This piece is right up there on my list of articles I classify as 'RIDICULOUS'.  For a 'professional journalist' that writes for a website that focuses on the MMO genre, to write that 'leveling in MMOs is too time-consuming' is like a columnist for an exercise mag writing that 'lifting heavy weights to get in better shape is too time-consuming'.

While I can appreciate the attempt to make a point that his preference for game based on skills grinding would be something he'd like to see more in games, I have to ask;  Why are you playing a 'game' that you view more as a 'chore' because it has time-consuming leveling?  And further more why would you infer that because YOU find the quest-level-repeat method of advancement boring, that it is the same for even a fraction of the MMO population?  Believe it or not, despite a lot of posters on this site; most people are not stupid enough to invest time and a monthly sub in a game they don't have fun playing.

Maybe you have more fun at the end-game, raiding and the like, but you knew what was entailed with getting to the 'fun' so why are you complaing?  Another analogy comes to mind.  So since you don't have more than a couple hours to play a game, do you find the time to watch a movie from time to time?  Or do you want to 'maximize' movie time too, and just watch them at fast-foward speed?

If you're playing a leveling-based game, you've got no right to complain when you get wistful for a bygone age of skill-based gaming.  No one is forcing you to play the quest-level-repeat game.  UO is still out there.  Why not play it and be a happier gamer, instead of a whiner?

I was a huge fan of the skill/experince system that SWG used to have.  I still think it was perfect.  Gaining experience in an area by using items/abilities in that area, then spending that experience on specific skills that you want under that area's heading ... brilliant!

Too bad SOE removed it.

Are there any other MMO's out there that curretly use this model?

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

This drive to level and the viewing of quests as nothing more than xp is a large part of what is wrong with the MMO community today. People like you are a part of the problem. It is views like this that result in games like Freerealms, where lore and story have been completely disposed of.

I read through the text of my quests every day. I take the time to enjoy the plot lines and back story. More important, I could not care less about how fast I level. I play for fun, and to enjoy the journey, not race to the end.

I agree with this viewpoint and for that reason find the original article very disappointing / depressing.

I just don't understand some people (like the writer) who play MMOs. Look if you're not enjoying it please leave and play something else.

I think this whole genre needs splitting into two groups; those who want virtual worlds, and those that just want group instances. We're as far apart as classical music and pop.

And this is the reason Sanya Weathers wrote this article

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3076/Take-This-Column-To-NPC-X.html

 The only thing I do not understand is why OP's opinion about his real life issues was even published here as a serious article...

Originally posted by Mirandel

And this is the reason Sanya Weathers wrote this article

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3076/Take-This-Column-To-NPC-X.html

 The only thing I do not understand is why OP's opinion about his real life issues was even published here as a serious article...

Perhaps because the number of Purists who are obsessed with the same old quest treadmill is fading out?  You have never felt like a mouse on a treadmill, eternally chasing a new and shiny bit of digital cheese? Its not so much that I mind the time(though that is more limited these days) as I'm totally bored with the usual presentation methods of quests. If you think about it, there is a limited number of possible quest types. No matter how creative Dev's are, until they come up with a better incentive for players, they are going to just keep rehashing the same tired old schemes.

Option One) Play only Games that start you off at end level.

Option Two) Buy a character off of E-bay.

Option Three) Play Tic- Tac- Toe online. (http://www.prongo.com/tictac/)

Option Four) Play a game for ages 5-12.

Option Five) Keep playing WOW.

Option Six) Don't play online games.

Option Seven) Pick up a new hobby.

If all you are looking for a way to fill-in two hours of your day you should try:

Watching a movie

Walking your dog

Reading a book

But one thing is for sure stop asking for MORE Dumb, F2P, WOW clone, Browser junk.

Originally posted by LordDmaster

Option One) Play only Games that start you off at end level.

Option Two) Buy a character off of E-bay.

Option Three) Play Tic- Tac- Toe online. (http://www.prongo.com/tictac/)

Option Four) Play a game for ages 5-12.

Option Five) Keep playing WOW.

Option Six) Don't play online games.

Option Seven) Pick up a new hobby.

