forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php

From the DF board:

My stats are a bit less than 50 on average. Wisdom is towards 60, while Dex is low. That means that I still have a little more than 300 stats to gain.

I have today timed my stats gain. First through gathering (mining/lumbering) and later through swimming.
Here is what I found:

In 2 hours and 45 minutes of gathering, I gained 0.59 stats in all (Str: 0.23, Vit: 0.18, Qui: 0.01, Wis: 0.20).
Let us do some math on that:

2h45m = 165 minutes.
0.59 / 165 = 0.003575 stats per minute.
0.003575 * 60 = 0.2145 stats per hour.

To gain 300 stats I need to play:
300 / 0.2145 = 1398.6 hours.

And this is provided that gaining stats stays at the same rate. I don't know if it does.
Let us assume the best and say the rate stays the same:

A fairly hardcore player playing on average 4 hours a day (28 hours a week - better part of a fulltime job).
This person would have to play 1398 / 4 = 349 days to reach max stats. And that is provided, that he spends every single minute hardcore stat-gaining. No travelling, no fiddling around talking to friends, only stat-gaining.

Imagine when the extremely hardcore get to max-stats and have Arch-Mage and whatnot:
A newbie just starting out is faced with this before he will be competitive.

I don't understand why AV can't see the insanity in their current system.

PS: Just for the record: Swimming gain was a bit lower than gathering: 0.43 in 2h45m or 0.00261 per minute (gathering was 0.003575), or about 2/3rd of what gathering was.

PPS: The 1400 hours I wrote about, is for a guy at my level, not a complete newbie. A complete newbie would have way more than 1400 hours in front of him.

Edit:
It turns out that the stat gain rate gets steeper. There is no saying how many hours it will be then, but maybe double or even triple of those 1400 hours I estimated, which was based on rate that stays the same.

End post.

My comments:

If you are a new player and you read this, then think very carefully before entering this game. Both stat and skill gain is so over the top, that you will do nothing but grind the majority of your playtime and potentially for years if you want to stay competitive.

My reason to linking the post over here, is to give this warning. The grind is so steep, that I don't even want to recommend this game to my friends and guild mates.

Yeah but of course this game is free of AFK skill macro'ers because Aventurine is awesome and Darkfall is perfect.

/sarcasm

Now I see why they do it. Hell, presented with this kind of evidence, I'd probably do it too.

 The grind seriously needs to be reduced... no doubt about it.  They've made it more bearable, but they could still make it much better.

Like in any good Roleplay System stat gain should take you a long time, ideally it should be a lifetime process that never ends. Especially if we talking about stats and not skills.

That is RPG philosophy  basics invented by creators  of role play. There are other games you can play out there that give you instant gratification all you want.  Darkfall is not for everyone.

I think the skill grind needs to be reduced, or at least some major incentives to skill-up outside of clans cities. But the stat grind? People will find anything to moan about.

Never played Darkfall and probably never will, but I did have some questions and observations reference your stats gain data.

My main question is, does the stat gain within a couple of hours of play translate into noticeable effects on the character's abilities? For example, is a minor strength gain noticeable during game play?

If so, then as long as there is a noticeable difference in effectiveness at various levels,  in my opinion  it is less important how much the gain is than it is that the player notices that they have made advancement.

For the player, satisfaction usually comes in realizing advancement more than the actual amount of advancement.

As another example, in Game A, the player  gains 22 strength in one hour of stat-focused play. In Game B, the player only gains 1 strength in one hour of stat-focused play.

However, in Game A, the stat gain isn't actually noticeable. The character doesn't appear to be hitting harder, doing any additional damage, or being able to carry more as a result of their strength gain.

In Game B, the character is definitely doing more damage, able to carry additional items, etc.

Most players would find more satisfaction with Game B because the effectiveness of the gain is noticeable.

My next observation is that it makes perfect sense to design a system with slow advancement in the interest of game longevity; BUT ideally the system should make the player feel as though they are actually advancing, despite how long it takes.

