Originally posted by luciusETRUR

First of all.. let's look most lore concepts for fiction, a lot of time they are "rip-offs" or copied material and changed enough to be "unique". Let's also dabble into the fact that Warhammer started out as a tabletop RPG and a as a poster said before had quality authors once upon a time.

Warcraft is far from this.. Warcraft was supposed to be a Warhammer RTS game, yet they weren't able to produce that license, but needed to do something with the game.. they made their own game with some pretty bad lore. This lore was so bad it's been retconned over and over, however lore in WoW -today- has become quite unique. I am not going to sit here and say I like WoW lore more than Warhammer, but I will say Warcraft's lore is not bad. You can say it's copied and you can say it's ripped off, but Warcraft didn't start out as a tabletop game, it didn't start out with books.. it started out as a rushed game, in terms of story, and one that is now video game content first, lore later.

 

Games like LoTRO, WAR and AoC, don't have to invent new lore or make new dungeons, because the content is there to be made, it's within pages and pages of novels and resources. Anyone arguing WoW is better lore-wise is out of their mind, and anyone arguing that Turbine, Mythic or Funcom is better than Blizzard is out of their mind. Blizzard dominates, plain and simple, and sure they copy/paste, but it isn't who makes it first, it's who does it better. Blizzard always does it better, the numbers back me up on this.

Blizzard dominates the game industry, not the book industry, and I think it will stay that way as long as Blizzard's vision doesn't change. However, quit thinking it will ever have better lore than the three MMOs I mentioned, it's just not realistic.. Chris Metzen might be a creative guy, but that's just a mountain too high to climb.

What dribble are u talking about??  The nonsense on this site juts get more and more bizzare everyday.  Warcraft was meant to be a Warhammer game, soryrylike I asked the other person that actualyl said that crap, show me anywhere with proof it was meant to be that, other than the variuos internet forums u have read them on.  Oh yes thats right u read it on another forum.  Do you even know anything about warcraft lore?  Warcraft started of as a rush game?  Let me tell you what started of  as a rushed game my friend, its WAR and AOC, EQ2, vanguard etc etc.

Originally posted by thexrated

Originally posted by Ahiles

Originally posted by Eben

Originally posted by Ahiles

Originally posted by thexrated

Well, it doesn't really matter who ripped off who. GameWorkshop have ripped off most ideas from elsewhere as well. Tyranids from Alien for example. However, 40k background story is pretty interesting and somewhat unique even if it borrows a lot from other titles. However, I think GW has done a poor job with their IP in general, par Dawn of War series and the new Bloodbowl game.  

You have to keep in mind that there are fans who think that Warcraft novels are literary masterpieces. Anyone who says that Lore in Warcraft is good has a very limited perspective, bad taste or simply are young. But then again, didn't Transformers 2 make nearly a billion dollars in the box office?

 

Well then that works reverse, because warhammer lore is even more shallow that warcrfats.  so peopel that like warcafts lore are young and have bad atste?  Do you even know anything about warcraft lore?  other than the fact it has orcs and humans?.

 

LOL...you do realize that there are 20 years worth of books, novels and gaming modules in the Warhammer IP, right?  I mean, obviously nothing to compare to the handful of books about Warcraft...which probably sit right next to the 'Twilight' novels in most bookstores.  Christ, Harry Potter has a better story than Warcraft. 

Oh, wait, no...Sauro...I mean...Arthas...that's some badass lore there.  Right...sure.

 

Where the hell do you think warhammer books sit next to?, next to Shakespeare?  Handful of warcraft books?  See this is what im talking about u know fuuck all about warcraft lore, yet u keep spouting crap like you know it, you can then bash it.  But you have absolutley no clue do you.

 

Actually early Warhammer books were written by proper authors. A good example is:

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/w/ian-watson/inquisition-war.htm

That was partly accidental as GameWorkshop did not really know much at the time about book business and was able to attract many good writers due to extravagant fees. The quality since then has been varied. Few good books, but many of them suffer from a lack of proper authors due to same reasons Warcraft novels do.

And yes, both Warhammer and Warhammer 40k have shitloads of novels and other lore from game books. It is extremely detailed and rich game world.

Much of Warcraft lore/setting is copied from Warhammer. And yes I think anyone claiming that Warcraft lore is great/rich does indeed suffer from the same thing as those who thought Transformer 2 was a great film.

