First of all lets do the things that can and should have been done like for example do away or severely limit medical malpractice claims.    The vast majority of doctors do a great  job taking care of us but are forced to pay huge malpractice insurance premiums to protect themselves from insane damage awards.   Either the doctor quits practicing in fields like OB/GYN or passes the premiums to the consumer.   This nothing for quality of health care and raises costs.   This should be an issue that could be tackled bipartisanly. 

Second  Take an in depth look at why medical care costs are rising higher than inflation.   Then try to come up with true bipartisan solutions.   This can be done.   Some of Bill Clinton's accomplishments were when he brought Republicans on board.  NAFTA for example.

I'm sure that some on the Left are thinking that the people on the Right are screaming NO just to spite and block them.   I worry about the costs of the health care reform bill.   In my reasoning a bloated bill leads to bloated government.  We are already in hock $11 trillion.  I would rather not add to it.   I think others on the Right share my concerns and the Left would be wise to address them.

Come up with a true bipartisan bill.  If nothing gets done about rising health care costs who's to blame?   I think the blame should go to the side that controls government.

Let's not forget about doing away with the "pre-existing condition", providing an affordable heathcare option for those currently unemployed, providing an affordable heathcare option  for those currently employed so the employer has to pay less into it and possible pays the employee more, and we also want to severely limit the ability of Insurance Companies to refuse to pay for critical medical care of those they cover.

Wait..... Silly me..... I just described Obama's proposed healthcare reform...

Oh god, I must be a Nazi Marxist Socialist! I apparently want to kill the sick, elderly, and handicapped. I mean... I never mentioned those things... but I did agree with President Barack Obama....

Originally posted by Laserwolf

Let's not forget about doing away with the "pre-existing condition", providing an affordable heathcare option for those currently unemployed, providing an affordable heathcare option  for those currently employed so the employer has to pay less into it and possible pays the employee more, and we also want to severely limit the ability of Insurance Companies to refuse to pay for critical medical care of those they cover.

Wait..... Silly me..... I just described Obama's proposed healthcare reform...

 

Oh god, I must be a Nazi Marxist Socialist! I apparently want to kill the sick, elderly, and handicapped. I mean... I never mentioned those things... but I did agree with President Barack Obama....

 

I have to admit man, at first I really doubted the ability of Obama's plan.

Then I went into the Education Camp, I learned that in fact Obama is savior.

Without Obama who else could be Obama?

After I received my mandatory option number plate engraved into my left arm, I realized that without Obama NONE of this could of happened.

Once I was done with the Education Camp I was allowed to finally realize the health care plan was in fact good.

Two days later I too was A Nazi Marxist Socialist (from the future) who wanted to kill the sick,elderly,handicapped, AND FIREMEN.

We have no choice to agree with Lord Obama, it is mandate.

Seriously though that's how people want to make those of us who see that this plan may be a change needed. Hell if it backfires I'll make fun of it anyhow.

Originally posted by Laserwolf

Let's not forget about doing away with the "pre-existing condition"

I agree not to exclude it, but they should be charged a higher premium.

Never assume greater risk without greater return.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Laserwolf

Let's not forget about doing away with the "pre-existing condition", providing an affordable heathcare option for those currently unemployed, providing an affordable heathcare option  for those currently employed so the employer has to pay less into it and possible pays the employee more, and we also want to severely limit the ability of Insurance Companies to refuse to pay for critical medical care of those they cover.

Wait..... Silly me..... I just described Obama's proposed healthcare reform...

 

Oh god, I must be a Nazi Marxist Socialist! I apparently want to kill the sick, elderly, and handicapped. I mean... I never mentioned those things... but I did agree with President Barack Obama....

 

 

<Mod Edit>

From one troll to another, I say beware.

The mods are fickle here.

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So what if the Nazi's had a health care system "much like" the one being put onto the plate.

The Nazi's ate bread too, does that make every bread eater like a Nazi?

Look, you need to go back to the education camps and talk to your supreme adviser, I don't know what is wrong with you but you don't seem stable. But that is just my opinion. At any rate I'm now reporting you to the Obama administration email.

Nazi like, pfft.

Its funny how much of the anti-healthcare group relies so heavily of these slippery slope argument that would get you laughed at in any scholarly debate.

You can find correlations between Hitler and damn near anything if you try hard enough. You might as well say you saw a guy with a tiny moustache... thats the moustache Hitler had, therefore he is hitler.

