If you think Oblivion is a good RPG, you should try other solid RPG titles like Far Cry or Bioshock.

I have exactly different opinion, single player RPG since Vampire Bloodlines went downhill horribly. Mass Effect is an RPG? It's a bloody shooter with a few dialogues, Neverwinter Nights 2? Come on, Oblivion? FPS Aim, quest tracker, instant travel, level scale -- that doesn't make an RPG, that makes a shooter.

The last good RPG I can think of was Wizardry 8 and Baldur's Gate. Single RPG genre is dying more than anything. People keep calling these shooters with a bits of character customization roleplaying games, but they aren't.

Actually I think single player RPGs have become much worse in the last 10 years and MMOs have become much better.

Compare Baldurs gate, Planescape:Torment, Fallout 1-2, Neverwinter nights to the single player RPGs of today :(

Seems like MMOs have been evolving alot more than the single player RPGs...

Originally posted by Thillian

If you think Oblivion is a good RPG, you should try other solid RPG titles like Far Cry or Bioshock.

I have exactly different opinion, single player RPG since Vampire Bloodlines went downhill horribly. Mass Effect is an RPG? It's a bloody shooter with a few dialogues, Neverwinter Nights 2? Come on, Oblivion? FPS Aim, quest tracker, instant travel, level scale -- that doesn't make an RPG, that makes a shooter.

The last good RPG I can think of was Wizardry 8 and Baldur's Gate. Single RPG genre is dying more than anything. People keep calling these shooters with a bits of character customization roleplaying games, but they aren't.

What you really mean is, the last good RPG THAT you played were Wizardry 8 and Baldur's Gate. Notice that i put the word "THAT" in caps,it's just me making a point about what RPG you think are good.

I played both the above games and many more but for me GOTHIC 1 and Gothic 2 "Night of the raven" kick both the above mentioned games all over the place,and they are less than 10 years old.

www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/gothic

www.gamershell.com/pc/gothic_2_night_of_the_raven/review.html

uk.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/gothiciithenightoftheraven/index.html

The AI in these games is the best i have ever seen to date in any RPG.

If you have not played these RPG then i sugest you do... :-)

I did Billy I did. Gothic 2 was released in 2002 if I'm not mistaken (around the time Wizardry 8 was released). It was solid and it would be great if Gothic 3 would have the same quality. It didn't. And it's exactly what I was talking about. Single player RPG went downhill -> Bioware which had some great titles are now making shooters, Bathesda that was doing great sandbox rpg's are now putting level scale, instant travel, quest trackers, and more focus on FPS combat aiming into their games, SSI & westwood are dead for some time (old school AD&D dungeons), Sir-Tech is dead (wizardry series), 3do is dead (might and magic series), Troika is dead (greyhawk, arcanum, fallout 1-2) please remind me some more.

Now we get FPS aiming, lots of action, lots of in-game cut scenes and videos, It's an rpg for children or a shooter for adults. But there're no RPGs for adults nowadays.

Originally posted by Thillian

I did Billy I did. Gothic 2 was released in 2002 if I'm not mistaken (around the time Wizardry 8 was released). It was solid and it would be great if Gothic 3 would have the same quality. It didn't. And it's exactly what I was talking about. Single player RPG went downhill -> Bioware which had some great titles are now making shooters, Bathesda that was doing great sandbox rpg's are now putting level scale, instant travel, quest trackers, and more focus on FPS combat aiming into their games, SSI & westwood are dead for some time (old school AD&D dungeons), Sir-Tech is dead (wizardry series), 3do is dead (might and magic series), Troika is dead (greyhawk, arcanum, fallout 1-2) please remind me some more.

Now we get FPS aiming, lots of action, lots of in-game cut scenes and videos, It's an rpg for children or a shooter for adults. But there're no RPGs for adults nowadays.

Yeah i understand what you are saying. Let's hope that Risen risen.deepsilver.com/game/index.html#en brings back that real RPG feeling.

www.jeuxvideo.com/gaming_live/0000/00002739/risen_1_2_l_intelligence_artificielle_f1q1.htm

www.jeuxvideo.com/gaming_live/0000/00002740/risen_2_2_les_interactions_avec_l_univers_f1q1.htm

risen.deepsilver.com/blog/pages/en/news/news.php

First off vanilla oblivion is / was terrible. Thankfully there are plenty of mods found available. Saying they drasticly improve the game is an understatement.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Recommended_Mods

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/top/

http://amito.freehostia.com/index.html

There are so many great mods for oblivion that can completely transform the game into something great, at minimium i strongly suggest at least an overhaul mod like OOO or Fran's. MMM, Warcry and Deadly Reflex are all 3 great options but the FCOM is unrivaled. 

I prefer Fran's+MMM+Midas Magic Spells of Aurum+Supreme Magicka and around 30 other minor mods. Natural Environments is also a must have. Make sure you slow your leveling speed down 50% otherwise you'll level to fast with fran's+mmm.

Between Fallout 3, Mass Effect, GTA 4, and TF2, I haven't had to long into an MMORPG for months.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Draco91

-Forced First Person Perspective Helps Immersion: Only true if done right.

 

It's unnecessary to point out that "doing things poorly is bad."

