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Originally posted by Mattyb710
People begged and pleaded for a KOTOR MMORPG.
Now we are getting EXACTLY that. A KOTOR MMORPG.
Those same people now complain because it's not a sandbox game.
Did you somehow forget that the KOTOR games were story driven?

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exactly, anyone who actually thought that this would be a sandbox game wasn't really using their brain.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by nanoviper

So the question I post to all of the future SW:TOR community is "what could they do differently to please you?" 

 

they could take the game off rails, and let let us be who we WANT to be.

I don't want to be FORCED to be a "hero"....I don't want to be forced into a pre-designed "iconic" role....I want a virtual Star Wars universe where I carve my OWN path, and make my own way.

I want more to do than just "exciting Star-Warsy" combat.

A game with depth, and freedom, in other words.

This is simply another step toward over-simplifying and consolising MMORPGs. Have you seen the Smuggler's cover system, for example?? It TELLS you with little icons where to take cover....you're on rails the whole time, with pre-designated courses of action. Any choice is purely an illusion, and any there can be no freedom in this type of game. I am pretty much predicting that any space combat, if it's even included, will be more like Star Fox, or some other rail shooter.

Why the hate?? Because for years we speculated on how AWESOME it would be to have a Star Wars MMORPG set in the Old Republic era....only we were envisioning a REAL MMORPG, not a glorified console game. We're pissed because there will NEVER be a true Star Wars MMORPG as a result of TOR. The potential is wasted.

That is a fair assessment of current MMOs, the whole cookie cutter linear thing and all.  But while I can see you being upset that it is going story and not sandbox, and I kind of lament the same thing, it doesn't mean that it cannot still be a great game of that type.  Bioware does make quality games and I for one, sandbox or not, and quite interested to see what they do.  I don't really think that TOR getting made as story is why we are not getting TOR the sandbox. we are getting story game after story game because the difficulty of building a true sandbox is so great these days and the cost so high to make a game that they cannot risk it - they cannot risk people getting in game and leaving for lack of knowing what to do next nor can they balance all the possibilities and variations of a true skill based sandbox system.

If you must blame someone for the lack of a TOR sandbox game blame SoE for screwing the pooch on SWG releasing an alpha class to bait people to re sub when the game has glaring problems they where unable or unwilling to correct due to an early launch.  Blame WoW for reaching so many subscribers that it pointed the entire industry in a direction that is hard to turn away from when budgets to get from concept to launch are upwards of 50 million+.

I don't think it's about SWTOR being a sandbox game or not, KOTOR was also a single player game, so are you saying they have taken that and simply ported it to a expansive online world ?. I think people, from what they have seen and the information readily available are saying  this game looks like it's lacking an important social element that makes an MMORPG an MMORPG. Bioware may create a fantastic story driven game which will keep you occupied while the quests last or until you reach the games conclusion but because they haven't shown anything or released information regarding the social aspects of the game, people are rightly assuming this is a single player game using a MMO environment or a single player game masquerading as a MMO.

Obviously there are those who want a simple SWG replacement but I think that's more just wishful thinking rather then not knowing Biowares vision for SWTOR

Originally posted by baphamet

 

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Originally posted by Mattyb710
People begged and pleaded for a KOTOR MMORPG.
Now we are getting EXACTLY that. A KOTOR MMORPG.
Those same people now complain because it's not a sandbox game.
Did you somehow forget that the KOTOR games were story driven?

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exactly, anyone who actually thought that this would be a sandbox game wasn't really using their brain.

I agree, but I don't understand what indicates that they're the same people. It seems to me that the people upset about it not bearing a sandbox design are usually SWG refugees and rarely KotOR fans.

     People are pissed cause alot of us, including myself, want a true MMO feel game.. NOT some lame KOTOR that you have to pay a monthly fee to play..  If I wanted to play KoTOR, I would go do that now without paying for a monthly sub..  I don't want a remake of the screwed up SWG, however I was hoping for a MMO flexible sandbox style of game.. 

Will SWToR have 8 truely unique classes to play?   NOOOOOOOO 

Will SWToR have Dozens of zones to travel and explore at will?   ???  That information hasn't been released..

Will SWToR have Tradeskill economy with THOUSANDS of recipes for people to make and sell?  NOOOOOOO

Will SWToR have hobbies similar to fishing to pass the time?  NOOOOOOOO

     All I'm seeing so far is SWToR will have story, story, story, story, story to follow and jump thru hoops.. (just like kotor)  I swear.. When it comes to SWToR and information I feel like I'm dealing with a used car company.. Are you hiding something in fear it will LOSE customers or interest?   hmmmmmmm  Atleast with car companies when they come out with something new, they atleast will have a Demo for everyone to look at well before it hits production..   Where is our Demo?

