Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Trenchgun

 

-Your idea of what constitutes the definition realm vs realm is one dimensional, focused on semantics rather than substance. RvR as a higher concept of players dividing themselves into regions, sides, and warring exclusively against others for the gain of their whole alliance is something you can't grasp. Functionally darkfall has a dynamic player driven RvR system, as I originally said. You've got your dick so far up the ass of the idea of racial dev enforced PvP that you are unable to see it is unnecessary and irrelevent in darkfall, as we've got something far better.

-You're wrong. Devs involve themselves but are unable to truly effect any lasting change. Static RvR games like DAoC and RF Online are always a failure at some level because one side becomes the underdog and stays that way.

-It's also a periphery irrelevent issue because your assertion is that darkfall can't be balanced without dev interaction, and that is patently stupid. Darkfall is, in fact, more balanced because the alliance system is very flexible and dynamic able to adapt and respond to changes in the balance of power rapidly

-You fail to realize again that describing the AvA system as a dynamic player driven RvR is essentially true. Putting it in such terms helps people understand what it's like to be a part of giant region vs region warfare in darkfall, that it's not just about clan vs clan.

 

"Realm versus Realm (RvR) is a type of Player versus Player gameplay in Massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPG) where the player base is divided over multiple preset realms that fight each other over game assets. This differs from normal Player versus Player combat in that Realm versus Realm usually depicts a game that is centralized around this combat, as opposed to a game where sporadic Player versus Player combat occurs. [1][2]

This concept is also referred to as Race versus Race, Nation versus Nation, or Faction versus Faction depending on the specific implementation in the game under discussion. Contrast with "Guild versus Guild" or GvG games, such as Shadowbane or Age of Conan, in which players organize themselves into factions of their own creation and design rather than realms which are prebuilt by the game developers."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realm_versus_Realm

 

Heh... You've already proven your point with Trench. You're going based on the established definition of RvR as it's been present in previous MMOs. Trench is using his own home-grown definition and applying it to DF; really no different from what other rabid fans here, and even Tasos himself (calling a patch an expansion, etc), do as well.

It's not the first time a rabid DF fan has misused or abused a term to spin DF as something more than it is, nor will it be the last.

 

Yes Trench and many of the rabid defenders are actually redefining every term by looking at DF.  What is sandbox?  Whatever DF has is sandbox, what DF does not have is not sandbox.  Same for RvR.  RvR is exactly what DF is, by definition.

Its nuts for them to say that SWG is not sandbox while DF is.  Its insane to say DF is more RvR than DAoC.  But I suppose, every form of argument is possible for DF when it comes to desperate rescues.

It is time to put down childish things and move on to grown up games...

LOL, down with DF

Peace

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by WSIMike

I'm sure if I go through most of the posters post history ill see tons of DF hate.

Also to the OP its not RvR but AvA/GvG or just FFA pvp.

And yes this game forum is filled with negative bullshit tyvm and I can read anythread i want and point out how you all are complaining about a game that doesnt even matter in the mmo market due to virtually no subs.

Yes... you are free to complain about posts that you are in no way forced to read, much less respond to. Likewise, others are free to point out how ridiculous it is to do  so.

Need I point out the irony of you complaining about people complaining about a game with virtually no subs? Certainly matters enough to you, don't it? :) And again, thre's no "complaining" happening between Trench and Ghost, which is what I specifically responded to and you replied to in kind. They are having a debate on what RvR is. Debate =/= complaining.

But hey... don't let me get in the way of whatever it is you're getting out of your little "crusade for understanding" here. By all means, have at it.

 LOL! I just came to this forum for some info and walked into a shit storm.

I was hoping by now all this DF bullshit would have died down. I know ppl hate Av and tasos but seriously is this game really that hot of a discussion being near dead?

Hell, even WAR and AoC flames died out quicker than DFs have.

Maybe the DF fans bring it onto themselves, I dont know tbh. But it's extremely hard to get an answer out of anyone with every troll and flamer tossing in thier two cents.

 

Anyway it doesn;t matter Someone gave me a link. thanks.

 

 

See, you complained and you got your answer. I guess complaining paid off for you. Now let the rest of us go back in discussing (not complaining) the issue at hand. Thank you for your contribution to this thread.

Bah, it is time to put the POS game away.

Peace

DAoC has RVR, DF does not.

I called it Player Dictated RvR. There's no other way to define player dictated RvR other than a system of free form alliances that results in solidified realms.

If you were able to comprehend the concept of what it means to have a realm fighting another realm, instead of getting mired in semantics and arbitrary trappings like race forced alliances, you would wouldn't be having trouble right now.

