This is about the subject of putting fictional prices on virtual goods and what is an morally acceptable price (if there is any) and how the free Mmo's cash shops are like a double edge sword. Where they depend on the peoples understanding of supporting the game and the other side where the company is wanting to make money off them almost to the point of scamming them.

I made a thread on the Atlantica Online forums about how they run their Item Mall recently.

The thread is here: 

http://atlantica.ndoorsgames.com/center/ATForum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=24632&start=1

if you want to read it. (There's a conclusion in the last page. DRAMA if you will)

It's pretty interesting how some people justify the obviously ridiculous prices that they are buying the cash shop items for. Maybe it's because they aren't cash shop users themselves and love seeing people burn their cash away (It is pretty funny). When some people post on the forums about spending 500+ dollars on virtual boxes and not getting what they want they get the obvious responses of  "haha, who spends that much on a free game" when if it's not for people like them the game would die sooner.

Some people justify their purchase of 20 gamble boxes for $200 or even more! They never get a mount or decoration from it,  but they feel like it's justified since they are in a way keeping the game alive. It's also pretty interesting how a person can spend a lot more money from playing a free game with a cash shop compared to a mmo that runs on monthly fees.

The thing is though it's a game designed to last a minimum of 1-3 years. It's a business meant to get as much cash as humanly possible from the people who actually like the game and probably move on to another game to do the same.

So what do you think about this subject. Is this an Issue that happens on a lot of games? Are there a lot of games that are meant to be short term cash cows? Games that only last for a short time and generate a good amount of cash before the publisher decides to cut the life support.

Share your thoughts.

That's my main problem with Atlantica - the nature of its item mall.

I know most people here seem to be against item malls of any kind. But I don't mind them. I'm not someone that spends 450 hours a month gaming, so I don't get a lot of value out of a monthly sub. I play 2-4 hours a day, maybe. 

I do mind item malls that are mostly based on gambling. They're taking a page from the collectible card industry, but even there, they at least guarantee you will receive so and so amount of rares and whatnot in a case.

In Atlantica, you don't get get an odds listing. You're gambling blindly.

And because there's one good item and the rest junk, it's hard to actually use the item mall as a short cut to get money in the game. Because that one good item is worth a huge amount of money, but the other stuff you probably get instead is almost worthless. Maybe 40-50 million tops.

(This is why I think gold sellers are so prominent in Atlantica, it simply makes more sense to buy gold from them, than trying to sell CS items for gold. Fraud issues aside)

‘F2P’ Cash cows are milked until they run dry and die.

Or you could play an organicaly raised subscription MMO and save the planet. Your choice. :)

 What upsets me is sometimes I run into a really good, really original and fun Free 2 play game once in a blue moon that is. For example Atlantica. yes I enjoy it, its an awesome game, very fun. If it was 15/mo Id be all over it. But its not . Its item mall, its F2P. When I see Free 2 play, the first thing that comes to mind is "Free to try until high levels where we basically force you to spend outrageous amounts of money to compete, or we demand your entire social life". So I avoid them. Yes It pains me to not play Atlantica after I know I love almost everything about it, but thats life, sometimes the best looking apple is in the tallest tree. 

People that spend this much money on a MMO are either addicted or they simply have too much money. I guess it's the first and that spooks me somehow.

It's especially funny that you wrote gamble boxes. If this goes on we can just hope that the law steps in and does something against those kind of schemes, before this gets out of hand.

I still remember the temptation that i got when i played Perfect world, joined a guild wanted to level faster so i buyed gamecoins for 50€ so i can get some Mana/HP/mount runes.After i spend most of the points and wanted to recharge, then it came to me like a thunderbolt, what the fuck i am doing here?

I actually played allot more F2P before but i never really had the urge to buy anything in the mall until Perfect World, it was a rather interesting experience. I will never again pay for a F2P game.

Originally posted by trancejeremy

That's my main problem with Atlantica - the nature of its item mall.

I know most people here seem to be against item malls of any kind. But I don't mind them. I'm not someone that spends 450 hours a month gaming, so I don't get a lot of value out of a monthly sub. I play 2-4 hours a day, maybe. 

I do mind item malls that are mostly based on gambling. They're taking a page from the collectible card industry, but even there, they at least guarantee you will receive so and so amount of rares and whatnot in a case.

In Atlantica, you don't get get an odds listing. You're gambling blindly.

And because there's one good item and the rest junk, it's hard to actually use the item mall as a short cut to get money in the game. Because that one good item is worth a huge amount of money, but the other stuff you probably get instead is almost worthless. Maybe 40-50 million tops.

(This is why I think gold sellers are so prominent in Atlantica, it simply makes more sense to buy gold from them, than trying to sell CS items for gold. Fraud issues aside)

 

 

This is exactly how I see the situation.