If all you are looking for a way to fill-in two hours of your day you should try:

Watching a movie

Walking your dog

Reading a book

But one thing is for sure stop asking for MORE Dumb, F2P, WOW clone, Browser junk.

Why? There is obviously a market for it, or there wouldn't be so many companies(and more all the time) producing them. Why do you get to dictate who produces what?

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by LordDmaster

Option One) Play only Games that start you off at end level.

Option Two) Buy a character off of E-bay.

Option Three) Play Tic- Tac- Toe online. (http://www.prongo.com/tictac/)

Option Four) Play a game for ages 5-12.

Option Five) Keep playing WOW.

Option Six) Don't play online games.

Option Seven) Pick up a new hobby.

If all you are looking for a way to fill-in two hours of your day you should try:

Watching a movie

Walking your dog

Reading a book

But one thing is for sure stop asking for MORE Dumb, F2P, WOW clone, Browser junk.

 

Why? There is obviously a market for it, or there wouldn't be so many companies(and more all the time) producing them. Why do you get to dictate who produces what?

I'm sorry your right. It is not my place to tell someone else to stop doing something that works for them.

I'm sorry Devs, keep builing games for those type of players.

There you go Wraithone the devs. will keep building those game that you and so many people love to play.

Originally posted by Onitora

This piece is right up there on my list of articles I classify as 'RIDICULOUS'.  For a 'professional journalist' that writes for a website that focuses on the MMO genre, to write that 'leveling in MMOs is too time-consuming' is like a columnist for an exercise mag writing that 'lifting heavy weights to get in better shape is too time-consuming'.

While I can appreciate the attempt to make a point that his preference for game based on skills grinding would be something he'd like to see more in games, I have to ask;  Why are you playing a 'game' that you view more as a 'chore' because it has time-consuming leveling?  And further more why would you infer that because YOU find the quest-level-repeat method of advancement boring, that it is the same for even a fraction of the MMO population?  Believe it or not, despite a lot of posters on this site; most people are not stupid enough to invest time and a monthly sub in a game they don't have fun playing.

Maybe you have more fun at the end-game, raiding and the like, but you knew what was entailed with getting to the 'fun' so why are you complaing?  Another analogy comes to mind.  So since you don't have more than a couple hours to play a game, do you find the time to watch a movie from time to time?  Or do you want to 'maximize' movie time too, and just watch them at fast-foward speed?

If you're playing a leveling-based game, you've got no right to complain when you get wistful for a bygone age of skill-based gaming.  No one is forcing you to play the quest-level-repeat game.  UO is still out there.  Why not play it and be a happier gamer, instead of a whiner?

Maybe you should try reading his article first.  Most of you did not or if you did you completely misunderstood what he was trying to say.  Just jump on the band wagon and look like fools in the end like the rest of the posters in this thread.

The point he was trying to make is the leveling grind is ridiculous.  Invented by the Smedley and his minions when they designed EQ.  There was no leveling grind in UO.  There is no leveling grind in Eve. 

And don't give me that idiotic crap about going back to UO.  UO self destructed when EA tried to EQ it. 

Fortunately there are some skill based games coming down the pike, hopefully some of these developers will have gotten it right.

I was recently in the Aion Beta and finally hit the wall this weekend. After watching a bar fill from left to right for hours and having to pull/kill for more hours, I had had it... no more. My time is important to me, and nothing wastes that time more than having to do meaningless crap that has nothing to do with the end-game, except to work my way to the promised land. It took me 1.5 years to get to the 50th Level in DAoC (2002-2004) and will not do that again... it was a waste of my time... period.

Now, that does not mean I do not like a good story or work to earn something... I do. But to read three pages of dialogue only to have it tell me I needed to kill x amount of critters is not a story. I do not mind quests as long as it pertains to something... like training to use a new skill, learning to use the game interface, gathering resources to build something, or developing the storyline. However, most quests are nothing but doing something that just gets you more XP's so one does not have to grind as much... a timesink. I want a gaming system where both player and character skills matter... but where all get to play in the endgame as soon as practical. Level games tend to make massively powerful players that most players cannot even damage... which serves what purpose other than to feed the ego of a few people.

