My curiosity is still following Darkfall (although my brain is telling me not to $ it), and Im reading thru the Darkfall website front page today and it links to MMORPG.com Darkfall story.

In this story the guild tells about its Bloodwall and how the players were "so tired" of playing that they macro'd themselves up and mashed the bloodwall all night.  (so much fun btw) 

So with this story on the FRONT PAGE of Darkfall, are they promoting it?  They may as well list it as a feature...

Doubtful, it might just be an outlook as to how the game itself is boring to play for most? I dunno :D

yeah my thought is it gives the players something to do.

The bloodwall in DFO is a double-edged sword...yeah, you can skill up quickly, but you are not learning how to fight and survive in combat.

On a bloodwall, you hit STATIONARY people to skill up, usually people who are afk. In combat, you have someone moving and jumping and HITTING back. It doesn't matter how high your skill levels are if you can't fight strategically. I've seen many a bloodwaller pwned by someone with lower skills, simply because they can't fight well.

The best way to skill up is by actually fighting instead of engaging in a simplistic form of  target practice.

 While there's some truth to the player skill ve. skill level argument, keep in mind that twinks exist in games for a reason, typically because they' have a substantial play advantage over other characters of the same level.  Bloodwallers (active or passive) and other afk skill levelers are basically twinks, but in skill, not gear. Skill level can make a huge difference between two players battling each other.

Also, is it not true that the AFK players being beaten are leveling up their defensive skills, too? As such, they're getting innate defensive advantages over other players who don't AFK at bloodwalls.

Regardless, the entire argument is a bit ridiculous. It's a flawed game design. The game should encourage playres to go out and play and should limit opportunities for laziness.  AFter all, this is supposed to be a nice, hardcore title, so why aren't more players actually "playing"?

Also, I find it interesting that Stradden doesn't seem to have received a reply to his email to Tasos in which Stradden asked about the bloodwalls. If Aventurine allows them then they contradict themselves on other afk playing options (macros and auto-running into objects/swimming).  If they publicly denounce bloodwalls, then they basically admit their design is flawed and potentially lose a significant chunk of their already small playerbase who wouldn't play without using bloodwalls or other, similar aspects of the games design.

~Ripper

Actually, the best way to skill up is to hack.  Some of those youtube vids are effin hilarious.

Originally posted by rhinok

 While there's some truth to the player skill ve. skill level argument, keep in mind that twinks exist in games for a reason, typically because they' have a substantial play advantage over other characters of the same level.  Bloodwallers (active or passive) and other afk skill levelers are basically twinks, but in skill, not gear. Skill level can make a huge difference between two players battling each other.

Also, is it not true that the AFK players being beaten are leveling up their defensive skills, too? As such, they're getting innate defensive advantages over other players who don't AFK at bloodwalls.

Regardless, the entire argument is a bit ridiculous. It's a flawed game design. The game should encourage playres to go out and play and should limit opportunities for laziness.  AFter all, this is supposed to be a nice, hardcore title, so why aren't more players actually "playing"?

Also, I find it interesting that Stradden doesn't seem to have received a reply to his email to Tasos in which Stradden asked about the bloodwalls. If Aventurine allows them then they contradict themselves on other afk playing options (macros and auto-running into objects/swimming).  If they publicly denounce bloodwalls, then they basically admit their design is flawed and potentially lose a significant chunk of their already small playerbase who wouldn't play without using bloodwalls or other, similar aspects of the games design.

 

~Ripper

The inherent problem and flaw in the game design is that the progression curve is far to rewarding in terms of player power levels. So while the player skill vs charecter development level is valid to an extent, it is ultimately overshadowed by the unlimited power gains related to skills & stats. Ultimately the game is about charecter development & stats, because the advantages given by those 2 catagories is far to excessive for a pvp game.

Players who refuse to bloodwall or macro will ultimately be in a no win situation. its not really nessicary to do both,but skilling up is a requirement if you want to remain competitive,or even attempt to. With the current game design, lack of hard or soft caps, decay , and exponential power gains in the more advanced skills, new players or players who refuse to "cheat" are just not relavent honestly.

The simple fact is that AV does not enforce there policy, so its abused and ignored by a large portion of the playerbase. The policy doesnt even really make sense in many respects becuase the game design is contrary to the policy itself.

As far as being a hardcore title in reality its not, Frankly its just  a Gank/PK game, with 90% of the pvp falling into this cataogory. The actual PVP battles that do not include ganking or very low risk player killing are very minimal. I enjoy the game for what it is, but its very obvious to anyone who has played MMO's for any time what this game is, and why it will ultimately fail or have to be drastically changed.

Bloodwalls don't necessarily make you suck at PVP. Just keep it balanced, bloodwall ocassionally and PVP other times

Originally posted by cfurlin

The bloodwall in DFO is a double-edged sword...yeah, you can skill up quickly, but you are not learning how to fight and survive in combat.