Trench.........

You are MAKING UP TERMS THAT ARE NOT NEEDED, NOR RECOGNIZED.

Darkfall is an AvA game. alliance vs alliance.  I guess technically a single guild with enough members can hold major land masses against entire alliances, but its still an AvA game.

The RvR you so desperately want to staple onto DF can ONLY HAPPEN  if their are true rewards and penelties for having either pure realm guikds or mixed realm guilds.

As your game stands, their is ZERO reason other than personal taste to not have all races in every guild. Their are NO REALMS in darkfall, only Alliance controlled territory.

EVERYONE here is fine with you saying "hey come play this game its a great alliance vs alliance game!"  because as far as an alliance vs alliance game, really only EvE is bigger and better known.

Just admit you used the wrong term, stop trying to navigate around 'semantics' to make your term usage seem correct. Its not, in the games current state it never will be.

I follow (and play inthe beta of) Mortal. I would using your definitions be able to say Mortal is an RvR game... but its not. It will be an AvA game, and im okay with that unless sometime soon along the development tree i see something that will have positive and negative conotations where race plays a large part in which realm i am to fight for.

the game you champion is not an RvR game.......  considering you are basically standing alone on your stance... what do you think the probability is that you are wrong.

You invent terms and other people are mired in Semantics? Kinda contradictory.

It's not RvR. You may call it player-driven RvR, or super special RvR. Just don't believe people will swallow your definition without any question.

DFO has Alliance x Alliance and GvG. That's it. It not bad, mind you. Just the nature of the fights that happen in-game.

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by WSIMike

I'm sure if I go through most of the posters post history ill see tons of DF hate.

Also to the OP its not RvR but AvA/GvG or just FFA pvp.

And yes this game forum is filled with negative bullshit tyvm and I can read anythread i want and point out how you all are complaining about a game that doesnt even matter in the mmo market due to virtually no subs.

Yes... you are free to complain about posts that you are in no way forced to read, much less respond to. Likewise, others are free to point out how ridiculous it is to do  so.

Need I point out the irony of you complaining about people complaining about a game with virtually no subs? Certainly matters enough to you, don't it? :) And again, thre's no "complaining" happening between Trench and Ghost, which is what I specifically responded to and you replied to in kind. They are having a debate on what RvR is. Debate =/= complaining.

But hey... don't let me get in the way of whatever it is you're getting out of your little "crusade for understanding" here. By all means, have at it.

 LOL! I just came to this forum for some info and walked into a shit storm.

I was hoping by now all this DF bullshit would have died down. I know ppl hate Av and tasos but seriously is this game really that hot of a discussion being near dead?

Why does it matter so much to you? Why is what others talk about of such concern to you? Why do you care?

Hell, even WAR and AoC flames died out quicker than DFs have.

Actually no they haven't... I read their forums as well and there's still plenty of heat going around with those games.... not that it's relevant to these forums.

Maybe the DF fans bring it onto themselves, I dont know tbh. But it's extremely hard to get an answer out of anyone with every troll and flamer tossing in thier two cents.

What are you talking about?

You started your little "shit storm" in this thread with the following post:

Why do you guys give a shit about a game with less than 10k subs?

Its an Indy game with two near empty servers.

shit we have F2p games like RoM and Atlantica that have more Paying subs than DF does.

Stop wiping the mule already and find a new game to hate.

You guys hated on Lotro, You hated on AoC and WAR and now DF? jesus go play WoW or whatever other game you play.

I don;t even play DF but all this random hate gets annoying.

You didn't even ask about housing in that post... You later complain about reading through 20 threads of DF hate, before you can post a thread about housing. This raises several questions...

If they bother you, why did you read them?
How is it anyone else's problem but your own that you did?
What does that have to do with you asking a question completely unrelated to this thread?
Why are you bitching about it in this thread?

You create this whole issue for yourself in this thread, and then start bitching about it because you wanted to ask about housing... Seriously, wtf?
 

 

Originally posted by Trenchgun

I called it Player Dictated RvR. There's no other way to define player dictated RvR other than a system of free form alliances that results in solidified realms.

If you were able to comprehend the concept of what it means to have a realm fighting another realm, instead of getting mired in semantics and arbitrary trappings like race forced alliances, you would wouldn't be having trouble right now.

Umm... you do realize that using your definition you could say that DarkFall had everything and anything?

DarkFall has player dictated vendors!  (A player standing in town calling himself a vendor)  Tada!