Also, within guilds/societies/clans, this can be a point of contention. I have seen the hardcore types pushing other players relantlessly to level up to get to the end game, and challenging their loyalty to the player group if they did not move quickly enough. In open PvP games like Aion and Dark Ages of Camelot, most battles are won by numbers and levels, not much by individual skill. Thus, the hardcore players need numbers and strong characters to compete in PvP... thus, they will pressure others to get their butts in gear and get up there in PvP, NOW!!! When I read here that casual players come and go and it is only the hardcore players that keep the MMOG's going, I also see that most casual players left because they were treated like second class citizens and hounded by the hardcore players. Think about it... how many players get a thrill out of being some hardcore player's plaything or abuse toy? Casual players leave because there is nothing fulfilling here for them because they are always behind the power curve. Hardcore players end up playing alone because they want all the powerful characters that no one can hit... so why would anyone want to play with them except other hardcore players?

When I logoff of a game, I have one purpose... to feel good about myself. Being someone else's plaything does not make me feel good about myself, especially if there is no practical way to change the situation.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by Onitora

This piece is right up there on my list of articles I classify as 'RIDICULOUS'.  For a 'professional journalist' that writes for a website that focuses on the MMO genre, to write that 'leveling in MMOs is too time-consuming' is like a columnist for an exercise mag writing that 'lifting heavy weights to get in better shape is too time-consuming'.

While I can appreciate the attempt to make a point that his preference for game based on skills grinding would be something he'd like to see more in games, I have to ask;  Why are you playing a 'game' that you view more as a 'chore' because it has time-consuming leveling?  And further more why would you infer that because YOU find the quest-level-repeat method of advancement boring, that it is the same for even a fraction of the MMO population?  Believe it or not, despite a lot of posters on this site; most people are not stupid enough to invest time and a monthly sub in a game they don't have fun playing.

Maybe you have more fun at the end-game, raiding and the like, but you knew what was entailed with getting to the 'fun' so why are you complaing?  Another analogy comes to mind.  So since you don't have more than a couple hours to play a game, do you find the time to watch a movie from time to time?  Or do you want to 'maximize' movie time too, and just watch them at fast-foward speed?

If you're playing a leveling-based game, you've got no right to complain when you get wistful for a bygone age of skill-based gaming.  No one is forcing you to play the quest-level-repeat game.  UO is still out there.  Why not play it and be a happier gamer, instead of a whiner?

Maybe you should try reading his article first.  Most of you did not or if you did you completely misunderstood what he was trying to say.  Just jump on the band wagon and look like fools in the end like the rest of the posters in this thread.

The point he was trying to make is the leveling grind is ridiculous.  Invented by the Smedley and his minions when they designed EQ.  There was no leveling grind in UO.  There is no leveling grind in Eve. 

And don't give me that idiotic crap about going back to UO.  UO self destructed when EA tried to EQ it. 

Fortunately there are some skill based games coming down the pike, hopefully some of these developers will have gotten it right.

No you look like a fool.  EvE has a lvl grind, its call skill points and it requires time, nothing else.  EvE = Time invested.  UO had a lvl grind, they called them skills and you increased them which is a another word for leveled them.      Please think before you post next time.

Ever MMO ever made has a grind, PERIOD.  MMORPG = GRIND. PERIOD.   Always have and always will, the difference is the older style games allowed the player to pick what and when they wanted to grind.  The new games force you to follow the same path everytime.  EQ has a fun grind, the journey to max level was fun, it was challenging, it was not a rush to max level, it was a journey to max level.    EQ is the game I still play because I can choose to grind or do something else or quest or do missions.  The point is I the player picks which grind I want to do, it is not forced on me, it is not picked for me.  I pick what I want to do during the play session.

This is why I hate quest hub games, they force you to follow the quest hubs to level the quickest.   I hate pointless quests, quest should mean something in the world your playing in.

Imo the article is pretty short sighted, with obvious old-school PvE bias.