Forced 1st Person means games where you're always in 1st person, with the possible exceptions of Exhibition (VATS) or Vanity camera angles (basically something you can't walk around with, possibly limited to the noncombat areas of the game.)

I know what forced first person is :) and my point was that, if done right, first person view doesn't even have to be forced to increase immersion. EQ first person wasn't forced, but it helped with immersion. I was saying much more than "doing things poorly is bad." ;)

I don't know of any MMOs whatsoever that ever FORCED first person. Heck, even Oblivion (I know it isn't an MMO, but it's the OP's example of what should be) doesn't FORCE it. You can play Oblivion in third person. It just sucks that way.

Oblivion is not even close as being a great RPG. It's not a bad game but if an mmo similar to oblivion comes out, then I see no point in paying for that.

Baldurs gate, Fallout 2 were good RPGs...

Gothic 1-3 were great, and soon Risen =)

And of course Baldurs Gate and Fallout )

Originally posted by Draco91

I know what forced first person is :) and my point was that, if done right, first person view doesn't even have to be forced to increase immersion. EQ first person wasn't forced, but it helped with immersion. I was saying much more than "doing things poorly is bad." ;)

I don't know of any MMOs whatsoever that ever FORCED first person. Heck, even Oblivion (I know it isn't an MMO, but it's the OP's example of what should be) doesn't FORCE it. You can play Oblivion in third person. It just sucks that way.

 Well my point (which admittedly I didn't describe well) was that games with a focus on 1st person cam will typically put in the effort to really make it awesome - especially if it's the only camera the game has.

The people I worked with who worked on Oblivions admit to a lot of the game's mistakes, including 3rd person cam.  Basically without making the animations look right they said it shouldn't have been an option.

The biggest problem with non-forced 1st is that typically 3rd person offers huge tactical advantages and players end up playing with it so they can see over terrain and around walls where their character can't.

Also to be clear I'm not trying to say 1st Person Cam is the best choice for RPGs.  It's may be more immersive by a longshot, but 3rd person cam has very strong advantages of its own (hence why we see it in so many games.)

Originally posted by Kilmar

Gothic 1-3 were great, and soon Risen =)

And of course Baldurs Gate and Fallout )

Hmm, i am kind of with you on this :-)

Gothic 1 is a fantastic sandbox open world RPG ,better than Morrowind (i like morrowind) but for me Gothic 1 kicks it's butt.

Gothic 2 is nearly as good but with better graphics.

Gothic 2 "The Night Of The Raven" kicks every single RPG out there in to touch,seriously this RPG is an epic and puts Oblivion and BioWare RPG games(inclding KOTOR) TO shame.

Baldur's Gate was a great  rpg  just as Baldur's gate 2 was.

Fallout 1-2 are good games but i found FallOut 3 to be pretty boring.

Mass Effect is a good RPG but again i found it to be pretty restrictive, loads of desolate worlds and 'ground hog day' gameplay.

Gothic 4 is coming out in 8 weeks but it's not the same dev team,they are making 'Risen'(which you know :-) which will be out in 8 weeks as well.

Risen.. looks great.

www.jeuxvideo.com/gaming_live/0000/00002739/risen_1_2_l_intelligence_artificielle_f1q1.htm

www.jeuxvideo.com/gaming_live/0000/00002740/risen_2_2_les_interactions_avec_l_univers_f1q1.htm

Why u would even compare the two obviously different game styles, (MMO vs. SP) makes ur post  worthless for me to even waste time reading.

I played Oblivion for 3 weeks, and was extremely bored of it. Its basically the same action over and over again.

I've been playing MMOs for 9 years now. No contest. Its the interaction with other players that make MMOs strive, imo.

I like a great RPG but their is nothing better than a great working mmorpg. That feeling of being  in a massive world with other players is a great feeling, especially if the game has a mature crowd.

Ugh, Oblivion. Oblivion wasnt half the rpg that Morrowind was.

That killed your whole post for me.

Originally posted by logangregor

Ugh, Oblivion. Oblivion wasnt half the rpg that Morrowind was.

That killed your whole post for me.

Totally agree, we already have many MMOs as shallow and half-assed as Oblivion already...

Originally posted by logangregor

Ugh, Oblivion. Oblivion wasnt half the rpg that Morrowind was.

That killed your whole post for me.

That doesn't even makes sense... there is a Mod that adds the morrowind areas to oblivion.

Seriously a heavily + well moded oblivion is the best single-player rpg game on the market. Just too many morons try to play it vanilla. (and then wonder why it sucks)

Since Moding isn't easy I guess its a noob filter of sorts.

MMO's cannot compete with solo rpgs where 'you' are the hero.

LotRo and AoC did well with the idea of players as a group or individualy having a destiny unfold. But it is hard for a MMO to truely shine in this playstyle when compaired to a solo game.

Originally posted by Shazzel1

That doesn't even makes sense... there is a Mod that adds the morrowind areas to oblivion.

Seriously a heavily + well moded oblivion is the best single-player rpg game on the market. Just too many morons try to play it vanilla. (and then wonder why it sucks)

Since Moding isn't easy I guess its a noob filter of sorts.

If you have to mod a game to make it fun, the it wasn't a well designed game in the first place.

That does not some how magically make the un-modded game better.  On the contrary, if you need to mod a game to make it fun then something is seriously wrong with the original content.