Don't take me wrong. I have enjoyed Warcraft series and really loved Starcraft, but the lore/story is superficial at best. Just like listening to pop music. 

 

 

See its funny with wow haters like you that dont know crap yet spout crap for a living.

Warcraft has many great authros one being Richard A. Knaak.  The creator of the Dragonscale novels that span decades and have sold millions whos setting is used by  dungeons and dragons and hundreds of other settings.  So dont even start ur crap about authors.  This guy has pennedd stuff for Diablo and warcraft novels, and a setting that is used by non nother than Dungeons and dragons.

Warcraft is the weakest lore of any of the top 3, any non-fanboi knows it well or at least doesnt deny it.  Its been done before, again & again and the game's tendency to break  it make it less relevant. As said by Loke666 - my new favorite poster (even though I personally dont like LotR lore much, I don't try to minimize its quality by any means).

And thank you for the post to remind me of the better times...the days when Naxx for most was a dream raid for most and not an ez-mode raid for everyone and their mom to clear in a few hours :/.  Granted I hate to be eltist, but after MTing difficult crap to end up clearing all raid content in less than a month...was just depressing.

Ah well more games to look forward to in the future, including the blizzard titles, FFXIV, Old republic and others...better to look forward than back they say :)

Sidebar:  you all do know that warcraft was orginally spawned from games workshop wanting a game, but blizzard instead making it, its own...really you blame people for drawing parallels?

Originally posted by Ahiles 

See its funny with wow haters like you that dont know crap yet spout crap for a living.

Warcraft has many great authros one being Richard A. Knaak.  The creator of the Dragonscale novels that span decades and have sold millions whos setting is used by  dungeons and dragons and hundreds of other settings.  So dont even start ur crap about authors.  This guy has pennedd stuff for Diablo and warcraft novels, and a setting that is used by non nother than Dungeons and dragons.

Richard A. Knaak is a pretty typical franchise author who writes high fantasy. He is far from being labeled as a great author - only a rapid fanboi could make such a claim. I am not sure, if I read his Dragonlance books, but rest of that series is aimed, again, at fans and/or young readers. And I read most of the series 15-17 years go. It is not something I would ever recommend to someone albeit they were quite popular at the time.

I gave example of Ian Watson because he was already well-known and established science fiction author for over 20 years before he got paid really well to write few Warhammer 40k novels. It is almost impossible for these franchises to find quality authors like that these days because they pay so little. This includes Warhammer and D&D. You just ignored most what I said in previous post.

However, considering your view on what constitutes as quality writing, I see that it is pretty pointless to argue with you because quite frankly I am not sure if you even read books.

Yeah. Pre-BC was the best. 3.2 just fucked up everything imo. WoW is mad easy but there are too many noobs now and therefore many guilds are still on Yogg. So, Blizz, let's lower xp needed to lvl and lower mount lvl, again. Awesome, more noobs. Fail.

Originally posted by thexrated

Originally posted by Ahiles 

See its funny with wow haters like you that dont know crap yet spout crap for a living.

Warcraft has many great authros one being Richard A. Knaak.  The creator of the Dragonscale novels that span decades and have sold millions whos setting is used by  dungeons and dragons and hundreds of other settings.  So dont even start ur crap about authors.  This guy has pennedd stuff for Diablo and warcraft novels, and a setting that is used by non nother than Dungeons and dragons.

Richard A. Knaak is a pretty typical franchise author who writes high fantasy. He is far from being labeled as a great author - only a rapid fanboi could make such a claim. I am not sure, if I read his Dragonlance books, but rest of that series is aimed, again, at fans and/or young readers. And I read most of the series 15-17 years go. It is not something I would ever recommend to someone albeit they were quite popular at the time.

I gave example of Ian Watson because he was already well-known and established science fiction author for over 20 years before he got paid really well to write few Warhammer 40k novels. It is almost impossible for these franchises to find quality authors like that these days because they pay so little. This includes Warhammer and D&D. You just ignored most what I said in previous post.

However, considering your view on what constitutes as quality writing, I see that it is pretty pointless to argue with you because quite frankly I am not sure if you even read books.

