Originally posted by Vyeth

I'd agree that there is some sort of discipline earned from hours of grinding. Focusing on any one task and attaining a goal is a reward all in itself, but don't go patting yourself on the back. Games are still a form of entertainment, which means that there are better ways of learning self discipline if that is your goal in the first place...

Some people take the fun out of games (grind), and in my opinion I'd rather get my self discipline skills from somewhere else and leave gaming for the fun side of life. :-)

Nicely said. 

Originally posted by Vrazule

Do I really have to spell it out for you?  It should have been obvious that my comment was in reference to the western market, since that is where this conversation is taking place, but whatever.

That's funny.  Seems to me that anyone who plays MMOs are considered mindless drones by the public at large, among other colorful labels as well.  A big part of that is because people see that the majority of gamers spend way too much time in game than is considered healthy.  I bet, if these MMOs had a lot less grinding, people would be less likely to sit in front of the computer for 6 hours straight.  Not only would this be healthier for the player, but would do tons to improve their real life image.

If you wanna build mental discipline you should play Lineage 2.

It was a good laugh. :)

On a second thought, when I read some answers, people seem to even believe this and this is kinda "dangerous".

Ok, guys:

Doing the same thing over and over for hours without thinking, like pressing *click,1,2,3*, makes you DUMB.

Mental discipline...lol. I am yet missing the *it is because of the lore* argument.

Originally posted by Herodes

It was a good laugh. :)

On a second thought, when I read some answers, people seem to even believe this and this is kinda "dangerous".

Ok, guys:

Doing the same thing over and over for hours without thinking, like pressing *click,1,2,3*, makes you DUMB.

Mental discipline...lol. I am yet missing the *it is because of the lore* argument.

Real grinders grind effciently, which requires thought.

Something N. American players have yet to master.

Originally posted by Emotep

Originally posted by Herodes

It was a good laugh. :)

On a second thought, when I read some answers, people seem to even believe this and this is kinda "dangerous".

Ok, guys:

Doing the same thing over and over for hours without thinking, like pressing *click,1,2,3*, makes you DUMB.

Mental discipline...lol. I am yet missing the *it is because of the lore* argument.

 

Real grinders grind effciently, which requires thought.

Something N. American players have yet to master.

Real grinders write bots and let the computer do what it's good at. This Eastern Grinders thing is a myth. There's a difference between "can't" and "are too smart to." Isn't the purpose of modern technology to relieve us from the drudgery and free up time to do what we want? I think some people are missing the point of the concept "game."  You're trying to make a virtue of stupidity.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Emotep

Originally posted by Herodes

It was a good laugh. :)

On a second thought, when I read some answers, people seem to even believe this and this is kinda "dangerous".

Ok, guys:

Doing the same thing over and over for hours without thinking, like pressing *click,1,2,3*, makes you DUMB.

Mental discipline...lol. I am yet missing the *it is because of the lore* argument.

 

Real grinders grind effciently, which requires thought.

Something N. American players have yet to master.

 

Real grinders write bots and let the computer do what it's good at. This Eastern Grinders thing is a myth. There's a difference between "can't" and "are too smart to." Isn't the purpose of modern technology to relieve us from the drudgery and free up time to do what we want? I think some people are missing the point of the concept "game."  You're trying to make a virtue of stupidity.

Sounds like another N. American MMORPG player that is afraid of working hard.

Originally posted by Emotep

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Emotep

Originally posted by Herodes

It was a good laugh. :)

On a second thought, when I read some answers, people seem to even believe this and this is kinda "dangerous".

Ok, guys:

Doing the same thing over and over for hours without thinking, like pressing *click,1,2,3*, makes you DUMB.

Mental discipline...lol. I am yet missing the *it is because of the lore* argument.

 

Real grinders grind effciently, which requires thought.

Something N. American players have yet to master.

 

Real grinders write bots and let the computer do what it's good at. This Eastern Grinders thing is a myth. There's a difference between "can't" and "are too smart to." Isn't the purpose of modern technology to relieve us from the drudgery and free up time to do what we want? I think some people are missing the point of the concept "game."  You're trying to make a virtue of stupidity.

