Originally posted by TheMaelstrom

Originally posted by johnspartan

l2play

just kidding.. well, actually no I am not.

You want to get into raiding and people won't invite you because you haven't raided.. well, there are a few things you can do to make sure a good raid leader can tell if you are a good player or not just from looking at you.

1. Gear selection - putting epics in every slot isn't everything, you have to make smart choices in stats. I've had two priests healing my raids with entirely different setups but both Holy spec. One was big on +spellpower and having a large mana pool, one was big on haste and regen. One would spam heal smaller heals efficiently other would drop the big bombs. Same class, pretty much the same spec, gear choices/selection made them totally different playstyles and players.

2. Effort = reward - Get a full set of epics from Heroics and crafting (even a PvP weapon is fine), get them gemmed intelligently, get them enchanted intelligently, and you'll get invited. Having a random hodge-podge of unenchanted and ungemed epic pieces from Heroics doesn't mean anything. If you want to get into raiding and don't have a guild to carry you, you need to put in the leg work to get EVERYTHING you possibly could/can out of non-raiding content first.

3. Research. Research. Research. - tell me you know what to do on each fight.

4. Heroic achievements - So you don't have any raid achievements, that's ok, have you done the hard-mode Heroic stuff? I'll take a player any day to a raid with all their Heroic dungeon achievements.

5. Impress me early - don't ask a ton of questions and have to have everything explained. silently sit there and do your job well and eventually I'll give you props and you'll be invited back next time.

 

This post is a great example of why I decided to quit WoW (nothing personal against you, johnspartan).

Here's the thing: I'm a very competent gamer w/ tons of experience and I don't just learn the class I play - I know it inside and out. And yet somehow there's always some stat-mongering group/guild/raid leader pissing and moaning that I "need" X in order to do Y.

Hey folks... remember the "G" in "MMORPG" stands for "Game".

Having purples and reading a strategy guide doesn't make you a good player. When will people realize this?

Your typical WoW head isnt he? LOL I sometimes wish they would stick these type of gamers on a server of their own away from the folks with a life. 

Originally posted by johnspartan

I'm not going to appologize for myself or for anyone else.

These are games, if you want to play you have to play by the rules.

More importantly, in these game worlds there are certain norms and values and expectations that are created within the game's culture.

This culture includes achievement linking and such as the OP mentions.

You have two options.

A) complain about it like a loser
B) figure out what you need to do to "fit in"

It's basic human social dynamics. And yes, they apply to online game worlds. They involve human interaction don't they?

Moral of the story:

Deal with it, or don't bitch.

Little children whine and complain and go on and on about what they can't have and can't do. Adults view these things as challenges to overcome.

Which are you?

Not sure where your from or how old you are, but you are now officially my hero....

I still don't understand why the author doesn't fix his own problem by either:

a. Starting his own PuG.

b. Finding and joining a guild that matches his playstyle/availability/raiding desires.

or

c. Starting a guild that matches his playstyle/availability/raiding desires.  He can even call it "No Achvmnts No Prblm."

Originally posted by clk23

I still don't understand why the author doesn't fix his own problem by either:

a. Starting his own PuG.

b. Finding and joining a guild that matches his playstyle/availability/raiding desires.

or

c. Starting a guild that matches his playstyle/availability/raiding desires.  He can even call it "No Achvmnts No Prblm."

because that would make sense and be logical and NOTHING on this forum or this entire site ever makes sense nor is anything ever logical and actually thought out.

People just like to b!tch because they can't hang with the big boys.

Boohoo. Life isn't fair, online video games aren't either. Anything involving human interaction will never be fair and balanced, some people are just better or worse or different or have more/less time etc. etc.

This entire debate is f*cking pointless, as was the OP's cry-fest little rant.

To use popular forum lingo...

l2play or gtfo

You know what really grinds my gears?

The title of the article and thread.

"LFM Ulduar 25, PST Stats and Achievement"

You really miss the point don't you?

Ulduar 25-man is, right now, the pinnacle of raiding in WoW. It's the highest level raid dungeon available in the game, and as such is (in the current game at level 80) the most challenging raid dungeon in the game.

And you want to PUG it? 