Can we see 1 zone map?

Can we see 1 skill list of 1 profession?

Can we see 1 tradeskill?  I would like to see what weapons or armor we can make..

Is there actually leveling in the game?

From the opposition, I do see the term 'true MMO' a lot, and I used to think like that, but all I can think of now is the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.

When EverQuest was released, it typically had as many people in one zone on one server as are typically in a single public instance of popular MMOs today, greater proportional distance between starting locations, and certainly a higher percentage of solo players. Was it not a true MMO, or are you ad hoc redefining the term?

'Massively multiplayer online role-playing game' means just that, and TOR more than qualifies. Instancing is a tool enabling a tailored experience thereof.

Originally posted by Saerain

From the opposition, I do see the term 'true MMO' a lot, and I used to think like that, but all I can think of now is the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.

When EverQuest was released, it typically had as many people in one zone on one server as are typically in a single public instance of popular MMOs today, greater proportional distance between starting locations, and certainly a higher percentage of solo players. Was it not a true MMO, or are you ad hoc redefining the term?

'Massively multiplayer online role-playing game' means just that, and TOR more than qualifies. Instancing is a tool enabling a tailored experience thereof.

     I'm not buying that, and I refuse to redefine what MMO stands for..  Let me explain with example..  We all read and seen the beginning "Capt" quest where you have to kill or not kill the Capt..  Is this the type of questing there is thru the entire game?  The reason why I ask is because that is "instanced" or phases.. If you haven't noticed, Bioware has complete avoided any talk about multiple people doing the quest at the same time..  Example..  Can 2 or more groups do the Capt Quest at the same time in the same room doing whatever?   NO..  What Bioware is doing is NOT mmo standard and NOT an upgrade to the MMO industry.. Part of the feel of a true mmo is the occasional help and grouping with others while adventuring..  Example..  Lets say I'm soloing the Capt quest and find myself lost or not quite into it.. Will another person happen to wonder by and help me in killing all the ship invaders.. NO.. because I'm not in the open world to run into strangers most of the time..

     Sorry to say it again.. SWToR is not MMO standard and I see little "social" skills needed..  This is nothing more then a single player game with a pinch of online group to somehow redefine it as a MMORPG..  I'm not fooled

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by Saerain

From the opposition, I do see the term 'true MMO' a lot, and I used to think like that, but all I can think of now is the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.

When EverQuest was released, it typically had as many people in one zone on one server as are typically in a single public instance of popular MMOs today, greater proportional distance between starting locations, and certainly a higher percentage of solo players. Was it not a true MMO, or are you ad hoc redefining the term?

'Massively multiplayer online role-playing game' means just that, and TOR more than qualifies. Instancing is a tool enabling a tailored experience thereof.

 

     I'm not buying that, and I refuse to redefine what MMO stands for..  Let me explain with example..  We all read and seen the beginning "Capt" quest where you have to kill or not kill the Capt..  Is this the type of questing there is thru the entire game?  The reason why I ask is because that is "instanced" or phases.. If you haven't noticed, Bioware has complete avoided any talk about multiple people doing the quest at the same time..  Example..  Can 2 or more groups do the Capt Quest at the same time in the same room doing whatever?   NO..  What Bioware is doing is NOT mmo standard and NOT an upgrade to the MMO industry.. Part of the feel of a true mmo is the occasional help and grouping with others while adventuring..  Example..  Lets say I'm soloing the Capt quest and find myself lost or not quite into it.. Will another person happen to wonder by and help me in killing all the ship invaders.. NO.. because I'm not in the open world to run into strangers most of the time..

     Sorry to say it again.. SWToR is not MMO standard and I see little "social" skills needed..  This is nothing more then a single player game with a pinch of online group to somehow redefine it as a MMORPG..  I'm not fooled

Yeah...it would be SO much better and MUCH more immersive if 5 groups of people stood around on the bridge of the ship, waiting their turn to kill or save the captain. -.- 

Originally posted by singsofdeath

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by Saerain

From the opposition, I do see the term 'true MMO' a lot, and I used to think like that, but all I can think of now is the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.

When EverQuest was released, it typically had as many people in one zone on one server as are typically in a single public instance of popular MMOs today, greater proportional distance between starting locations, and certainly a higher percentage of solo players. Was it not a true MMO, or are you ad hoc redefining the term?

'Massively multiplayer online role-playing game' means just that, and TOR more than qualifies. Instancing is a tool enabling a tailored experience thereof.

