After reading the latest Swedish PC gamer for agust 2009. I stumbled across an artical about The old Republic. Sadly on page 3 Gordon Walton gets quoted for saying this, "We have to ignore the Hardcore players in Star wars the old Rebublic", refering to the players who will ignore the story and mini max their charecters to the TOP. This is one of the most stupidest things I'v heard, he really drops the ball on this one. Expect no working endgame in The old republic.

What Walton fails to realize is that 50% or more of the markets players are going to try and mini max thier charecters. When they find that once the story ends the game has little to offer them. The forum moaning and whining will commence, and the end result of that we have seen before just look at AOC and WAR. No working endgame or a buggy one leads to cancelled subs and mass exodus. Onse TOR gets a bad rep its doomed and no amount of after release fixes will save them.......

Now this is only speculation, they might have a fantastic endgame. But saying you will not suport the hardcore often means the game is lacking in some way. Might be the balance, might be missing content after hitting max level or underdeveloped crafting. Whatever the case is Bioware is setting themself up for a mayor disaster if they ignore the Hardcore players. The reasons for this are simple

1. Hardcore players push games to the limit, they sniff out bugs, imbalances and they show the way for the masses, doing server firsts etc
2. Also the Human psyche with its pack mentality needs people that spearhead, being the best at something. Look at sports if we all could do everything we would not have athletes breaking records and pushing the boundries. This is also true about science, where would we be today without those people??? And take the game Poker for example millions of people would not be playing it if it wernt for the Pro players that show that the game actually involves some skill.
3. Good players are needed to make a game successful, if its just filled with average joes it will not be a thrilling experience.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

After reading the latest Swedish PC gamer for agust 2009. I stumbled across an artical about The old Republic. Sadly on page 3 Gordon Walton gets quoted for saying this, "We have to ignore the Hardcore players in Star wars the old Rebublic", refering to the players who will ignore the story and mini max their charecters to the TOP. This is one of the most stupidest things I'v heard, he really drops the ball on this one. Expect no working endgame in The old republic.

What Walton fails to realize is that 50% or more of the markets players are going to try and mini max thier charecters. When they find that once the story ends the game has little to offer them. The forum moaning and whining will commence, and the end result of that we have seen before just look at AOC and WAR. No working endgame or a buggy one leads to cancelled subs and mass exodus. Onse TOR gets a bad rep its doomed and no amount of after release fixes will save them.......

Now this is only speculation, they might have a fantastic endgame. But saying you will not suport the hardcore often means the game is lacking in some way. Might be the balance, might be missing content after hitting max level or underdeveloped crafting. Whatever the case is Bioware is setting themself up for a mayor disaster if they ignore the Hardcore players. The reasons for this are simple

1. Hardcore players push games to the limit, they sniff out bugs, imbalances and they show the way for the masses, doing server firsts etc
2. Also the Human psyche with its pack mentality needs people that spearhead, being the best at something. Look at sports if we all could do everything we would not have athletes breaking records and pushing the boundries. This is also true about science, where would we be today without those people??? And take the game Poker for example millions of people would not be playing it if it wernt for the Pro players that show that the game actually involves some skill.
3. Good players are needed to make a game successful, if its just filled with average joes it will not be a thrilling experience.

 

Mind posting a link to the true article?  Not that I don't believe you, but many times in this forum quotes are taken out of context or only part of it is recited.

Dont know if you speak swedish my friend but its in Issue 152 agust 2009 of the swedish version of PC gamer www.pcgamer.se/tidningar/pcgamer/152 here is the link to the latest issue...

PS: the september issue of the english version might hold the same artical so you might pick that one up www.pcgamer.com/

I seem to remember that comment being stated before so I'll take the OP at his word. If a hardcore player is someone who ignores story to get to the end game then I would certainly suggest them to skip this game. There will be an end game, but if the path to it is another boring grind then most players won't last long enough to reach it.

I imagine the "Story" aspect will be like bottle neck for those looking to achieve max level fast. I'm pretty sure this is gonna be an ultra casual game till you reach the top level, where then I'm sure you can find another grind of some kind.

How many players in WoW are level 80 all ready?  How many players have multiple 80's?   Does this guy really believe in such things as a casual MMORPG gamers?    If you play more than 2hrs a day you are not casual.   I consider a casual MMORPG player as someone that plays between 2-6 hrs a week tops.    That is casual.    Players that play 6+ hrs a week, that is not casual and I would say that those kind of players make up the bulk of WoW's player base and most MMORPG's.   

Originally posted by Zlayer77

After reading the latest Swedish PC gamer for agust 2009. I stumbled across an artical about The old Republic. Sadly on page 3 Gordon Walton gets quoted for saying this, "We have to ignore the Hardcore players in Star wars the old Rebublic", refering to the players who will ignore the story and mini max their charecters to the TOP. This is one of the most stupidest things I'v heard, he really drops the ball on this one. Expect no working endgame in The old republic.

