People from early 2000s mmos probably remember when a person could log on at any time of the day and find a group. Today, that rarely happens, and oddly enough, people are MORE selective about who receives an invite. Some people will state that it is simply more "efficient" to solo than to group with a non "elite" person. To which I reply, "when did having fun become about efficiency?" On the very first day I played a mmo I was grouped for a good period of time, and it didn't get much more newbie than I was. I am tempted to conclude that gamers of the early generation of mmos were more patient, and perhaps that is true considering that they didn't have any other option(other than solo if that was a viable choice). I am not immune to the drive toward efficiency, but I am curious why I am incapable of finding a better niche anymore. The one where I don't feel rushed by all the other efficient solo'ers, and intentionally slowed down by game provider employees(worried I might arrive at end-game and stop subscribing). If the game I play wants me to arrive at end-game slower then they had better give me sufficient mechanisms to qualify myself against the "elitest" solo'ers(tradeskill system or dynamic lore).

Well alot of it depends on which game we are talking about.

FFXI I never had a problem finding groups and people where always cheery and fun. none of that elitest stuff.....

on the other hand with WoW, if you don't have the exact gear, or the exact level, or have the right macros and so on.... you can't get into alot of the groups.

But I honestly think its the way the game was designed more then the community. Where the whole point of the game was to "level really fast and win!"

And since WoW is the big boy on the block I kinda think it set the president. so we have this HUGE number of new MMO players... who think thats how you act. and its starting to bleed into other MMO's.

So for all of those people "which game is gunna kill WoW" I hope nothing does... let them keep there sub base. *yeck* I wouldn't want them ruining another game..

Originally posted by Dewm

 

Well alot of it depends on which game we are talking about.

Exactly. handing in a CV for consideration and review before a raid is a common practice in WOW, but I haven't really experienced it in EQ2, EVE, AC, LOTRO or... well... any other MMO I play.

For early MMOs, a lot of players came from a very similar background. They were mostly geeks, and many had played other computer or tabletop games before.

For a modern game like WoW, the audience is much more diverse.  People come from all different walks of life, are different ages, and have wildly differing attitudes. That means if you throw together a random group of 5 people, then there's a good chance there will be disagreements about something or other, and bad experiences.

For example, in an early MMO, if you grouped with someone who didn't understand aggro, you could probably just pause for a minute and explain the concept. They would listen to what you had to say, and adjust their play style. Nowadays, in wow, if you pause a random group and try to explain a concept that's quite simple to veteran's, you are as likely to be met with abuse as with a receptive audience.

Originally posted by Dewm

 

Well alot of it depends on which game we are talking about.

FFXI I never had a problem finding groups and people where always cheery and fun. none of that elitest stuff.....

 

on the other hand with WoW, if you don't have the exact gear, or the exact level, or have the right macros and so on.... you can't get into alot of the groups.

But I honestly think its the way the game was designed more then the community. Where the whole point of the game was to "level really fast and win!"

 

And since WoW is the big boy on the block I kinda think it set the president. so we have this HUGE number of new MMO players... who think thats how you act. and its starting to bleed into other MMO's.

So for all of those people "which game is gunna kill WoW" I hope nothing does... let them keep there sub base. *yeck* I wouldn't want them ruining another game..

Wasn't FFXI the game where peopel could spend hours looking for a group because they did not meet the required 'qualifications'?

All very good, and logical, posts. Food for thought, thank you.

About the same time MMOs became all about the gear...

When?

When cavemen first noticed they had penises.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Dewm

 

Well alot of it depends on which game we are talking about.

FFXI I never had a problem finding groups and people where always cheery and fun. none of that elitest stuff.....

 

on the other hand with WoW, if you don't have the exact gear, or the exact level, or have the right macros and so on.... you can't get into alot of the groups.

But I honestly think its the way the game was designed more then the community. Where the whole point of the game was to "level really fast and win!"