Until 3.2 comes out and the Argent Colliseum thing, Ulduar is the cutting-edge of raiding. It's the end-game. You really think it's fair the the end-game cutting edge raid dungeon be PUGable? 

Are you kidding me?

Some of us LIKE a bit of challenge and think it's FUN to tackle difficult content and succeed. You want to go and PUG Naxx/OS/Maly go ahead.

I suppose you want the Argent Colliseum to be PUGable too right? I mean, God forbid they release new content that actually is challenging and requires a coordinated, well rehersed TEAM of players to defeat instead of some random hodge-podge assortment of players better known as a PUG.

Narrow minded a bit, aren't we? Your view of MMOs is one of the most closed-minded I've ever read. "MMOs are about pugs" - really!? "Leveling is an annoyance" - to you, maybe, but not to people who actually enjoy a broader sense of MMOs.

If pugs are your favorite way to play, fine, more power to you. If you hate to level - I've leveled many toons, I get it, but that's you, not every person in the game. I still like to level characters. If you don't role play at all, great, WoW especially is the place to be, knock yourself out, but some of us actually have character concepts and do role-play at least a little bit. If you don't like guilds, or hard-core raiding teams, fine, but many people do. If you don't like casual guilds, fine, but many people do.

I can go on and on about what MMORPG games ARE, that you deny because you don't play that way. They are about many styles of play, bottom line, in a vast world (hopefully). There is room for all kinds of players. Quit speaking as if they are all like you; they aren't. Your blinders are so big you practically have tunnel vision.

I never got to your point about achievements; frankly, I stopped reading where it became apparent that your prejudice is so huge I could care less what else you have to say. If you want me to pay attention to you, then stop speaking as though you talk for everyone when who you are really talking for is YOURSELF. I'm sick of that attitude.

Clue: we aren't all the same. Get it, or shut up about MMOs.

;)

 "Raiding has become elite."

Uhh...raiding hasn't been considered elite since pre-TBC.  When everyone has access to something it cease to be elite.

A bit too emotional guys, WoW is really a fairly casual game, even as far as raiding goes.  No need to get so upset.

Back to the OP's concern.

WoW as a game offers a wide range of possible gameplay from the most casual and fun oriented to some semi serious raiders.   I talk using my own experience.

I have 2 bunch of alts, one bunch from an american server Medivh, mainly for fun, as my home and friends start there.  We all once live in the east coast.  Now we are all split up.  WoW for us is pure fun.  We play all sorts of crazy things from 5 melee instance runs (wipes) to fishing contest.  Now these players do not care much about achievement and see this game feature as extra fun.  Tell you what we all go nake and jump from every building, flying boat and so on to get that achievement where u did not die after jumping and ends up with 1hp.

My other server is oceanic, and we do raids.  Yes I also pug when I missed the raid start for the week due to work.  Raid guilds put in a lot of effort to make the raid work, mimimize failures.  The cost of a raid is immense, especially during progression, 20-30 wipes per run for a boss.  One mistake from one member, one DC or one lag and its all over.  Imagine getting boss to 1% and someone forgot to kill the tree that heals freya.  Oh, rerun from 100% again.

Now raid guild picks members seriously.  24 sad faces if one does a foolish move.  Regular ulduar raid guild will bring you to 25naxx and run you through and read the recounts and wws, they will also do heroics with you to gain a feel.  Achievements are less of a concern, they got time to really work it out with you before recruiting into guild.

I also pug.  Yes you can PUG ulduar, we did that regularly, even hard mode.  I got 4 tower up FL hard mode from a PUG, after wiping for 2 nights.  Some PUGs are as serious as regular raids b/c they still want it done.  If they do not know you first hand, they have to decide wether to accept you, in 1 minute or less.  On what basis can they use to decide?  Gear, achievement.  Its like a temporary staff recruitment for a day.  Tell me what high school you attend.

Is that discrimination, yvmv.  A choice of candidate has to be made, don't blame the tool used.  Achievement is just the tool, gear check is just the tool.