 

Sounds like another N. American MMORPG player that is afraid of working hard.

yeah you know us lazy americans......wheres my wife? i need a beer.

Originally posted by maacaaviityy

I find the dumbest and most braindead people to be the best grinders.
See what I did there?
 

The grinders are usually the best players in the game.

There has never been, and never will be an epic casual player.

Originally posted by Herodes

It was a good laugh. :)

On a second thought, when I read some answers, people seem to even believe this and this is kinda "dangerous".

Ok, guys:

Doing the same thing over and over for hours without thinking, like pressing *click,1,2,3*, makes you DUMB.

Mental discipline...lol. I am yet missing the *it is because of the lore* argument.
 

Well, I don't believe that the grinding itself builds mental discipline but it can be used in a positive way.

For one, I do some of my best thinking while grinding. I essenially put on good music, perhaps a good beer or wine and I start. I relax and can really think about things. It's a bit zen for me.

For instance, I used it to outline a good part of a play I've been working on as well as solve some musical issues that I was having with another project.

For me it's about sitting still and just allowing myself to think in a relaxed way.

what I don't get is why people focus so much time on the video game grind when they could spend that time on real-life grinds that are far more rewarding. and don't say thats a matter of perspective. your health, your education, and your career are the only grinds you should really worry about. the rest is all fun for fun. if playing vids in any way has become "a grind" then I think you're wasting your time.

maybe I should've also included the girlfriend grind?

Originally posted by Emotep

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Emotep

Originally posted by Herodes

It was a good laugh. :)

On a second thought, when I read some answers, people seem to even believe this and this is kinda "dangerous".

Ok, guys:

Doing the same thing over and over for hours without thinking, like pressing *click,1,2,3*, makes you DUMB.

Mental discipline...lol. I am yet missing the *it is because of the lore* argument.

 

Real grinders grind effciently, which requires thought.

Something N. American players have yet to master.

 

Real grinders write bots and let the computer do what it's good at. This Eastern Grinders thing is a myth. There's a difference between "can't" and "are too smart to." Isn't the purpose of modern technology to relieve us from the drudgery and free up time to do what we want? I think some people are missing the point of the concept "game."  You're trying to make a virtue of stupidity.

 

Sounds like another N. American MMORPG player that is afraid of working hard.

I work hard at work. I play hard at play. I don't sit on my ass and kill mobs for hours on end and call it hardcore.  There's nothing hard about grinding a monkey can be trained to do it and earn a few coins in the process. There's no nobility in toil. Toil is stupid.

 Someone should start a thread called: How different MMOs change its players psyche. I guess WOW would be well discussed then. 

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Emotep

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Emotep

Originally posted by Herodes

It was a good laugh. :)

On a second thought, when I read some answers, people seem to even believe this and this is kinda "dangerous".

Ok, guys:

Doing the same thing over and over for hours without thinking, like pressing *click,1,2,3*, makes you DUMB.

Mental discipline...lol. I am yet missing the *it is because of the lore* argument.

 

Real grinders grind effciently, which requires thought.

Something N. American players have yet to master.

 

Real grinders write bots and let the computer do what it's good at. This Eastern Grinders thing is a myth. There's a difference between "can't" and "are too smart to." Isn't the purpose of modern technology to relieve us from the drudgery and free up time to do what we want? I think some people are missing the point of the concept "game."  You're trying to make a virtue of stupidity.

 

Sounds like another N. American MMORPG player that is afraid of working hard.

 

I work hard at work. I play hard at play. I don't sit on my ass and kill mobs for hours on end and call it hardcore.  There's nothing hard about grinding a monkey can be trained to do it and earn a few coins in the process. There's no nobility in toil. Toil is stupid.

I completely agree. Of course, going by his other posts, all MMO's should only be grinds and that training mobs, harassing players and camping players should be the only goals and skills needed.

Anyway.....I agree with Sovrath above that grinding can lead you to deep thinking. However so can anything. I have plenty of time to think while I am doing other mundane activities. When I am cleaning my house, I am not thinking about cleaning, I am thinking about other stuff.

Grinding is truly more than just a repetitive task. It is a repetitive task with no real immediate reward and also a state of mind that leads to very simplistic or mind-numbing thought process (when taken itself). Nothing about the activity itself is rewarding until a lot later on (and these rewards can be debated). As you said, it is toil.

