects.  Questing for example, gaining levels.  You can't just ignore that aspect or it simply isn't an RPG.

Actually - not 100% true.  The original D&D rules were based on a tabletop war game without levels IIRC?
And the number of 'levels' increased every time TSR did a new edition.  In fact, many of the rules changed completely in an attempt (I believe) to force players to keep buying the expansions... not unlike MMORPGs today...
Levels though, were there for convenience.  XP was a simplified stat to track everything all at once.
Had those initial designers had computers at their disposal to easily track stats and achievements (and crunch numbers) it is likely RPGs would have looked totally different.

 Just because it has gone online doesn't change the genre and doesn't give designers some magical ability to redefine the genre.

Computing power gives them that ability.  Now, we can accurately track exactly how many Goblins you have killed, how many locks you picked and how many animals you tamed without having to lump it all together in one score called "XP".

Also your comments about community are more based around personal feelings then anything a game designer can put into a game.  It is like saying a game should have Love...or any other emotional feeling.  A game can't give you something like that.  That is something the players create.  In Everquest, we all had our own, not game created, Server message boards.  We had our own, not game created, Class message boards...Monkly Business was huge, as was the Rangers Glade as was my servers message board.  The game didn't give us ANY of that, the players created that.

A designer CAN put that into a game.  You said the players did it in Everquest?
"Playing EverQuest did more than just inspire Blizzard - it helped with hiring, too. Rob Pardo, vice president of game design, had been involved in running a well-known EverQuest guild called Legacy of Steel alongside another player, called Tigole, who was noted in the community for posting incisive commentary on EverQuest on the guild website. Hired by Blizzard, Tigole - real name Jeff Kaplan - would go on to become one of the lead designers on World of Warcraft, and a key figure in the genesis of the game."

Game companies are slowly beginning to understand 'community building' too.  Even outside the game.

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by Dafong
....

 

You are completely ignoring the fact that RPGs are a genre of game that existed LONG before the Internet was born.

As a genre it has certain aspects.  Questing for example, gaining levels.  You can't just ignore that aspect or it simply isn't an RPG.

Actually - not 100% true.  The original D&D rules were based on a tabletop war game without levels IIRC?
And the number of 'levels' increased every time TSR did a new edition.  In fact, many of the rules changed completely in an attempt (I believe) to force players to keep buying the expansions... not unlike MMORPGs today...
Levels though, were there for convenience.  XP was a simplified stat to track everything all at once.
Had those initial designers had computers at their disposal to easily track stats and achievements (and crunch numbers) it is likely RPGs would have looked totally different.

 Just because it has gone online doesn't change the genre and doesn't give designers some magical ability to redefine the genre.

Computing power gives them that ability.  Now, we can accurately track exactly how many Goblins you have killed, how many locks you picked and how many animals you tamed without having to lump it all together in one score called "XP".

Also your comments about community are more based around personal feelings then anything a game designer can put into a game.  It is like saying a game should have Love...or any other emotional feeling.  A game can't give you something like that.  That is something the players create.  In Everquest, we all had our own, not game created, Server message boards.  We had our own, not game created, Class message boards...Monkly Business was huge, as was the Rangers Glade as was my servers message board.  The game didn't give us ANY of that, the players created that.

A designer CAN put that into a game.  You said the players did it in Everquest?
"Playing EverQuest did more than just inspire Blizzard - it helped with hiring, too. Rob Pardo, vice president of game design, had been involved in running a well-known EverQuest guild called Legacy of Steel alongside another player, called Tigole, who was noted in the community for posting incisive commentary on EverQuest on the guild website. Hired by Blizzard, Tigole - real name Jeff Kaplan - would go on to become one of the lead designers on World of Warcraft, and a key figure in the genesis of the game."

Game companies are slowly beginning to understand 'community building' too.  Even outside the game.

 

 

Full name Tigole Bitties, switch the first letters around.

I remember him, and I remember LoS, I remember Irontail and his lessons on Plane of Mischief, I remember when I first got bound to the PoM.

Doesn't change anything.  EQ did not create the community, the players created the community.