Oh yes its the now, warcrafts authors are franchise authors and I read his work 15 year ago and they are aimed at young kids. And all other authors are supreme beings.  You keep talking about ian watson yet he has never written a warhammer novel besdies 40k which is different settings entriley so yet again u spout more crap.

Originally posted by Ahiles

Originally posted by thexrated

Originally posted by Ahiles 

See its funny with wow haters like you that dont know crap yet spout crap for a living.

Warcraft has many great authros one being Richard A. Knaak.  The creator of the Dragonscale novels that span decades and have sold millions whos setting is used by  dungeons and dragons and hundreds of other settings.  So dont even start ur crap about authors.  This guy has pennedd stuff for Diablo and warcraft novels, and a setting that is used by non nother than Dungeons and dragons.

Richard A. Knaak is a pretty typical franchise author who writes high fantasy. He is far from being labeled as a great author - only a rapid fanboi could make such a claim. I am not sure, if I read his Dragonlance books, but rest of that series is aimed, again, at fans and/or young readers. And I read most of the series 15-17 years go. It is not something I would ever recommend to someone albeit they were quite popular at the time.

I gave example of Ian Watson because he was already well-known and established science fiction author for over 20 years before he got paid really well to write few Warhammer 40k novels. It is almost impossible for these franchises to find quality authors like that these days because they pay so little. This includes Warhammer and D&D. You just ignored most what I said in previous post.

However, considering your view on what constitutes as quality writing, I see that it is pretty pointless to argue with you because quite frankly I am not sure if you even read books.

 

Oh yes its the now, warcrafts authors are franchise authors and I read his work 15 year ago and they are aimed at young kids. And all other authors are supreme beings.  You keep talking about ian watson yet he has never written a warhammer novel besdies 40k which is different settings entriley so yet again u spout more crap.

Don't like quoting myself, but in your case I make an exception:

"Actually early Warhammer books were written by proper authors. A good example is:

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/w/ian-watson/inquisition-war.htm"

I gave an example of author I actually know pretty well, having read his other works as well. 

From fantasy battle side you have authors like Kim Newman, who wrote Warhammer novels as "Jack Yeovil".

Oh, and this is the last straw man argument I will reply to.

Blizzard did not set out to create a WH game and were refused the license etc... or at least there's not 1 single bit of evidence to support this yet ppl keep blurting it out as truth.

Do you know how sucessful WC1 was? GW would of been fools to turn down a license.. so I cannot see how it was true.

Am not saying it didn't happen I''m saying nether side have talk about such a deal and there's nothing on the interwebs to support such a claim.. an no Wiki does not count.

As a side not I invented the Full Stop ".", there's no evidence for it but who needs evidence?

Originally posted by coffee

Blizzard did not set out to create a WH game and were refused the license etc... or at least there's not 1 single bit of evidence to support this yet ppl keep blurting it out as truth.

Do you know how sucessful WC1 was? GW would of been fools to turn down a license.. so I cannot see how it was true.

Am not saying it didn't happen I''m saying nether side have talk about such a deal and there's nothing on the interwebs to support such a claim.. an no Wiki does not count.

As a side not I invented the Full Stop ".", there's no evidence for it but who needs evidence?

Apparantley on this site, you can state anything as fact without any actual evidence to back your claims up, because u read it on the internet.  If there was even a hint of this so called deal then there would be atleats some news or something dating back to then, but there is absolutley nothing, and considering the Internet is filled with billions upon biliions of usless data, im sure something big like that has to be there right?  But then again reading it on a forum, and then getting it from another forum, and then another forum and another counts as fact on this site.

Hehe, keep em coming. Entertaining read...I love em fanbois/hater wars. So much drama

Originally posted by coffee

Blizzard did not set out to create a WH game and were refused the license etc... or at least there's not 1 single bit of evidence to support this yet ppl keep blurting it out as truth.

Do you know how sucessful WC1 was? GW would of been fools to turn down a license.. so I cannot see how it was true.

Am not saying it didn't happen I''m saying nether side have talk about such a deal and there's nothing on the interwebs to support such a claim.. an no Wiki does not count.

As a side not I invented the Full Stop ".", there's no evidence for it but who needs evidence?

Funny how many things in WC1 resembled stuff in Warhammer.

Whats next, coffee, you're going claim that Blizzard didn't copy Westwood's Dune 2?

