The original topic rather exhausted, I thought I'd change the title to what is currently the hot topic in this thread.

Is there a difference?

Aren't Expansions just expensive RMT's of the worst kind?

They cost a lot, often significantly more than the monthly fee.

They are practically FORCED! You can't reach max level without them. Can't get the faster mount. Can't get the newest PvP gear. Can't get the new Ability System. Can't use the new Item Slot. You're gimped without it! You're limited without it!

And the content? How many people actually reach max level? To all those with Alt-itus, those who slowly crawl to the next level, they never really reach max level. Yet to continue to PvP, or because the features are spread throughout levels, sometimes you are FORCED to buy an expansion which contents you will never see.

Or perhaps you don't care about content... but you REALLY want to be that new class or race! Well that's $$$$ just to unlock a class/race. Is this not the exact same as RMT?

You can only be level 60. You can't get any powerful, or go anywhere higher, until you pay $$$$$$$$$ to unlock the features.

There is a new class ability, and you have to pay $$$$$ to get it.

If an expansion cost $40, and all you get is a level cap increase of 60 to 70, and content for those 10 levels, a new class, and a new race, isn't that the exact same as an RMT where you can buy a potion that gives you +10 levels worth of stats, for $20, $10 to unlock the new class, and $10 to unlock the new race?

================================

If an expansion cost $60, and gives you

1) One new island.
2) 5 More Levels
3) 1 New Race
4) 1 New Class
5) 3 New Features
6) One special item

and RMT shop has these things for sale:

1) One new island. $20
2) 5 More Levels $20
3) 1 New Race $6
4) 1 New Class $6
5) 3 New Features $2 each
6) One special item $2
7) 2hours Double XP for $5

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?

===============================

So what's so bad about RMT, if they already have EXPANSIONS? Aesthetic RMT? Non-Aesthetic RMT?

What gives?
Discuss.

Just wait. Some bean-counter is working on a plan to add imbalancing buyables to any game with RMT. It's too good an opportunity to miss.

Wake up.

mmm bean burritos

somehow I think I missed the point of this thread

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Just wait. Some bean-counter is working on a plan to add imbalancing buyables to any game with RMT. It's too good an opportunity to miss.

 

Wake up.

You speak as if you've experienced this before, but I don't recall a store bought MMO with a monthly charge ever going that route with RMT...  I'd be interested in the title, I'd love to find a chart of the player population tanking after such a decision, LOL.

Driving away half your player base for the sake of adding $2 "needed" items probably wouldn't fly in the face of an MMO that is already charging monthly fees.  If it's even considered, I expect it will be squashed pretty damn quick once those in the know (Developers/Publishers) point out that a dead game makes no money.

Originally posted by ArchAngel102

There is no legitimate reason for people to hate Microtransactions, as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition (which in Champions Online is PvP, as there is no challenge in PvE).

I believe the majority are under some delusion that Microtransactions will steal their money, cause their opponents to have unfair advantages, etc..

If the MT's are just costume pieces, easier traveling, and XP boosts, there is absolutely no reason to get upset. You can simply never spend a dime over the monthly fee, and that guy you fight in PvP who leveled to your level in 1/2 the time or who has a shinier cape will have no more advantage over you than anyone else. Level bracket PvP doesn't work that way, you're not in direct competition with people in PvE, and costumes don't give damage boosts.

No reason to whine.
No reason to hate.
And absolutely NO REASON to abandon a game because of it.

In fact... you might just BENEFIT from MT's, having more and better updates.

All hate for something that doesn't change the balance of PvP is completely illogical and without valid reason. It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.

You my dear SIR must be stupid, we have game X it charges me 14,99$ for me to play their game. If I pay this I get everything. Then we have company Y they charges me 14,99$ to play their game but then I have to fork up some extra money if I want to travel faster or get a new item??? 

Eample 2 we have restaurant X they charge me 20$ to eat with a soda and bread on the side then we have restaurant Y they charge me  20$ to eat and an extra 5$ for the soda and another 2$ for the bread. Now you can argue and say that I can drink water and skipp the bread I realy dont need it, it's just an extra...... But if I want it I have to fork up that money...... Microtransactions are the plague and should be avoided att all cost.