You saw a guy who doesn't like Jews... Hitler didn't like the jews, does that mean this man will lead America to a second holocaust.

Rome wasn't socialist and they fell.
Heck, if you want to play this game of drawing conclutions of unrelated patterns, rome fell and they had gladitorial combat. Now we have UFC; I'd keep an eye on all the tribes surrounding your empire if I were you.. "History repeats itself".

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Originally posted by Dewm

 

<Mod Edit>

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Originally posted by Astropuyo

 

Two days later I too was A Nazi Marxist Socialist (from the future) who wanted to kill the sick,elderly,handicapped, AND FIREMEN.

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Godwin's law

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Godwin's Law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with Hitler or Nazis or their actions.

The corollaries of the law would presumably not apply to discussions covering genocide, propaganda, or other mainstays of the Nazi Germany, or – more debatably – to discussion of other totalitarian regimes, since then a Nazi-comparison is inevitable. Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to interpretation, because although mentioning and trivializing Nazism in an online discussion, this would not be a fallacious attack against a debate opponent.

It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued,[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

 

 

 

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Originally posted by Munki

Its funny how much of the anti-healthcare group relies so heavily of these slippery slope argument that would get you laughed at in any scholarly debate.

You can find correlations between Hitler and damn near anything if you try hard enough. You might as well say you saw a guy with a tiny moustache... thats the moustache Hitler had, therefore he is hitler.

You saw a guy who doesn't like Jews... Hitler didn't like the jews, does that mean this man will lead America to a second holocaust.

Rome wasn't socialist and they fell.
Heck, if you want to play this game of drawing conclutions of unrelated patterns, rome fell and they had gladitorial combat. Now we have UFC; I'd keep an eye on all the tribes surrounding your empire if I were you.. "History repeats itself".

 

I can accept that. So i'll point out a few things that I would worry about...

single payer system, multiple times Obama himself has said that he wants a single payer system

Source:  http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-in-03-id-like-to-see-a-single-payer-health-care-plan/

Instead of giving real treatment to our elderly he wants to just "give them a pain pill"

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-dQfb8WQvo

And if this bill is so awsome why wont congress go on the same plan?

Source:   http://the-classic-liberal.com/congress-wont-accept-public-option-themselves/

And in the current verson in the senate right now (couldn't find a link right away) it says (near page 13) that you can stay on your current healthcare, UNTILL you make any changes to your plan. In other words if you added anyone, changed the rates, or anything you would automaticly be moved to the public option. And most insurance companys update and change peoples plans once a year. So within 5 years 99% of america would be on this plan... whether they liked it or not.

Sigh.  I didn't mean for this to turn into a mud ball fight.   While I am partisan I tried to make a reasonable post and following debate about healthcare.  I probably should have left off my last sentence or two.  But surely there are things both sides can agree on and get done?

Originally posted by Porfat

Sigh.  I didn't mean for this to turn into a mud ball fight.   While I am partisan I tried to make a reasonable post and following debate about healthcare.  I probably should have left off my last sentence or two.  But surely there are things both sides can agree on and get done?

I'm sorry man, I hijacked your thread with joking at the hardcores of this subject. I knew it was going to go combat mode, I'm sure my jibes aren't helping.

Originally posted by Porfat

Sigh.  I didn't mean for this to turn into a mud ball fight.   While I am partisan I tried to make a reasonable post and following debate about healthcare.  I probably should have left off my last sentence or two.  But surely there are things both sides can agree on and get done?

I think you guy just need to chill. You elected a president, and hes yours. It doesn't matter if you voted for the other guy, its still your country.
You should try to make the best of it, realize that you didn't vote for him, but more people disagree with you than agree with you. Wishing failure and slandering your own country is pretty damn pathetic.
You guys are tearing your country apart.

Originally posted by Munki

Originally posted by Porfat

Sigh.  I didn't mean for this to turn into a mud ball fight.   While I am partisan I tried to make a reasonable post and following debate about healthcare.  I probably should have left off my last sentence or two.  But surely there are things both sides can agree on and get done?

I think you guy just need to chill. You elected a president, and hes yours. It doesn't matter if you voted for the other guy, its still your country.
You should try to make the best of it, realize that you didn't vote for him, but more people disagree with you than agree with you. Wishing failure and slandering your own country is pretty damn pathetic.
You guys are tearing your country apart.

It really is like watching two siblings fight over a toy.

This is why I make fun of it. I'm an American, laughing at the sheer aggressiveness of Americans about a toy.