....go ahead give us an encore

Depends how you want to look at it really. I know some people who will grind all the way up to mastery on purely a bloodwall. I see a bloodwall as more of a punch bag system, kind of how they do in those shaolin monasteries; kicking each others balls and smashing peoples heads into walls and bags etc. So you have the bloodwall, which you treat as like a punch bag. I only ever use a bloodwall if I'm close to hitting the next 10; say, my axes are at 48.00 etc. Then I'll grind up the last two notches. On top of the bloodwall you often get each other sparring on each other. Which is a good way to get skills up, and test how you are in battle. I tend to do this quite a lot, it really does help. Everyone does it too, if you're in a clan and you're in your clan town or city etc, you'll always get a friend running up behind you and whacking you, expecting you to turn around and challenge him to a duel. Then you have the mobs and the pvp. That's where it really matters, you can skill up pretty well on mobs, I do all the time, keeps me filled with gold and regs for magic too. So it all works out. So I don't personally see a bloodwall as a bad thing, if someone is crazy enough and is determined enough to stand at one all day and whack someone, it's no different to someone going out in the world and raising their skills hunting mobs. The difference is one's going to be richer than the other.

Originally posted by heathenscum

Depends how you want to look at it really. I know some people who will grind all the way up to mastery on purely a bloodwall. I see a bloodwall as more of a punch bag system, kind of how they do in those shaolin monasteries; kicking each others balls and smashing peoples heads into walls and bags etc. So you have the bloodwall, which you treat as like a punch bag. I only ever use a bloodwall if I'm close to hitting the next 10; say, my axes are at 48.00 etc. Then I'll grind up the last two notches. On top of the bloodwall you often get each other sparring on each other. Which is a good way to get skills up, and test how you are in battle. I tend to do this quite a lot, it really does help. Everyone does it too, if you're in a clan and you're in your clan town or city etc, you'll always get a friend running up behind you and whacking you, expecting you to turn around and challenge him to a duel. Then you have the mobs and the pvp. That's where it really matters, you can skill up pretty well on mobs, I do all the time, keeps me filled with gold and regs for magic too. So it all works out. So I don't personally see a bloodwall as a bad thing, if someone is crazy enough and is determined enough to stand at one all day and whack someone, it's no different to someone going out in the world and raising their skills hunting mobs. The difference is one's going to be richer than the other.

Which is richer depends really. The benefit of bloodwalls is that 1) you are safer since your in your clan city and generally have a number of people to aid you if something does happen. 2) Your armor isn't being damaged and needing to be replaced. The only thing that needs replacing is your weapon.

If you go skillup on mobs your are at a greater risk, have armor to replace and if your smart you in a group with others which means you have to split that loot. I remember 5 of us going out farming stuff together on a regular basis when I played. We did this for awhile then eventually just stopped because it wasn't worth it. Lets say in a hour you made 10k, sounds sweet right? Well devide by 5, leaves you with 2k each, now replace the armor you lost and the weapons (Things do break). Tell me if that hour was worth it lol. I made more farming goblins, trolls, skellies solo in an hour myself and those were easy but  the skillups were sooo slow because it doesn't take much to kill them. So I either got good skillups and no money or very slow skillups and ok money. Or I could simply do the blood wall, which means I don't have to travel, don't lose armor, am a great deal safer, don't have to worry about it being over camped, and so on.

There are many reasons bloodwall is by far the most popular form of skillups now. It use to be rare, but now it's common practice.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by heathenscum

Depends how you want to look at it really. I know some people who will grind all the way up to mastery on purely a bloodwall. I see a bloodwall as more of a punch bag system, kind of how they do in those shaolin monasteries; kicking each others balls and smashing peoples heads into walls and bags etc. So you have the bloodwall, which you treat as like a punch bag. I only ever use a bloodwall if I'm close to hitting the next 10; say, my axes are at 48.00 etc. Then I'll grind up the last two notches. On top of the bloodwall you often get each other sparring on each other. Which is a good way to get skills up, and test how you are in battle. I tend to do this quite a lot, it really does help. Everyone does it too, if you're in a clan and you're in your clan town or city etc, you'll always get a friend running up behind you and whacking you, expecting you to turn around and challenge him to a duel. Then you have the mobs and the pvp. That's where it really matters, you can skill up pretty well on mobs, I do all the time, keeps me filled with gold and regs for magic too. So it all works out. So I don't personally see a bloodwall as a bad thing, if someone is crazy enough and is determined enough to stand at one all day and whack someone, it's no different to someone going out in the world and raising their skills hunting mobs. The difference is one's going to be richer than the other.

 

Which is richer depends really. The benefit of bloodwalls is that 1) you are safer since your in your clan city and generally have a number of people to aid you if something does happen. 2) Your armor isn't being damaged and needing to be replaced. The only thing that needs replacing is your weapon.

If you go skillup on mobs your are at a greater risk, have armor to replace and if your smart you in a group with others which means you have to split that loot. I remember 5 of us going out farming stuff together on a regular basis when I played. We did this for awhile then eventually just stopped because it wasn't worth it. Lets say in a hour you made 10k, sounds sweet right? Well devide by 5, leaves you with 2k each, now replace the armor you lost and the weapons (Things do break). Tell me if that hour was worth it lol. I made more farming goblins, trolls, skellies solo in an hour myself and those were easy but  the skillups were sooo slow because it doesn't take much to kill them. So I either got good skillups and no money or very slow skillups and ok money. Or I could simply do the blood wall, which means I don't have to travel, don't lose armor, am a great deal safer, don't have to worry about it being over camped, and so on.