Sorry that is just the way that I feel, so no champions online for me, Im gona play Aion instead...

Dungeoans and Dragons Online will be interesting to watch when it drops its subscription and becomes F2P later this summer.  I think I saw something about a RMT store, but can't be certain - anyone know for sure?  If they are having one, it will be even more interesting to watch!

Originally posted by ArchAngel102 

...that guy you fight in PvP who leveled to your level in 1/2 the time ... [snip]... will have no more advantage over you than anyone else.

He will if he continues to level at twice the rate I do.

Anyone who doesn't support the OP's idea is a child.  lol.

 Meh, i wouldn't have a problem with MT's If that was the sole payment model. However, it isn't, 15 bucks + MT's to access other junk. For now, its just cosmetic items until companies see willing customers such as yourself willing to bend ... then they start adding whatever they please to make an extra buck off those that can afford it. Smart business move? Probably so, but I won't help it become a reality.

 The problem with allowing Aesthetic MT's is that once you allow them you are only one step away from allowing non-aesthetic MTs. Its a "slippery slope" issue. Game developers screw us all over WAYYY to much these days and its because we let them get away with so much of it. We as the customers need to start putting our foot down and make it clear that they can't keep pushing us around. The only way we can do that is by telling them exactly which issues will prevent us from putting money down on a game.

And what is childish is calling everyone who doesn't agree with your point of view childish.

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Dungeoans and Dragons Online will be interesting to watch when it drops its subscription and becomes F2P later this summer.  I think I saw something about a RMT store, but can't be certain - anyone know for sure?  If they are having one, it will be even more interesting to watch!

From what I understand about DDO's proposed F2P system is that it will be "free" to log into the game and have an account. Everything after that you pay for. The ability to use stores in the game will be charged for, the ability to enter high-end areas will be charged for and many other features will all become "extras" that you will have to pay for the rights to use through their cash shop.

Originally posted by ArchAngel102

 It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.

Right...because everyone who disagrees with you is just an ignorant bumpkin and how dare they question you, the all-mighty and all-knowing one...What haven of authoritarian, elitist statism did you escape from?

Originally posted by Bama1267

 Meh, i wouldn't have a problem with MT's If that was the sole payment model. However, it isn't, 15 bucks + MT's to access other junk. For now, its just cosmetic items until companies see willing customers such as yourself willing to bend ... then they start adding whatever they please to make an extra buck off those that can afford it. Smart business move? Probably so, but I won't help it become a reality.

 

Same here...I don't have any issues with rmt in general.  Its when a company wants to have that on an ongoing basis plus a monthly fee that I question wtf is going on.  Not to mention the op says this will add even more updates and development towards the game which remains to be seen at this point.  Maybe it will or maybe it won't but I suppose after co is out for a while we'll find out.

I wouldn't even mind if a game offered you a choice of either purcahsing through their rmt store or paying a monthly fee that gave you access to the material.  its when a company expects both if you want everything a game has to offer that I have an issue with.

Originally posted by Raltar

 The problem with allowing Aesthetic MT's is that once you allow them you are only one step away from allowing non-aesthetic MTs. Its a "slippery slope" issue. Game developers screw us all over WAYYY to much these days and its because we let them get away with so much of it. We as the customers need to start putting our foot down and make it clear that they can't keep pushing us around. The only way we can do that is by telling them exactly which issues will prevent us from putting money down on a game.

And what is childish is calling everyone who doesn't agree with your point of view childish.

 

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Dungeoans and Dragons Online will be interesting to watch when it drops its subscription and becomes F2P later this summer.  I think I saw something about a RMT store, but can't be certain - anyone know for sure?  If they are having one, it will be even more interesting to watch!

From what I understand about DDO's proposed F2P system is that it will be "free" to log into the game and have an account. Everything after that you pay for. The ability to use stores in the game will be charged for, the ability to enter high-end areas will be charged for and many other features will all become "extras" that you will have to pay for the rights to use through their cash shop.

With DDOs new buisness model you can choose to eith be a "free" player or a VIP. As a VIP you pay nromal subscripton and get access to all contetn plus you get 500 "turbine points" every month to spend on extra stuff like healing potions etc.
 