Whether you call it XP or you call it something else, the premise is the same.  The initial point was that gameplay within an RPG shouldn't be like a single player game....I pointed out that its an RPG and whether you like it or not, it is an established Genre, that was around LONG before the internet was and that if game makers want to stay within the genre of RPG, then they will have to stick to certain conventions, and when you stick to those conventions it will feel like a single player game with an aspect of co-operation.

To now talk about XP or kill numbers for mobs is in my opinion utterly irrelevent to the original premise.

I am sorry th OP does not get it,originally i thought the post was about the OP"getting it" and wonders why others don't.

I am not of that same group you say ONLY enjoy end game,i do not even care about PVP period.I try to enjoy games i play from the first minute i enter the game.Some i know take a small bit getting used ot,but if it offers something i give it a chance.

To myself the end game is what matters the LEAST,that is usually the point of the game that 90% of your previous spells and abilities have become useless,obsolete,now you are stuck with that same group of hotbar icons for the rest of your time in the game.What i do is reroll a new class,try to enjoy the game from a different perspective,if it's not fun enough to do that again,then i will quit playing,i have ZERO interest in end game drama.

Originally posted by Wizardry

I am sorry th OP does not get it,originally i thought the post was about the OP"getting it" and wonders why others don't.

I am not of that same group you say ONLY enjoy end game,i do not even care about PVP period.I try to enjoy games i play from the first minute i enter the game.Some i know take a small bit getting used ot,but if it offers something i give it a chance.

To myself the end game is what matters the LEAST,that is usually the point of the game that 90% of your previous spells and abilities have become useless,obsolete,now you are stuck with that same group of hotbar icons for the rest of your time in the game.What i do is reroll a new class,try to enjoy the game from a different perspective,if it's not fun enough to do that again,then i will quit playing,i have ZERO interest in end game drama.

While I generally agree with your perspective, I would consider you to be in the minority.

As far as this mindset being any sort of issue, I believe it's only natural for certain players to feel that way.  When someone gets into an MMORPG at launch, there aren't any players at the cap, everyone is relatively the same level, and it's much more feasible to "enjoy the ride."  Take a game like EQ2 (which I leveled 1 - 80 in this past summer), and I can see a different perspective.  When 90% of the player base is level 80 already, and there aren't many lower levels running around, the "journey" can be an awfully lonely one.  This would obviously bother more people than others.  As for me, I like to be where the players are, so if that means I can enjoy the trip from level one to the max level while grouping and socializing with new players just like me instead of the random low level alt of a five year veteran then I'm all for it, but when playing games where the low - mid level population is incredibly low or completely nonexistant (personally saw this as an issue in EQ1), the urge to reach the max level as fast as possible does tend to kick in.

As you can see, for me it's not so much about endgame content as I'm not a raider or a hardcore number cruncher.  These days,  I just want to log in, socialize, and have fun, and if I have to be the max level in order to get the most out of that then that's what I will want to do.

Originally posted by Netzoko

In pretty much every level based game, the "real" game begins at max level. So I ask, why even bother having the rest in the game?  It seems leveling from 1-max is simply some kind of fraternity initiation. It's not really fun, not really rewarding... After all, every 10 levels the gear you worked for is obsolete.

I just don't get it. In the past months I've played WoW, L2, Aion, Runes of Magic, Atlantica... all look like totally amazing and fun games...... once you reach cap. Its degrading. I walk around the cities seeing all the high level people PvPing and doing everything actually fun. Meanwhile, I'm doing kill 15 boar quests and in the back of my mind I know that it takes months to reach cap. To be honest its the reason I end up saying screw it and uninstalling.

Why? Why must we painfully grind for weeks or months to join the rest of the game community? When someone new comes to a game do they think, "Wow, killing these wolves like a part time job to someday enjoy the real content is fun!" No, they say "Fuck, I want to get through this crap so I can play with my max level friends who told me to play this game in the first place!" The leveling process just feels like time sink bullshit to make you subscribe longer.

If a game wants to have levels, make it like Guild Wars where a player can CHOOSE to play the middle content. If not, let him join the majority of the player base at max level.

Am I off my rocker or do other people feel the same way?

