Originally posted by Ra9narok

One of the best things i encountered in FFXI was deffinetly how the groups were well organized and i loved the system where you didn't leave the party just like that saying: "It's lunch time, need to go!" and "Off we go" but everyone was kind enough to tell the others when he needs to go so that the party could find a replacment for the one who leaves. I never met such kind of group cooperation in any other MMORPGs i played (and believe me i tried almost any interesting P2P and F2P MMORPG out there).

I loved it when people would tell you they were leaving the group...

and then tell you that that would wait for replacement...

and then tell you they had already organised the replacement who was arriving soon.

In my experience there is no community like this.

Originally posted by Miner-2049er

Originally posted by Ra9narok

One of the best things i encountered in FFXI was deffinetly how the groups were well organized and i loved the system where you didn't leave the party just like that saying: "It's lunch time, need to go!" and "Off we go" but everyone was kind enough to tell the others when he needs to go so that the party could find a replacment for the one who leaves. I never met such kind of group cooperation in any other MMORPGs i played (and believe me i tried almost any interesting P2P and F2P MMORPG out there).

 

I loved it when people would tell you they were leaving the group...

and then tell you that that would wait for replacement...

and then tell you they had already organised the replacement who was arriving soon.

In my experience there is no community like this.

Yep...

It could almost be used as a sort of social experiment... how people behave when placed in a given "closed" environment where their actions have a direct effect on them among others around them.

For example...
Be cool and polite to others, a good reputation precedes you and you'll have a much easier time finding groups, being reinvited to future parties, etc.
Be a discourteous idiot, a bad reputation precedes you and you find yourself being rejected from parties, etc.

In a MMO like FFXI where cooperation with others is so crucial, being an ass is the best way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Here's an anecdotal example:
(I don't remember the guys name unfortunately; this was years ago)

I was leveling in Shakhrami Maze (back before Windy folk started going to the Dunes) in a party. We had a Taru BLM who was, to put it mildly, extremely difficult to deal with. He was barking orders at everyone, running off on his own and yelling at us for not following/protecting him... just a real miserable guy. I was the party leader at the time, so I sent him a /tell asking him to please cool down a bit and cooperate, that things would go more smoothly. He openly, in party chat, cursed me out and then dropped party. 

Okay.... no problem, the bad apple had removed themself and there were plenty of other people seeking at the time. We found another mage and continued on.

Little while later, while we're fighting a worm or something, we see the BLM run past us and laugh... he was running toward the exit to Tahrongi. A few moments later, a goblin comes up and stops - it had been chasing him. Since this was before mobs de-spawned when they lost aggro, it turned and started attacking us. Luckily the mob we were already working on was nearly dead already, and we were able to take out the goblin. He came back to see the "fruits of his labor"... when he saw we weren't dying, he ran off... This time I said "okay... he might be trying it again.. so don't attack anything". Sure enough... he comes back with another goblin... We take it out.

The BLM stands around and waits, obviously waiting for us to fight something so we wouldn't be prepared for an add. After a while I say "let's just attack something, if it looks bad, we can zone. We're not far away. So we attack something we know we can take out fairly easily and that won't chase us if we have to run... a worm. Sure enough, he immediately runs into the room and grabs a goblin... and trains it back at us. Same thing.. we beat the worm then beat the Goblin. 

I send the BLM a /tell "Thanks for helping with the mobs. Appreciate it!" He goes "I'm bringing a Wight back next time!". He never did, though... and that was that. We disbanded soon after.

Well... some time later, I'm in another party with people I've never met or partied with before - out in "Yotater Jungle" (as my friend calls it) - and we're looking for a nuker to set up Magic Bursts (back when parties actively SC'd/MB'd on a regular basis - ah, those were the days... anyway...). Someone says "There's a BLM lfg in Jeuno...". One of us asks "What's the name?". The person searching gives the name - it was the BLM from the Maze. All but the leader immediately goes "NO!" or some variation on that. The leader says "lol... wow... I guess that settles that". We go on to share our experiences with the BLM. The leader, just based on our accounts, blists him. 

Some weeks later, someone asked "whatever happened to [the BLM]..." Turns out he'd cancelled his account and stopped playing... Why? Because no one would invite him to parties or involve him in events. Why? Because he was an ass to everyone and word got around.