Can the OP form his 25man?  It depends.  If he does not know the boss fight, he need to find raid leaders who knows.  Good raid leaders usually start his own raids, a random nobody forming a 25man ulduar will not attract the veteran 25man raiders.  No one wants to kill FL after 10 wipes, got saved and fell apart b/c the raid can go no further.  No good raiders want to do that till maybe monday when server is about to reset in 20 hours.

For raiding players, yes, the OP does point out some issues.  People are being assessed and selected.  Some usual tools are gear check and acheivement.  Those without will have to run heroics to gain friends or pug 10s and late monday 25s trying to get achievements.  Its like an entry ticket.  With naxx gear + H gear, you pass the gear check.  PUG 10man to holdir and thorim, and maybe 25man FL and you can try to join the regular 25man teams when they have ppl offline or DCed.

OP's bitterness we all know, we have been there.  But he seems to have vent excessively against the tool.  Achievevment is not designed with a bad motive.  Many achievements are really fun.  It just happened that some boss kill achievements are also convenient tools for raid leaders to assess quality of PUG members.

At the end of the day, you need to enjoy the game to justify all the expenses.  From ass long hours to monthly sub.  The OP seems to have missed this in his discussions

I get my epics from pvp and the argent tournament for now. I flat out refuse to raid. I don't have that kind of time and in all honesty the attitude of the raiding community leaves a lot to be desired. Now to make things worse Blizzard is adding that crap to the torunament.

The WoW achievement system is pretty gay in general.  I'm an old school EQ player that has never been impressed or interested in the raid system WoW has in place.  I have been on about 5 raids total and doubt I ever go again.  The whole send me your age, weight and condom size is just a complete turn off on top of everything else.

The real issue with WoW is simply this, it's so easy to solo your way to lvl 80 that 95% of the players in the game have no clue how to play their character in a group once they reach lvl 80.  It's like a bunch of people with ADD who ran out of ritalin behind those keyboards.

I've noticed this problem popping up lately.  I had a druid geared in heroic gear and was told couldn't come to Naxx because he "wasn't geared".  Should of been "wasn't acheived" maybe?  This is silly of course as I have the knowledge from running Naxx with my pally, DK and mage. 

All 25 raiders don't need the hard achievements to qualify for running a raid.  Lately though it seems people are getting lazy and want the "easy" way to get the raid done.  By having people that already did the raid so many times they have all the gear and the achievements.  Course, if they have all the gear and achievements, why would they be raiding that place again in the first place?

In a 25 man you have a bit more "wiggle" room for error.  I'd never do Sarth 3D 10 man with 1 or 2 people that didn't know what to do.  I'd have no problem starting a 25 man one with a few people that didn't though, just explain it and let them learn.  Remember all you people that are "Undying" and "Immortal", you were raider newbies at one point too.

 Hmmm.... so johnspartan you're saying its a game...

Why yes it is... isn't it. A lot of these people are not asking for an apology really, especially not from you I think.

The game is what it is because of hard core end gamers. It is not made up of rules per se, the rules are made up by elitist factions such as yourself that sets the bar for everyone who are casual or who actually have LIVES. Not to say that such separation is wrong. People can choose who they want to play with, and if they are good enough. On an earlier post, you seem to be a good judge of character just by looking at them, so I will not delve into that further. In any MMORPG it is killed or be killed, the survival of the fittest, but honestly now, did you not start somewhere? And like you even said on an earlier post again, guilds carry certain people, you judge people so easily on certain things.... 

I played WoW since its inception, till prior to Ulduar. I have every achievement since then, have arena mounts, ala'r's phoenix, etc completed all the instances, pre BC onwards to LK dungeons 10/25 non/heroic, in a well known Korgath(US) guild from inception to its dissolution, and I have grown tired as such, and honestly, it is because of elitist people like you, my good sir, johneffinspartan who makes the game experience quite bad.  It is people like you who ruin it for most others, and I know you could care any less but hey, I could care less either what you think about my response to you.

Also, I'm pretty sure you yourself, got carried through most of the instances gaining your achievements, and now just acting big on it. I feel sad for you.

As for the other WoW gamers, don't mind what this fool or myself says, do not deter it from your game experience. People will be people and you just have to deal with it, unfortunately. But ya, people like him ruin the game, so don't mind him at all.