The best example of toil is "The Myth of Sisyphus". Written by Albert Camus, it explains that Sisyphus was damned to hell by the gods. In hell for Eternity, he was condemned to roll a huge boulder up a hill, only to stop and watch it roll back down.

Camus uses this to illustrate our daily lives - the daily grind as it is called. Get up, go to work, come home, sleep and repeat. It is not very rewarding (and remember Camus like Sartre was an existentialist so rewards like money and cars don't count).

Camus says that for him, that pause is what interests him. That pause where Sisyphus goes back down the hill to repeat his task. In that moment Sisyphus is alive and has his reason for being - he is greater than his toil and he must be "happy".

Sorry to get so philosophical but its my fav story and I use it in my classes. And to relate it to this thread - the grind itself isn't the reward, it is why we grind. If we grind in MMO's for other reasons like spending time with friends, or as Sovrath says use it to think of bigger things, meet new people, etc..... then the grind isn't a grind. We are greater than the grind and it stops being a grind or a toil.

Therefore the "mental discipline" comes from being greater than the grind and not the grind itself.

That has to be the most serious thing I have ever typed on these forums.

uh grinding = wax on, wax off.

Originally posted by templarga

I completely agree. Of course, going by his other posts, all MMO's should only be grinds and that training mobs, harassing players and camping players should be the only goals and skills needed.

Anyway.....I agree with Sovrath above that grinding can lead you to deep thinking. However so can anything. I have plenty of time to think while I am doing other mundane activities. When I am cleaning my house, I am not thinking about cleaning, I am thinking about other stuff.

Grinding is truly more than just a repetitive task. It is a repetitive task with no real immediate reward and also a state of mind that leads to very simplistic or mind-numbing thought process (when taken itself). Nothing about the activity itself is rewarding until a lot later on (and these rewards can be debated). As you said, it is toil.

The best example of toil is "The Myth of Sisyphus". Written by Albert Camus, it explains that Sisyphus was damned to hell by the gods. In hell for Eternity, he was condemned to roll a huge boulder up a hill, only to stop and watch it roll back down.

Camus uses this to illustrate our daily lives - the daily grind as it is called. Get up, go to work, come home, sleep and repeat. It is not very rewarding (and remember Camus like Sartre was an existentialist so rewards like money and cars don't count).

Camus says that for him, that pause is what interests him. That pause where Sisyphus goes back down the hill to repeat his task. In that moment Sisyphus is alive and has his reason for being - he is greater than his toil and he must be "happy".

Sorry to get so philosophical but its my fav story and I use it in my classes. And to relate it to this thread - the grind itself isn't the reward, it is why we grind. If we grind in MMO's for other reasons like spending time with friends, or as Sovrath says use it to think of bigger things, meet new people, etc..... then the grind isn't a grind. We are greater than the grind and it stops being a grind or a toil.

Therefore the "mental discipline" comes from being greater than the grind and not the grind itself.

That has to be the most serious thing I have ever typed on these forums.

Well put.

Ok. I have cleaned up this thread a little bit. Let's stay on topic with this one. Some of you have some really good input on this discussion and I would much rather keep it going than locking it down at this point.

Carry on the discussion, but keep the rules of conduct in mind everyone. :D

Originally posted by Emotep

My legion kicked out 2 players for complaining about grinding past level 20 during Closed Beta 5

It's a good way to weed out undisciplined players.

And the name of your legion is?

Sheep lovers, maybe. :D

Why would anyone be concerned at all with discipline at all in a video game of all things? Shouldn't you measure a game on how fun it is?

Games are meant to be fun.

Not boring grind deemed "hardwork" 

Why would you pick up a game to add more "hardwork" to your life? Or you could play something entertaining and fun. Your logic confuses me op.

Originally posted by Cathalaode

Why would anyone be concerned at all with discipline at all in a video game of all things? Shouldn't you measure a game on how fun it is?

MMO gaming is becoming more like a social medium and less like a game. It's a virtual chat room and all the levels, gear and ranking simply increase your social status within the medium. Sometimes fun can take a back seat to having all the best gear and best stats.