1) Why should a mmo have leveling at all? By leveling I mean the vertical progression through levels which stratifies the population and compartmentalizes content like in single player RPGs. It is simply not appropriate for a social online environment. Guild Wars was a fantastic success without any leveling at all - the vast majority of their character advancement is lateral, meaning you open up new skills which do not give you raw "power" but rather enable you to adapt to particular content better. - You don't get more power, you get more options and choices to demonstrate skillful play rather than flat "+1" over something. For me it is a complete meh when I kill somebody or something just because my level is higher than before. That's no skill, that's no satisfaction that I really accomplished something - its just plain meh, I succeded just because the game decided I should get my cookie now.

In that sense even UO is vertical advancement since your skills are numerical and going only up. Guild Wars character advancement scheme is imo the closest anyone ever came to what could be a proper mmo approach to character advancement.

2) There is no mention of PvP leveling. In WAR, the game I'm currently playing, I'm making a special point of not doing one single classical PvE quest. 90% of my xp comes either from open or instanced PvP while the remaining 10% is from PvE Public Quests I occasionally do to get some rare bit of equipment or maybe help my faction flip a zone.

For me the classic questing grind is completely dead. I'll never play a game that uses this system of advancement because it is imo completely inappropriate to the genre and medium and I wonder how I could have put up with it before. I tried Aion and had to suppress gagging when I picked up my 20th "kill something" or "listen to a npc sob story" quest - never again, never. Maybe I could have put up with it if there were no xp blackmail attached to it, if that was for example a cool PvE quest chain to unlock a new interesting skill or maybe a piece of gear that would unlock some other content... however this forced questing to get raw xp so you can eventually get to the "proper" game is just bleh - it was lame and droll 5 years ago and now it's simply embarassing.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

No you look like a fool.  EvE has a lvl grind, its call skill points and it requires time, nothing else.  EvE = Time invested.  UO had a lvl grind, they called them skills and you increased them which is a another word for leveled them.      Please think before you post next time.

Ever MMO ever made has a grind, PERIOD.  MMORPG = GRIND. PERIOD.   Always have and always will, the difference is the older style games allowed the player to pick what and when they wanted to grind.  The new games force you to follow the same path everytime.  EQ has a fun grind, the journey to max level was fun, it was challenging, it was not a rush to max level, it was a journey to max level.    EQ is the game I still play because I can choose to grind or do something else or quest or do missions.  The point is I the player picks which grind I want to do, it is not forced on me, it is not picked for me.  I pick what I want to do during the play session.

This is why I hate quest hub games, they force you to follow the quest hubs to level the quickest.   I hate pointless quests, quest should mean something in the world your playing in.

I disagree. EvE Online allows one to play the game and get to the end game almost from the beginning. The skill system is not a playtime grind. I can go out and do whatever I want and still train. I do not have to sit in a crafting shop and watch a bar fill from left to right, rolling the dice, and hope I level... that is a personal timesink... a waste of my personal time. In EVE, I get to do what I want to do, not what some meaningless quest tells me to do... just to get experience to get to the end game. Yes, there may be some grinds of sorts in EVE... like gaining reputation for some NPC Corps through missions. But these missions are not required to play the end game... just go out there and play the damn end game. This is what I think the author is refering to. I hate to say it, but sometimes, by the time I get to the end game in these level games, I am so sick and tired of the damn game that I could care less about the end game anymore.

Another way to view it is that if one needs to grind to gain experience for skills and get loot, why not have the option to do that by playing the end game? If I am going to grind, then let me grind doing what I enjoy and the purpose of buying the game to begin with... the end game. The idea that I have to play the game for weeks or even months to get to the end game is not something I want to do.

Even though it is not an MMOG, look at something like Call of Duty Multiplayer. One starts playing the real game immediately... up there with the big guys. Player experience plays a big factor, and new people tend to die more because of that, but they still get to play the end game. New players still gain experience that unlocks weapons and bragging rights... but playing the real game. Translating this type of design into an MMOG would not be that hard.

I loved Tabula Rasa's fort seiges with tons of NPC's crashing the gates... and getting medals for successfully assaulting or defending a fort... it gave meaning and purpose in the game. This, in a way, was an end game PvP thing of taking territory and having to hold it... just using NPC's rather than relying on other players to cause the action. In most level based games, I kill all the badguys to take territory, only to see them come back in place a few minutes later. I won the mission, but they are still there. I feel like a rat on a treadmill... just cranking away, no purpose, just wasting my time.