He eventually came back and tried to "make amends" with people, changing his attitude, etc... It *kinda* worked, but many still wanted nothing to do with him.

That's just one example of several I could give.

In FFXI's community, you were/are not "anonymous". Your actions/attitude do have consequences and word does get around. Though these days, with more soloing options, it's a bit easier to "blend into the woodwork".. but not completely.

This is an aspect I *really* hope is carried over to FFXIV in some way. I really liked that about FFXI.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Miner-2049er

Originally posted by Ra9narok

One of the best things i encountered in FFXI was deffinetly how the groups were well organized and i loved the system where you didn't leave the party just like that saying: "It's lunch time, need to go!" and "Off we go" but everyone was kind enough to tell the others when he needs to go so that the party could find a replacment for the one who leaves. I never met such kind of group cooperation in any other MMORPGs i played (and believe me i tried almost any interesting P2P and F2P MMORPG out there).

 

I loved it when people would tell you they were leaving the group...

and then tell you that that would wait for replacement...

and then tell you they had already organised the replacement who was arriving soon.

In my experience there is no community like this.

Yep...

It could almost be used as a sort of social experiment... how people behave when placed in a given "closed" environment where their actions have a direct effect on them among others around them.

For example...
Be cool and polite to others, a good reputation precedes you and you'll have a much easier time finding groups, being reinvited to future parties, etc.
Be a discourteous idiot, a bad reputation precedes you and you find yourself being rejected from parties, etc.
In a MMO like FFXI where cooperation with others is so crucial, being an ass is the best way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Here's an anecdotal example:
(I don't remember the guys name unfortunately; this was years ago)

I was leveling in Shakhrami Maze (back before Windy folk started going to the Dunes) in a party. We had a Taru BLM who was, to put it mildly, extremely difficult to deal with. He was barking orders at everyone, running off on his own and yelling at us for not following/protecting him... just a real miserable guy. I was the party leader at the time, so I sent him a /tell asking him to please cool down a bit and cooperate, that things would go more smoothly. He openly, in party chat, cursed me out and then dropped party. 

Okay.... no problem, the bad apple had removed themself and there were plenty of other people seeking at the time. We found another mage and continued on.

Little while later, while we're fighting a worm or something, we see the BLM run past us and laugh... he was running toward the exit to Tahrongi. A few moments later, a goblin comes up and stops - it had been chasing him. Since this was before mobs de-spawned when they lost aggro, it turned and started attacking us. Luckily the mob we were already working on was nearly dead already, and we were able to take out the goblin. He came back to see the "fruits of his labor"... when he saw we weren't dying, he ran off... This time I said "okay... he might be trying it again.. so don't attack anything". Sure enough... he comes back with another goblin... We take it out.

The BLM stands around and waits, obviously waiting for us to fight something so we wouldn't be prepared for an add. After a while I say "let's just attack something, if it looks bad, we can zone. We're not far away. So we attack something we know we can take out fairly easily and that won't chase us if we have to run... a worm. Sure enough, he immediately runs into the room and grabs a goblin... and trains it back at us. Same thing.. we beat the worm then beat the Goblin. 

I send the BLM a /tell "Thanks for helping with the mobs. Appreciate it!" He goes "I'm bringing a Wight back next time!". He never did, though... and that was that. We disbanded soon after.

Well... some time later, I'm in another party with people I've never met or partied with before - out in "Yotater Jungle" (as my friend calls it) - and we're looking for a nuker to set up Magic Bursts (back when parties actively SC'd/MB'd on a regular basis - ah, those were the days... anyway...). Someone says "There's a BLM lfg in Jeuno...". One of us asks "What's the name?". The person searching gives the name - it was the BLM from the Maze. All but the leader immediately goes "NO!" or some variation on that. The leader says "lol... wow... I guess that settles that". We go on to share our experiences with the BLM. The leader, just based on our accounts, blists him. 

Some weeks later, someone asked "whatever happened to [the BLM]..." Turns out he'd cancelled his account and stopped playing... Why? Because no one would invite him to parties or involve him in events. Why? Because he was an ass to everyone and word got around.

He eventually came back and tried to "make amends" with people, changing his attitude, etc... It *kinda* worked, but many still wanted nothing to do with him.