The collectible card comparison is a great observation. It's like opening a pack of cards. Where you want the shiniest Hollow card but you're guaranteed to get rubbish unless you feel the card pack lol.

The gold seller issue is how I feel as well.

Great insights and comments do share your opinions on this topic people.

I've come to the point in my life where I will not spend more money on a game other than the box price. Many FPS and RTS/TBS games have free multiplayer. RPGs should too. Guild Wars has it right. I'd be interested to see how well a multiplayer FPS does that tries to charge a monthly fee or use micro-transactions. I believe fans of that genre would be insulted as they are used to getting these services for free. I think MMO players need to adopt this mentality because paying fees for a game that you already paid for is a rip-off, I don't care how good the game is or how many players are online at one time. The only reason these companies charge post-purchase fees is because they can. Because fools will pay for it. Because it's what they are used to.

Originally posted by -aLpHa-

People that spend this much money on a MMO are either addicted or they simply have too much money. I guess it's the first and that spooks me somehow.

It's especially funny that you wrote gamble boxes. If this goes on we can just hope that the law steps in and does something against those kind of schemes, before this gets out of hand.

I still remember the temptation that i got when i played Perfect world, joined a guild wanted to level faster so i buyed gamecoins for 50€ so i can get some Mana/HP/mount runes.After i spend most of the points and wanted to recharge, then it came to me like a thunderbolt, what the fuck i am doing here?

I actually played allot more F2P before but i never really had the urge to buy anything in the mall until Perfect World, it was a rather interesting experience. I will never again pay for a F2P game.

Most people who spend insane amounts of cash on these F2P games justify by seeing it as a hobby and an endless source of entertainment. That's not a problem.

The problem starts when the company who runs the Item Mall sees that these people are willing to pay that much cash for their items. That they start fiddling with the rates of items to trick the item mall users into buying more which is a damn shame.

I agree with you on the scam comparison. It's a borderline scam at this point. The problem is the item mall users are consenting to being scammed. This is why I'm making such threads. The change starts with the people who buy them not from the company itself.

Yeah especially the gamble box example turned me off. Or they add items that help you allot in the level process, like the HP/Mana Runes in Perfect world (those runes replenish HP/MP when it goes under a certain %). Mix it with heavy downtimes+long grind periods and you got people who buy this shit.

Originally posted by Scot

‘F2P’ Cash cows are milked until they run dry and die.

Or you could play an organicaly raised subscription MMO and save the planet. Your choice. :)

*nods*

Hm, that MMO isn't made by Green Peace by any chance is it?

Originally posted by -aLpHa-

Yeah especially the gamble box example turned me off. Or they add items that help you allot in the level process, like the HP/Mana Runes in Perfect world (those runes replenish HP/MP when it goes under a certain %). Mix it with heavy downtimes+long grind periods and you got people who buy this shit.

That's very understandable. These F2P games always build their game with the cash shop in mind. For example they can design their game world overworld in a way that if you try to go from point A to point B in one sitting it will take you hours. Now that problem can be solved with these teleportation licenses for 15$! Bad example but you get the point.

In Atlantica Online they've designed the mobs with the patrol license in mind. So if you go click on a mob without checking what's in the mob through patrol license you have a good chance of encountering a hard ass mini boss + lots of other mobs. Pretty much either run or die for some. An annoyance that's artificially built.

It's a smart way to do things.

You often hear 'casual' players on these forums saying how RMT games are helpful to them. One of the posters here shows the other side though, at high levels you either spend your life on them or pay a fortune. Not so casual friendly unless you have a limitless pocket.

Originally posted by Scot

You often hear 'casual' players on these forums saying how RMT games are helpful to them. One of the posters here shows the other side though, at high levels you either spend your life on them or pay a fortune. Not so casual friendly unless you have a limitless pocket.

Yep, it's almost comparable to the drug dealer/drug addict relationship. Where the drug dealer gives you a free sample to hook you. So once the person turns into an addict the drug dealer starts charging. He knows the guy will do anything to get the drug so he can get away with it.

That's shady business for you.

Also TTT, to the top for discussion. Share your thoughts on this topic.

I dont like cash shop games for the same reason I never tried magic the gathering card game.  It seems like a scam to me.  In the card game you buy cards to make a good deck.  Whenever the company wants to make more money they just print new cards and you have to buy, or get weaker compared to those that do buy.  Virtual items in an mmo are no different than new cards in a card game, except now the company doesnt even have to pay for paper and ink to make money.

Originally posted by svann

I dont like cash shop games for the same reason I never tried magic the gathering card game.  It seems like a scam to me.  In the card game you buy cards to make a good deck.  Whenever the company wants to make more money they just print new cards and you have to buy, or get weaker compared to those that do buy.  Virtual items in an mmo are no different than new cards in a card game, except now the company doesnt even have to pay for paper and ink to make money.

