..at least that is what I took from this blog post by the AoC Director on his personal blog. Interesting read and he makes some good points, pity they couldn't have applied the thinking to their own launch and PR :p (yes, I know he wasn't in charge then, but still).

Article is worth the rather lengthy read. Wonder what type of a restaurant he thinks his own game is?

Originally posted by CyanSword

..at least that is what I took from this blog post by the AoC Director on his personal blog. Interesting read and he makes some good points, pity they couldn't have applied the thinking to their own launch and PR :p (yes, I know he wasn't in charge then, but still).

Article is worth the rather lengthy read. Wonder what type of a restaurant he thinks his own game is?

I logged on to get my sizziling stake at launch, instead I got a £50 turd with urate sprinkles on top and a glass of 10 day old wild pig stomach bile to wash it down with. But as we all know life is like a an overcooked steak short tough and the chips are always stacked against you, I'm waiting on Earthrise now.

Both AoC and WAR had issues within the first months after release leading to numerous calls  from vocal players regarding them as either unfit (AoC) or short sighted (WAR) without an end game (Both). HOwever , as I recall, there was an equally vocal uproar every time either of these MMOs pushed back their release dates.

IN the end, both these MMOs have influenced the industry when it comes to how and when to release an MMO. I expect many companies to push back release dates over and over in order to ensure the amount of 'polish' that gamers are expecting. Others may follow AION, where North America may  no longer be the audiance to target and focus their efforts on releasing in Asia. Then transfer to Western audiances once major and minor issues have been ironed out.

Either way, I expect that waiting for the next release will only get longer and longer.

Originally posted by Czzarre

Both AoC and WAR had issues within the first months after release leading to numerous calls  from vocal players regarding them as either unfit (AoC) or short sighted (WAR) without an end game (Both). HOwever , as I recall, there was an equally vocal uproar every time either of these MMOs pushed back their release dates.

IN the end, both these MMOs have influenced the industry when it comes to how and when to release an MMO. I expect many companies to push back release dates over and over in order to ensure the amount of 'polish' that gamers are expecting. Others may follow AION, where North America may  no longer be the audiance to target and focus their efforts on releasing in Asia. Then transfer to Western audiances once major and minor issues have been ironed out.

Either way, I expect that waiting for the next release will only get longer and longer.

Can you afford to delay infitely though? Like you said, people complain either way! I mean, I kinda see his point, unless you have tens of millions of dollars extra wouldn't it be best to just make something with a narrower focus...like if WAR tried to just be the best PVP it could and completely (and I mean, completely) dropped the notion it had PVE content? It might have been better for it

Originally posted by Czzarre

Both AoC and WAR had issues within the first months after release leading to numerous calls  from vocal players regarding them as either unfit (AoC) or short sighted (WAR) without an end game (Both). HOwever , as I recall, there was an equally vocal uproar every time either of these MMOs pushed back their release dates.

IN the end, both these MMOs have influenced the industry when it comes to how and when to release an MMO. I expect many companies to push back release dates over and over in order to ensure the amount of 'polish' that gamers are expecting. Others may follow AION, where North America may  no longer be the audiance to target and focus their efforts on releasing in Asia. Then transfer to Western audiances once major and minor issues have been ironed out.

Either way, I expect that waiting for the next release will only get longer and longer.

I in no way remember an uproar that even comes close to Warhammer's failures after release due to delays. If anything I remember great anticipation and patience by the players awaiting its release date and understanding that a pushback in release only meant that Mythic was trying to do this one right.

The problem was the attitudes of these companies that felt they could release a completely unfinished product full of bugs and issues  to start making money. Even Mark Jacobs has stated pretty much the same thing. Release the product and gamers should allow a cushion for developers to get the game right and flowing smoothly. If I wanted beta, I'd play beta not pay for it. In the case of Warhammer it was missing so much you could pretty much say it was in an alpha state.

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by Czzarre

Both AoC and WAR had issues within the first months after release leading to numerous calls  from vocal players regarding them as either unfit (AoC) or short sighted (WAR) without an end game (Both). HOwever , as I recall, there was an equally vocal uproar every time either of these MMOs pushed back their release dates.

IN the end, both these MMOs have influenced the industry when it comes to how and when to release an MMO. I expect many companies to push back release dates over and over in order to ensure the amount of 'polish' that gamers are expecting. Others may follow AION, where North America may  no longer be the audiance to target and focus their efforts on releasing in Asia. Then transfer to Western audiances once major and minor issues have been ironed out.

Either way, I expect that waiting for the next release will only get longer and longer.

 

I in no way remember an uproar that even comes close to Warhammer's failures after release due to delays. If anything I remember great anticipation and patience by the players awaiting its release date and understanding that a pushback in release only meant that Mythic was trying to do this one right.