What Walton fails to realize is that 50% or more of the markets players are going to try and mini max thier charecters. When they find that once the story ends the game has little to offer them. The forum moaning and whining will commence, and the end result of that we have seen before just look at AOC and WAR. No working endgame or a buggy one leads to cancelled subs and mass exodus. Onse TOR gets a bad rep its doomed and no amount of after release fixes will save them.......

Now this is only speculation, they might have a fantastic endgame. But saying you will not suport the hardcore often means the game is lacking in some way. Might be the balance, might be missing content after hitting max level or underdeveloped crafting. Whatever the case is Bioware is setting themself up for a mayor disaster if they ignore the Hardcore players. The reasons for this are simple

1. Hardcore players push games to the limit, they sniff out bugs, imbalances and they show the way for the masses, doing server firsts etc
2. Also the Human psyche with its pack mentality needs people that spearhead, being the best at something. Look at sports if we all could do everything we would not have athletes breaking records and pushing the boundries. This is also true about science, where would we be today without those people??? And take the game Poker for example millions of people would not be playing it if it wernt for the Pro players that show that the game actually involves some skill.
3. Good players are needed to make a game successful, if its just filled with average joes it will not be a thrilling experience.

I think you slightly miss the point.

Firstly, they have said there will be end-game elements like raiding and PvP.

Secondly, you are describing how most MMOs are today. They are more about the destination rather than a journey. Bioware's most games are about journey. Hardcore players are in this manner going to be ignored. I am looking forward to this aspect in MMO.

I also like min-maxing, but to be honest, MMOs could use a little innovation how they handle the journey. Both pen and paper along with  PC RPGs have a lot features that could benefit MMORPGs. The biggest MMO titles, that are DikuMUD-derived, unfortunately ignore many traditional RPG elements.

This will be, by all information so far, a quite different MMORPG. They have even hinted that it will not have a traditional subscription model.

Hardcore also do not translate to "good players", "skilled" or "pro". That is just a fallacy.

Originally posted by Teala

How many players in WoW are level 80 all ready?  How many players have multiple 80's?   Does this guy really believe in such things as a casual MMORPG gamers?    If you play more than 2hrs a day you are not casual.   I consider a casual MMORPG player as someone that plays between 2-6 hrs a week tops.    That is casual.    Players that play 6+ hrs a week, that is not casual and I would say that those kind of players make up the bulk of WoW's player base and most MMORPG's.   

I tend to believe for most folks it fluctuates. They may play heavy for 6 months, then slowly back off or leave the game, then start up again in another few months. It really is a rarity that you will see those 15 hour 7 days a week players doing that for 3 years straight. They are out there, and I think that’s what he means by hardcore.

Nothing pleased me more than to hear SWTOR was NOT being developed for the hardcore MMO player. That was the point where I genuinely started to take an interest in this game. I could also envisage posts like this one, where hardcore players were indignant that an MMO was not being made for them.

LOTRO was meant to be about story and the journey. It has been an incredible disappointment with the shift from SoA to MoM as they replaced an excellent end-game philosophy (aka The Rift) with an arbitrary end-game instance grind and have greatly slowed their pace of opening up new areas in Middle Earth. Instead of exploring Middle Earth and following the story of the Ring we've ended up spending the last year underground surrounded by glowing pink aliens and generic fantasy.

So, I for one hope that SWTOR succeeds where LOTRO has failed... that they hold on to their emphasis on story, and refuse to cater to the more traditional MMO player who *needs* these god awful and arbitrary grinds to keep them playing.

And if that means a financial arrangement different to the subscription model, at this point I'm becoming open minded.

This doesn't make any sense at all. The game is going to fail because Mr. Walton states "We have to ignore the Hardcore players in Star wars the old Rebublic"?
 

Even if so, do you know what he means with "hardcore player"? I mean, the way you describe them, I'm seeing a smart player, not necessarilly a hardcore one.

You can already see that SW:TOR is going to be a Pve focused game and right there makes it a niche.

Targetting a casual market is fine but at the same time you need enough content to keep hardcores happy.

How will the pvp be? will it be like Lotro with a pvp mini-game?

Personally if it doesn't have a really nice pvp aspect this game is going to have sub 1 million numbers.

Originally posted by JGMIII

You can already see that SW:TOR is going to be a Pve focused game and right there makes it a niche.

Personally if it doesn't have a really nice pvp aspect this game is going to have sub 1 million numbers.

 

It has already been stated many times that there will be a PvP focus in this game as well. Bioware is attempting to have something for everyone in this game.