Typically, I'll play a game all the way through, attending to all the various aspects therein.
But after that first max level character, I'm not likely to "waste my time" on the whole shebang again.
I have no qualms whatsoever about getting someone else to Powerlevel characters for me.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Netzoko

In pretty much every level based game, the "real" game begins at max level. So I ask, why even bother having the rest in the game?  It seems leveling from 1-max is simply some kind of fraternity initiation. It's not really fun, not really rewarding... After all, every 10 levels the gear you worked for is obsolete.

I just don't get it. In the past months I've played WoW, L2, Aion, Runes of Magic, Atlantica... all look like totally amazing and fun games...... once you reach cap. Its degrading. I walk around the cities seeing all the high level people PvPing and doing everything actually fun. Meanwhile, I'm doing kill 15 boar quests and in the back of my mind I know that it takes months to reach cap. To be honest its the reason I end up saying screw it and uninstalling.

Why? Why must we painfully grind for weeks or months to join the rest of the game community? When someone new comes to a game do they think, "Wow, killing these wolves like a part time job to someday enjoy the real content is fun!" No, they say "Fuck, I want to get through this crap so I can play with my max level friends who told me to play this game in the first place!" The leveling process just feels like time sink bullshit to make you subscribe longer.

If a game wants to have levels, make it like Guild Wars where a player can CHOOSE to play the middle content. If not, let him join the majority of the player base at max level.

Am I off my rocker or do other people feel the same way?

Actually alot of people in level based games enjoy leveling alts. So to them that beginner and middle content is worth something. Actually it's worth more since both raiding, instance pvping and rep grinds are sucky to them so they just level every toon to max or twink for fun.

 

 

/me
 

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Originally posted by Wizardry

I am sorry th OP does not get it,originally i thought the post was about the OP"getting it" and wonders why others don't.

I am not of that same group you say ONLY enjoy end game,i do not even care about PVP period.I try to enjoy games i play from the first minute i enter the game.Some i know take a small bit getting used ot,but if it offers something i give it a chance.

To myself the end game is what matters the LEAST,that is usually the point of the game that 90% of your previous spells and abilities have become useless,obsolete,now you are stuck with that same group of hotbar icons for the rest of your time in the game.What i do is reroll a new class,try to enjoy the game from a different perspective,if it's not fun enough to do that again,then i will quit playing,i have ZERO interest in end game drama.

 

While I generally agree with your perspective, I would consider you to be in the minority.

As far as this mindset being any sort of issue, I believe it's only natural for certain players to feel that way.  When someone gets into an MMORPG at launch, there aren't any players at the cap, everyone is relatively the same level, and it's much more feasible to "enjoy the ride."  Take a game like EQ2 (which I leveled 1 - 80 in this past summer), and I can see a different perspective.  When 90% of the player base is level 80 already, and there aren't many lower levels running around, the "journey" can be an awfully lonely one.  This would obviously bother more people than others.  As for me, I like to be where the players are, so if that means I can enjoy the trip from level one to the max level while grouping and socializing with new players just like me instead of the random low level alt of a five year veteran then I'm all for it, but when playing games where the low - mid level population is incredibly low or completely nonexistant (personally saw this as an issue in EQ1), the urge to reach the max level as fast as possible does tend to kick in.

As you can see, for me it's not so much about endgame content as I'm not a raider or a hardcore number cruncher.  These days,  I just want to log in, socialize, and have fun, and if I have to be the max level in order to get the most out of that then that's what I will want to do.

Actually, we are not in the minority.  Even in WoW, less than 20% of the player base participates in raiding content and it's about the same or a bit higher for PvP.   Hardcores, powergamers and PvPers are all niche in today's market.  Even back in the days of EQ, hardcores and powergamers didn't dominate the market like they thought.  EQ garnered more than 2 million subscribers over a several year period, yet they never retained more than 450,000 at it's peak of popularity.  SOE was so desperate to capture that crowd, they created a much more casual EQ2 in the hopes of bagging those 1.5 million casually oriented players.

The key here is that more games should find ways to encourage high level players, especially those not interested in raiding, to adventure and socialize with lower level players. The game I am most familiar with, Everquest 2, does this in two ways - mentoring and the achievement experience system.