Worse, in my opinion.

At least in the card trading games, once the publisher decides to print off a certain number of cards and package them for sale, the cards are in the world in the proportions they were printed.

But with this virtual "grab bag," the publisher can decide at a moment's notice to change or modify the drop rate at any time.  Frankly, they can change or modify the drop rate on a user-by-user basis.  For example, they can determine that "Joe Casual" will have 0% chance to get "super drop X," while "James 200-Man Clan Fanboi and Board Shill" gets a 20% chance to get "super drop X."  It's what someone said earlier, it is like you are gambling without any payout rate or odds.

If it were a slot machine in a casino, it would be an illegal slot machine.

One reason I detest Atlantica online is because of the gambling option.  While many of the others do have random boxes it is not pushed so heavily as in AO. 

Perfect World has very high prices on some highly desirable pets available in the cash shop, where you can easily spend $250  for just one pet by buying components in a random box.

Just seems sad people get hooked by these greedy games just to have an edge.

While I play the f2p games, I have never spent a dime in any of the cash shops and still have fun.

Originally posted by svann

I dont like cash shop games for the same reason I never tried magic the gathering card game.  It seems like a scam to me.  In the card game you buy cards to make a good deck.  Whenever the company wants to make more money they just print new cards and you have to buy, or get weaker compared to those that do buy.  Virtual items in an mmo are no different than new cards in a card game, except now the company doesnt even have to pay for paper and ink to make money.

We own a shop where 90% of our business is M:TG, and while I won't argue the point that it's a money-sucking scam (don't quote me on that to our customers), I do see one immediate, important difference between M:TG and item malls-- cards are a physical item that you can sell to get real cash back when you quit playing. You might only get the $0.01 per common bulk rate, but that turns your 1000 dust-collectors into $10 you can go buy pizza with. What you spend in an item mall is gone when you quit.

In response to other things said on this thread: I also have a problem with the "get a random item" gamble. I hate when really attractive items are available only from a random box or at ridiculous prices at the in-game marketplace. I'd rather just spend a little more to get the good thing and by-pass buying boxes of junk.

My husband and I have played various item mall games, and we've each set a monthly spending limit that we rarely actually reach. Basically, we dictate how much we're willing to spend, and don't let the game dictate how much we're going to spend. It works for us.

Originally posted by neschria 

We own a shop where 90% of our business is M:TG, and while I won't argue the point that it's a money-sucking scam (don't quote me on that to our customers), I do see one immediate, important difference between M:TG and item malls-- cards are a physical item that you can sell to get real cash back when you quit playing. You might only get the $0.01 per common bulk rate, but that turns your 1000 dust-collectors into $10 you can go buy pizza with. What you spend in an item mall is gone when you quit.

The other important difference is that in Magic, the 'value' of the cards is relative to what cards your opponent has.  So you can build your deck out of the most junky cards but if your opponent has the same card pool to work with, the ensuing games can be a ton of fun.  There is a phenomena I observed in my years of hanging out in card stores:  the kid who wants to play everyone only with their most broken deck, soon does not have anyone to play against.  Tournaments are one thing but in casual play the play groups will adjust the power level of their card pool to reach a nice median point. 

Also in Magic, few packs are complete junk.  If the rare is bad, you might get some good uncommons or a foil.  Push come to shove, you can just give the cards to that 10 year old kid who showed up in the store and has no clue what he is doing and will treasure them dearly. 

Plus Magic is not only a 'collectible' game but also a 'trading' game.  There will always be someone out there who will want a specific card for whatever reason and the stuff you do not like/want you can trade to someone who will actually want it. 

In real life the items that you have collected (houses, cars, art, money, etc.) can be given to family and friends when you die. They can keep or sell the items. The items will continie to exist until they are physically destroyed. The items that you collect in gaming environments will only exist until your character is deleted or the game is discontinued. Since the items are virtual they have little real life value. They can only be given to other players within the game. What justifies the work that is involved in collecting ingame items? Its the journey. Having fun playing the game and collecting the items. That is the only real valvue anything has within the game. If someone enjoys the things that they have bought through cash shops then it is worth the money that they have spent (as long as they can afford it).

i consider the additional tag "mature discussion" quite funny :)

but nevertheless here are my 5 cents *smiles*

the so called movement of a number of games towards "microtranscation" (the term "free to play" is just a blunt and stupid advertisement as most of us know) is  to a large extent originated by these games beeing in no way any match regarding overall production quality to ANY established subscription based game.

not are only cash shops BAD, but more important is the awful direction of game development -.> we gamers get less of a finished product while paying anything that should have been included for all the bucks we own:)