As you level and the mobs get harder, tank and spank gradually drills everything down to needing the most min-maxed tanking, healing and DPSing - hitting it's final crescendo with raid bosses.

However, even if the game system is tank and spank there could potentially be many different templates which were equal in one of those three categories. That would help a bit but not if your choice of template wasn't one of the maxed ones.

So to me the problem isn't really min-maxers (as that can't be changed) but that min-maxing works in the game system.

Looking back to my old tabetop days with my brothers when a party entered a room full of orcs the orcs didn't all attack the fighter. We always did it so 1 or 2 would attack the character in front and the others would fan out a bit and attack the characters just behind. In general you had melee types acting as blockers while the non-melee types did stuff from the rear. If the paradigm somehow shifted to something like this then I think that would might make min-maxing character templates less important.

Originally posted by ArchAngel102

One of the biggest complaints among CoX nerds was the fact they couldn't number crunch their powers to exploit as much as they could to be a Munchkin.

...

I'm sick and tired of levels, but as Darkfall would soon show me, skill based games have the exact same problems as level games. Grind grind grind. Rush to "end game." It's all about number crunching, mathematics, and exploiting every ability to form cookie-cutter templates that everyone can copy so they can "own" those unfortunate enough to choose a gimped skill for the sake of FUN or to be UNIQUE. Try to be something "cool" like a scrawny midget warrior, or a braindless barbarian wizard, and you end up being gimped.

Passed up on grouping again because I am not an Ogre Warrior and chose Elf instead? Blacklisted from guilds because I thought it would be cool to multi-class? While everyone else stands infront of the capital city shouting, "LFG! Pick me! I'm just like everybody else, but better than those losers who think they're "unique"!"

Oh god, it's highschool all over again, and I wanted to be an individual!

I just got finished typing one of the longest posts I've ever made to the internet and probably one of the longest posts ever posted on this forum, so I have no energy left and do not wish to be caught up in the flame war that will no doubt ensue as a result of your post.

But I did want to comment on these specifc parts of your post. I have two things to say:

First...

LOL

And secondly...

I agree, this is a problem which I would like to see solved.

That is all.

Originally posted by tupodawg999

As you level and the mobs get harder, tank and spank gradually drills everything down to needing the most min-maxed tanking, healing and DPSing - hitting it's final crescendo with raid bosses.

However, even if the game system is tank and spank there could potentially be many different templates which were equal in one of those three categories. That would help a bit but not if your choice of template wasn't one of the maxed ones.

So to me the problem isn't really min-maxers (as that can't be changed) but that min-maxing works in the game system.

Looking back to my old tabetop days with my brothers when a party entered a room full of orcs the orcs didn't all attack the fighter. We always did it so 1 or 2 would attack the character in front and the others would fan out a bit and attack the characters just behind. In general you had melee types acting as blockers while the non-melee types did stuff from the rear. If the paradigm somehow shifted to something like this then I think that would might make min-maxing character templates less important.

I think a Modern, Cyberpunk, or Sci-Fi game would solve the horrid barrier of Tank Healer DPS that MMORPG's today won't get away from.

Because when it becomes more like a modern PnP game, there's less or no healing, EVERYONE can damage someone (it's called a gun!) and there's more to life than just combat (Charisma Skills, Robots, Hacking, Information, Stealth (not rogue assassins, but sneaking by without killing anyone))

Then, once the cookie-cutter fantasy template is destroyed (Tank Healer DPS) fantasy games with *magic* can return, but in a new, and better, format.

I blame D&D. No offense to anyone who likes it, but IMO it's to blame for the Tank Healer DPS module, and although it's superior to MMORPG's twisted mutation of the mechanics- it's still a little close to it.

Too bad they couldn't have copied off of a better system, like Shadowrun, L5R, Middle Earth RPG (classic, lol, You fumble and pull your groin. You're out for 3 rounds, your opponent is out for 2 rounds laughing.)

But oh well. D&D isn't as annoying as all the ignorant morons who think that MMORPG technology is so limited that making anything more than a simple game would be "IMPOSSIBLE" -_-

Yea, maybe impossible for morons like them, but certainly not impossible to anyone with any talent in programming.

Hiding the formulas doesn't make them cease to exist. In a combat oriented game, a parse is always possible even if it comes down to quantity of time to kill mob x. However, I sympathize with some of what you are saying. I sometimes wonder if general chat is the killer of all excitement; why not group with whoever happens to cross paths. Unfortunately, if general chat wasn't built into the game system people would use instant messengers to work around it. I think the best implementation for bypassing the lack of groups is to provide enough benefit for grouping with someone immediately rather than taking the time to set up a group with someone who has a potentially "better" build. In the meantime, you might want to try a game that has a fast grind such as Guildwars.

Originally posted by ArchAngel102

Originally posted by tupodawg999

As you level and the mobs get harder, tank and spank gradually drills everything down to needing the most min-maxed tanking, healing and DPSing - hitting it's final crescendo with raid bosses.