From what I have read, it appears as though Darkfall falls into the Game A category. If it does, then the stat gain you illustrate is certainly too extreme and I can understand why players macro their skill / stat gains.

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Like in any good Roleplay System stat gain should take you a long time, ideally it should be a lifetime process that never ends. Especially if we talking about stats and not skills.

Unfortunately, Darkfall is an MMORPG. In an MMORPG where it takes an extremely long time to hit "max power," botters, exploiters, no-lifers and gold farmers will have an advantage over people who don't cheat or play the game ten hours a day.

Also, if a new player has no chance to compete with players who've been around for a year or two, because it takes two or three years of moderate playing to become powerful, they'll probably end up giving the game a pass.

That's why EVE has handled skill-based systems better than anyone else so far: 1.) You gain skills over time, not through grinding or botting, and 2.) Although veteran players have a wide variety of skills, each skill has only five levels, and only a very limited range of skills are used for a given ship type. So new players can catch up in their chosen field of expertise.

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Like in any good Roleplay System stat gain should take you a long time, ideally it should be a lifetime process that never ends. Especially if we talking about stats and not skills.

That is RPG philosophy  basics invented by creators  of role play. There are other games you can play out there that give you instant gratification all you want.  Darkfall is not for everyone.

This game was advertised as a PvP game. Isn't the center of PvP even fights? Do you have much fun smacking someone down that is clearly inferior to you? I wouldn't enjoy it, but Im sure that some so-called "PvP'ers" would. Let me let you in on a secret: The other guy won't enjoy it. And he won't enjoy to have to grind for a year or more to be competitive.

A newbie has around 200 hps, a maxed out character has 450 hps. Furthermore, an advanced character has all kinds of resists to protect him, making his effective maximum hps even bigger. Add to that, that stats will add to the damage of the advanced character (strength will give higher melee damage, int higher spell damage), which effectively reduces the newbie's hitpoints.

Stats is as unbalancing a factor as skills in this game.

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And this is provided that gaining stats stays at the same rate. I don't know if it does.
Let us assume the best and say the rate stays the same:

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So most likely it's 3x the time that he calculated.

Here is the thing though: Stats are fairly worthless. They really don't add much of a difference. Someone was reporting decimal amounts of damage additions even with significant buffs in stats.

Skills on the other hand: they really matter and add significant bonuses. Talk to anyone with high level weapon or magic mastery skills.

Getting high skills is what he should be calculating to calculate the grind, not stats.

Let me make this clear, nobody that I know has ever complained about stat gain because every 1 vit gives you 2hp which is barely anything. I don't even care about my stats and I have 50+ Str/Vit, low dex (28)because I don't use archery, 70 intelligence, 47 wisdom. Stat gains are not that important only to an extent. Even mid 30s stats are easy and will be enough. The thread name is clearly trying to bash darkfall, no one WILL stare at the screen for 1400+ hours because we don't care about 100 100 100 100 100 100 in the stats. I'm not saying that you can't do it but it would be worth it to take it up gradually while training your skills. If you played this game for several months then you would understand. Otherwise you might be misleaded by this thread title.

 But who the fuck cares about stats in a MMORPG??

We play and have fun, otherwise you should play poker or something. 

last thing, stats in darkfall are not like stats in wow it's not as important and doesn't make as big of an impact on how strong the character is

Originally posted by wyrdaskolir

last thing, stats in darkfall are not like stats in wow it's not as important and doesn't make as big of an impact on how strong the character is

Newb = 200 hp.

Max = 450 hp.

More than double the power. Add to that strength/int bonuses to damage, quickness to rate of fire, etc. furthermore many stats help different resists.

Are you trying to kid yourself? Because you are not able to kid anyone else.

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Originally posted by Rasputin

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Originally posted by wyrdaskolir

last thing, stats in darkfall are not like stats in wow it's not as important and doesn't make as big of an impact on how strong the character is

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Newb = 200 hp.
Max = 450 hp.
More than double the power. Add to that strength/int bonuses to damage, quickness to rate of fire, etc. furthermore many stats help different resists.
 