The game has its problems, you play it for the fun factor, the gear, the achievement, work on your own pace, pugs are a plenty and most are bad, that is common, get into a casual end game guild, people who like yourself have lives, unlike our lil buddy here who lives in his mom's basement and is probably 40 already, eating cheetos and twinkies. PvP, craft, make yourself noteworthy in that respect, do a heroic with some guild here and there, make friends, network, it is a social network, isn't it johnny. But ya, for whatever reason, just don't forget to have fun, if it is not, then why play the game still....

Originally posted by johnspartan

I'm not going to appologize for myself or for anyone else.

These are games, if you want to play you have to play by the rules.

More importantly, in these game worlds there are certain norms and values and expectations that are created within the game's culture.

This culture includes achievement linking and such as the OP mentions.

You have two options.

A) complain about it like a loser
B) figure out what you need to do to "fit in"

It's basic human social dynamics. And yes, they apply to online game worlds. They involve human interaction don't they?

Moral of the story:

Deal with it, or don't bitch.

Little children whine and complain and go on and on about what they can't have and can't do. Adults view these things as challenges to overcome.

Which are you?

Nice.  Soooo, based on your viewpoint we should bitch about things that bug us and just accept it?  If that were the case this world would be A LOT different than it is.  Criticism itself is a social dynamic and usually it causes things to change for the better.  I suggest you do some further study of how social dynamics work instead of just posting "STFU and deal with it or fit in."

Originally posted by Thradar

Originally posted by johnspartan

I'm not going to appologize for myself or for anyone else.

These are games, if you want to play you have to play by the rules.

More importantly, in these game worlds there are certain norms and values and expectations that are created within the game's culture.

This culture includes achievement linking and such as the OP mentions.

You have two options.

A) complain about it like a loser
B) figure out what you need to do to "fit in"

It's basic human social dynamics. And yes, they apply to online game worlds. They involve human interaction don't they?

Moral of the story:

Deal with it, or don't bitch.

Little children whine and complain and go on and on about what they can't have and can't do. Adults view these things as challenges to overcome.

Which are you?

 

Nice.  Soooo, based on your viewpoint we should bitch about things that bug us and just accept it?  If that were the case this world would be A LOT different than it is.  Criticism itself is a social dynamic and usually it causes things to change for the better.  I suggest you do some further study of how social dynamics work instead of just posting "STFU and deal with it or fit in."

Sounds like what so many "law and order" types have said about dealing with the cops. It doesn't matter what they say or do, just DO IT(or get tased or shot).  Such an entitlement mentality is the natural out growth of the above. Which of course explains all too many of them acting like an army of occupation, rather than peace officers serving the citizens of their communities.

The armory and achievements have been used more and more to divide the player base, into those who place the game above most other things in terms of time/energy/effort and those of us that have lives outside of the game.  Its all too typical of human psychology, and was only to be expected when the armory and achievements were added.

Min/max players are rarely the best players.  WoW is not a difficult game, it is absolutely eons behind Everquest in that regard.

If you rely on crap like who has been where and who has what gear, you obviously do not comprehend that in EVERY SINGLE MMO and EVERY SINGLE JOB IN RL on the face of the earth, there are 20 percent who carry the rest on their talent.

The rest are just following orders or cannon fodder.  What this means is your gear and titles and what not are not an accurate indication of talent, when all you really have to do is SHOW UP.

If someone is ignorant enough to exclude people from a raid because they have not done it yet, they are just petty little pouches filled with vinegar and water with a nozzle on the end.

WoW raids are NOT that hard, period.  The entire game is aimed at the lowest common denominator, and now you have people who are basically the bottom of the barrel with gear and such handed to them telling skilled players they cannot participate because of _________.

Happy Happy Joy Joy.

 Elitism is never, ever a good thing.  Elitism is no different than griefing, its just a different form of it.

Edit: I forgot to add this:  No amount of gear or acheivments or whatever will make a PUG flow like a group of people who play together regularly.  

PUGS are the devil, especially on ANY raid content.  

Here is one for ya, imagine going up to 25 random people on the street and asking them to build an airplane which you will then attempt to fly.  That is a PUG.