As a "Free player" you will not have access to everything, you must pay to unclock some classes/races and also alot of the quests/zones in the game. I think roughly 1/3 of the content is available without spending money and then you buy adventure packs for the content you want.

You also get TPs from playing the game so you could grind for them instead of buying.

The way Champions and SOE is having box+ monthly sub+ microtransactions is just greedy and I will never support anything like that. The DDO model looks really interesting IMO and makes paying much more flexible since I can choose to buy what I want when I want it.

Originally posted by Papadam

With DDOs new buisness model you can choose to eith be a "free" player or a VIP. As a VIP you pay nromal subscripton and get access to all contetn plus you get 500 "turbine points" every month to spend on extra stuff like healing potions etc.
 

As a "Free player" you will not have access to everything, you must pay to unclock some classes/races and also alot of the quests/zones in the game. I think roughly 1/3 of the content is available without spending money and then you buy adventure packs for the content you want.

You also get TPs from playing the game so you could grind for them instead of buying.

The way Champions and SOE is having box+ monthly sub+ microtransactions is just greedy and I will never support anything like that. The DDO model looks really interesting IMO and makes paying much more flexible since I can choose to buy what I want when I want it.

I actually think Turbine, for once with that game heh, might be on to something with their new business model for DDO. It might not be able to salvage that game but if a company were to go that route I think it makes a lot more sense than what the companies like you mentioned are trying to do.

...and by the way op, Archangel102, while it doesn't apply to co because far as I know it is just aesthetic , how the fuck does being able to purchase something that allows you to level in half the time someone else is able to qualify as an aesthetic item?

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Originally posted by ArchAngel102

There is no legitimate reason for people to hate Microtransactions, as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition (which in Champions Online is PvP, as there is no challenge in PvE).

I believe the majority are under some delusion that Microtransactions will steal their money, cause their opponents to have unfair advantages, etc..

If the MT's are just costume pieces, easier traveling, and XP boosts, there is absolutely no reason to get upset. You can simply never spend a dime over the monthly fee, and that guy you fight in PvP who leveled to your level in 1/2 the time or who has a shinier cape will have no more advantage over you than anyone else. Level bracket PvP doesn't work that way, you're not in direct competition with people in PvE, and costumes don't give damage boosts.

No reason to whine.
No reason to hate.
And absolutely NO REASON to abandon a game because of it.

In fact... you might just BENEFIT from MT's, having more and better updates.

All hate for something that doesn't change the balance of PvP is completely illogical and without valid reason. It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.

 

You my dear SIR must be stupid, we have game X it charges me 14,99$ for me to play their game. If I pay this I get everything. Then we have company Y they charges me 14,99$ to play their game but then I have to fork up some extra money if I want to travel faster or get a new item??? 

Eample 2 we have restaurant X they charge me 20$ to eat with a soda and bread on the side then we have restaurant Y they charge me  20$ to eat and an extra 5$ for the soda and another 2$ for the bread. Now you can argue and say that I can drink water and skipp the bread I realy dont need it, it's just an extra...... But if I want it I have to fork up that money...... Microtransactions are the plague and should be avoided att all cost.

Sorry that is just the way that I feel, so no champions online for me, Im gona play Aion instead...

Don't confuse him anymore than he already is...

Originally posted by ArchAngel102

There is no legitimate reason for people to hate Microtransactions, as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition (which in Champions Online is PvP, as there is no challenge in PvE).

I believe the majority are under some delusion that Microtransactions will steal their money, cause their opponents to have unfair advantages, etc..

If the MT's are just costume pieces, easier traveling, and XP boosts, there is absolutely no reason to get upset. You can simply never spend a dime over the monthly fee, and that guy you fight in PvP who leveled to your level in 1/2 the time or who has a shinier cape will have no more advantage over you than anyone else. Level bracket PvP doesn't work that way, you're not in direct competition with people in PvE, and costumes don't give damage boosts.

No reason to whine.
No reason to hate.
And absolutely NO REASON to abandon a game because of it.

In fact... you might just BENEFIT from MT's, having more and better updates.

All hate for something that doesn't change the balance of PvP is completely illogical and without valid reason. It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.

Er,, wouldn't people boycotting health care town halls not bother going? 

Some foks don't want to see microtransactions in their game, regardless of the intent of the items.

