Originally posted by Emotep

Originally posted by tehowl

*deleted a bunch of quots here*

I am curious if u have ever played any of the Western RPGs because, as many people have pointed out, they generaly dont have any mandatory grind in them (at least the good ones). I haven't played any of the games that u have listed, so i cant really compare the quality of Asian VS Western RPG, but in my experience any Western RPGs that have grind in them are not very good.

In my opinion a RPG is supposed to be a giant puzzle that you try to unravel and leveling should only serve as means to change the scenery and introduce new elements.

An example of RPG that requires absolutely no grind is Fallout 1 and Fallout 2. Both are considered to be contenders for the "greatest RPGs ever made" title. Each game can be beaten under 10 minutes by a person who mastered the game, however there is enough content to keep u going and discovering new things for weeks, months even.

 

Yup.  I've played the Elder Scrolls games, including Oblivion.  In that game, I grinded lockpicking for a few hours in order to master the stealth skill and grinded agility skill points by bunnyhopping around the main city for a few hours.  I also grinded sneak skill by auto following NPCs for a few hours while stealthed.

Also have played the Knights of the Old Republic games, where I spent many hours grinding for the best  lightsaber crystals and grinding levels for skillpoints, so I could run the Jedi Gauntlet at the end of the game that you need to do in order to finish the game.

 

First of all, i dont find Oblivion to be all that good. Second, if i remember correctly in that game you can open even the hardest lock with a low lockpick skill if your skill as a player is good enough. Grinding agility was completely optional. I would even consider it to be a form of cheating. The game did not intend for you bunnyhop around town.

Didn't play KOTOR, but as someone pointed out earlier in this thread you dont have to grind for crystals if you don't want to and if I played the game, i probably wouldn't.

My point is: if you are trying to find grind, you probably will find it in most games, but it is not the game's fault, it's just your playstyle.

If you haven't played Lineage 1, you do not know what grinding is.

Please, do not complain.

You can deny the meaning of grind all you want, but if I do not do the same thing repeatedly, I am not grinding.

You don't HAVE to do missions to get experience to level. You choose to.

And what do you mean "if you have fun doing it I guess?" It's a game. The ONLY purpose IS to have fun. There's nothing else. You play games to be entertained. Any other reason is setting yourself up for failure. If you have fun being at level 1 for 3 years, you're winning the game.

You're kind of speaking my point. Almost word for word. Were you looking for an argument or a win? I'm lost lol.

Yes, if you aren't doing the same thing over and over it isn't a grind. I agree! If you have fun being lvl 1 for 3 years, yes you win! /cheer I agree with that too!

I also agree with not having to do missions for experience. Absolutely! Tons of things to do. Kill people. Kill mobs.

The only thing I could argue about is the "play to have fun" because that's technically inaccurate but not wrong. It's to be "entertained" but meh, that's splitting hairs.

Generally, I agree with your whole post though!

But it isn't me changing the definition of the word "grind", keep that in mind. /wink

IMO Wow is my favorite game to level in. It takes about 120 hours of gameplay, which I believe is a nice reasonable time to reach max level. Players used to a long grind may hate it, but I think its the directions MMO's should go in. Also, WoW is all about questing and not just grinding certain areas which i enjoy also, it gives leveling some meaning. Also WoW may be short grind in comparison to other games, but its not like a ridiculous 20 hours to max level or something like that. It takes a little longer than it takes to beat regular RPG, unless your going for lvl 99 every item in FF7 or something. It's a nice 1-2 month long grind to people who play the about 1-5 hours a day. It also gives you a chance to level other classes, but not to a ridiculous extent where you can grind out max level characters like crazy, but the timeframe for leveling does not discourage someone from starting an alt.

 There is no avoiding a grind in an mmo. A grind is repeating something over and over again just to advance or obtain better gear. Does not matter what path you take you are still going to grind. MMO's are paticular acceptable to grinding because there is an end. Once you get to the end there is nothing to do except grinding gear, pvp, whatever... If you do missions you will see that you have to kill x amount of mobs to be able to complete a certain mission. Or you will have to run to x location. There are more but it requires you do something. Outside of that, it is impossible.Yes litterally the only way of avoiding a grind is to stay lvl 1 forever.

Who ever said Diablo was not a grind is horribly mistaken about it not being a grind because it was a grind.  You have to advance through the whole game than you complete one difficulty, than you started all over again in a hardier setting.  Once you complete the whole game you have three choices from how I see it. Rinse and repeat. Pvp forever.  Doing the same diffculity over and over and over and over and over again for better gear.

