Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Manchine

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Manchine

Originally posted by SwampRob

Does any MMO do both well?

The only one that does is WAR.  =)

 

You mean WAR does neither well.

 

No WAR does both well.  Right now its the best Fantasy MMO out there right now.

 

No, its not.  WOW's better, and I'm no fan of WOW.

WAR is a hollow shell of what it could/should have been.

IMO.

edit: Sigh, did it again, got lured off topic, apologies.

I don't know which way CO leans, but I suspect its more of a PVE oriented game so expect the PVP to be somewhat deficient.

 

Its all good I am not the type of person that says my opinion is LAW.  =)  I let people have different opinions unless they are just plain haters.  =)

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Originally posted by lornphoenix

Originally posted by Manchine

No WAR does both well. Right now its the best Fantasy MMO out there right now.

You're kidding right. WAR PvE is completely lacking, shallow, and utterly boring after tier 1.
It's PvP was ok, outside some class balance issues (fucking Bright Wizards can suck my ass)
Too bad PvP didn't really happen outside scenarios, because it wasn't worth it.

Fighting over keeps was pointless and End Game is a joke.

It was lack of fun and enjoyable PVE that really killed the game for me.

edit:
@ Zyllos

I was wondering why they didn't do something that myself.

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PvE was FAR from lacking.  Sorry it was great.   PvP is pointless to a point.  Just like in any other game.  I won the keep for 2 hours they will take it so what.  As long as its fun thats all that matters.  Which it is.  I don't know how times I have helped defend the main city.  I have helped fight at the main city once.

WAR is still better then WoW, IMO.  =)

We just have to wait and see how well PvP will be in CO.  I did hear a rumor that some of the PvP will be like Scenerios in WAR.  At any place in CO you can jump to the scenerio and fight then when its done you go back to the spot you were at.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by Lamarak

We all know that in PVP, especially in a open system, in time a "flavor of the month" will  appear.  once a  class or power combo is dominating, then there will be a call to nerf it, and then the vicious circle begins.

My guess is that this won't be a problem for CO.

CoH suffers terribly from this problem, because unlike other mmos they don't just have a dozen set classes to balance against each other. With all the various combinations of primary and secondary powersets... well I can't actually be bothered figuring it out - but there are LOTS.

CoH also suffers from the fact that the game wasn't designed with PvP in mind - it was added after the fact.

Balance issues should be much less of an issue in CO because:

• players can (with very few limits) pick up any powers they like up to the total of 14 so anyone who really thinks a particular power is just too good, can pick it up themselves
• powers don't come in "sets" like CoH so every single power can be balanced against each other (relatively easy to assess), rather than trying to balance all of the powers in one set against all of the powers in every other set (more complicated)
• PvP was planned

How in your mind does that make it MORE balanced.  This is actually tougher to balance. If you've got 100 skills all with different effects, tiers and strengths, as well as however many other powers used to buff or hold or what have you, and then you give players the ability to pick whatever ones of those powers they want and put them into a single build, it very much doesn't seem to conclude that everything will be balanced. 

This will very much be a game where players who want to PvP will pay close attention to the FoTM (as much as I hate the phrase) and continuously exploit whatever power or combination that is.

This is how.

Trying to judge the effectiveness of an entire set of powers - each with different effects, cooldowns, power costs, ranges etc. against an entire other set of powers, is much more complicated than lining up the individual powers. It's a matter of mathematical simplicity.

A = Z is much easier to assess than A + B + C + D + E + F + G + H + I = Z + Y + X + W + V + U + T + S + R, especially since the latter equation might not just be additive (given different degrees of synergy between individual powers in a set).

There's still some level of qualitative measurement - because you need to compare powers on different dimensions and some of them more easily quantifiable (eg. dps, defence) than others (control) - but balancing individual powers should be easier. Also keep in mind that for most sets (except for power armor) they've also eliminated cooldowns - so that removes an entire factor from the equation.

I don't doubt that there'll be a cookie-cutter effect when it comes to PvP'ers. I can see the equivalent build of a "tank mage" being extremely popular in the arena. But the OP isn't a pvp'er and is worried about the detrimental effects of cries of "nerf that power" on pve - in a game where if you think a power is overpowered you can just pick it up yourself.

CO is inevitably going to be compared to CoH - in which pvp balancing ruined the game for many pve'ers. But on the whole I think CO's game design is more robust on this point.

This is how.

Trying to judge the effectiveness of an entire set of powers - each with different effects, cooldowns, power costs, ranges etc. against an entire other set of powers, is much more complicated than lining up the individual powers. It's a matter of mathematical simplicity.

A = Z is much easier to assess than A + B + C + D + E + F + G + H + I = Z + Y + X + W + V + U + T + S + R, especially since the latter equation might not just be additive (given different degrees of synergy between individual powers in a set).