They don't want to see people leveling faster than them, or wearing some item they don't have or traveling faster simply because those folks are willing to spend the money.

Who are you to tell them they shouldn't avoid this game if that's the model the developers intend to follow?

Ok, I'm a children because I don't agree with you, you must be really naive.

1- When you already have a buttom called "C Store", "Item Mall" or whatever within your game interface leading you to a damn shopping in a virtual world, charging you for stuff, adding more than aesthethic stuff is just another small step. You'll be too busy addicted to the game in order to notice that before it's too late, trust me.

2- I don't know about you, but I hate hidden extra costs on things I might want, and that's why I'll gladly pay an entry fee and a monthly fee to keep it that way. Want to charge me for a expansion? Ok... Want to charge me for in-game items, you dare putting a real money shopping in the game I'm playing? Good bye.

Originally posted by ArchAngel102

There is no legitimate reason for people to hate Microtransactions, as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition (which in Champions Online is PvP, as there is no challenge in PvE).

I believe the majority are under some delusion that Microtransactions will steal their money, cause their opponents to have unfair advantages, etc..

If the MT's are just costume pieces, easier traveling, and XP boosts, there is absolutely no reason to get upset. You can simply never spend a dime over the monthly fee, and that guy you fight in PvP who leveled to your level in 1/2 the time or who has a shinier cape will have no more advantage over you than anyone else. Level bracket PvP doesn't work that way, you're not in direct competition with people in PvE, and costumes don't give damage boosts.

No reason to whine.
No reason to hate.
And absolutely NO REASON to abandon a game because of it.

In fact... you might just BENEFIT from MT's, having more and better updates.

All hate for something that doesn't change the balance of PvP is completely illogical and without valid reason. It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.

"If the MT's are just costume pieces, easier traveling, and XP boosts, there is absolutely no reason to get upset."

And you can't see how things like selling easier travelling and XP boosts couldn't create perverse incentives in a game's design?

I've no doubt it's possible to create a good MT game but the most obvious ways to do it seems to involve trying to get players addicted to the progression and then taking it away from them until they pay. It's almost extortion.

"And absolutely NO REASON to abandon a game because of it."

If I was playing a sub game and they decided to add MT on top I'd see it as them realising how addictive these games can be and decidiing to exploit their players. It reminds me of sports teams who bring out a new strip every year to make money off their young fans. It's commonplace in commercial activity built on extreme loyalty like music and sports but it's still exploitation.

For games that are going the MT route as a last resort then it's a bit different. The DDO method of aiming to make a good game and then selling access to it in segments seems reasonable to me.

Dont be naive.

They dont announce their real plans, because that would prevent people from getting hooked.

Once people are hooked, you will start to see more and more stuff in the item mall that are certain to affect the balance of power between players.

No F2P lives without the "pay to win" factor.

What do you think is the % of income that comes from aesthetic sells and the % of income that comes from "power".

PEOPLE WILL BUY POWER.

If  100% of the power available in the cash shop costs $10, people who have $!0, will spend $10.

If 100% of the power available in the cash shop costs $300, people will spend the maximum they can to reach that power, some will be able to spend only $10 still, but some will spend $50, some will spend $300.

We are starting to see Micro Transactions / Cash Shop / Item Malls whose 100% of the power benefits require more than a thousand dollars spent on items malls.

They purposefully make it so the more money is spent the higher the overall effect in competition.

One thing is a % of the total benefits you can get from the shop. Another thing is the % of the total power you get with cash shop and without it.

So, besides seeing games where to get all the possible benefits from the cash shop would require more money than they are willing to spend or what they think is fair, or justified for such type of game, WE ARE SEEING GAMES WHERE A BIG CHUNK OF YOUR TOTAL POWER IS DEPENDENT ON THE CASH SHOP.

Example:

One guy without spending on cash shop, but playing all day long 12+ hours a day after three months get lets say 75% of the TOTAL POWER ACHIEVABLE FOR A CHARACTER. (with everything accounted, from levels, skills, items, etc)

And lets say that the only way for that character to go past that 75% is start spending money on the cash shop.