 

     I'm not buying that, and I refuse to redefine what MMO stands for..  Let me explain with example..  We all read and seen the beginning "Capt" quest where you have to kill or not kill the Capt..  Is this the type of questing there is thru the entire game?  The reason why I ask is because that is "instanced" or phases.. If you haven't noticed, Bioware has complete avoided any talk about multiple people doing the quest at the same time..  Example..  Can 2 or more groups do the Capt Quest at the same time in the same room doing whatever?   NO..  What Bioware is doing is NOT mmo standard and NOT an upgrade to the MMO industry.. Part of the feel of a true mmo is the occasional help and grouping with others while adventuring..  Example..  Lets say I'm soloing the Capt quest and find myself lost or not quite into it.. Will another person happen to wonder by and help me in killing all the ship invaders.. NO.. because I'm not in the open world to run into strangers most of the time..

     Sorry to say it again.. SWToR is not MMO standard and I see little "social" skills needed..  This is nothing more then a single player game with a pinch of online group to somehow redefine it as a MMORPG..  I'm not fooled

 

Yeah...it would be SO much better and MUCH more immersive if 5 groups of people stood around on the bridge of the ship, waiting their turn to kill or save the captain. -.- 

Don't forget XxDarthVader69xX jumping around making anal [fill in the blank] jokes, while constantly trying to duel you, and begging for credits for his grandmothers rectum reconstruction surgery.  If that sounds inappropriate to you then you might want to redefine you're definition of MMORPG cause that's what they are filled with right now.  So far I'm loving the way BW is doing SWTOR.

Originally posted by grandpagamer

I do not know if the game will appeal to me or not  but considering who is developing the game im pretty sure it will. And whether i like the game or not i have  trouble thinking it will not do very well in the market. I dont know why people hate on this or any other game that they feel doesnt appeal to their specific needs.  If its not your type of game find one that is there are many available be it MMO or single player.

Problem is this game will be just like the rest , problem I'm seeing in this thread is the OP asks why people are hating on the game people are giving honest answers and opinions the haters are getting flak from the fanbois which throw the same tired argument its Bioware!!! They wont fail!!! TOR will be epixxx!!!! There are people that read about the game and some dont like what they see and it is within their right to post their opinion about this game as do the fanbois no need to get all nerdraged when someone post criticism about it.

And tbh not all of Bioware's game werent that great some of them were good but not ALL of them. Plus they have never made a MMO before so before you go off and get on your knees and suck off Bioware's knob all you fanaticism might just backfire in the end.

I saw an interview with a bioware dev about player mindsets and choice, and in a nutshell it basically said players should be forced to choose quickly from a very limited number of options for them to be happy, and that too many choices for most players is a bad thing. Also that not feeling pressure to act was also a bad thing. Sounds to me like linear funneling at its base.

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by Saerain

From the opposition, I do see the term 'true MMO' a lot, and I used to think like that, but all I can think of now is the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.

When EverQuest was released, it typically had as many people in one zone on one server as are typically in a single public instance of popular MMOs today, greater proportional distance between starting locations, and certainly a higher percentage of solo players. Was it not a true MMO, or are you ad hoc redefining the term?

'Massively multiplayer online role-playing game' means just that, and TOR more than qualifies. Instancing is a tool enabling a tailored experience thereof.

 

     I'm not buying that, and I refuse to redefine what MMO stands for..  Let me explain with example..  We all read and seen the beginning "Capt" quest where you have to kill or not kill the Capt..  Is this the type of questing there is thru the entire game?  The reason why I ask is because that is "instanced" or phases.. If you haven't noticed, Bioware has complete avoided any talk about multiple people doing the quest at the same time..  Example..  Can 2 or more groups do the Capt Quest at the same time in the same room doing whatever?   NO..  What Bioware is doing is NOT mmo standard and NOT an upgrade to the MMO industry.. Part of the feel of a true mmo is the occasional help and grouping with others while adventuring..  Example..  Lets say I'm soloing the Capt quest and find myself lost or not quite into it.. Will another person happen to wonder by and help me in killing all the ship invaders.. NO.. because I'm not in the open world to run into strangers most of the time..

     Sorry to say it again.. SWToR is not MMO standard and I see little "social" skills needed..  This is nothing more then a single player game with a pinch of online group to somehow redefine it as a MMORPG..  I'm not fooled.

You cant talk to some of these people though but I agree with your post, these people are just as bad as the Blizzard WOW fanbois, you cant get it thru their head.

Originally posted by firefly2003

And tbh not all of Bioware's game werent that great some of them were good but not ALL of them. Plus they have never made a MMO before so before you go off and get on your knees and suck off Bioware's knob all you fanaticism might just backfire in the end.

Just out of curiosity, what Bioware game has not been critically acclaimed and well received?