Also at the time of release Command and Conquer sold better than WC1 and Red Alert better than WC2.

Originally posted by coffee

Blizzard did not set out to create a WH game and were refused the license etc... or at least there's not 1 single bit of evidence to support this yet ppl keep blurting it out as truth.

Do you know how sucessful WC1 was? GW would of been fools to turn down a license.. so I cannot see how it was true.

Am not saying it didn't happen I''m saying nether side have talk about such a deal and there's nothing on the interwebs to support such a claim.. an no Wiki does not count.

As a side not I invented the Full Stop ".", there's no evidence for it but who needs evidence?

I give up, since some crybaby went and whined to the mods here, and I'd probably have an easier time teaching a spider monkey to raid in WoW...I'll just leave you with this...ever heard of Penny Arcade?  Even they know Blizzard ripped off GW. 

Warhammer vs Warcraft been discussed to death. Fans of Warcraft claim Blizzard did it first and the Warhammer fans go frantic and foam around the mouth everytime some Warcraft fan go say it.

Mark Jacobs said in an interview, if you can trust his words and his sources, that Warcraft was supposed to be a Warhammer rts but the deal fell through for some reason. Can't seem to find the link to that interview though

Warhammer been an ip for over 25 years now while Warcraft been an ip for 15 years, so yeah. The answer is right there if people want to see it. The both copy Tolkiens work though as he copied myths and legends for his work.

Noone got the real facts though so Mark Jacobs is the best source so far on the real history of what went on back then. Blizzard devs are as usual tight-lipped about that whole issue, which in a way tell it's own story about what really happened.

Edit:To answer Coffee's question below here, Mark was asked specifically to clarify the rumors about that particular issue. He was in contact with GW, he was in the business and have been making games for over 25 years. Yes, I think he know alot more about that really happened than some random person on a gaming forum. Who said Warhammer failed btw? Warhammer still alive last I checked allthough not to the success they predicted.

Originally posted by chunky_slice

Originally posted by coffee

Blizzard did not set out to create a WH game and were refused the license etc... or at least there's not 1 single bit of evidence to support this yet ppl keep blurting it out as truth.

Do you know how sucessful WC1 was? GW would of been fools to turn down a license.. so I cannot see how it was true.

Am not saying it didn't happen I''m saying nether side have talk about such a deal and there's nothing on the interwebs to support such a claim.. an no Wiki does not count.

As a side not I invented the Full Stop ".", there's no evidence for it but who needs evidence?

 

Funny how many things in WC1 resembled stuff in Warhammer.

Whats next, coffee, you're going claim that Blizzard didn't copy Westwood's Dune 2?

Also at the time of release Command and Conquer sold better than WC1 and Red Alert better than WC2.

pretty much every one agrees Dune2 was the start of the rts genre (but not the firrst) so dont go there.  I am not talking about who started a genre I am simply asking for evidence that WC was ment to be WH.. thats all.. if you cannot do that then why claim  it as truth?

A wiki post and a "i think i heared in an interview" does not cut it.

Also to another post, why would Mark jacobs have any insight on wether WC was ment to be WH? He was too busy creating a fail mmo.

I am not saying its not true but all I ask for is proof.. untill then shhhh.... your spreading rumors.. nothing more.

BTW any one dissproved I invented the full stop yet? no? ok then it must be true.

I cannot find any figures for Red Alert

Sales figures for WC2 total over 4million http://www.blizzard.com/us/war2bne/

But what do sales figures have to do with anything?

Originally posted by Ahiles

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

First of all.. let's look most lore concepts for fiction, a lot of time they are "rip-offs" or copied material and changed enough to be "unique". Let's also dabble into the fact that Warhammer started out as a tabletop RPG and a as a poster said before had quality authors once upon a time.

Warcraft is far from this.. Warcraft was supposed to be a Warhammer RTS game, yet they weren't able to produce that license, but needed to do something with the game.. they made their own game with some pretty bad lore. This lore was so bad it's been retconned over and over, however lore in WoW -today- has become quite unique. I am not going to sit here and say I like WoW lore more than Warhammer, but I will say Warcraft's lore is not bad. You can say it's copied and you can say it's ripped off, but Warcraft didn't start out as a tabletop game, it didn't start out with books.. it started out as a rushed game, in terms of story, and one that is now video game content first, lore later.