And then, we have another guy, who bought 100% of all the power available in the cash shop (through all the stuff that gives you more power, directly or indirectly, like itens that makes you get more xp, more/better drops/rewards, higher chances of upgrades, or items that prevent failures or permanent loses of equipment, all kinds of gambles/lottery mall schemes)

That guy, play only 6 hours every day, for one month. He achieved 75% of the TOTAL POWER ACHIEVABLE, except that 50% of it, he got playing 6 hours every day for one month, and 25% he got BUYING STRAIGHT FROM THE ITEM SHOP.

Both are balanced. Is it the type of game you want to play?

To be the special hero, legendary guy on that game, not only spending 12+hours a day for three months, but buying the 100% of all the power available in the cash shop.

Those who do that will be the ones who will "own".

Thats what you get in f2p games.

Aesthetical MT is how they introduce/justify its existant in the game while trying to prevent an outbreak in the community so you actually get the people to play your game.

Normally, three months or so after, they start introducing "POWER" in the Cash shop. And then, what are you going to do? Get a refund for all the time and spent on the game? Put them on court because they significantly changed the core game mechanics breaking the good will of the contract? All the marketting was a lie and you want a indemnization?

Dont be naive.

They will sell power in the cash shop, down your throat and use stupid excuses:

"We have to maintain the servers"

Dont be a fool. Untill we have laws preventing them from changing how the power is achieved without damaging old players, or without changing the cash shop afterwards, you are signing an empty contract.

Did you read the CONTRACT?

It says:

"We own your account, your character and everything on it."

"We can change everything we want any time we want."

"We make the rules and change them without your approval."

"We can ban you based on our own criteries."

MMORPGs are not products. MMORPGs are services. Still they didnt got enough attention on the court rooms and in the laws and juridic cases. We have no rights. Dont believe stupid things like the Champions Online "We will have only asthetic stuff".

Hey you developer. If 6 months later you decide to change anything, will you commit sepuku? Can I go and kill you because you broke your promisse? How do I get revenge? Can I sue your ass for big bugs because you made me spent over a hundred hours of my life pursuing virtual power that now, because of your change, is now worth just a fraction? My time and effort spent was shrinked, thrown out of the window, will you compensate me how I think you should?

I laugh at the faces of ignorant youngsters who doesnt know how things works.

Im a lawyer and a player and let me tell you... "Players rights" will exist in the future, you will own your character and your time and effort spent on the game will be your propriety and significant game changes will be seen as a break in the contract, but not now,  it is still on its infancy.  There is a lot of theory to be written and analogies to consumerists rights start to apply and popularization/awakening of the people with real power so we get our "rights".

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Originally posted by ArchAngel102

There is no legitimate reason for people to hate Microtransactions, as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition (which in Champions Online is PvP, as there is no challenge in PvE).

I believe the majority are under some delusion that Microtransactions will steal their money, cause their opponents to have unfair advantages, etc..

If the MT's are just costume pieces, easier traveling, and XP boosts, there is absolutely no reason to get upset. You can simply never spend a dime over the monthly fee, and that guy you fight in PvP who leveled to your level in 1/2 the time or who has a shinier cape will have no more advantage over you than anyone else. Level bracket PvP doesn't work that way, you're not in direct competition with people in PvE, and costumes don't give damage boosts.

No reason to whine.
No reason to hate.
And absolutely NO REASON to abandon a game because of it.

In fact... you might just BENEFIT from MT's, having more and better updates.

All hate for something that doesn't change the balance of PvP is completely illogical and without valid reason. It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.

 

You my dear SIR must be stupid, we have game X it charges me 14,99$ for me to play their game. If I pay this I get everything. Then we have company Y they charges me 14,99$ to play their game but then I have to fork up some extra money if I want to travel faster or get a new item??? 

Eample 2 we have restaurant X they charge me 20$ to eat with a soda and bread on the side then we have restaurant Y they charge me  20$ to eat and an extra 5$ for the soda and another 2$ for the bread. Now you can argue and say that I can drink water and skipp the bread I realy dont need it, it's just an extra...... But if I want it I have to fork up that money...... Microtransactions are the plague and should be avoided att all cost.

Sorry that is just the way that I feel, so no champions online for me, Im gona play Aion instead...

No!  Math am BAD!  Makes head hurt!