That's just one example of several I could give.

In FFXI's community, you were/are not "anonymous". Your actions/attitude do have consequences and word does get around. Though these days, with more soloing options, it's a bit easier to "blend into the woodwork".. but not completely.

This is an aspect I *really* hope is carried over to FFXIV in some way. I really liked that about FFXI.

 

^^^^

THIS

The more the devs sacrifice partying in exchange for soloing, the more idiots we will see playing. Sad, but you can't have the cake and eat it too. 

Expect the community to be worse than in FFXI by miles, but we can still be hopeful that grouping wil have more emphasis than in WoW etc. and the community would be at least better than in that game.

Originally posted by Dragonheart7

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Miner-2049er

Originally posted by Ra9narok

One of the best things i encountered in FFXI was deffinetly how the groups were well organized and i loved the system where you didn't leave the party just like that saying: "It's lunch time, need to go!" and "Off we go" but everyone was kind enough to tell the others when he needs to go so that the party could find a replacment for the one who leaves. I never met such kind of group cooperation in any other MMORPGs i played (and believe me i tried almost any interesting P2P and F2P MMORPG out there).

 

I loved it when people would tell you they were leaving the group...

and then tell you that that would wait for replacement...

and then tell you they had already organised the replacement who was arriving soon.

In my experience there is no community like this.

 

In FFXI's community, you were/are not "anonymous". Your actions/attitude do have consequences and word does get around. Though these days, with more soloing options, it's a bit easier to "blend into the woodwork".. but not completely.

This is an aspect I *really* hope is carried over to FFXIV in some way. I really liked that about FFXI.

 

^^^^

THIS

Hopefully SE "hears us" eh? :)

I should give a positive version of that scenario, I think, to balance it out...

Without going into as long as story about it...
There's many times I've been in groups where we'll be looking for someone to tank or heal, etc... While we're searching, someone will say "There's a PLD looking"... We ask the name and when it's given, people will say "Yes!! Invite them! I've partied with them before and they are awesome". 

There's one person in particular I used to recommend all the time.. a Taru who was one of the top 3 Paladins, easily, that I'd ever grouped with. We called him "TaruTank (tm)" for fun. Several times when I'd recommend him, someone else in the group would say "I've heard about him, he's supposed to be a really great player". Very skilled/knowledgable player, and a great personality to boot.

Same goes for personality... you could mention someone in conversation and another person would say "Oh, I know them. They're a great guy." or "So-and-so rocks!"

So it definitely goes both ways.

Cheesey as it might sound, there are a few on Pandemonium that rose to the level of "mini-celebrity", so to speak... Seems everyone knew and liked them.

I've seen few other MMOs where the same could be said of people standing out in the community that much. Lineage 2 has a similar community; some people are well-known by reputation alone, for better or worse.

If I could pick one thing that i could bring over from ffxi to ffxiv. It would be what WSImike has been talking about.

The community. Of course the community is a direct result of grouping.

Everybody who has played ffxi for a long period has all kind of stories like WSImike has.

I miss those days of SC/MB!! Even bards could participate!!

WSIMIke - you are so dead on. That is what FFXI so awesome. The community was close-knit.. Well you can say there were sub-communities contained within the main just due to the sheer fact the servers were world-wide. It was great when those sub-communities crossed and cooperated (this was not always the case of course - stuff happens like in any other mmorpg).

The idea that you had oppurtunities to ask high levels to assist you in level cap quests, AF quests, etc. I did like that as well.

And you are right, this type of model FFXI fashioned itself around did weed out the monkies, for the most part.  At least the type of monkies Mike described. There were other monkies such as those who thought they were Vana'diels gift to mankind.. That's for another time of course.

I welcome the idea of having some soloability for folks like me - I am married, I have a 3 year old (when she's up and about I afk SO MUCH! LOL) and I work full time. I do not want the soloability that allows me to get max level in a short amount of time - no way. To me that cheapens the game and it doesn't cause me to respect my character whatsoever. But just enough for those times that I do afk a great deal that I can at least get stuff done. When I need a group then I proceed accordingly.  I do not want to see so much soloability that it kills the close-knit community mentality.

Originally posted by Apricoth

I miss those days of SC/MB!! Even bards could participate!!