The only way of avoiding a grind is making artificial AI. Meaning a real breathing and living world. Like Earth. Why? Because in MMO's you can only go as far as the game will allow you to do and there is only a limited amount of that. Unless of course they keep on coming out with expansions and adding more and more options to the game. ALL MMO'S ARE A GRIND because of this logic.

However you can think it not as a grind because grinds are typically called boring. You can still be having fun but you are still grinding. 

So if you agree, how can you say that they build grinds?

If you don't have to do it, then how is the game built around doing it? You never must grind. It's your choice, but you don't have to.

I have obtained everything I desired in games without grinding. Did other players have it first? Of course, but I bet I had more fun getting there. Do I max out characters? yup, am I the first? Nope. But from the looks of these forums about how much everyone hates grinds, it seems like I have much more fun getting maxed out than many other players.

I have memories of all night missions where I'd level up, and not even realize it. There's been times, as I'm sure others have had, where I'd click on my stats and realized they'd gone up, or that I had more points to use.

Why? Because I don't grind. I just play.

:D

P.S I don't discuss to win, I discuss to share thoughts.

Originally posted by Ginaz

Originally posted by Soupism

Originally posted by Ginaz

I think someone got the term "rpg" confused with "mmo".  I don't remeber having to grind at all in games like Baldur's gate, KOTOR or any of the Elder Scrolls games (ie. Oblivion).

 

Oblivion. Perfect example. Want to be a master at stealth? Or pickpockets? Grind it. Hide in a corner picking a door, or a pocket through a gate while stealthed for hours. Or rubber band your ps3 controller while you sleep to max move silently. Necessity? No. Desire? Sure.

 

I've never grinded in any single player rpg I've ever played.  Why the hell would I do what you suggested???  Its not like I'm on a time schedule or competing against other players.  I raised my skills by, you know, just playing the game.  Anyone that grinds in a single player game is dumber than a chocolate Santa.

"Grinding" is a word that never surfaced during any PnP or CRPG gaming I've done in the past 30 or so years. It's a different generation and a different playstyle now, though.

Macroing skill gain in Oblivion? Just... wow. 

I'm quite sure that if you put the majority of the current generation of MMO gamers in an ADnD game, they would just sit in one spot and ask the DM to roll for encounters over and over. Then, after levelling to the cap without leaving the same 10 by 10 room, they'd ask if the level cap is going to be raised in the next expansion.

For me I don't mind a grind if its fun, Sadly this makes 98% of korean mmorpgs a no go since their grinds are ludicrously long and increadbly boring. Its more the boring part. I have a feeling Aion will just be another korean grind mmorpg that copys world of warcraft. I've played it, and while I never got high leveled I can already see the korean grindyness coming out of Aion as low as level 10. Personally I was going to get Aion but after trying my friends beta account I decided it'd be a waste of my time/money. Probally going to buy Champions online, it looks like a much funner game with alot more to it. The fact there are no pre-set classes intrigues me. Have fun whoever decides to play aion, i'll be glad I didn't bother. Might pick it up later on when it'll be in a bargin bin for 10-20 bucks.. Prob in a year or 2, maybe less.

Ziva-

If you don't have to do it, then how is the game built around doing it? You never must grind. It's your choice, but you don't have to.

Because the game itself provides it. The game is designed to have an artificial "end" that is designed to keep you on the "hook" to continue playing until there is new content thus furthering your game time played and increasing their profits. It's why it is there. Period. Game developers do not jsut toss in super elite hard to kill bosses like they do sidequests. They put way more time and resources and thought into the scenario to make it difficult. In order to beat it, you generally have to be at the top of your game. Meaning... levels, gear and skill. In order to achieve those, you grind. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want to argue semantics so I'm going to use a disclaimer and say YOU DON'T HAVE TO SEE END GAME IN ORDER TO-

A)Have fun.

B)Do just what other people say you have to do.

You can take 2x, 10, even 1309486938302x as long to get to the same point. Yes. Technically. But although you do have free will to do that, it isn't how the game was designed. So while you can choose to play the game how you want, the point of ANY game is to see the end, and in order to do that you grind in order to achieve it, or you "cheat" and watch someone else do it who did grind to get there =P.

I have obtained everything I desired in games without grinding. Did other players have it first? Of course, but I bet I had more fun getting there. Do I max out characters? yup, am I the first? Nope. But from the looks of these forums about how much everyone hates grinds, it seems like I have much more fun getting maxed out than many other players.