There's still some level of qualitative measurement - because you need to compare powers on different dimensions and some of them more easily quantifiable (eg. dps, defence) than others (control) - but balancing individual powers should be easier. Also keep in mind that for most sets (except for power armor) they've also eliminated cooldowns - so that removes an entire factor from the equation.

I don't doubt that there'll be a cookie-cutter effect when it comes to PvP'ers. I can see the equivalent build of a "tank mage" being extremely popular in the arena. But the OP isn't a pvp'er and is worried about the detrimental effects of cries of "nerf that power" on pve - in a game where if you think a power is overpowered you can just pick it up yourself.

CO is inevitably going to be compared to CoH - in which pvp balancing ruined the game for many pve'ers. But on the whole I think CO's game design is more robust on this point.

 

Heh, not really.  Instead of trying to balance an individual power within a small sphere of companion powers.  Your trying to balance each power while keeping in mind how that power meshes with every combination of powers available in the game.  That is incredibly more difficult.

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Originally posted by comerb

This is how.

Trying to judge the effectiveness of an entire set of powers - each with different effects, cooldowns, power costs, ranges etc. against an entire other set of powers, is much more complicated than lining up the individual powers. It's a matter of mathematical simplicity.

A = Z is much easier to assess than A + B + C + D + E + F + G + H + I = Z + Y + X + W + V + U + T + S + R, especially since the latter equation might not just be additive (given different degrees of synergy between individual powers in a set).

There's still some level of qualitative measurement - because you need to compare powers on different dimensions and some of them more easily quantifiable (eg. dps, defence) than others (control) - but balancing individual powers should be easier. Also keep in mind that for most sets (except for power armor) they've also eliminated cooldowns - so that removes an entire factor from the equation.

I don't doubt that there'll be a cookie-cutter effect when it comes to PvP'ers. I can see the equivalent build of a "tank mage" being extremely popular in the arena. But the OP isn't a pvp'er and is worried about the detrimental effects of cries of "nerf that power" on pve - in a game where if you think a power is overpowered you can just pick it up yourself.

CO is inevitably going to be compared to CoH - in which pvp balancing ruined the game for many pve'ers. But on the whole I think CO's game design is more robust on this point.

 

 

Heh, not really.  Instead of trying to balance an individual power within a small sphere of companion powers.  Your trying to balance each power while keeping in mind how that power meshes with every combination of powers available in the game.  That is incredibly more difficult.

This man makes a solid point. Green, your idea would work if it was A=B=C=D , but instead it will be more A>B B<C C=F F<Z because as they've said, there are tiers and ranks to powers. In the end, will it effect PvE?  Of course it will... they won't have separate rules, no game should have separate rules for PvP and PvE... will it RUIN the game? Well to the OP I guess  you'd have to ask yourself, what makes good PvE?  Also remember.... this is primarily a PvE game, so if anything... it will probably be the other way around

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Originally posted by Lamarak

First off, im not against PVP. I dont do it, but understand its an option people want in the games of today. But i just get so frustrated when a power or ability is changed due to a part of the game i have no desire to explore.

We all know that in PVP, especially in a open system, in time a "flavor of the month" will  appear.  once a  class or power combo is dominating, then there will be a call to nerf it, and then the vicious circle begins.

I just hope they  can change powers that affect PVP without it affecting the PVE aspect of the game and vica versa.

Again, this is no rant against PVP itself, I respect people that enjoy it, i just dont want PVE gameplay changed because a min/max player has figured out a pvp build that dominates then we see a plethora of these classes.

Heres hoping they can do a good job on both fronts.

Ruin? I doubt it.  Negatively affect it?  Probably.  Works both ways though.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by comerb

This is how.

Trying to judge the effectiveness of an entire set of powers - each with different effects, cooldowns, power costs, ranges etc. against an entire other set of powers, is much more complicated than lining up the individual powers. It's a matter of mathematical simplicity.

A = Z is much easier to assess than A + B + C + D + E + F + G + H + I = Z + Y + X + W + V + U + T + S + R, especially since the latter equation might not just be additive (given different degrees of synergy between individual powers in a set).

There's still some level of qualitative measurement - because you need to compare powers on different dimensions and some of them more easily quantifiable (eg. dps, defence) than others (control) - but balancing individual powers should be easier. Also keep in mind that for most sets (except for power armor) they've also eliminated cooldowns - so that removes an entire factor from the equation.

I don't doubt that there'll be a cookie-cutter effect when it comes to PvP'ers. I can see the equivalent build of a "tank mage" being extremely popular in the arena. But the OP isn't a pvp'er and is worried about the detrimental effects of cries of "nerf that power" on pve - in a game where if you think a power is overpowered you can just pick it up yourself.

CO is inevitably going to be compared to CoH - in which pvp balancing ruined the game for many pve'ers. But on the whole I think CO's game design is more robust on this point.

Heh, not really.  Instead of trying to balance an individual power within a small sphere of companion powers.  Your trying to balance each power while keeping in mind how that power meshes with every combination of powers available in the game.  That is incredibly more difficult.