DarkFall has player dictated guards!  (A player standing in town calling himself a guard)  Tada!

DarkFall has player dictated role-playing! (Players standing around... role-playing) Tada!

DarkFall has player dictated Jeopardy!  (Players standing around... playing jeopardy) Tada!

DarkFall has player dictated... heh... hopefully you can see this can go on forever.

Any social game can have the same thing said about it.  Players of the game can use their imagination to invent whaterver they want to call what they are doing as something else.

It doesn't really change the fact that there are established conventions for what words mean.  Sure you can get together with some friends and using your imagination create all sorts of cool sounding words for what you are doing.  In the end though... it still just boils down to trying to call one thing something else. 

Nah... you should leave the PR spin of DarkFall to Tasos.  He is quite a bit better at it than yourself.  

To expound on the RVR concept.

In a true RVR game, you cannot attack members of your own realm outside of a controlled duel.

Normally in most, you cannot speak in game with members of the opposing realm.

Those two points should make it pretty easy to see where DF really lies.

Originally posted by Trenchgun

I called it Player Dictated RvR. There's no other way to define player dictated RvR other than a system of free form alliances that results in solidified realms.

If you were able to comprehend the concept of what it means to have a realm fighting another realm, instead of getting mired in semantics and arbitrary trappings like race forced alliances, you would wouldn't be having trouble right now.

Its not RvR because players from 2 or more races can join in a guild and play side by side against other guilds from the same or not race. So this is Guild (or clan if you want) vs Guild or Alliance vs Alliance is also acceptable I suppose. I think Guild vs Guild is more accurate because Alliance is a group of guilds.

Originally posted by jimmyman99

Originally posted by Trenchgun

I called it Player Dictated RvR. There's no other way to define player dictated RvR other than a system of free form alliances that results in solidified realms.

If you were able to comprehend the concept of what it means to have a realm fighting another realm, instead of getting mired in semantics and arbitrary trappings like race forced alliances, you would wouldn't be having trouble right now.

Its not RvR because players from 2 or more races can join in a guild and play side by side against other guilds from the same or not race. So this is Guild (or clan if you want) vs Guild or Alliance vs Alliance is also acceptable I suppose. I think Guild vs Guild is more accurate because Alliance is a group of guilds.

individual guilds dont hold much all by themselves in most any of these types of games.

just looking at the map you can see the major alliances all only give a bit of land to each member guild.

so alliance vs alliance is very accurate.

Originally posted by jimmyman99

Originally posted by Trenchgun

I called it Player Dictated RvR. There's no other way to define player dictated RvR other than a system of free form alliances that results in solidified realms.

If you were able to comprehend the concept of what it means to have a realm fighting another realm, instead of getting mired in semantics and arbitrary trappings like race forced alliances, you would wouldn't be having trouble right now.

Its not RvR because players from 2 or more races can join in a guild and play side by side against other guilds from the same or not race. So this is Guild (or clan if you want) vs Guild or Alliance vs Alliance is also acceptable I suppose. I think Guild vs Guild is more accurate because Alliance is a group of guilds.

That's like saying PvP is defined as a game where combat only takes place within the confines of a development dictated arena - Just because that's how most games implement PvP doesn't mean it IS PvP. That's an example of getting semantics of design choices mixed up with higher concepts such as the nature of a game being competitive player vs player.

Darkfall is functionally a game with player dictated RvR, where players define what the terms of what it means to be a realm - Thus the definition. You fail to understand this concept because you continue to insist that only developers are allowed to define what a realm is, but it's not true. By definition a game that were player dictated RvR would have a system whereby the players to get control every aspect of what a realm is and what it's boundries are, what it's rules and objectives are - Which is exactly what darkfall is.

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Originally posted by jimmyman99

Originally posted by Trenchgun

I called it Player Dictated RvR. There's no other way to define player dictated RvR other than a system of free form alliances that results in solidified realms.

If you were able to comprehend the concept of what it means to have a realm fighting another realm, instead of getting mired in semantics and arbitrary trappings like race forced alliances, you would wouldn't be having trouble right now.

Its not RvR because players from 2 or more races can join in a guild and play side by side against other guilds from the same or not race. So this is Guild (or clan if you want) vs Guild or Alliance vs Alliance is also acceptable I suppose. I think Guild vs Guild is more accurate because Alliance is a group of guilds.

 

That's like saying PvP is defined as a game where combat only takes place within the confines of a development dictated arena - Just because that's how most games implement PvP doesn't mean it IS PvP. That's an example of getting semantics of design choices mixed up with higher concepts such as the nature of a game being competitive player vs player.