 

WSIMIke - you are so dead on. That is what FFXI so awesome. The community was close-knit.. Well you can say there were sub-communities contained within the main just due to the sheer fact the servers were world-wide. It was great when those sub-communities crossed and cooperated (this was not always the case of course - stuff happens like in any other mmorpg).

The idea that you had oppurtunities to ask high levels to assist you in level cap quests, AF quests, etc. I did like that as well.

And you are right, this type of model FFXI fashioned itself around did weed out the monkies, for the most part.  At least the type of monkies Mike described. There were other monkies such as those who thought they were Vana'diels gift to mankind.. That's for another time of course.

I welcome the idea of having some soloability for folks like me - I am married, I have a 3 year old (when she's up and about I afk SO MUCH! LOL) and I work full time. I do not want the soloability that allows me to get max level in a short amount of time - no way. To me that cheapens the game and it doesn't cause me to respect my character whatsoever. But just enough for those times that I do afk a great deal that I can at least get stuff done. When I need a group then I proceed accordingly.  I do want to see so much soloability that it kills the close-knit community mentality.

I'm pretty sure you meant "don't want to see" in that blue bit :-p.

And I agree... FFXI wasn't/isn't without its boneheads... good thing is, they tend to stick to their own group.

And about the SC/MB.. Yeah, used to be really fun working those out and then nailing them perfectly... There was the odd time that the mage would have an "oops" moment and cast a -ga spell accidentally, ticking off a nearby mandy or something and probably causing a mess. But that was part of the fun. Those frantic races to the Yuhtunga zone line were great lol.

 haha Yes you were right.  My mind races ahead of my fingers at times. I got it corrected. Thanks!

I felt the same way about the community in EverQuest a long time ago.  Here's hoping FFXIV will have a great community as well.

Originally posted by RamenThief7 

NiteWolf: Well of course FF XIV shouldn't be 100% like FF XI. There were problems with the game after all. What I mean is that FF XIV has to be game where a FF XI player would play FF XIV and say "this is fun and seems like an improved and polished version of FF XI with new game mechanics to boot." It doesn't to be exactly like FF XI, but it should provide a fun experience for those that enjoyed FF XI and for people who are new to it (and enjoy similar aspects).

To everyone in general: WSI Mike does sort of hit the hammer on this point. There should parts where it is possible to solo, but it wouldn't be as advantegous as doing it in a group. For example, the blacksmith role. By yourself, you could craft a sword (I'm just making this example up since I have no idea how this will work). But, if you had a friend or two helping you out, you could craft that sword much quicker (and in turn you help your friends out or give them equal shares of the profit if you decide to sell the sword). This makes soloing a wee bit easier and more convenient, but group play is in the end more of the stronger aspect.

 

well that is the question, isn't it? does SE want to create a game that most FF XI players would want to play? by doing that they'll cut themselves off a big portion of a solid subscription base since with the time-commitment needed for the games it would be highly unlikely ppl would be playing both. And they don't have to worry too much about ppl getting so disappointed in or annoyed about XIV to not play XI anymore since, as was mentioned multiple times over multiple threads, there's no game of that type out there.

about balancing the solo/group thing, it sure is a tricky matter as WSI mentioned. however forced grouping is never ever a good idea if you want to get the casual player in your game (which is a declared goal of SE). A very simple solution was used in Guild Wars, namely henchmen. you always need a group since soloing is mostly impossible, but if you can't find enough ppl or don't feel like searching, you can get npcs who travel with you. you won't manage the most difficult areas with them, but you get far enough in the story if you want. And you still have to do learn how to properly interact with your group. a system like that would be one option to have both solo and group play and a necessity to know what you're doing.

Originally posted by TheNitewolf

Originally posted by RamenThief7 

NiteWolf: Well of course FF XIV shouldn't be 100% like FF XI. There were problems with the game after all. What I mean is that FF XIV has to be game where a FF XI player would play FF XIV and say "this is fun and seems like an improved and polished version of FF XI with new game mechanics to boot." It doesn't to be exactly like FF XI, but it should provide a fun experience for those that enjoyed FF XI and for people who are new to it (and enjoy similar aspects).