This man makes a solid point. Green, your idea would work if it was A=B=C=D , but instead it will be more A>B B<C C=F F<Z because as they've said, there are tiers and ranks to powers. In the end, will it effect PvE?  Of course it will... they won't have separate rules, no game should have separate rules for PvP and PvE... will it RUIN the game? Well to the OP I guess  you'd have to ask yourself, what makes good PvE?  Also remember.... this is primarily a PvE game, so if anything... it will probably be the other way around

Not really.

a) Individual powers don't need to be assessed in combination with every other power in the game. Even if particular powers work well in tandem with certain other powers, players have near complete freedom when it comes to power choice. Developers of a game who allow this degree of freedom can legitimately stand back and say "you chose your powerset - so you have to take some responsibility". Eg. a player can choose entirely support type powers and then have trouble killing stuff or competing one-on-one in pvp. That's not the developer's fault - the player owns the power and responsibility here.

All they need to do is establish a scale that takes into account eg. dps, defence, control, and energy cost - and get all powers roughly equal on that scale.

b) As for tiers and ranks, each additional rank adds about 20% to a power's effectiveness. Since all players have an equal number of rank points to allocate and the maximum is rank 3, this isn't an issue. If powers are all measured against the scale at rank 1 and tweaked to be balanced, then they will be equally balanced at rank 2 or 3.

Players also all have equal opportunity when it comes to access to higher tier powers. And while I don't have stats for them, I would imagine that tier 3 powers cost more energy than tier 2 and tier 1 powers so they could be balanced in that fashion.

c) In any particular cases where certain powers work too well together, they could implement negative synergies to counteract them. Eg. if you look at City of Villains, players can attack while stealthed, but if they do then the stealth effect is weakened - and the one stealth power that isn't (Superior Invisibility) has a much higher endurance cost to maintain.

__________________

Of course all of this is in theory. I'm not saying CO is or will be free of these balance problems. But theoretically it should be easier to avoid the problem that the OP refers to than it is in eg. CoH.

Originally posted by Zyllos

I am not sure why developers do not do this. Why not have two sets of rules for PvP and PvE?

For each skill, there is a PvP description and a PvE description. You can modify the PvP descriptions without effecting the PvE descriptions.

In an example, lets say a power has a root for 2.0s - (1.0s * (Nature Resistance of Target / 50.0)) and deals 100 damage per second. The PvE description will say exactly what is above. The PvP description will be modified because the 100 damage per second is too much along with the root so the PvP description will say:

2.0s - (1.0s * (Nature Resistance of Target / 50.0)) and deals 50 damage per second.

Now, what we have accomplished is that a power will act the same way in PvE as it does in PvP, except now the PvP nerfs/buffs will not effect the PvE game.

Problem solved...not sure why devs will not do this with their games if they contain PvP along with PvE.

I've been wondering the same thing. Maybe it's because devs think that the constant nerfs/buffs keep the game "fresh"???

Just a few comment .

It's not just PvP than can destroy characters. Example in CoH controllers where destroyed by solo players complains. What did make controllers more damage dealers while weaken they control abilities. Every playing style, is it group PvE, Solo PvE or PvP or GvG or Raiding will affect the characters powers and balance. Of course these situation is based alot to what kind of player really is. Example change power to improve PvP doesn't  seem bad thign for PvP players view point. Same solo players likes when they ability solo will become better, while it can affect group or raid playing.

In my opinion, if game hasn't good PvP, why even have it at all. It will just cause problems. You want good PvE them make PvE game. You want good PvP then make PvP game. You want both to be mediorate, then design them for both. Have some small arena or duel system in mostly PvE game doesn't do good to game or players. If players get bored quicly to PvE or they have competive nature with PvP side, they should not even play allmost pure PvE games.

Originally posted by Manchine

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Manchine

Originally posted by SwampRob

Does any MMO do both well?

The only one that does is WAR.  =)

 

You mean WAR does neither well.

 

No WAR does both well.  Right now its the best Fantasy MMO out there right now.

I'm sorry but WAR sucks.  It's pointless after about a week of play.  Lowbie zones are utterly pointless.   PQ's are impossible to do unless you do the easy one which is boring.  The game was lackluster at best and sucks utterly at worst.  It tends towards the latter and i'm amazed it's still open.  Give it a few months and it will be gone.

You can avoid PvP ruining PvE by having more options available for PvP than a room where five guys run out into a circle, look at five other guys, and whoever calls out names in Vent faster wins. 

I think Champion's Online is in a unique position to avoid having PvP ruin the PvE by adding additional PvP only modifiers to not particular powers, but to entire roles, thus giving access to them to every player.  

Are defenses too powerful?  Give players in Offensive role a PvP only % Defense bypass.  Are healers being killed too quickly?  Give players in Support role a  PvP only Status/Debuff resist.

Things like this would make sure that the inevitable PvE nerfs don't get blamed on PvP and vice versa.