I think mentoring should be an option in a lot of games, but it is still fairly rare. Basically it lets higher level characters reduce their level to that of a lower level character - keeping all of their abilities and hotbars the same but just scaling their effects down to the lower level. So if you want to explore a dungeon but there aren't many characters at your level, max level players can join and just mentor down so everyone can enjoy it - this system works very well if you have higher level friends as the OP mentioned. Why would max level players want to do this? The second point.

Achievement experience is a key part of EQ2 - basically it is similar to the talent points in WoW, but instead of just getting them automatically as you level, you have to accumulate experience on a separate bar to get the points. You get achievement experience (commonly referred to as AA) by doing quests, exploring new areas, killing named mobs, collecting sets of items scattered around the world, etc. This system means that higher level players are usually looking for more AA, and mentoring down to lower level players is a perfect way to get it - to explore old dungeons they passed over, do quests they missed, etc.

Also, of course, games should make the "middle part" as interesting as possible. If people feel like the game is work, or if they just have to do a bunch of repetitive quests, they won't have fun, which is the point after all. Good quest design, fun areas to explore, and solo or group options should all be part of the mix.

Originally posted by Peregrine2

This system means that higher level players are usually looking for more AA, and mentoring down to lower level players is a perfect way to get it - to explore old dungeons they passed over, do quests they missed, etc.

Wouldn't a high level player be able to stomp through lowbie content and kinda have a boring time of it?  Or are there upper level restrictions and mentoring is basically like Exemplar in COX?

Sounds like a good system either way.  Although my experience as an EQ2 newb about a year ago was not much better than it was at release.  The world just didn't hit it off for me, for some reason.

It's all about the road you travel with friends, and the road should start again at end game.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Wouldn't a high level player be able to stomp through lowbie content and kinda have a boring time of it?  Or are there upper level restrictions and mentoring is basically like Exemplar in COX?

Sounds like a good system either way.  Although my experience as an EQ2 newb about a year ago was not much better than it was at release.  The world just didn't hit it off for me, for some reason.

A mentored player is definitely very strong, but that's not really a bad thing - I'd say most of the time it lets you hack through the old stuff before you get bored. Having a high level tank destroy low level content is also a sight to behold, and helps everyone get AA quicker. There is a potential for powerlevelling, but the experience gain normally is very quick. Part of the mentoring system is that the character that mentors down gets only 50% of the normal xp, but gets bonus AA, so it all works out.

Leveling makes you want to play.

End game keeps you p(l)aying.

Big difference.

Originally posted by Netzoko

In pretty much every level based game, the "real" game begins at max level. So I ask, why even bother having the rest in the game?  It seems leveling from 1-max is simply some kind of fraternity initiation. It's not really fun, not really rewarding... After all, every 10 levels the gear you worked for is obsolete.

I just don't get it. In the past months I've played WoW, L2, Aion, Runes of Magic, Atlantica... all look like totally amazing and fun games...... once you reach cap. Its degrading. I walk around the cities seeing all the high level people PvPing and doing everything actually fun. Meanwhile, I'm doing kill 15 boar quests and in the back of my mind I know that it takes months to reach cap. To be honest its the reason I end up saying screw it and uninstalling.

Why? Why must we painfully grind for weeks or months to join the rest of the game community? When someone new comes to a game do they think, "Wow, killing these wolves like a part time job to someday enjoy the real content is fun!" No, they say "Fuck, I want to get through this crap so I can play with my max level friends who told me to play this game in the first place!" The leveling process just feels like time sink bullshit to make you subscribe longer.

If a game wants to have levels, make it like Guild Wars where a player can CHOOSE to play the middle content. If not, let him join the majority of the player base at max level.

Am I off my rocker or do other people feel the same way?

The "end game" in climbing Mt. Everest is to stand on the summit, and gaze around from the highest point on the planet.

But people that climb Everest don't want to take a helicopter ride to the summit. The "end game" is only enjoyable, if you do the middle part to get there. Then you can say, I climbed Everest. Nobody cares if you say, I took a Helicopter ride to the top of Everest.

Same with end game RvR, or Raiding, etc. It's fun, because of the journey to get there