However, even if the game system is tank and spank there could potentially be many different templates which were equal in one of those three categories. That would help a bit but not if your choice of template wasn't one of the maxed ones.

So to me the problem isn't really min-maxers (as that can't be changed) but that min-maxing works in the game system.

Looking back to my old tabetop days with my brothers when a party entered a room full of orcs the orcs didn't all attack the fighter. We always did it so 1 or 2 would attack the character in front and the others would fan out a bit and attack the characters just behind. In general you had melee types acting as blockers while the non-melee types did stuff from the rear. If the paradigm somehow shifted to something like this then I think that would might make min-maxing character templates less important.

 

I think a Modern, Cyberpunk, or Sci-Fi game would solve the horrid barrier of Tank Healer DPS that MMORPG's today won't get away from.

Because when it becomes more like a modern PnP game, there's less or no healing, EVERYONE can damage someone (it's called a gun!) and there's more to life than just combat (Charisma Skills, Robots, Hacking, Information, Stealth (not rogue assassins, but sneaking by without killing anyone))

Then, once the cookie-cutter fantasy template is destroyed (Tank Healer DPS) fantasy games with *magic* can return, but in a new, and better, format.

 

I blame D&D. No offense to anyone who likes it, but IMO it's to blame for the Tank Healer DPS module, and although it's superior to MMORPG's twisted mutation of the mechanics- it's still a little close to it.

Too bad they couldn't have copied off of a better system, like Shadowrun, L5R, Middle Earth RPG (classic, lol, You fumble and pull your groin. You're out for 3 rounds, your opponent is out for 2 rounds laughing.)

 

But oh well. D&D isn't as annoying as all the ignorant morons who think that MMORPG technology is so limited that making anything more than a simple game would be "IMPOSSIBLE" -_-

Yea, maybe impossible for morons like them, but certainly not impossible to anyone with any talent in programming.

imo most other systems just boil down to creating tank-heal-DPS hybrids which, though better in some ways, restricts a lot of group tactical options - unless as you mention classes are specifically given tactical specials.

I think the key problem is the mob AI. If you've ever tried to write some mob AI you quickly find out how elegantly simple the aggro mechanic is as it puts all the complexity on the player side of the equation. It also leads to the most efficient tactic being tank and spank. If the AI was changed so the fights became many-to-many then there'd be less pressure to be min-maxed as your warrior build wouldn't have to be able to survive against multiple mobs. They'd just have to be able to block one mob from the squishy back row.

---

It also leads to the most efficient tactic being tank and spank. If the AI was changed so the fights became many-to-many then there'd be less pressure to be min-maxed as your warrior build wouldn't have to be able to survive against multiple mobs. They'd just have to be able to block one mob from the squishy back row.

---

Wouldn't that just mean that the min-max would be different? Certain DPS classes might have to go for a bit more survivability or what have you. Not to mention in games that don't use an agro mechanic there already are optimal builds, like in NWN or BG2.

Really changing the mechanics of a fight like that isn't going to mean that there won't be an optimal way to do something. As with any RPG there are always optimal builds which perform better than others. It would be a nightmare as well to literally balance a game so that any play style or build would work. Perhaps with a game where there are less customability options. However even in a game like WoW it would be an impossible task to take on.

If someone can figure out a way for it to work though I, and any MMO developer, would be all ears to hear it.

Let me simplify for the OP.

POWER

Thats why people care. Thats why people grind. Thats why people compete.

MMORPGs and POWER are intrinsically related.

In other genres, power isnt felt as deeply.

If its a single player game, you dont have power over others.

If its a first person shooter, adventure, action game, your power gap is minimal, you are either locked with the same power you had at the start, or your power curve is fixed by the developers at each point of the game. The ilusion effect is weak.

In RPGs you have a stronger sense of power, you start weak and end up inevitably über. The ilusion effect is stronger, but....

In MMORPGs, the POWER you experience is like a nuclear explosion. Not only your power range varies imenselly, not only in intensity, but in scope. You can use your power against real people, wich exponensialize the feeling. It takes much longer than any other game, but its much more satisfying and justifiable time and effort spent as well. Hell, it even justify real money investment, communities, teamspeak/ventrillo servers, sites/communities.

We are talking about human nature. Its unavoidable. People want more and more power. MMORPGs are made so people start weak and through time and effort they can become powerfull. Thats why RMT "pay to win" free to play games are viable, because people care enough to spend real money to acquire virtual power.

In a MMORPG, there is a social consensus between the players. Characters are comparable. Everything is objectivelly measurable. POWER is determinant.

MMORPGs sell Power.

No wonder most of the players are nerds who  also neglect sex. They think its better than sex. Sex lasts some minutes, whatever you get from a MMORPG lasts much longer...

Do you understood now what we are talking about?

OFF COURSE THEY WILL CRUNCH NUMBERS.

Crunch numbers is the least they will do for power.

Originally posted by Nadril

 

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It also leads to the most efficient tactic being tank and spank. If the AI was changed so the fights became many-to-many then there'd be less pressure to be min-maxed as your warrior build wouldn't have to be able to survive against multiple mobs. They'd just have to be able to block one mob from the squishy back row.