Originally posted by Dameonk

Originally posted by firefly2003

And tbh not all of Bioware's game werent that great some of them were good but not ALL of them. Plus they have never made a MMO before so before you go off and get on your knees and suck off Bioware's knob all you fanaticism might just backfire in the end.

 

Just out of curiosity, what Bioware game has not been critically acclaimed and well received by a lot of people?

that sonic RPG for the ds?

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood

Originally posted by TheStarheart

that sonic RPG for the ds?

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood

That's a good guess, but it actually received pretty decent reviews.

1up: A
Game Informer: 8.5
Gamespot: 6.5 (fair)
VideoGamer: 8

And it's sold more copies than Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Everyone complains they want something new, until something new starts to show itself, and then suddenly the games already failed even before they've released all the class information much less further information on gameplay and level design.  It astounds me how ridiculous this community can be sometimes.

Exactly!   If a developer tries something new, the game isn't meeting expectations.  If a developer tries something traditional, they're just an EQ-clone.  

Or if some game doesn't *excatly* match what one individual thinks would make the perfect game, then it's doomed to failure.   Certainly ANY game that doesn't match what THEY alone want to see, couldn't possibly be fun, could it?

Nevermind if previous games tried some of those same forumulas and didn't work out well.   The MMORPG genre is filled with failures  but then the MMORPG community is filled with people who not only complain but are unable to remember the history of the genre.  

Which is why I'm so glad to see developers reaching to players *outside* of the MMORPG community.   MMORPGs are becoming mainstream and it's far past time that the little niche community start to see why MMORPGs pre-WoW were never as successful as other genres like FPS or RPGs or RTS games.      

We'll be seeing MMORPGs that are actually fun to play, and that's certainly not going to match what old MMORPG players were willing to swallow in previous games.  

Originally posted by Dameonk

Originally posted by TheStarheart

that sonic RPG for the ds?

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood

That's a good guess, but it actually received pretty decent reviews.

1up: A
Game Informer: 8.5
Gamespot: 6.5 (fair)
VideoGamer: 8

And it's sold more copies than Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles.

Lol IGN also gave it a 6.5. If you noticed, 6.5 out of 10 is 65%, that's barely fucking passing by any real standards. good job though. If i played every barely passing game I'd probably kill myself.

We are talking about KOTOR 3 SPRPG game here and that`s what it should have been.

Instead, Bioware got greedy and walked in an unknown territory for them.

This game smells like a huge fail to me.

As a SPRPG -awesome, as MMORPG - epic failure.

All the fanbois that are in denial at this point, will realize this after they play few classes to end and realize there is not much else to do.

So far I`ve seen ZERO MMO features with staying power in this game.

If there were some planed I`m sure we would have heard about it by now.

A great story is cool and a great story told by a great storyteller is even cooler, but a story by default has a beginning and END.

Bioware should wake up and hire specialized MMORPG developers that will make this game a true MMORPG.

It`s not too late.

Originally posted by TheStarheart

Originally posted by Dameonk

Originally posted by TheStarheart

that sonic RPG for the ds?

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood

That's a good guess, but it actually received pretty decent reviews.

1up: A
Game Informer: 8.5
Gamespot: 6.5 (fair)
VideoGamer: 8

And it's sold more copies than Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles.

 

Lol IGN also gave it a 6.5. If you noticed, 6.5 out of 10 is 65%, that's barely fucking passing by any real standards. good job though. If i played every barely passing game I'd probably kill myself.

LOL, so he gave you 4 reviews, 3  which give it a 80%-100% raiting and you pick another site that gives it a 65% and you claim it's fail. GG

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by TheStarheart

Originally posted by Dameonk

Originally posted by TheStarheart

that sonic RPG for the ds?

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood

That's a good guess, but it actually received pretty decent reviews.

1up: A
Game Informer: 8.5
Gamespot: 6.5 (fair)
VideoGamer: 8

And it's sold more copies than Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles.

 

Lol IGN also gave it a 6.5. If you noticed, 6.5 out of 10 is 65%, that's barely fucking passing by any real standards. good job though. If i played every barely passing game I'd probably kill myself.

LOL, so he gave you 4 reviews, 3  which give it a 80%-100% raiting and you pick another site that gives it a 65% and you claim it's fail. GG

 There are some more C scores for you. I love bioware but the point he made was to name a game that wasn't "critically acclaimed" by Bioware. I would say this one fits and I'm sure there are more C- to C+ scores around.

Eurogamer 7/10

IGN 6.5/10

Metacritic 74/100

GameRankings 75%

The edmonton team isn't even working on TOR anyway, so he was really going nowhere with his "Bioware does no wrong in the past" post.