Are you trying to kid yourself? Because you are not able to kid anyone else.

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First off wyrdaskolir is correct that stats really don't make a huge difference. Getting to 450hp includes grinding other hp affecting skills (I forget the names), not just stats. And damage bonuses you get from more str or int is almost undetectable.

Secondly, the most efficient way to grind stats (except wisdom) is by macro hitting other players, NOT gathering like this thread suggests.

Thirdly, huge differences in characters are defined by SKILLS not stats. A player with maxed archery and sharpshooter is going to hit something like 5x the amount, and have a faster arrow loading time, so the dps difference is astronomical. Add in maxed fire magic, and a new player has no chance in the world. No matter how good the new player is at dodging, you can't dodge MASSIVE aoes. Add in the huge amounts of money you have to acquire before you can even begin to grind, and the game simply becomes unfun.

This goes to all the haters, trolls, and fans: If you are going to complain about something, know the hell what you are talking about. Some of us are actively trying to lobby for grind reduction, and threads like this make our side look stupid.

Originally posted by Rasputin

Originally posted by wyrdaskolir

last thing, stats in darkfall are not like stats in wow it's not as important and doesn't make as big of an impact on how strong the character is

Newb = 200 hp.

Max = 450 hp.

More than double the power. Add to that strength/int bonuses to damage, quickness to rate of fire, etc. furthermore many stats help different resists.

 

Are you trying to kid yourself? Because you are not able to kid anyone else.

By the time one person reached 450hp everyone else in the game would have time for 350+hp. I only have 273 because I focus on magic and have more mana.

As the kind of a player that is looking for an MMO that I can play for several years, this does not bother me. People need to stop thinking of mmo's as rpgs. its not a two to three month experience.   If your goal is to get to max level asap, then perhaps mmo's, or at least DFO, isn't for you.

Originally posted by throckmorton

 

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Secondly, the most efficient way to grind stats (except wisdom) is by macro hitting other players, NOT gathering like this thread suggests.

Feel free to provide your own numbers. Im waiting in excitement at the shocking findings you will provide us to disprove me.

Originally posted by throckmorton

 

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Thirdly, huge differences in characters are defined by SKILLS not stats. A player with maxed archery and sharpshooter is going to hit something like 5x the amount, and have a faster arrow loading time, so the dps difference is astronomical. Add in maxed fire magic, and a new player has no chance in the world. No matter how good the new player is at dodging, you can't dodge MASSIVE aoes. Add in the huge amounts of money you have to acquire before you can even begin to grind, and the game simply becomes unfun.

This goes to all the haters, trolls, and fans: If you are going to complain about something, know the hell what you are talking about. Some of us are actively trying to lobby for grind reduction, and threads like this make our side look stupid.

Im not saying skills don't matter, but stats certainly do as well! Denying this is ignorance at an unprecedented level.

It is not just the skill grind that is important to address - it is all aspects of it. And a power difference of 150% on stats (not including damage and resist benefits)  is *NOT* something you can ignore. If you do, then it is YOU who is stupid, not I.

Originally posted by wyrdaskolir  

By the time one person reached 450hp everyone else in the game would have time for 350+hp. I only have 273 because I focus on magic and have more mana.

Jesus christ... Do you call a player with 350+ hp a newbie??? Im talking about a guy who begins on a very mature server. He will start with 200 hp! NOT 350+.

Even with 350 hp you will die again and again to guys with 450 - it is almost 25% difference in power.

Originally posted by dhayes68

As the kind of a player that is looking for an MMO that I can play for several years, this does not bother me. People need to stop thinking of mmo's as rpgs. its not a two to three month experience.   If your goal is to get to max level asap, then perhaps mmo's, or at least DFO, isn't for you.

What do you want to do in those "several years"? Do you want to lose again and again and again and again....?

Im asking  because if you face maxed out players, that is what you will do for the first 1-2 years.