 

Games like LoTRO, WAR and AoC, don't have to invent new lore or make new dungeons, because the content is there to be made, it's within pages and pages of novels and resources. Anyone arguing WoW is better lore-wise is out of their mind, and anyone arguing that Turbine, Mythic or Funcom is better than Blizzard is out of their mind. Blizzard dominates, plain and simple, and sure they copy/paste, but it isn't who makes it first, it's who does it better. Blizzard always does it better, the numbers back me up on this.

Blizzard dominates the game industry, not the book industry, and I think it will stay that way as long as Blizzard's vision doesn't change. However, quit thinking it will ever have better lore than the three MMOs I mentioned, it's just not realistic.. Chris Metzen might be a creative guy, but that's just a mountain too high to climb.

 

What dribble are u talking about??  The nonsense on this site juts get more and more bizzare everyday.  Warcraft was meant to be a Warhammer game, soryrylike I asked the other person that actualyl said that crap, show me anywhere with proof it was meant to be that, other than the variuos internet forums u have read them on.  Oh yes thats right u read it on another forum.  Do you even know anything about warcraft lore?  Warcraft started of as a rush game?  Let me tell you what started of  as a rushed game my friend, its WAR and AOC, EQ2, vanguard etc etc.

Actually, yeah Warcraft did. Back then, Blizzard was not a huge company, back then they made random games that didn't do very well. Have you played Warcraft: Orcs and Humans? If it wasn't rushed why have they constantly changed the lore OVER AND OVER? Warcraft III has been retconned more times than I care to remember.
 

There is no point in proving if Blizzard was denied rights to the Warhammer IP.. however if you look at the fantasy setting of Warcraft AND StarCraft, there are far too many similarities to not see a connection. Is Blizzard copying? Why not? They copy and paste all the time.

I am a supporter of Blizzard and the Warcraft universe, but you don't need to get so far into thinking that Blizzard didn't try to make a Warhammer game, because chances are they did. Chances are that the setting is so familiar it's like saying Dungeons and Dragons didn't copy and paste ideas from Tolkein, or that Western culture is influenced by Romans.

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by Palebane 

Back then, you weren't forced to grind. Not nearly as much as in today's game. I don't remember grinding anything until BC came out, be honest. Heroic dungeons? As if running them on normal mode 5 times isn't enough, now you get to run the exact same dungeon again, only this time the mobs have more HPs and better resistances. Fun fun fun
 

No grind? Seriously? Did you honestly just say that with a straight face? The original WOW grind was 1000 times worse than now.. At least now its only 5-10 people together and not 40. Running MC was painful for any guild that wasn't the most hardcore raid guild.

And you took but one example of a current grind.... but how can it be a grind...the game is too easy now that even an ADHD kiddie can do it? That is what doesn't make sense about this whole argument - the game is easier but its more of a grind. If it is easy it isn't a grind.

To me, a grind is a mind-numbing, repetitive activity that you hate. You can have grinding activities that you like to do. That is the big difference between a grind and not a grind, the person's attitude towards the activity.

All original WOW was a grind. Do 5 mans until you can get decent gear to do 15 mans (later 10 mans). Do those until you get the gear or the mats required for resistance gear. Do MC until you get better gear. Try Onxyia. Repeat MC until you are sick of the place.

That to me was a grind. And honestly, outside some dailies and some early faction grinding, I haven't done anything in WOW that I would consider a grind since the early days.

Another idiot who never played WoW pre-bc.

And what has changed in WotLK? You do heroics to grind out emblems. You grind Naxx. YOu grind dailies. You have to grind 2 factions for head and shoulder enchants. Try getting into a good guild without head or shoulder enchants.

Grind bg's just for the chance of being able to compete in PvP. A few decent blues and a few epics and you were set in pre-BC. Now forget about doing any PvP without 800+ resilience unless you want to get steam rolled.

And what retard did 5 mans to get complete dungeon set 1 before heading into UBRS (evne though 2-3 pieces of dungeon set 1 was from UBRS)? For the majority of classic WoW existence you hit lvl 60 and walked into Mc and Onyxia (assuming you did the attunement and got key'ed).

If you wasted all your time running scholo 50 times to get your headpiece from gandling thats your fault. Not the game's fault.