I understand this is all a matter of personal preference and perspective, and that everyone has their own likes and dislikes. However, games like Guild Wars, that allowed people to immediately get into PvP at a max level, or to work their way through missions as an option is what I like. Do not restricted me into a level grind I do not want to be in... like most MMOG's out there.

Let's clear up one thing. A skill system could take as long or longer then a leveling system. And a leveling system could take as little or less time as a skill system. It's all in how much is required. If you have to use a sword 1000 times to get it up 1 point, but you only need 100 xp to level. Then one system becomes faster and the other slower, it's not a solution to anything. In fact it just makes macroing easier since you pick a skill and just macro that one skill while your gone until it is uber, repeat for the next day. I know how easy that is because I used to do it in UO all the time.

You still have AC1 and UO up and running, so if it's what you want go play them. Constantly I see people say "I used to like how UO or AC did it and now I have nothing to play." Go play them since they're still running. And the reply is the same "Well the graphics are older I want new graphics." Then it is simple, you're a game snob and you can't have everything. Guess you are destined to be unhappy because you are being ridiculous. Either play the games you say you like, or don't complain about there not being games like those.

If you truly have limited time, then you probably shouldn't play MMORPGs. They DO require time and they SHOULD require time. Truly casual games exist, and some of them are online with lots of people to socialize with, so if you only have 2 hours a week to play a game, then stick to those. But don't try to ruin MMOs for all the people who do like challenge, do like to have to work to get their guys up, and do like to have to understand the game and figure out what to do.

I despise people who use quest tracker programs, what is the point of playing a game where you get a quest and then a plugin says go here, now go there, pick that up, and go back to start. How is that even fun? You are just following a bullet list and there's no challenge or excitement.

They are making some ridiculous easy mode MMOs now, and the truth is people who want those games should go play them. And those who enjoy a real game that is a challenge and does involve using their brain, should play the good MMOs. But what shouldn't happen is the easy mode players asking for all MMOs to be that lame.

For instance I've always liked AC, I still play AC. But as new players trickle in here and there they start saying things like "WoW has this can we have this? Feature X would really make the game easier and take less time. I don't like to have to travel can I have a spell that will take me to any spot I want?" and it is really irritating. Especially because then as a few people keep asking for things like that eventually some get put in, and the true players leave making the population smaller and the game all around worse. If you want easy, then play easy. But do not try to get games that aren't meant to be easy, made easy so that you can play them.

Personally, I would like to see games eliminate the whole "end game" nonsense and turn the focus back to actually enjoying the process of reaching level cap.

I am not anti-raid, but when raiding in a game becomes a part-time to full-time job, there is little to no fun factor in it for me and once the fun factor is gone, I see no point in continuing.

Perfect example of what I mean:  last night, in WoW, I was talking to a guildie and commented on how fast he has leveled.  His response?  "I want to hurry up and make level cap so I can go on raids with the other guildies."

The focus on raiding and end-game content has not only eliminated the fun factor of raiding, but it is eliminating the fun factor in actually playing the game.  Players zip through content like wildfire because there is no incentive not to!  There's no incentive or reason to just take your time and enjoy the game.  Developers and gamers have put so much focus on raiding and end-game content that no one cares about anything else.

I wonder what would happen if developers took the focus off the raids/dungeons/etc and put it back on enjoying playing the game...

Originally posted by Nifa

Personally, I would like to see games eliminate the whole "end game" nonsense and turn the focus back to actually enjoying the process of reaching level cap.

I am not anti-raid, but when raiding in a game becomes a part-time to full-time job, there is little to no fun factor in it for me and once the fun factor is gone, I see no point in continuing.

Perfect example of what I mean:  last night, in WoW, I was talking to a guildie and commented on how fast he has leveled.  His response?  "I want to hurry up and make level cap so I can go on raids with the other guildies."