Originally posted by Munki

Originally posted by Porfat

Sigh.  I didn't mean for this to turn into a mud ball fight.   While I am partisan I tried to make a reasonable post and following debate about healthcare.  I probably should have left off my last sentence or two.  But surely there are things both sides can agree on and get done?

I think you guy just need to chill. You elected a president, and hes yours. It doesn't matter if you voted for the other guy, its still your country.
You should try to make the best of it, realize that you didn't vote for him, but more people disagree with you than agree with you. Wishing failure and slandering your own country is pretty damn pathetic.
You guys are tearing your country apart.

Wrong again....

32% Favor Single-Payer Health Care, 57% Oppose

Source: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/32_favor_single_payer_health_care_57_oppose

I agree with you that these things should absolutely be tackled, but I disagree that this would be worthy enough to call Health Care Reform alone. I don't consider it health care reform until the items I listed are handled in some fashion or another. Even setting aside a Single-Payer system or a Government Plan, for now, these few items need to be addressed. Who can argue with getting rid of "Pre-existing Conditions"exclusions, cheaper healthcare coverage whether you are currently employed or not, and being able to get life and death medical treatment covered when you are paying for the insurance?

We use our Government, keyword being "our", as a tool to provide education, police, firemen, military defense, and even transportation infrastructure. To me, it only makes sense to use it to help provide medical care as well. Hell, I'd rather have an institution that is known for overspending be responsible for my medical treatment coverage than a private corporation that only makes profit when they find loopholes to deny coverage to their customers.

Maybe you don't see it this way, but those in favor of a Government Option or Single-Payer Healthcare see it this way.

Now you seem to be coming at the debate from a financial viewpoint, which is certainly respectable. I'll be the first to admit that Obama stumbled big time on not having the budget and cost details worked out well in advance. However, I think that Obama is right in stating that true Health Care Reform would not only eventually cover itself after just short period, but would eventually turn a profit. The great thing about the Government turning a profit? They turn around and re-invest it back into healthcare. Eventually it becomes cheaper, our prices go down even further, and possibly there is money to spare to boost Research and Development. Sure this would take decades and decades of careful management to come to fruition, but isn't that when "our children" will be starting to rely more on medical coverage for prevention and such?

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Munki

Originally posted by Porfat

Sigh.  I didn't mean for this to turn into a mud ball fight.   While I am partisan I tried to make a reasonable post and following debate about healthcare.  I probably should have left off my last sentence or two.  But surely there are things both sides can agree on and get done?

I think you guy just need to chill. You elected a president, and hes yours. It doesn't matter if you voted for the other guy, its still your country.
You should try to make the best of it, realize that you didn't vote for him, but more people disagree with you than agree with you. Wishing failure and slandering your own country is pretty damn pathetic.
You guys are tearing your country apart.

 

Wrong again....

 

32% Favor Single-Payer Health Care, 57% Oppose

Source: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/32_favor_single_payer_health_care_57_oppose

Voters are fairly evenly divided in their views of those protesting the health care reform plans at congressional town hall meetings, but 49% believe they are genuinely expressing the views of their neighbors. Thirty-seven percent (37%) believe the protests are phony, encouraged by special interest groups and lobbyists

At this point I laughed out loud. My neighbor and generally my neighbors in the past have been dumbasses.

I'm a dumbass, I can recognize another when I see em.

There have not been a equal polling on this measure.

19% say they are displeased.

49% say they are.

The other % doesn't matter because they weren't asked.

Come back with some data that actually isn't "I think my neighbors think I'm right".

I think there are many reasons to oppose the current healthcare reform. But I think 1 is sufficient. When has the federal government ever formed a program that hasn't become bloated and ineffecient? I can't think of a single program.

Originally posted by Laserwolf

I agree with you that these things should absolutely be tackled, but I disagree that this would be worthy enough to call Health Care Reform alone. I don't consider it health care reform until the items I listed are handled in some fashion or another. Even setting aside a Single-Payer system or a Government Plan, for now, these few items need to be addressed. Who can argue with getting rid of "Pre-existing Conditions"exclusions, cheaper healthcare coverage whether you are currently employed or not, and being able to get life and death medical treatment covered when you are paying for the insurance?

We use our Government, keyword being "our", as a tool to provide education, police, firemen, military defense, and even transportation infrastructure. To me, it only makes sense to use it to help provide medical care as well. Hell, I'd rather have an institution that is known for overspending be responsible for my medical treatment coverage than a private corporation that only makes profit when they find loopholes to deny coverage to their customers.