I'd rather run Molten Bore than lvl 80 Snoozeramas. At least Rag was an awesome final boss.

Looking back guilds spent way too much time in MC instead of spending it better ways like making sure everyone in the guild is exalted with ZG or running AQ20 for tokens for guaranteed loot. Problem was that most guilds either had the GL or raid leader as a warrior who would drag the guild into MC for a shot at bindings or eye of sulfuras.

Again, thats the problem of the playerbase, not the game.

And I actually found guilds to be a lot more stable back in pre-BC. The fact that guilds were bigger made them more stable since all the whiny snot nosed punks were too lazy/useless to setup their own guilds. Back in pre-BC a guild hopper got a reputation and would be black listed. When /gquit'ing has no consequence and you can guild hop between dozens of guilds on a realm people you're going to lose players. When gear is handed out like candy you're going to get less stability in guilds.

Since organising a large guild took more effort only those who were able to do it did it. Unlike now where any idiot can setup a "raiding" guild and get other people to carry him/her through content.

Your problem is you're confusing between being bad at the game (you) and the game being bad (which it was not).

A poor tradesman blames always his tools or a someone trashing golf because he/she is bad at it.

Originally posted by Ahiles

Originally posted by Palebane 

Back then, you weren't forced to grind. Not nearly as much as in today's game. I don't remember grinding anything until BC came out, be honest. Heroic dungeons? As if running them on normal mode 5 times isn't enough, now you get to run the exact same dungeon again, only this time the mobs have more HPs and better resistances. Fun fun fun
 

 

Back then u wernt forced to grind?  you what?  Serious have u just taken a memeroy blocking pill to forget the seriuos grind back then?

Raid factions back then were serious grind, meaning hours upon hours of mind numbing grind in raids and out of raids.  Timbermaw hold was serious grind, TBH was serious grind, Dark iron dwarves were serious grind, hell mats just to get a crafter  to make the resist gearwere serious grind.  They were not in no way shape or form fun.  Unless fun for you is sitting 15 hours in front of the computer, killing the same thing over and over again and not doing anythign else.  Do people forget the tediuos LBRS runs?the boring UBRS runs?  the boring scholo and strat runs?  The boring DM west runs? 

 

Sorry unless you never did any of these grinds or actually made it past lvl 2 then you have seriuosly have no clue what u are talking about. 

Again, the WoW worshippers HAVE NOT GIVEN ME ONE EXAMPLE OF BEING FORCED TO GRIND.
Firstly scholomance, stratholme, BRD, and Blackrock Spire (bother lower and upper), dire maul all were a 1000x better 5 man instances than the hallway, boss, hallway boss 5 mans of BC and WotLK.

Secondly no one forced you to run those instances a thousand times. I only ran Dire Maul West 3-4 times during pre-BC, once to get my dreadsteed. I did DM north tribute runs because they were awesome fun. Give me one example of a WotLK 5 man being more fun than a tribute run (do you even know what that is?).

Again, if you CHOSE to grind these instances than that was your CHOICE.

Actually, you could get better blues than the dungeon set 1 doing these instances. Again, if you were obessive compulsive about completing your set that was your CHOICE.

As for getting resist gear. I always enjoyed doing guild 5 mans and relaxing on vent and having fun. Farming for resists added to the social atmosphere of WoW. If no one wanted to group with you to farm resist sets then maybe that says more about you than the game?

Originally posted by coffee

Originally posted by chunky_slice

Originally posted by coffee

Blizzard did not set out to create a WH game and were refused the license etc... or at least there's not 1 single bit of evidence to support this yet ppl keep blurting it out as truth.

Do you know how sucessful WC1 was? GW would of been fools to turn down a license.. so I cannot see how it was true.

Am not saying it didn't happen I''m saying nether side have talk about such a deal and there's nothing on the interwebs to support such a claim.. an no Wiki does not count.

As a side not I invented the Full Stop ".", there's no evidence for it but who needs evidence?

 

Funny how many things in WC1 resembled stuff in Warhammer.

Whats next, coffee, you're going claim that Blizzard didn't copy Westwood's Dune 2?

Also at the time of release Command and Conquer sold better than WC1 and Red Alert better than WC2.

 

pretty much every one agrees Dune2 was the start of the rts genre (but not the firrst) so dont go there.  I am not talking about who started a genre I am simply asking for evidence that WC was ment to be WH.. thats all.. if you cannot do that then why claim  it as truth?