To everyone in general: WSI Mike does sort of hit the hammer on this point. There should parts where it is possible to solo, but it wouldn't be as advantegous as doing it in a group. For example, the blacksmith role. By yourself, you could craft a sword (I'm just making this example up since I have no idea how this will work). But, if you had a friend or two helping you out, you could craft that sword much quicker (and in turn you help your friends out or give them equal shares of the profit if you decide to sell the sword). This makes soloing a wee bit easier and more convenient, but group play is in the end more of the stronger aspect.

 

 

well that is the question, isn't it? does SE want to create a game that most FF XI players would want to play? by doing that they'll cut themselves off a big portion of a solid subscription base since with the time-commitment needed for the games it would be highly unlikely ppl would be playing both. And they don't have to worry too much about ppl getting so disappointed in or annoyed about XIV to not play XI anymore since, as was mentioned multiple times over multiple threads, there's no game of that type out there.

about balancing the solo/group thing, it sure is a tricky matter as WSI mentioned. however forced grouping is never ever a good idea if you want to get the casual player in your game (which is a declared goal of SE). A very simple solution was used in Guild Wars, namely henchmen. you always need a group since soloing is mostly impossible, but if you can't find enough ppl or don't feel like searching, you can get npcs who travel with you. you won't manage the most difficult areas with them, but you get far enough in the story if you want. And you still have to do learn how to properly interact with your group. a system like that would be one option to have both solo and group play and a necessity to know what you're doing.

Sorry for the large quote.  But I felt it was relevant.

My personal belief is that after watching how successful Blizzard Entertainment has been with World of Warcraft, Square Enix cannot close their eyes at the fact that if you make your game much more available for players of all types, it will bring in more revenue and create a larger playerbase.  So, I absolutely think that SE will focus on a much wider playerbase this time around.

I very much doubt that they will try to cater to the small FFXI audience, since then they wont reach out to too many players outside of Japan.  Fact.

Forced grouping is something I've enjoyed a lot in EverQuest and Lineage 2, but back then I had no full-time job.  I spent a lot of my time in the games and enjoyed it a great deal.  Nowadays though, things has changed.  The MMO scene has changed.  And SE won't be there and present us with something ancient, they too want to be up-to-par with this era of MMO's.  So we will see a more casual-focused game, in WoW you still group quite a bit, but it's different then the grind in FFXI and L2 for instance. :)

 This is definitly a wait and see situation. Speculation is fun at times but can also be harmful to ones health. I should know because I have a fraking head cold!!

Originally posted by RamenThief7

Originally posted by Vrazule

Any game that offers a place to congregate and chat will generate a community.  Forced cooperation on the other hand is a big turn off for a lot of people.  If they want this game to do better in the west than it's predecessor did, they're going to have to really take that to heart.  Otherwise, they'll just end up cannibalizing their current player base and will never increase their market share.

 

Not so fast Vrazule. You're forgetting something, FF XI was a hardcore group game. The players of that fanbase grew up on forced cooperation, yet 500k subscriptions for 8 straight years shows that the concept can sell.

FF XIV would be wise to stay group-oriented and only offer solo play as a little better, but ultimately you're looking for a party during those times.

Wow does not have forced group cooperation and it has 10m subscriptions. I think SE wants to change what they are doing.

Originally posted by Lieoney

Originally posted by RamenThief7

Originally posted by Vrazule

Any game that offers a place to congregate and chat will generate a community.  Forced cooperation on the other hand is a big turn off for a lot of people.  If they want this game to do better in the west than it's predecessor did, they're going to have to really take that to heart.  Otherwise, they'll just end up cannibalizing their current player base and will never increase their market share.

 

Not so fast Vrazule. You're forgetting something, FF XI was a hardcore group game. The players of that fanbase grew up on forced cooperation, yet 500k subscriptions for 8 straight years shows that the concept can sell.

FF XIV would be wise to stay group-oriented and only offer solo play as a little better, but ultimately you're looking for a party during those times.

 

Wow does not have forced group cooperation and it has 10m subscriptions. I think SE wants to change what they are doing.

Oh dear, I really don't want to go over this all over again.

WOW is an abomination of nature. There is no way that anyone can repeat what WOW did. Forced group cooperation lead to an excellent community. SE has stated they will make the game more casual, though exactly how much more casual is the question.