The problem was the attitudes of these companies that felt they could release a completely unfinished product full of bugs and issues  to start making money. Even Mark Jacobs has stated pretty much the same thing. Release the product and gamers should allow a cushion for developers to get the game right and flowing smoothly. If I wanted beta, I'd play beta not pay for it. In the case of Warhammer it was missing so much you could pretty much say it was in an alpha state.

I guess that is kinda the new AoC guys point in the article, or he takes it a step further, wouldn't it be better to start with a smaller number of better features than a lot of 'so-so' ones. I wonder if we as players would accept someone saying 'nope, we wont do tradeskills' or 'we won't do PVE' (or PVP or whatever)...would we give them a chance or would we dismiss their product completely as not as 'worthy' as a mainstream release. I am not sure I would, I think the herd mentality might effect us and I wouldn't try it till I heard from a friend it was good (but hell, I am that way with almost all MMOs now already :p)

Originally posted by CyanSword

Originally posted by Czzarre

Both AoC and WAR had issues within the first months after release leading to numerous calls  from vocal players regarding them as either unfit (AoC) or short sighted (WAR) without an end game (Both). HOwever , as I recall, there was an equally vocal uproar every time either of these MMOs pushed back their release dates.

IN the end, both these MMOs have influenced the industry when it comes to how and when to release an MMO. I expect many companies to push back release dates over and over in order to ensure the amount of 'polish' that gamers are expecting. Others may follow AION, where North America may  no longer be the audiance to target and focus their efforts on releasing in Asia. Then transfer to Western audiances once major and minor issues have been ironed out.

Either way, I expect that waiting for the next release will only get longer and longer.

 

Can you afford to delay infitely though? Like you said, people complain either way! I mean, I kinda see his point, unless you have tens of millions of dollars extra wouldn't it be best to just make something with a narrower focus...like if WAR tried to just be the best PVP it could and completely (and I mean, completely) dropped the notion it had PVE content? It might have been better for it

 

 

No, you cannot delay indefinitly. Every day in beta is a day that your paying thousands to employees and not making any money off the product. HOwever, Devs now see that releasing a game to the masses only to have them revolt (whether deserved or not) leads to a loss of millions in the long term. UNlike the above poster, I do not think that WAR was in alpha stage at launch. AoC's launch was far worse...far far worse. WARs only problem was lack of end game and repetitive model of RvR. None the less what we have now is a lot of skittish companies ...dotting i's and crossing t's ..in triplicate and almost hesitant to let their game out.

In my opinion, the best thing for MMO devs is to somehow readjust player expectations of MMOs on release. To educate the playerbase of an MMOs growth and to look long term. There are many (forum vocal) players who scream "If it isnt flawless and doesnt have every feature that was first listed 7 yrs ago in early concept form, then I wasted $50 to play pre-alpha!" etc etc ...That kind of console game mentality just isnt in line with the mechanics and realities of MMOs.

I find that the best way to gauge the full (short and long term) success of a MMO game isnt based on the game at release, but how the game is adjusted for the 1st months after release. Do developers identify, target and fix the major flaws? or do the devs keep their heads in the sand.

I say alpha stage kind of tongue in cheek but let's look at the reality of Warhammer's release.

Here are things that were not released when they were told would be in game or were broken.

4 cities and 4 classes

morales not working.

cast lag problems

city sieges not working and crashing

There were supposed to be 20 or so scenarios according to Paul Barnett. We ended up with 8 or 9.

itemization was completely screwed.

Pick lock did not work.

I"m sure there were more but I just listed the ones I've thought about off the top of my head.

The game was as far from ready as advertised as possible. Just the removal of 4 cities and classes is enough to put it closer to the alpha-beta stage than the beta-release stage.

Originally posted by CyanSword

..at least that is what I took from this blog post by the AoC Director on his personal blog. Interesting read and he makes some good points, pity they couldn't have applied the thinking to their own launch and PR :p (yes, I know he wasn't in charge then, but still).

Article is worth the rather lengthy read. Wonder what type of a restaurant he thinks his own game is?

Perhaps this is more criticism of the original AoC director for not focusing on the basics more.

This article sums up things very well.. GAME DESIGNERS TODAY ARE UNEDUCATED, UNSKILLED MORONS< NOT TOO MENTION BUSINESS FAILURES

1. This guy is clueless business man when it comes to real business, Right off the bat he says "the customer always right" cliche is wrong, and how he adapts to his own impression. FAIL... go back to basic.. AKA REDO BRAIN FROM START.

The real problem is we have these idiots who are not game designers being in game design industry. Getting rid of this guy is a great start, now 50000 more need to go.