The focus on raiding and end-game content has not only eliminated the fun factor of raiding, but it is eliminating the fun factor in actually playing the game.  Players zip through content like wildfire because there is no incentive not to!  There's no incentive or reason to just take your time and enjoy the game.  Developers and gamers have put so much focus on raiding and end-game content that no one cares about anything else.

I wonder what would happen if developers took the focus off the raids/dungeons/etc and put it back on enjoying playing the game...

Well actually "the game begins at end game" so it is your friend playing the game properly while you are not. I'm not trying to start a flame war here but can you see how ridiculous all this is? Today's leveling mmos are deeply schizophrenic - you have to games in one - the leveling game and the max level game.... and the most time spent in them is in the max level. The leveling bit is completely redundant. Imo all players should start at max level and proceed from there. In other words, dispense with levels already and concentrate on the meat of the game - lateral advancement at a single "level" where everybody can group and hang out together. Guild Wars is a perfect example of a game with no leveling which is still more than capable of providing a structured story and long time immersion.

It's the level system and style of these games.  They are shallow single player games that are made shallow because the sheer length of them.  Then there is the even more shallow end game grind to keep people hooked.  Add in a few thousand people doing the same thing and voila everyone loves it.

Look at a game like WoW.  How far ahead can you predict what your character will be doing and how they will be doing it?  I know if I make a Warlock at level 1 I will level through a linear tier of zones, doing the same quests with different wording and monsters to kill, and I will be doing it with a pet and a few spells.  The numbers will increase but the time to kill mobs won't.  I may mix in some BG's but BG's are a double edged sword.  Sure they provide some quick entertainment but the more you play them the less fun they are.  Back to the linear progression through zones.  End game!  Repeat same instanced raids, instanced bg's, and do it utilizing like 2% of the game world. 

That sounds like the least amount of fun i've ever had in a video game.  I want a game where I don't even know what i'm going to do 1 day out not 3 months and the entire life of my character.  Freedom is greatly lacking in these games and argue about it all you want, but if you keep playing them you will want freedom eventually when you realize how ridiculously shallow they are.

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go race to the end of the novel I'm reading, because I want to get to the last page.

*LATER*

Gah, I'm so BORED. That novel needed more CONTENT!

Originally posted by markoraos

Well actually "the game begins at end game" so it is your friend playing the game properly while you are not. I'm not trying to start a flame war here but can you see how ridiculous all this is? Today's leveling mmos are deeply schizophrenic - you have to games in one - the leveling game and the max level game.... and the most time spent in them is in the max level. The leveling bit is completely redundant. Imo all players should start at max level and proceed from there. In other words, dispense with levels already and concentrate on the meat of the game - lateral advancement at a single "level" where everybody can group and hang out together. Guild Wars is a perfect example of a game with no leveling which is still more than capable of providing a structured story and long time immersion.

And that is exactly my point:  why should a game "begin" at the end?  What is wrong with making the entirety of the game enjoyable?

At the risk of igniting flames unnecessarily...who are you to tell me how to play a game?  Who is anyone that they have the right to determine that my gameplay shouldn't even start until level cap?

In my opinion, the attitude of "the game begins at endgame and if you're not powerleveling to get there, you are playing the game wrong" is one of the most arrogant, self-centered, and utterly ridiculous attitudes in gaming today.  It's also, in my opinion, what is wrong with the vast majority of games on the market.

>>

I have seen developers explain that players must run across the continent to complete a quest, because it would keep them playing longer.

<<

I have to ask, wtf kind of crack are they on to think that making me run a character across a continent = me PLAYING? Is this like a fun trip, full of hijinks and lols? I'ma guessing NOT.

This is EXACTLY what p*sses players off about game devs and their companies.  What they are calling "playing" is nothing more than being logged in and moving my character.

Q: If you are in charge of planning fun activities for people, should you not have a fairly firm, clear understanding of the whole FUN thing?

A: Not if you're an MMO developer today. No, that's not really important at all, not compared to showing your boss on a spreadsheet how long you're keeping people online.  Hence my saving 15 bucks a month for the past year, while I wait for the merger of Hollywood and game companies to provide me with something to play that's FUN. At least, I hope it will be...