 

And since WoW is the big boy on the block I kinda think it set the president. so we have this HUGE number of new MMO players... who think thats how you act. and its starting to bleed into other MMO's.

So for all of those people "which game is gunna kill WoW" I hope nothing does... let them keep there sub base. *yeck* I wouldn't want them ruining another game..

Wasn't FFXI the game where peopel could spend hours looking for a group because they did not meet the required 'qualifications'?

well if by "qualifications" you mean they are looking for a white mage for healing and the dude was a puppetmaster then yes. Now as for the "hours" looking for a group.. I dunno

I play'd it for 2 years starting when it came out. and I dont' remember that long of wait times....no more then 20-40 minutes.. which wasn't a big deal.

I think it has always been about being elite in MMO's. If you think back to EQ, the entire game was built around elitism. I remember when I was trying to find a guild (I came to EQ late), it was impossible. Some guilds not only required a certain level, but certain keys, specific items and gear, etc....

As a matter of fact, my friends were in a guild that was very elite and I couldn't join at all. Thank God we were real life friends so we could at least talk about the game.

Elitism has always been around since one caveman found a rock that was bigger and shinier than another's rock. Or found the cave that was bigger.

Everyday we deal with elitism......best job, best car, best house, smartest child in school. Some games, like the Sims 3 drive us to try and be as elite as possible. Community is gone, elitism is here.

Sorry for the soapbox but I think it has gotten worse since the market has grown and developed. Some players talk about having the best gear, others about how long they have played MMO's, others about how good they are at PVP, etc.....

Recent things, like the WOW armory only makes it worse because your character is all public now. It only adds to the elitist feel of MMO's as they are today.

Originally posted by Marcus-

About the same time MMOs became all about the gear...

you find elitism in GW too

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Dewm

 

Well alot of it depends on which game we are talking about.

FFXI I never had a problem finding groups and people where always cheery and fun. none of that elitest stuff.....

 

on the other hand with WoW, if you don't have the exact gear, or the exact level, or have the right macros and so on.... you can't get into alot of the groups.

But I honestly think its the way the game was designed more then the community. Where the whole point of the game was to "level really fast and win!"

 

And since WoW is the big boy on the block I kinda think it set the president. so we have this HUGE number of new MMO players... who think thats how you act. and its starting to bleed into other MMO's.

So for all of those people "which game is gunna kill WoW" I hope nothing does... let them keep there sub base. *yeck* I wouldn't want them ruining another game..

Wasn't FFXI the game where peopel could spend hours looking for a group because they did not meet the required 'qualifications'?

No, it was just mostly the class. And you could switch you class. A friend of mine liked playing as the white mage role, and he never had problems finding a group.

I never saw any elitists around in the FF XI community. Basically, if you acted like an ass, you would soon figure out why people are refusing to party with you.

I love how many generalizations are present in the first two posts of this thread.  I've never had trouble finding a group in World of Warcraft.  There are so many easy ways to gear up your character for most content without raiding.  Most people are turned away from the raids I attend for being undergeared for that very same reason.  If you can't spend a little bit of time getting what gear you have access to, you obviously care very little for that character, and ultimately for the outcome of our encounter.

The fact that someone said you needed specific macros and gear.  Honestly, some content in WoW requires a certain level of experience and ability in order to have a chance at defeating the boss.  If you have a problem getting a macro to work (most macros people try to enforce in raids are for targeting, which are really simple), then you might not be suited for a raid.  There are plenty of other ways to get gear in that game.

That being said, I think games are doing the opposite of what the OP has suggested.  Games like EverQuest and Ultima Online in their prime were much more elitist than the MMORPG market of today.  When I played EverQuest years ago it was much more difficult to find groups, kill raid bosses, and get gear.  Even the tradeskill items offered in the game required grouping, which made those even more difficult to obtain.

Today, World of Warcraft and other current MMORPGs offer a certain amount of gear and accomplishment to come to a player without having to submit to the whims of the "hardcore."  Every patch, in WoW at least, brings more and more content to the casual crowd.  This is something I personally agree with.  I think people, probably more like the OP, benefit from these patches.  Now they can reach that gear level for raiding, and in the mean time have things to do that don't require obscene gear or experience.