Originally posted by johnspartan

Exactly.

Obviously there are quite a few people who don't sit around all day whining like children, instead they are enjoying themselves actually playing.

I troll these forums and try to be "the bad guy" when I'm bored at work, it's fun.

Forums are one of my favorite time-wasters.

It just saddens me so much to see soooooooo much idiocy on MMO forums.

Our opinion is immaterial... well too bad, we'll give it anyway.... let's work from the bottom up...

"It just saddens me so much to see soooooo much idiocy on MMO forums."

Well I have to agree, idiocy however is rampant anywhere, you yourself is one as am I (hard that may seem to accept) but we learn to deal with it, and we try not to involve others in it.... as much.

"Forums are one of my favorite time-wasters."

Yes, this is true, I swear, gotta love forums at times, it has a myriad of posts, both stupid like yours and mine.

"I troll these forums and try to be "the bad guy" when I'm bored at work, it's fun."

So true, everyone loves to bash on a great bad guy, you must be THAT kind of geek who doesn't get any respect from his parents despite achieving so much and now has turned emo for everyone to bash, "woe is me"

"Obviously there are quite a few people who don't sit around all day whining like children, instead they are enjoying themselves actually playing."

Again, obviously you don't fit the bill since you are here whackin on everyone else in forums, so that means you are part of the problem rather than the solution, you just proved you yourself have some form of life outside wow, and that side consists of being the forum bad guy wannabe, since you more likely don't have the balls to do so in real life. It explains so much about you, Sensei you have taught us so well this forum on how to be an awesome judge of character. (just by looking at em)

"Exactly"

Yes, you are a douchebag. At least we got that thing clear enough.

Stop posing, you ain't no hardcore gamer, just a wannabe elite (elite as wannabe, oh yeah), prolly someone who bought their account on eBay, someone who can't hang, and can just bash people in forums, you're that level 1 alt in WoW Forums causing trouble, cause you ain't got balls to back up and bash others on your main. So sad.....

Originally posted by stringray13

Here is one for ya, imagine going up to 25 random people on the street and asking them to build an airplane which you will then attempt to fly.  That is a PUG.

 

 

But the excitement and achievement when the plane takes off. Why would I want to build a plane with aeronautical engineers?

I agree... people are judged because they are said to be noobs. But honestly, there are a lot of people in their own guilds or core raiding groups that suck more than me.

I was caught in a situation where, they didn't need me but then they needed me cause the raid, people kept dropping, and I find out that the asshat, was the raid leader, and you know he told me that I was under geared, but while I was in the raid, I held solid 3rd place, in overall damage and damage-per-second.  So this stupid achievement thing means nothing to regular people like me who have lives that don't raid constantly. Sucks for them their loss.

It's a bleeding game for christs nonexistent sake. If people get so bloody uptight they ask for achievements blablabla, ignore and move on. Lots more fish in the sea. The game is extreme easymode anyway. Once you learn the scripted bossfights, and most of them are alike, you can do them in your sleep. Better off finding a guild with likeminded people and write off pugs alltogether. Pugging sucks most of the time anyway, allthough you can wipe in very interesting ways now and then in them I don't play WoW anymore though. Havent done much wotlk either. Took one character to 80, looked back at the journey from 70 to 80, said to myself 'I've done this shit too many times already' and quit.

I have left WoW in the last few weeks for no other reason than I have outgrown the game. I have played it for just over a year so my first time to be lvl capped was @ 80. I was one of the biggest noobs @ 80 & had to learn how to raid, I was so lucky that I met a good group of guys who took me under there wings & after awhile we were crushing  all the hc's. So I moved to doing naxx & naxx hc  before i knew it I was top geared. Then when Uldar patch came out I was being head hunted by some of the top guilds. So I went from being a noob to joining a top radiing guild with a little help. My point is most noobs are noobs because there are new players not because they can't play.  As for the whole link ach to get into the raid. A friend of mine rolled an alt & used an addon to link fake ach's so unless the RL compared ach's with him he could get into any raid he wanted to..

@ johnspartan why have you two to three posts in a row? When you could put it all into one post.

Seems like your grinding posts here, like grinding rep in wow :)