We also have developers who dont have the knowledge or technical experience in control, and we have a bunch of publishers that have no clue how to do anything but say, put out the product now and shitty because its good enough and then you have 2 more months to fix it up before we can your ass forever...  Customer Appreciation is high here LOL.

Even the basic scripters need to get canned, I dunno how many times i see stupid things being a major focus and I go, why oh why are you doing that becaue they added that feature to a video card and you practiced it in class? It makes the game SUCK. (example hint, i am talking about BLUR) quit psising off the game player with annoying shit you think is cool.

Another scripting moron example.. Here is the scripter mentality.. Im gonna throw this elite mob here around the corner, so when the player comes by he gets anal raped.. hahah

If you design to piss off your player, how is your player going to have FUN?

People just need a clue, they need education, holy crap are people stupid these days and it shows everywhere.. It's mostly coming from Europe it seems.. Although America is dumb as a box of rocks, they normally don't setup out of their rock boundaries and do things they cant.

Games are not fun because, game designers are a dime a dozen uneducated idiots who dont even play games.

Devs teams are idiots following a stupid art/concept class, and dont really develop, they moreless are following instructions. Which means, you are going to get bare mimimums of what they are told and nothing more. General scripters suck and have no real game understanding.. maybe 6 years of living in an 80's only arcarde should be a requirement???? Cuz i havent seen fun since then

Dishonest devs is the reason I left AoC.

They shrank the boobs. They said it was a bug, that was going to be fixed “soon”. But it was never a bug, and it was never meant to be fixed.

What pissed me off the most about this was the downright lies coming from the developer.

Why can't they just be honest?  just tell my why you sharnk them, and tell me you never plan on fixing them.   I really would have stayed if I felt like the dev were being honest with me, but I didn't.

http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=50635

Phew... ok I really try to sound as little whine-ish as possible.

I always counted myself as a very honest person. Not out of virtue, more out of sheer stubbornness. I say what I think and feel. No regrets, despite a LOT of trouble. But truth be told, IMVPO, 90% of all humans are not ready for honesty. Neither saying to taking. Truth doesn't get you anywhere but in endless series of trouble. Man are just not spiritually evolved enough to really handle honesty. Or in other words: if you want to sell stuff, being honest would ruin your business entirely.

You can try it out. Be honest and always answer truthfully just for a week, everywhere you go. Then go figure. *shrug*

Honesty is one of the most self-damaging characteristics a human being can have. End of story.

EDIT: That doesnt mean stupid lying is the answer. Stupidity always hurts the stupid one. Its not the lie that damages the liar, its the stupid lie.

Originally posted by Elikal

Phew... ok I really try to sound as little whine-ish as possible.

I always counted myself as a very honest person. Not out of virtue, more out of sheer stubbornness. I say what I think and feel. No regrets, despite a LOT of trouble. But truth be told, IMVPO, 90% of all humans are not ready for honesty. Neither saying to taking. Truth doesn't get you anywhere but in endless series of trouble. Man are just not spiritually evolved enough to really handle honesty. Or in other words: if you want to sell stuff, being honest would ruin your business entirely.

You can try it out. Be honest and always answer truthfully just for a week, everywhere you go. Then go figure. *shrug*

Honesty is one of the most self-damaging characteristics a human being can have. End of story.

 

EDIT: That doesnt mean stupid lying is the answer. Stupidity always hurts the stupid one. Its not the lie that damages the liar, its the stupid lie.

Old Turkish proverb:  If you speak the truth, keep a foot in the stirrup.

or to quote Jack Nicholson, aka Colonel Jessup, "You can't handle the truth" (A few good men)

Originally posted by Elikal

Phew... ok I really try to sound as little whine-ish as possible.

I always counted myself as a very honest person. Not out of virtue, more out of sheer stubbornness. I say what I think and feel. No regrets, despite a LOT of trouble. But truth be told, IMVPO, 90% of all humans are not ready for honesty. Neither saying to taking. Truth doesn't get you anywhere but in endless series of trouble. Man are just not spiritually evolved enough to really handle honesty. Or in other words: if you want to sell stuff, being honest would ruin your business entirely.

You can try it out. Be honest and always answer truthfully just for a week, everywhere you go. Then go figure. *shrug*

Honesty is one of the most self-damaging characteristics a human being can have. End of story.

 

EDIT: That doesnt mean stupid lying is the answer. Stupidity always hurts the stupid one. Its not the lie that damages the liar, its the stupid lie.

Big difference in personal relationships and business relationships.

Lying to a client, telling them you are going to do something when you have no intention of doing it, and they are paying you to do it, is not OK.

Telling your girlfriend you don't look at porn when you do is ok.
 

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Originally posted by Elikal

Phew... ok I really try to sound as little whine-ish as possible.