To say that games are more elitist now, in my opinion, comes from players who weren't around when games were far less forgiving and players equally so.

Originally posted by Antipathy

...

For example, in an early MMO, if you grouped with someone who didn't understand aggro, you could probably just pause for a minute and explain the concept. They would listen to what you had to say, and adjust their play style. Nowadays, in wow, if you pause a random group and try to explain a concept that's quite simple to veteran's, you are as likely to be met with abuse as with a receptive audience.

THAT!

after playing wow when i listen about grouping i get some vietnam flashbacks >.<

not likely when i played L2 and people used to be sure everybody was there for the 24h respwn boss (before bots and campers ofc)

but playing RoM i saw there something o tought was dead in comunites, so dont give up =D

I still belive a harsh envoirement ( a game with more consequences) is needed to carve a better comunity.

Originally posted by Kenaoshi

Originally posted by Antipathy

...

For example, in an early MMO, if you grouped with someone who didn't understand aggro, you could probably just pause for a minute and explain the concept. They would listen to what you had to say, and adjust their play style. Nowadays, in wow, if you pause a random group and try to explain a concept that's quite simple to veteran's, you are as likely to be met with abuse as with a receptive audience.

 

THAT!

after playing wow when i listen about grouping i get some vietnam flashbacks >.<

not likely when i played L2 and people used to be sure everybody was there for the 24h respwn boss (before bots and campers ofc)

but playing RoM i saw there something o tought was dead in comunites, so dont give up =D

I still belive a harsh envoirement ( a game with more consequences) is needed to carve a better comunity.

Loved the underlined part. This is especially evident inside hardcore group games like FF XI. Harsh death penalties made you want to cooperate with others in a group (which set up powerful skill chains). A game with few penalties of any sort does not encourage this.

Originally posted by retrospectic

I love how many generalizations are present in the first two posts of this thread.  I've never had trouble finding a group in World of Warcraft.  There are so many easy ways to gear up your character for most content without raiding.  Most people are turned away from the raids I attend for being undergeared for that very same reason.  If you can't spend a little bit of time getting what gear you have access to, you obviously care very little for that character, and ultimately for the outcome of our encounter.

The fact that someone said you needed specific macros and gear.  Honestly, some content in WoW requires a certain level of experience and ability in order to have a chance at defeating the boss.  If you have a problem getting a macro to work (most macros people try to enforce in raids are for targeting, which are really simple), then you might not be suited for a raid.  There are plenty of other ways to get gear in that game.

 

That being said, I think games are doing the opposite of what the OP has suggested.  Games like EverQuest and Ultima Online in their prime were much more elitist than the MMORPG market of today.  When I played EverQuest years ago it was much more difficult to find groups, kill raid bosses, and get gear.  Even the tradeskill items offered in the game required grouping, which made those even more difficult to obtain.

Today, World of Warcraft and other current MMORPGs offer a certain amount of gear and accomplishment to come to a player without having to submit to the whims of the "hardcore."  Every patch, in WoW at least, brings more and more content to the casual crowd.  This is something I personally agree with.  I think people, probably more like the OP, benefit from these patches.  Now they can reach that gear level for raiding, and in the mean time have things to do that don't require obscene gear or experience.

To say that games are more elitist now, in my opinion, comes from players who weren't around when games were far less forgiving and players equally so.

I don't know what server on WoW you were playing, but where I was the prerequisites for raids were ALWAYS beyond solo questable gear(aka greens with a few blues thrown in 70 and beyond).
 

Originally posted by retrospectic

I love how many generalizations are present in the first two posts of this thread.  I've never had trouble finding a group in World of Warcraft.  There are so many easy ways to gear up your character for most content without raiding.  Most people are turned away from the raids I attend for being undergeared for that very same reason.  If you can't spend a little bit of time getting what gear you have access to, you obviously care very little for that character, and ultimately for the outcome of our encounter.