There are many reasons bloodwall is by far the most popular form of skillups now. It use to be rare, but now it's common practice.

Aye, I agree with you mate.

Originally posted by rhinok

Also, is it not true that the AFK players being beaten are leveling up their defensive skills, too? As such, they're getting innate defensive advantages over other players who don't AFK at bloodwalls.

 

The max effect  of defensive skill gain is in numbers  0.5 protection  so i have heard (personally didn't reached max on that stat).

 A simple 3 piece chain armor that any armorsmith can craft at level 1 gives you 1.0 -1.2 of protection. What an immense defensive advantage for someone having spending months on afk bloodwall to get 0.5 protection lol..

Yes this clan and so many others promoting and thinking this is the way it should be played afk-macro and afk bloodwallls +afk running and swimming.

They prolly also exploit bug out mobs like crazy as they do on on eu-1 from day1:(

Interesting observation.  Virtually every active gamer in DF admit using afk macroing or bloodwall or similar exploits.  Even Javac admit he did.

Now Darth and Evasia come and lecture us saying afk macroing does not help much or matter, or is unethical exploits.

If the whole server or most of them does something, either everyone is wrong about it usefulness, or Darth is bullshitting.  Take your pick.

If the game is designed in such a way that the most rewarding skill up is through blood wall (check Ghost's detail analysis), then it is either a failed game design, or totally ineffective enforcement.  Raising the banner of moral righteousness is stupidity to extreme.  DF is labelled as game in which the gamer take pride eating each other.  Moral in this game?  Give me a break.

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by rhinok

Also, is it not true that the AFK players being beaten are leveling up their defensive skills, too? As such, they're getting innate defensive advantages over other players who don't AFK at bloodwalls.

 

 

The max effect  of defensive skill gain is in numbers  0.5 protection  so i have heard (personally didn't reached max on that stat).

 A simple 3 piece chain armor that any armorsmith can craft at level 1 gives you 1.0 -1.2 of protection. What an immense defensive advantage for someone having spending months on afk bloodwall to get 0.5 protection lol..

 

If I remember correct Max Rigor and Ignore pain gave something like 1.0 together, Wearing Scale on up with the two maxed out can make for some hard to kill adversaries.

Just trying to keep you honest Darth.

Meh, I don't think I'll ever use a bloodwall on the game. I have no idea what game people used to play but Darkfall grind is not even close to Lineage II or Final Fantasy. It's not WOW but it's not that bad. I started to level up my archery skills via killing goblins and some pvp. Concentrating only on that for a few hours, I'm already near level 50. It is slowing down but I am starting to think that most players in DF have never played an old school MMO like Mankind or UO.

Some skills in Mankind took 6 months in Real life to level and that's NOT a high end skill, that was just like a new research for your nation.... The epic researches took 2 real life years to level up. That was sorta ridiculous but we managed to do it.

Originally posted by Ponico

Meh, I don't think I'll ever use a bloodwall on the game. I have no idea what game people used to play but Darkfall grind is not even close to Lineage II or Final Fantasy. It's not WOW but it's not that bad. I started to level up my archery skills via killing goblins and some pvp. Concentrating only on that for a few hours, I'm already near level 50. It is slowing down but I am starting to think that most players in DF have never played an old school MMO like Mankind or UO.

Some skills in Mankind took 6 months in Real life to level and that's NOT a high end skill, that was just like a new research for your nation.... The epic researches took 2 real life years to level up. That was sorta ridiculous but we managed to do it.

Alright a fellow FFXI player...... I played on Ifrit and garuda. Most knew me as Dicio.

Your still in the early part of the game, the grind starts to hit you a bit later on. And yeah, it's worse than FFXI. I didn't mind the grind there played for 5 years even met my wife in FFXI.

Also played UO from launch till a few months after AoS. Took a few years break came back again. Currently we have the Stygian Abyss Open beta going on in UO lol. Enjoying some of the new stuff and I want a skree now for my tamer :(.

Edited to add: What you will notice is a lot of people that have followed DFO are old UO players. Some of us are current UO players still.

Well, we will see how things goes when I get to the more tedious grinding. Though, I doubt I’ll ever be competitive in the sense of being maxed out. One thing though, do we have a cap on skills or you can be archery level 3000?

Originally posted by Ponico

Well, we will see how things goes when I get to the more tedious grinding. Though, I doubt I’ll ever be competitive in the sense of being maxed out. One thing though, do we have a cap on skills or you can be archery level 3000?

Caps 100, but you have to raise the skill, then the mastery in most cases (Mastery is much harder to raise) for weapons each individual special move needs to be skilled up as well such as knock back, power attack etc. So buckle down because your about halfway through the first section of skill ups lol.