And as far as PvE focused games equalling niche, that is just simply not true. Look at World of Warcraft. That game is probably the most PvE-oriented game of all and it is the most un-niche game on the market.

Originally posted by Anubisan

Originally posted by JGMIII

You can already see that SW:TOR is going to be a Pve focused game and right there makes it a niche.

Personally if it doesn't have a really nice pvp aspect this game is going to have sub 1 million numbers.

 

 

It has already been stated many times that there will be a PvP focus in this game as well. Bioware is attempting to have something for everyone in this game.

And as far as PvE focused games equalling niche, that is just simply not true. Look at World of Warcraft. That game is probably the most PvE-oriented game of all and it is the most un-niche game on the market.

Thats like saying Lotro isn't Niche.

When you only focus on one aspect of a game it reaches a smaller amount of players.

Thanks for the Info on TOR, im glad that its going to have real pvp. If they do make a jack of all trades game It probably will be able to compete with WoW.

Also in the beginning WoW was more pve focused but now its been pushed into this Esport so its a jack of all trades.

All of the actual information released on SWtoR has made it clear that it will just be an unenjoyable terrible game. Not surprisingly as more little bits of information come out, this becomes even more clear.

This game is going to surpass WAR in number of subs lost in the first 2 months.

WOW, the more I hear about stuff like this the more I look forward to this game.

So I guess it does go to show that what does not appeal to one does not necessarily mean it is awfull for all.

 Don't confuse hardcore with the term dedicated. A dedicated player will work to help a game blossom.  They will nag the devs as nauseum to fix that graphic bug. They will demand the game story stay within the lore.

Hardcore gamers (IHO) are those who seek to "win". Race to the max level cap first.  Farm mobs for endless hours because the internetz says a purple drop comes from it.  They go crazy if they suffer exp debt or a group wipes. 

A dedicated gamer is one I would rather team with and enjoy gaming with. A hardcore gamer is a lifestyle I long ago abandoned.

Originally posted by JGMIII

You can already see that SW:TOR is going to be a Pve focused game and right there makes it a niche.

Targetting a casual market is fine but at the same time you need enough content to keep hardcores happy.

How will the pvp be? will it be like Lotro with a pvp mini-game?

Personally if it doesn't have a really nice pvp aspect this game is going to have sub 1 million numbers.

 

Most hardcore players only want endgame, not the middle stuff. They said they wiill have end game, they said they will have PvP, down time activities like crafting and social aspects. I think what Gordon means is that they aren't building a system you can min-max through in 3 weeks to get to the end game. If that sucks for some people then so be it, buy a fully leveled toon off ebay in 8 months. Who knows? maybe they will have RMT were you can buy PvP toons set at certain level.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

All of the actual information released on SWtoR has made it clear that it will just be an unenjoyable terrible game. Not surprisingly as more little bits of information come out, this becomes even more clear.

 

This game is going to surpass WAR in number of subs lost in the first 2 months.

Quite a hefty prediction there.  I think I'm going to have to disagree though.  Just because it isn't "hardcore" doesn't mean that it is niche. I think the game will cater to all, especially those who enjoy the journey. 

To the OP:

Hardcore players are not necessarily the ones who point out bugs.  They are the ones who find the exploits.  Casual players who actually take time to play every facet of the game are generally the ones who keep the devs on their toes when it comes to bugs and such.  Hardcore players find ways to level faster and thus find ways to do so which the devs never intended (exploits).

christ, god forbid an online ROLE PLAYING GAME has a story to it....The entire genre has been polluted and destroyed by grinders and "hardcore" gamers that have no flipping clue what the RPG stands for in MMORPG. Gods speed to SWTOR, hopefully they can bring back the RPG in MMORPG. 

Originally posted by joe2119

christ, god forbid an online ROLE PLAYING GAME has a story to it....The entire genre has been polluted and destroyed by grinders and "hardcore" gamers that have no flipping clue what the RPG stands for in MMORPG. Gods speed to SWTOR, hopefully they can bring back the RPG in MMORPG. 

You're getting it twisted.

Its the hardcore gamers that give a shit about story and lore.

We do the research, we read the lore and wierd shit off the websites, shit we run the fansites.

Its the casuals that play an hour a day and donlt know shit. Even when I was playing WoW there wasn;t one Hardcore player that I knew that didnt atleast know some of the lore, yet most of the casuals just played the game as there first mmo.

There's nothing wrong with being casual but don;t act like hardcore players are the disease of the genre.

sure some rush to endgame fast but these guys also have multiple alts and they do find enjoyment in the leveling game also.

Fuck dude, I've been playing MMOs when they were actually RPGs not freaking single player games with co-op dungeons like todays mmos.