The fact that someone said you needed specific macros and gear.  Honestly, some content in WoW requires a certain level of experience and ability in order to have a chance at defeating the boss.  If you have a problem getting a macro to work (most macros people try to enforce in raids are for targeting, which are really simple), then you might not be suited for a raid.  There are plenty of other ways to get gear in that game.

 

That being said, I think games are doing the opposite of what the OP has suggested.  Games like EverQuest and Ultima Online in their prime were much more elitist than the MMORPG market of today.  When I played EverQuest years ago it was much more difficult to find groups, kill raid bosses, and get gear.  Even the tradeskill items offered in the game required grouping, which made those even more difficult to obtain.

Today, World of Warcraft and other current MMORPGs offer a certain amount of gear and accomplishment to come to a player without having to submit to the whims of the "hardcore."  Every patch, in WoW at least, brings more and more content to the casual crowd.  This is something I personally agree with.  I think people, probably more like the OP, benefit from these patches.  Now they can reach that gear level for raiding, and in the mean time have things to do that don't require obscene gear or experience.

To say that games are more elitist now, in my opinion, comes from players who weren't around when games were far less forgiving and players equally so.

I didn't find UO to be elitist, nor did I find the original Nevewinter Nights ('95).. I was around back then... People grouped more on how they played the game, rather than how fast they could progress, or help you progress...

UO for example.. RPers would typically congregate, as did the PKs, and anti-PKs... You weren't  "shunned" because you didn't have the proper gear, or weren't harcore enough.

I guess you could say the same about today, but if you spec the wrong way (min/max) you won't be accepted into some guilds, if you cant raid 5 days a week, between 7-1am, you will be turned away.. amongst many other things..

There was none of that back in the UO days, at least not what i saw...

Originally posted by retrospectic

I love how many generalizations are present in the first two posts of this thread.  I've never had trouble finding a group in World of Warcraft.  There are so many easy ways to gear up your character for most content without raiding.  Most people are turned away from the raids I attend for being undergeared for that very same reason.  If you can't spend a little bit of time getting what gear you have access to, you obviously care very little for that character, and ultimately for the outcome of our encounter.

The fact that someone said you needed specific macros and gear.  Honestly, some content in WoW requires a certain level of experience and ability in order to have a chance at defeating the boss.  If you have a problem getting a macro to work (most macros people try to enforce in raids are for targeting, which are really simple), then you might not be suited for a raid.  There are plenty of other ways to get gear in that game.

 

That being said, I think games are doing the opposite of what the OP has suggested.  Games like EverQuest and Ultima Online in their prime were much more elitist than the MMORPG market of today.  When I played EverQuest years ago it was much more difficult to find groups, kill raid bosses, and get gear.  Even the tradeskill items offered in the game required grouping, which made those even more difficult to obtain.

Today, World of Warcraft and other current MMORPGs offer a certain amount of gear and accomplishment to come to a player without having to submit to the whims of the "hardcore."  Every patch, in WoW at least, brings more and more content to the casual crowd.  This is something I personally agree with.  I think people, probably more like the OP, benefit from these patches.  Now they can reach that gear level for raiding, and in the mean time have things to do that don't require obscene gear or experience.

To say that games are more elitist now, in my opinion, comes from players who weren't around when games were far less forgiving and players equally so.

Not trying to pick a fight or anything but just pointed out that you re-afirm what I was talking about with WoW.
 

See in FFXI you needed certain requirments to down a boss also....just like in WoW. So "whats the diffrence?" you ask.

FFXI isn't about raiding and gear. example: in FFXI 90% of the game is grinding to the highest level. Now when you are griding you can get into any group even if...

you don't have the exact correct gear.

you don't have all of your stuff macro'd

you can only play for the next half hour.

even if you are a lower/higher level you can join. 

and so on. my point is that WoW (which is the big dude on the street for MMO's) has made it that 70% of the game (the endgame) is only accessable if you have such and such items. or get such and such addons, or macro's.

which creats more elitism..