---

 

Wouldn't that just mean that the min-max would be different? Certain DPS classes might have to go for a bit more survivability or what have you. Not to mention in games that don't use an agro mechanic there already are optimal builds, like in NWN or BG2.

Really changing the mechanics of a fight like that isn't going to mean that there won't be an optimal way to do something. As with any RPG there are always optimal builds which perform better than others. It would be a nightmare as well to literally balance a game so that any play style or build would work. Perhaps with a game where there are less customability options. However even in a game like WoW it would be an impossible task to take on.

If someone can figure out a way for it to work though I, and any MMO developer, would be all ears to hear it.

Well i'm not sure it will work but the idea is more that the min-max stays exactly the same but is less important, example, three players enter a room with three mobs:

Option A) The three mobs follow the regular aggro mechanic and attack the nearest player (best tank) and it stays that way as long as the players don't mess up their aggro management.

Option B) The three mobs attack the nearest player. On the next tick the AI for the first mob AI says this one is covered and so the AI for the other two looks for the next nearest player and attacks him. The next tick the AI for the second mob says I've got this one covered and so the third mob AI looks for and attacks the third player.

In the first case, assuming it's a tough matchup between the players and mobs, then you might need the main tank and healer to be min-maxed to have any chance of winning because the mob damage is concentrated whereas in the second case it might be easier to win if you had three min-maxed players but it wouldn't be as neccessary.

Somewhere among the many to many fight your group would need an overlap or advantage over the mobs but one of the generic roles in any group would be any build or play style that could keep one same level mob occupied for a reasonable length of time.

Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

people did crunch city of heroes.  It just takes more data and a smarter player to figure it out.

The trick is to Make it so the more people use the same combo the weaker it gets. this way they will keep their mouths shut.

Hide the numbers and people will figure them out anyway.

The only way I see to circumvent min - maxing is add a larger focus on player skill, meaning both mental and physical skills.  There would still be min - max builds out there but if someone sucks at what they are doing it doesn't much matter, so there would be more variables that players couldn't track about a player.

Originally posted by tupodawg999

Originally posted by Nadril

 

---

It also leads to the most efficient tactic being tank and spank. If the AI was changed so the fights became many-to-many then there'd be less pressure to be min-maxed as your warrior build wouldn't have to be able to survive against multiple mobs. They'd just have to be able to block one mob from the squishy back row.

---

 

Wouldn't that just mean that the min-max would be different? Certain DPS classes might have to go for a bit more survivability or what have you. Not to mention in games that don't use an agro mechanic there already are optimal builds, like in NWN or BG2.

Really changing the mechanics of a fight like that isn't going to mean that there won't be an optimal way to do something. As with any RPG there are always optimal builds which perform better than others. It would be a nightmare as well to literally balance a game so that any play style or build would work. Perhaps with a game where there are less customability options. However even in a game like WoW it would be an impossible task to take on.

If someone can figure out a way for it to work though I, and any MMO developer, would be all ears to hear it.

 

Well i'm not sure it will work but the idea is more that the min-max stays exactly the same but is less important, example, three players enter a room with three mobs:

Option A) The three mobs follow the regular aggro mechanic and attack the nearest player (best tank) and it stays that way as long as the players don't mess up their aggro management.

Option B) The three mobs attack the nearest player. On the next tick the AI for the first mob AI says this one is covered and so the AI for the other two looks for the next nearest player and attacks him. The next tick the AI for the second mob says I've got this one covered and so the third mob AI looks for and attacks the third player.

In the first case, assuming it's a tough matchup between the players and mobs, then you might need the main tank and healer to be min-maxed to have any chance of winning because the mob damage is concentrated whereas in the second case it might be easier to win if you had three min-maxed players but it wouldn't be as neccessary.

Somewhere among the many to many fight your group would need an overlap or advantage over the mobs but one of the generic roles in any group would be any build or play style that could keep one same level mob occupied for a reasonable length of time.

A balanced, even if primitive, system is one that takes into consideration that 3 players can kill each monster faster. So, the rate at which 1 player gains xp can be the same as the rate at which 3 players together gain xp. So, make tanks have 4 times as many hps as any other class and let them tank 1 monster super easy if they are soloing or tank 3 monsters simultaneously while paying attention to the health bar.

Originally posted by Ekibiogami

Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

people did crunch city of heroes.  It just takes more data and a smarter player to figure it out.

 

The trick is to Make it so the more people use the same combo the weaker it gets. this way they will keep their mouths shut.

This is a great idea and would help prevent cookie cutters. You'd try to produce something that works, but not what every one else uses.

It sort of makes sense to. Mobs just get used to fighting predictable players.

Another way to stop min maxers is to have more variables affecting the damage, things like elemental buffs, weather, time etc. Make the maths non-linear and mob specific weaknesses to certain weapons or attacks. Finally armour changinf should not be possible during combat and weapon switching should take the expected amount of time.