I cannot speak for you personally, or your personal playstyle. Not everyone can complete every game they play. Nothing wrong with it. Some are even happy with mediocre items, gear, etc because they had fun getting them. No problem with that either. Not saying what you do is wrong. Although I'm curious as to what game and how you maxed out your char without grinding...I'm sure something is missing, or you did grind but choose to use a different term for it /shrug.

I have memories of all night missions where I'd level up, and not even realize it. There's been times, as I'm sure others have had, where I'd click on my stats and realized they'd gone up, or that I had more points to use.

All night missions? I'm unsure what that means. If you mean quests, especially quests that aren't a main storyline.. chances are that was grinding =P.

Why? Because I don't grind. I just play.

So do people who grind =). That's all it is. Just playing. Redoing some content, or doing optional content because of either a lack of options (not enough members, maybe a needed ingredient that randomly drops off a mob, or shortage of coinage). Doing something new doesn't always mean you aren't grinding. Maybe by the true dictionary, but we aren't being technical or literal I hope. I'm using gaming terminologies. Like "I need to grind out these last reports for my boss" or "Gotta grind out my last few pages of homework before I can do that".

In short I think too many people bristle when you use the words "must" or even "grind". There are tons of things you do everyday that could be seen as grinding, and it shows in a lot of posts that I see when people use "must" or "have to" like I'm saying if you don't NCSoft is going to put a gun to your head until you do. This is not true.

And while it might be MY definition of "grind" that seems off... please keep in mind that it is over 10 years of mmo gaming and keeping up with terminologies that got me there lol.

I didn't bother to read 15 pages of this but I don't remember any sort of grind in KOTOR, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Planescape: Torment, or even Mass Effect to name a few rpg's I've played.

MMO's yes, all of them are grinds but I fail to see the grinds in rpgs.

As some rpgs do not have grinds, some do. Optional or otherwise.

Just because planesape didn't (my copy hasn't been played since 1 month after it was released /shrug) doesn't mean they all don't. And although planescape didn't have a grind, if you wanted to try different class types and started over.. maybe for different endings or options... you used a "grind" to get there. Or just used a well planned save which means the same thing just less work.

It has nothing to do about the grind and everything to do about whether or not you're having fun along the way.

Not sure if this question has been asked before but I'll reinforce it anyway... What has grind got to do with roll playing?

Fleshing out your character. Anyone can have a rogue, or a warrior, or a mage or <insert class here>. But having what TYPE of <insert class here> is it? That's where grind comes into play. Max level, max stat, completed all quests, completed X% of the game... list goes on and on.

It isn't necessary for a single player rpg, but if you want to differentiate yourself from others, or brag, or compete, or attain something specific... chances are you are going to grind it to get it.

Originally posted by Tenken29

Originally posted by Emotep

If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs.    It's like playing Halo and saying "I don't like shooting".

 

Grinding is a time honoured RPG tradition.  Why, I was just playing Final Fantasy VII on my PSP and I spend 3 hours grinding outside Wutai in order to level up my materia.

 

 

 

Grinding in an RPG isn't exactly the same as grinding in an MMO. It's a lot easier in an RPG, imo.

***EDIT*** Slavery used to be an American honoured tradition also.

 

So paying to Grind is like Slavery .... um ok.

 

If you dont want to grind no one is forcing you to, play a console game and get everything given to you. A MMO isnt worth playing if you dont have to put time into it.

Originally posted by mbd1968

Not sure if this question has been asked before but I'll reinforce it anyway... What has grind got to do with roll playing?

It doesn't have anything really to do with roleplaying but it ties in with RPGs, specifically CRPGs and console RPGs.

"lolwut?"

Exactly.

The video game RPG is defined by the presence of character advancement and not by the presence of storytelling or roleplaying.

Originally posted by Soupism

Ziva-

If you don't have to do it, then how is the game built around doing it? You never must grind. It's your choice, but you don't have to.

Because the game itself provides it. The game is designed to have an artificial "end" that is designed to keep you on the "hook" to continue playing until there is new content thus furthering your game time played and increasing their profits. It's why it is there. Period. Game developers do not jsut toss in super elite hard to kill bosses like they do sidequests. They put way more time and resources and thought into the scenario to make it difficult. In order to beat it, you generally have to be at the top of your game. Meaning... levels, gear and skill. In order to achieve those, you grind. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want to argue semantics so I'm going to use a disclaimer and say YOU DON'T HAVE TO SEE END GAME IN ORDER TO-

A)Have fun.