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Dewm

 

Well alot of it depends on which game we are talking about.

FFXI I never had a problem finding groups and people where always cheery and fun. none of that elitest stuff.....

 

on the other hand with WoW, if you don't have the exact gear, or the exact level, or have the right macros and so on.... you can't get into alot of the groups.

But I honestly think its the way the game was designed more then the community. Where the whole point of the game was to "level really fast and win!"

 

And since WoW is the big boy on the block I kinda think it set the president. so we have this HUGE number of new MMO players... who think thats how you act. and its starting to bleed into other MMO's.

So for all of those people "which game is gunna kill WoW" I hope nothing does... let them keep there sub base. *yeck* I wouldn't want them ruining another game..

Wasn't FFXI the game where peopel could spend hours looking for a group because they did not meet the required 'qualifications'?

The community on the server I used to play on (Siren) was very nice BUT they were the same as all the games if not moreso when choosing group members.  You HAD to have certain spells as a red mage many of these back in the day cost more money than you would have accumulated in total at that lvl, you HAD to have certain sub classes or you would sit all day and night waiting.  Yeah FFXI might have a nice community on the whole but to me it was one of the first games to really have that elitist mentality on group selection.  This was mainly due to the steep penalties for failure and not so much in the we are better than you so you can't join us mentality.  The reasons were different but it did exist, don't kid yourself.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by retrospectic

I love how many generalizations are present in the first two posts of this thread.  I've never had trouble finding a group in World of Warcraft.  There are so many easy ways to gear up your character for most content without raiding.  Most people are turned away from the raids I attend for being undergeared for that very same reason.  If you can't spend a little bit of time getting what gear you have access to, you obviously care very little for that character, and ultimately for the outcome of our encounter.

The fact that someone said you needed specific macros and gear.  Honestly, some content in WoW requires a certain level of experience and ability in order to have a chance at defeating the boss.  If you have a problem getting a macro to work (most macros people try to enforce in raids are for targeting, which are really simple), then you might not be suited for a raid.  There are plenty of other ways to get gear in that game.

 

That being said, I think games are doing the opposite of what the OP has suggested.  Games like EverQuest and Ultima Online in their prime were much more elitist than the MMORPG market of today.  When I played EverQuest years ago it was much more difficult to find groups, kill raid bosses, and get gear.  Even the tradeskill items offered in the game required grouping, which made those even more difficult to obtain.

Today, World of Warcraft and other current MMORPGs offer a certain amount of gear and accomplishment to come to a player without having to submit to the whims of the "hardcore."  Every patch, in WoW at least, brings more and more content to the casual crowd.  This is something I personally agree with.  I think people, probably more like the OP, benefit from these patches.  Now they can reach that gear level for raiding, and in the mean time have things to do that don't require obscene gear or experience.

To say that games are more elitist now, in my opinion, comes from players who weren't around when games were far less forgiving and players equally so.

Not trying to pick a fight or anything but just pointed out that you re-afirm what I was talking about with WoW.
 

See in FFXI you needed certain requirments to down a boss also....just like in WoW. So "whats the diffrence?" you ask.

 

FFXI isn't about raiding and gear. example: in FFXI 90% of the game is grinding to the highest level. Now when you are griding you can get into any group even if...

you don't have the exact correct gear.

you don't have all of your stuff macro'd

you can only play for the next half hour.

even if you are a lower/higher level you can join. 

 

and so on. my point is that WoW (which is the big dude on the street for MMO's) has made it that 70% of the game (the endgame) is only accessable if you have such and such items. or get such and such addons, or macro's.

which creats more elitism..

Underlined Part: FF XI, in my opinion, is one of those few games where the pve grinding was fun and awesome. Also, grinding is a huge aspect, but it's not the only one. The story, fun quests that were meaningful, the group-oriented play, the nice and helpful community that asshats couldn't thrive in, etc.