Please, read this whole thread again. A couple of people here have illustrated well on my point here.

Originally posted by Sixpax

The problem with the whole "appeal to a new crowd" logic is this: a lot of the people who didn't get involved with FFXI aren't the least bit interested in FFXIV.  All they see is "another Asian grinder", even though that may not even be the case.  So the crowd that SE might be trying to reach by making it different from FFXI could very well not even bother trying it and the effort is wasted.  Meanwhile, the people who loved FFXI could very well try out FFXIV and get turned off because they are expecting the same type game.  So it's possible they wind up appealing to neither crowd.  That happened with EQ2 (the people that didn't like EQ had no interest in it, and people who did like EQ were turned off by it), and Warhammer as well.

I'm not saying that will definitely happen to FFXIV, but it is something to consider.

Lieoney, I suggest you take this post into mind. Sixpax proves an excellent point here.

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by Sillver

Originally posted by RamenThief7

Originally posted by Vrazule

Any game that offers a place to congregate and chat will generate a community.  Forced cooperation on the other hand is a big turn off for a lot of people.  If they want this game to do better in the west than it's predecessor did, they're going to have to really take that to heart.  Otherwise, they'll just end up cannibalizing their current player base and will never increase their market share.

 

Not so fast Vrazule. You're forgetting something, FF XI was a hardcore group game. The players of that fanbase grew up on forced cooperation, yet 500k subscriptions for 8 straight years shows that the concept can sell.

FF XIV would be wise to stay group-oriented and only offer solo play as a little better, but ultimately you're looking for a party during those times.

 

Really? How wise would it be to spend $$ to put out a new game with the same forced group concept as a game that doesn't break 500k in subs?  A little better solo makes the difference and brings all the subs???      LOL...

 

How wise would it be to step out on a limb and take a risk by making it to solo friendly, aleinating your main fanbase when you know you have a formula that is a success and will give you 500k subs over the next 5-8 years? Thats one hell of a profit.

Personally I would want to take the guranteed route. You keep your fans happy and maybe can get some new ones who never got into ffxi due to when it came out. Maybe push that number to 600k. Another reason to stick with your fans is the majority of solo'ers will hop on the next games bandwagon and leave ffxiv. while you have done and pissed of your fans and they either left ffxiv or a few went back to ffxi. That leaves FFXIV in a BAD spot. The solo crowd is a hard crowd to keep playing one game for years. . Only WoW has managed to keep the solo'ers/casual, maybe LOTRO, idk i have not followed that game.   

Lieoney, this is another post to consider.

 I believe WoW community's is suspect. The overall environment in that game is of hostility and e-peen mentality. Sure, there are a few good people in the game but not enough to lend a sense of a community that actually exhibit empathy. WoW is the antithesis of empathy. My opinion, of course.

Ramen,  I like how passionate you are about things.  However, I'm sure even you realize that there won't be close to as much forced grouping in FFXIV as it was in FFXI, since SE would want to keep both games running at the same time and cater to different playerbases. Then again, I'm not SE, so we'll just have to wait and see :D

Originally posted by Zyuu83

Ramen,  I like how passionate you are about things.  However, I'm sure even you realize that there won't be close to as much forced grouping in FFXIV as it was in FFXI, since SE would want to keep both games running at the same time and cater to different playerbases. Then again, I'm not SE, so we'll just have to wait and see :D

Heh heh, I always considered myself thorough, but passionate does have a nice ring to it.

Of course I do not expect FF XIV to be 100% hardcore group play-based. SE has announced it will be more casual than FF XI. However, by reading previous posts that I posted for lieoney to read, one could agree that if FF XIV doesn't retain a good amount of hardcore group aspects, then SE is walking a very dangerous and risky business line. I'm just very afraid that SE will create an overly casual and "solo the whole thing" game which would still not appeal to casuals (many friends of mine that are casuals have stated that they see FF XIV as nothing more than another "asian grinder" like Sixpax put it) but would be so different and non-hardcore group aspected that the original FF XI crowd will reject it. I like SE, I don't like them failing, but SE has a chance of repeating EQ2 all over again.

Of course, we'll just have to wait a few days more if I remember correctly to finally get some more info about FF XIV (Gamescon anyone?). :D