B)Do just what other people say you have to do.

You can take 2x, 10, even 1309486938302x as long to get to the same point. Yes. Technically. But although you do have free will to do that, it isn't how the game was designed. So while you can choose to play the game how you want, the point of ANY game is to see the end, and in order to do that you grind in order to achieve it, or you "cheat" and watch someone else do it who did grind to get there =P.

I have obtained everything I desired in games without grinding. Did other players have it first? Of course, but I bet I had more fun getting there. Do I max out characters? yup, am I the first? Nope. But from the looks of these forums about how much everyone hates grinds, it seems like I have much more fun getting maxed out than many other players.

I cannot speak for you personally, or your personal playstyle. Not everyone can complete every game they play. Nothing wrong with it. Some are even happy with mediocre items, gear, etc because they had fun getting them. No problem with that either. Not saying what you do is wrong. Although I'm curious as to what game and how you maxed out your char without grinding...I'm sure something is missing, or you did grind but choose to use a different term for it /shrug.

I have memories of all night missions where I'd level up, and not even realize it. There's been times, as I'm sure others have had, where I'd click on my stats and realized they'd gone up, or that I had more points to use.

All night missions? I'm unsure what that means. If you mean quests, especially quests that aren't a main storyline.. chances are that was grinding =P.

Why? Because I don't grind. I just play.

So do people who grind =). That's all it is. Just playing. Redoing some content, or doing optional content because of either a lack of options (not enough members, maybe a needed ingredient that randomly drops off a mob, or shortage of coinage). Doing something new doesn't always mean you aren't grinding. Maybe by the true dictionary, but we aren't being technical or literal I hope. I'm using gaming terminologies. Like "I need to grind out these last reports for my boss" or "Gotta grind out my last few pages of homework before I can do that".

 

In short I think too many people bristle when you use the words "must" or even "grind". There are tons of things you do everyday that could be seen as grinding, and it shows in a lot of posts that I see when people use "must" or "have to" like I'm saying if you don't NCSoft is going to put a gun to your head until you do. This is not true.

And while it might be MY definition of "grind" that seems off... please keep in mind that it is over 10 years of mmo gaming and keeping up with terminologies that got me there lol.

+100 Kudos point for having the most logical and best answers! Well done. I am happy to see that not all mmorpg.com users are retards. That there are some brains amongst all these trolls.

Originally posted by Emotep

If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs.    It's like playing Halo and saying "I don't like shooting".

 

Grinding is a time honoured RPG tradition.  Why, I was just playing Final Fantasy VII on my PSP and I spend 3 hours grinding outside Wutai in order to level up my materia.

 

 

Are you insane?

Grinding has nothing to do with RPG's. It's something people started doing in the first batch of MMO's to progress their skills. In early MMO's (UO) there wasn't a great deal of "content" as in quest and junk. They were designed as virtual worlds. You were "free" to play how you wanted BUT it left the issue of progress sorta vague

The EQ came along and lineared the shit out of them. Basically putting a set of blinders on the player and shouting "go" and everyone charged for the finish line. And at the end of that race you were rewarded with this new thing SOE invented called a "raid". A very limited and very easy for devs to create & manage mechanic which players fell for hook line and sinker...

Do you want to know why MMO's are in the state they are in? You can track it to the success of EQ over UO as WoW devs have plainly said over and over "they took the best of EQ..."...and what happened after that? Everyone copied WoW.

So no, grind has nothing to do with RPG's. Those are about playing a "role" in a story. The original idea behind MMO's was that you were going to be able to play that "role" in a persistant virtual world (video game rather then tabletop) with your friends and lots of other people and play whatever "story" you wanted to all the game was going to do was provide the environment and the ruleset.

Go buy a pen and paper RPG, gather up a group of players then have them go out and "kill 10 rats" then have them do it again and see how well your game goes...it will suck because MMO lost sight of what RPG's are...Adventures & story, not progression chores.

RPGs are about grinding? That is one of the most dense comments I've ever read. RPGs are abouts stories. MMOs are not. They are indeed about grinding. Don't insult great RPGs by comparing them to these horribly flawed MMOs(leveling for the sake of leveling).

Yes, in some RPGs you are given the option to grind, in case your tactics aren't up to par you can just use brute force. Most recent RPGs there has been a finite number of mobs.

NWN, NWN2, Fallout 3, Oblivion are all about stories. Not grinding to gain levels. If you play to grind levels in those games I don't consider you an RPG player. I guess you just like torture.