Darkfall is functionally a game with player dictated RvR, where players define what the terms of what it means to be a realm - Thus the definition. You fail to understand this concept because you continue to insist that only developers are allowed to define what a realm is, but it's not true. By definition a game that were player dictated RvR would have a system whereby the players to get control every aspect of what a realm is and what it's boundries are, what it's rules and objectives are - Which is exactly what darkfall is.

 

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Originally posted by jimmyman99

Originally posted by Trenchgun

I called it Player Dictated RvR. There's no other way to define player dictated RvR other than a system of free form alliances that results in solidified realms.

If you were able to comprehend the concept of what it means to have a realm fighting another realm, instead of getting mired in semantics and arbitrary trappings like race forced alliances, you would wouldn't be having trouble right now.

Its not RvR because players from 2 or more races can join in a guild and play side by side against other guilds from the same or not race. So this is Guild (or clan if you want) vs Guild or Alliance vs Alliance is also acceptable I suppose. I think Guild vs Guild is more accurate because Alliance is a group of guilds.

 

That's like saying PvP is defined as a game where combat only takes place within the confines of a development dictated arena - Just because that's how most games implement PvP doesn't mean it IS PvP. That's an example of getting semantics of design choices mixed up with higher concepts such as the nature of a game being competitive player vs player.

Darkfall is functionally a game with player dictated RvR, where players define what the terms of what it means to be a realm - Thus the definition. You fail to understand this concept because you continue to insist that only developers are allowed to define what a realm is, but it's not true. By definition a game that were player dictated RvR would have a system whereby the players to get control every aspect of what a realm is and what it's boundries are, what it's rules and objectives are - Which is exactly what darkfall is.

 

You fail to understand that you do not define what "realm" is, it has been defined already, Here is the LINK. So, do players define those "realms"? Do they set up kingdom borders? Does the world change once the owner of the city changes? NO

The realm is static and defined by the developers. The only thing that is dynamic is the ownership of the city/hamlet and the layout of it. Everything else is static and no player can change anything. When people engage in PvP, they do not engage as "realm" members (as in Dark Elfs vs Dwarves) but as guild/alliance members.

Originally posted by Trenchgun

@grayghost
 

-You have no clue what you're talking about. The consequence of killing alliance members is that you get kicked, and thus become KoS for an entire region.  The benefit of being in an alliance is that you can go about your business in an entire region without having to worry about the locals killing you, your only concern is for incursions and raids by neighbors into your territory. This is all player driven and dynamic, as it should be.

-Wrong. Devs don't step in to force people to play one side versus another in a static game. DAoC was chronically filled with imbalanced sides. In Darkfall it's actually more balanced because of the dynamic player driven system. Numbers are self correcting out of self preservation, if an alliance becomes to big or too much of a threat then they gain more enemies and former enemies will band together to defend themselvs. Players have no ability to dynamically adjust like this in a dev enforced system.

-You're still wrong, as I've seen with my own eyes a smaller but better organized alliance defeat a much larger one in sieges. You're also wrong to insist that numbers meaning something is only a factor in dynamic alliance games. You also fail to recognize that it is entirely within the power of the players to address any numbers imbalance through strategy and politics, that the only limitation is yourself.

-You are still trying to nitpick periphery issues instead of recognizing the central fact that calling it player dictated RvR is essentially an accurate description of what happens in darkfall.

-Again you're ignorantly trying to insist that RvR can only be defined by artificially dev dictated racial conflict, when in truth the real RvR is dynamic and is player driven; Something that is far superior to an artificial forced racial system. Something that most games aren't free enough to pull off even if they wanted to.

 

agreed 100%

also if anybody still thinks a large alliance owns a smaller organized alliance...go watch 300

it's all about tactics and strategy people

Originally posted by steamtank

Originally posted by jimmyman99

Originally posted by Trenchgun

I called it Player Dictated RvR. There's no other way to define player dictated RvR other than a system of free form alliances that results in solidified realms.

If you were able to comprehend the concept of what it means to have a realm fighting another realm, instead of getting mired in semantics and arbitrary trappings like race forced alliances, you would wouldn't be having trouble right now.

Its not RvR because players from 2 or more races can join in a guild and play side by side against other guilds from the same or not race. So this is Guild (or clan if you want) vs Guild or Alliance vs Alliance is also acceptable I suppose. I think Guild vs Guild is more accurate because Alliance is a group of guilds.

 

individual guilds dont hold much all by themselves in most any of these types of games.