A wiki post and a "i think i heared in an interview" does not cut it.

Also to another post, why would Mark jacobs have any insight on wether WC was ment to be WH? He was too busy creating a fail mmo.

I am not saying its not true but all I ask for is proof.. untill then shhhh.... your spreading rumors.. nothing more.

BTW any one dissproved I invented the full stop yet? no? ok then it must be true.

I cannot find any figures for Red Alert

Sales figures for WC2 total over 4million http://www.blizzard.com/us/war2bne/

But what do sales figures have to do with anything?

 

STOP making stuff up, coffee. You're worse than Zorndorf and his X-Fire figures.

The sales figure of 4 million copies is FOR ALL OF THE WARCRAFT RTS SERIES.

""The Warcraft Series has sold over four million copies worldwide"

Maybe try reading the webpages before linking them, eh, coffee? What part of the word "series" dont you understand?

But while Microsoft, err sorry, Blizzard are still trying to milk the warcraft 2 game Red Alert has been released as freeware.

Interesting article it did bring back lot's of memories from when I started wow the first time :)

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by slask777

Warhammer vs Warcraft been discussed to death. Fans of Warcraft claim Blizzard did it first and the Warhammer fans go frantic and foam around the mouth everytime some Warcraft fan go say it.

Mark Jacobs said in an interview, if you can trust his words and his sources, that Warcraft was supposed to be a Warhammer rts but the deal fell through for some reason. Can't seem to find the link to that interview though

Warhammer been an ip for over 25 years now while Warcraft been an ip for 15 years, so yeah. The answer is right there if people want to see it. The both copy Tolkiens work though as he copied myths and legends for his work.

Noone got the real facts though so Mark Jacobs is the best source so far on the real history of what went on back then. Blizzard devs are as usual tight-lipped about that whole issue, which in a way tell it's own story about what really happened.

 

Edit:To answer Coffee's question below here, Mark was asked specifically to clarify the rumors about that particular issue. He was in contact with GW, he was in the business and have been making games for over 25 years. Yes, I think he know alot more about that really happened than some random person on a gaming forum. Who said Warhammer failed btw? Warhammer still alive last I checked allthough not to the success they predicted.

 

See you have a problem.

In 1975-1978, I played Fantasy Role playing combat game named : CHAINMAIL

Chainmail is a medieval miniatures wargame created by Jeff Perren and Gary Gygax. Gygax developed the game with fellow Lake Geneva Tactical Studies Association member Perren, a hobby-shop owner that he had become friendly with, and the set of rules for medieval miniatures combat was published in 1971.[1] The 1971 edition includes a fantasy supplement and is one of the oldest sets of rules for fantasy miniature wargaming,[2] containing spells and monsters that would reappear in Dungeons and Dragons.

That was 12 years !!!! before Warhammer Fantasy was even made !!!! I still remember Swords and Sorcery board game also. Beautiful games full with Orcs, Mages, Trolls, .....

See how fluked this discussion is?

Now WHO was the first in putting Fantasy RPG and combat games on the board.

I guess good ol' Gary . Sorry but age DO give advantages sometimes when youngsters discuss of things they know nothing about ....

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainmail_(game) (as always with Zorndorf - reference is included).

And viewing the age of such fellows like Mike Morhaim etc... I think they pretty much looked at the designs of Gary Gygax and his legendary D&D Lore and games.

Edit: and BTW Mark JAcobs would say ANYTHING to make look War interesting in his pre launch period (and even after).

How sad this beautiful Lore became raped by one of the least liked men on this planet.

lol..I don't have a problem. The question was if Warhammer ripped off Warcraft or the opposite, Noone mentioned Gygax or his D&D and other pnp games he made. Most people into rpg's know Gygax (RIP) is the granddaddy of rpg's, Thats not the question and also beside the point.

About Mark Jacobs, I did wrote 'if you can trust his words and his sources' didn't I? Regardless, as he was in contact with GW and worked with them and since Blizzard devs remain tight-lipped about the whole thing, he is the best source we have so far, biased as it may be.

Anyway 'ripped' is a strong word to use. I prefer inspired The lore is their own now anyway. So much been added since Orc's and Humans.