I always counted myself as a very honest person. Not out of virtue, more out of sheer stubbornness. I say what I think and feel. No regrets, despite a LOT of trouble. But truth be told, IMVPO, 90% of all humans are not ready for honesty. Neither saying to taking. Truth doesn't get you anywhere but in endless series of trouble. Man are just not spiritually evolved enough to really handle honesty. Or in other words: if you want to sell stuff, being honest would ruin your business entirely.

You can try it out. Be honest and always answer truthfully just for a week, everywhere you go. Then go figure. *shrug*

Honesty is one of the most self-damaging characteristics a human being can have. End of story.

 

EDIT: That doesnt mean stupid lying is the answer. Stupidity always hurts the stupid one. Its not the lie that damages the liar, its the stupid lie.

 

Big difference in personal relationships and business relationships.

Lying to a client, telling them you are going to do something when you have no intention of doing it, and they are paying you to do it, is not OK.

Telling your girlfriend you don't look at porn when you do is ok.
 

Even in business relationships there are huge differences in personnel. I extremely disliked Gaute Godager who was the first AoC game director and promised everything under the sun. I am happy with Craig who only promises what he can deliver. Would I like more stuff faster? Of course, but I do prefer goals to be realistic.

Btw, I had the same problem with one of our vendors at work. The sales rep promised the sun and deliveries were awful. We had him replaced. The new sales rep from the vendor is great. I am extremely pleased that we did not walk away.

For the consumer, it comes down to either wanting to be the first one in the game, to get some sort of advantage for playing longer, or waiting to see if the game is any good or if it gets better over time. Maybe if they took away the idea of seniority in games, players wouldn't rush to preorder and then be disappointed they are still playing beta.

It's my opinion that the loot grind is one of the big causes of discontent among many players of the genre. To eliminate loot progression entirely undermines the foundation of RPGs, but to have it dominate gameplay, makes for a very shallow community, in my opinion.

Originally posted by Greenie

I say alpha stage kind of tongue in cheek but let's look at the reality of Warhammer's release.

Here are things that were not released when they were told would be in game or were broken.

4 cities and 4 classes

morales not working.

cast lag problems

city sieges not working and crashing

There were supposed to be 20 or so scenarios according to Paul Barnett. We ended up with 8 or 9.

itemization was completely screwed.

Pick lock did not work.

I"m sure there were more but I just listed the ones I've thought about off the top of my head.

The game was as far from ready as advertised as possible. Just the removal of 4 cities and classes is enough to put it closer to the alpha-beta stage than the beta-release stage.

 

I think it's a good thing they didn't include the other cities. The player base would be  so spread out that their entire end game would be a huge mess. It takes effort to take a city no? So now add more.

What game companies should do is to learn to keep their mouths shut until they have certainties. then market off of those.

IMO you really have two options

- sell a game on hype and promises and pray your players won't leave when your release is buggy and unfinished

- limit the feature set and really polish what you do have in, promising to add the rest in later.

Both can be very risky. In the case of AoC they tried the first and there was a mass exodus once the good stuff ran out and the "real" game was revealed.

In the case of WAR they did the second but they made some fundamentally bad decisions for the core of the game and there was a mass exodus.

You can promise breadth or you can promise depth (polish), but not both unless you have more money and resources then God and a playerbase willing to suffer release push back after push back...

Like Blizzard/Bioware/Square Enix...

...but not like Funcom/Mythic.

SWG didn't start with vehicles and mounts and cities and space... problem is they added all that stuff without ever fixing the terrible balance issues and bugs and broken theme parks, which were the only real "content" in the game at the time...

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Greenie

Here are things that were not released when they were told would be in game or were broken.

4 cities and 4 classes

 
 

I think it's a good thing they didn't include the other cities. The player base would be  so spread out that their entire end game would be a huge mess. It takes effort to take a city no? So now add more.

What game companies should do is to learn to keep their mouths shut until they have certainties. then market off of those.

I think if they had made the game with all cities actually being invaded and been more like a realm invasion game like they advertised it would have been better.

The playerbase is spread out as it is due to the levels of your character dictating where you can and cannot go. This was a pisspoor design choice.

I agree with your last statement completely.

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Big difference in personal relationships and business relationships.

Lying to a client, telling them you are going to do something when you have no intention of doing it, and they are paying you to do it, is not OK.

Telling your girlfriend you don't look at porn when you do is ok.
 

lol :p Well, that is one way of looking at it :p

People say that 'we can't handle the truth'? Not so sure on that one myself, not saying I expect them to reveal 'warts and all' development process, but you could be more open and not do damage. Kind of the same point I noted Sanya Weathers made in her most recent article about patch notes.

There is a better middle ground than we have right now surely?