 

just looking at the map you can see the major alliances all only give a bit of land to each member guild.

so alliance vs alliance is very accurate.

Alliance consists of guilds, guilds do not consist of alliances, therefore a guild is the smaller denominator. Alliances will not exist without guilds, guilds will exist without alliances. I prefer to use the smaller denominator here, but its a personal preference. Agree to disagree.

Originally posted by OoMpAlOmPaZ

Originally posted by Trenchgun

@grayghost
 

-You have no clue what you're talking about. The consequence of killing alliance members is that you get kicked, and thus become KoS for an entire region.  The benefit of being in an alliance is that you can go about your business in an entire region without having to worry about the locals killing you, your only concern is for incursions and raids by neighbors into your territory. This is all player driven and dynamic, as it should be.

-Wrong. Devs don't step in to force people to play one side versus another in a static game. DAoC was chronically filled with imbalanced sides. In Darkfall it's actually more balanced because of the dynamic player driven system. Numbers are self correcting out of self preservation, if an alliance becomes to big or too much of a threat then they gain more enemies and former enemies will band together to defend themselvs. Players have no ability to dynamically adjust like this in a dev enforced system.

-You're still wrong, as I've seen with my own eyes a smaller but better organized alliance defeat a much larger one in sieges. You're also wrong to insist that numbers meaning something is only a factor in dynamic alliance games. You also fail to recognize that it is entirely within the power of the players to address any numbers imbalance through strategy and politics, that the only limitation is yourself.

-You are still trying to nitpick periphery issues instead of recognizing the central fact that calling it player dictated RvR is essentially an accurate description of what happens in darkfall.

-Again you're ignorantly trying to insist that RvR can only be defined by artificially dev dictated racial conflict, when in truth the real RvR is dynamic and is player driven; Something that is far superior to an artificial forced racial system. Something that most games aren't free enough to pull off even if they wanted to.

 

 

agreed 100%

 

also if anybody still thinks a large alliance owns a smaller organized alliance...go watch 300

it's all about tactics and strategy people

Er you do realize that 300 was a total work of fiction and in general, 300 does not beat 15000, not even in most other fantasy settings?

Originally posted by vader999

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Originally posted by jimmyman99

Originally posted by Trenchgun

I called it Player Dictated RvR. There's no other way to define player dictated RvR other than a system of free form alliances that results in solidified realms.

If you were able to comprehend the concept of what it means to have a realm fighting another realm, instead of getting mired in semantics and arbitrary trappings like race forced alliances, you would wouldn't be having trouble right now.

Its not RvR because players from 2 or more races can join in a guild and play side by side against other guilds from the same or not race. So this is Guild (or clan if you want) vs Guild or Alliance vs Alliance is also acceptable I suppose. I think Guild vs Guild is more accurate because Alliance is a group of guilds.

 

That's like saying PvP is defined as a game where combat only takes place within the confines of a development dictated arena - Just because that's how most games implement PvP doesn't mean it IS PvP. That's an example of getting semantics of design choices mixed up with higher concepts such as the nature of a game being competitive player vs player.

Darkfall is functionally a game with player dictated RvR, where players define what the terms of what it means to be a realm - Thus the definition. You fail to understand this concept because you continue to insist that only developers are allowed to define what a realm is, but it's not true. By definition a game that were player dictated RvR would have a system whereby the players to get control every aspect of what a realm is and what it's boundries are, what it's rules and objectives are - Which is exactly what darkfall is.

 

Wait, so Eve and Shadowbane were really RvR games, but the players conspired to ensure they were always known as FFA PvP games focusing on Alliane/Guild v Alliance/Guild?

Or maybe you should just accept the term RvR is limited to games like DaoC with developer controlled factions so we can distinguish that mechanic from FFA PvP.

Exactly!

If you try to pigeon-hole DarkFall as a RvR game... then what distinguishes it from DaoC or WAR?

By definition if DarkFall is a FFA PvP MMO  (like EvE, or ShadowBane was)... then it is open to whatever forms of PvP that it's players can imagine and come up with. 

Sure there are players in DarkFall that can play their PvP in a RvR manner... that doesn't make DarkFall an RvR MMO though.

Just like when players play DarkFall in a PvE manner that it doesn't make it a PvE MMO.

DarkFall is a FFA PvP MMO. 

That is what it is...  I'm not sure why Trench thinks that is something to shy away from?

Don't try and pigeon-hole it into something it isn't.  Really, all it does when  a person tries to tell everyone that it is something that everyone knows it's not... is make a person look foolish.

Only one person seems to be confused... hmm... wonder who that could be?