Maybe you don't see it this way, but those in favor of a Government Option or Single-Payer Healthcare see it this way.

 

I can agree with that for the most part. I do agree that medicare and medicad need to be over hauled like nothing else.

But I think thats all that it should be. I don't want the government controlling a healthcare plan that can go to "all americans" reson: if that happens how can any other insurance company compete with free?

second: I dont' think that we can find a way to pay for a single payer system, just don't see it at this point.

And honestly I don't like the government in control of my life. I see it everywhere, and i'm no anarchist or anything, but at this point 34% of every doller I make goes to the government, they own my life practicly. can't build here can't build there. can't have a car that has such and such emisions, have to go to this school, can't carry a gun...and so on. its getting out of hand.

and back to the healthcare real quick. I don't see why we have to rush this so much. I mean Obama spent more time picking out his dog, then he wants to spend on the healthcare system..

(6months to find the dog btw)

Originally posted by Astropuyo

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Munki

Originally posted by Porfat

Sigh.  I didn't mean for this to turn into a mud ball fight.   While I am partisan I tried to make a reasonable post and following debate about healthcare.  I probably should have left off my last sentence or two.  But surely there are things both sides can agree on and get done?

I think you guy just need to chill. You elected a president, and hes yours. It doesn't matter if you voted for the other guy, its still your country.
You should try to make the best of it, realize that you didn't vote for him, but more people disagree with you than agree with you. Wishing failure and slandering your own country is pretty damn pathetic.
You guys are tearing your country apart.

 

Wrong again....

 

32% Favor Single-Payer Health Care, 57% Oppose

Source: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/32_favor_single_payer_health_care_57_oppose

 

Voters are fairly evenly divided in their views of those protesting the health care reform plans at congressional town hall meetings, but 49% believe they are genuinely expressing the views of their neighbors. Thirty-seven percent (37%) believe the protests are phony, encouraged by special interest groups and lobbyists

 

At this point I laughed out loud. My neighbor and generally my neighbors in the past have been dumbasses.

I'm a dumbass, I can recognize another when I see em.

There have not been a equal polling on this measure.

19% say they are displeased.

49% say they are.

The other % doesn't matter because they weren't asked.

 

Come back with some data that actually isn't "I think my neighbors think I'm right".

lol polls never have been and never will be representative.
Its a small sample of people.
Often times special interest groups will "truncate" the sample group to get the results they desire.

An election is 100% representative of the voting population. A poll is garbage.

Originally posted by Dewm

But I think thats all that it should be. I don't want the government controlling a healthcare plan that can go to "all americans" reson: if that happens how can any other insurance company compete with free?

second: I dont' think that we can find a way to pay for a single payer system, just don't see it at this point.

 

Maybe now isn't the time to start a Single-Payer system. After WW2, when most the other countries with it were getting it done was a great time for it(Guess who stopped us from creating one). However, a Government Option makes perfect sense to me. Is it a stepping stone to Single-Payer? Absolutely, which is why I want it asap.

As far as insurance companies being unable to compete with a Government Option, yes they will suffer major profit loss. Most likely some will fall, others might merge, and their CEOs won't be making the 100K+ an hour that they are pulling in right now. They will have to let go of Employees and a lot of people will lose their jobs. However, I honestly don't care. I say this right now having no immediate family in poor health and being in good health myself. Imagine how less I would care if I or a loved one were battling cancer or some other deadly illness/disease and facing unbelievable costs or refused coverage.

What is it about life insurance companies that makes them the cute little puppies of the Insurance world? How many Conservatives were shedding tears when it looked like AIG was going belly up? Actually, I remember a lot of "Let them Fall!", and plenty of "No Bailouts!".

Medical malpractice costs are less than 0.5% of the total cost of healthcare in this country.  That means 99.5% of the reason healthcare costs as much as it does has nothing to do with damage awards.

Medical malpractice insurance used to account for about 1% of the total cost of healthcare in the mid 80's, but has gone down to about 0.5% of the cost of healthcare.  So if it is causing a rise in the cost of healthcare, it's only by $1 for every $200 of treatment.

So it seems to me that limiting medical malpractice claims will do virtually nothing to fix the costs of healthcare.  In some ways, I'd imagine it could increase the costs, because reducing the incentive to get the diagnosis and the treatment right could lead to a greater increase of people seeking extra treatment for more complicated conditions.