I've been working on my own economics concept for a long time.  I have posted my idea to slideshare because it's a visual presentation in PDF format (though you won't need acrobat to see it).  I tried to put as much information in the presenation and still keep it as short as possible.  This of course will lead to sevral questions I'm sure.  Feel free to post your questions and comments here.  Looking forward to a disscussion.

 Thanks,

Talinguard

EDIT: 09/29/11  Presentation totally re-done...

Read here: www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10

Very nice your economics ideas are 5 times more developed than when we last saw them, and a lot easier to see how they would interact with game mechanics this time around.

Question 1:  Decay, what happens to players bank/inventories when they leave the game for a month or two?   How do you keep it from being too bad of a punishment if they decide to log in again in the future?

Quesion 2:  You mention lowly bronze, and finest mithril.   Are they truely that seperated IE: mithril is always better?   Or do you have other mechanics like even though bronze is bad for a lot of things it's better than quite a few for certain magic types(pagan), and most deffiantly better than mithril for channeling Shadow/Occult/Infernal magic because it's not naturally imbued with light/holy attributes even though there are a dozen things that would be "mithril" class better?

Question 3: You mention EMB(?) but only mention getting it from other kingdoms for enchantments,  does this mean you can channel your own kingdoms EMB instinctively?

Question 4:  Am I right or wrong with the assumption that when you collect a dead person's EMB you only collect a fraction of it instead of all?

Question 1: Decay, what happens to players bank/inventories when they leave the game for a month or two? How do you keep it from being too bad of a punishment if they decide to log in again in the future?

I had thought about that, the simple answer is accounts that are not used for a certain period of time would be "removed" from the game. The time period would have to be relatively long, say more than a month, to prevent people from creating accounts and using them to shelter their wealth. Overall though, losses would be small from each player and would be in proportion to the amount of wealth they have stored in the realm bank.

Quesion 2: You mention lowly bronze, and finest mithril. Are they truely that separated IE: mithril is always better? Or do you have other mechanics like even though bronze is bad for a lot of things it's better than quite a few for certain magic types(pagan), and most defiantly better than mithril for channeling Shadow/Occult/Infernal magic because it's not naturally imbued with light/holy attributes even though there are a dozen things that would be "mithril" class better?

The answer to this question would really depend on the system that adopts it, but I see where you’re going with this and when I wrote that I was thinking about weaponry. I think you make a very good point and would say that different materials have different values in different applications. I have some ideas on how lower level players could add to the economy as a whole, though I didn't address this in the presentation for time considerations.

Question 3: You mention EMB(?) but only mention getting it from other kingdoms for enchantments, does this mean you can channel your own kingdoms EMB instinctively?

All EMB (enchantment Base material) is used the same way. The distinction is that you have native access to one of 5 types.  to obtain the other 4 you have to engage players in one of several ways.  The point is that it is a universally valued comodity that can only be directy obtained though interaction with other players.  That is not to say that you MUST fight other players to get it, but the source of EBM is though player to player interaction.  Some players will obtain other items of value from NPC's, sell them and exchange thier money for EBM.

The best items will contain all 5 types of EBM. How crafters work with EBM will depend on the crafting system. Something i have given some thought, but I was hoping to find a new and innovative system of crafting that someone else had developed that would integrate into my ideas. But the answer in my own mind is that as crafters gain skill they will learn to work with all types of EMB, but at the moment I haven’t quantified it.  I have a lot of jumbled ideas for combat and crafting, but they are not as refined as this part on the economy.

Question 4: Am I right or wrong with the assumption that when you collect a dead person's EMB you only collect a fraction of it instead of all?

That is correct. I envision hundreds of thousands of units being used to imbue skills into weapons of the highest level used by the highest level players (this is simply to make it more easily divisible). A small percentage of EMB used proportionally from each item a player carries will be lost to the victor as a spoil. Since the greater quantity and variety of EMB equates to more power, the rewards will be in direct proportion to the power of the player (not withstanding the players own combat skill, which may vary).

At the end of the day your "skill" as a player in PvP will be determined by your net gain (or loss).  That is to say, you could loose 25,000 EBM from loosing but gain 38,000 from your victories, this your net gain would be 13,000.

Killing a high level player may yeild hundreds of EBM which may be enough to raise your items skills or simply be traded at the realms bank for money which can be used to buy items from players.

Hope that answers your questions...
 

The first thing I see is an impossible function (one input with two possible outputs). You should fix that.

EMB

The playable concepts I derive from your slideshow have one of two flaws:

• Players will collect their stipends of EMB and never engage in PvP, thus farming it. The players with the most characters will be the richest.
• Players, if forced to PvP for EMB stipends, will swarm in large groups (removing strategy from PvP combat - it's a zergfest). And to prevent the loss of their precious EMB, they will probably keep a second character or account around to hold all EMB gathered that day. This way if they are killed later, they lose nothing (RL example: dummy corporations).

The rest of it lost my interest when I came across these issues. I'm an impatient person. If a problem is presented, I expect a remedy method (or probable solution) to be shown immediately afterwards, and I have no idea where you were going with this system after you displayed some item / weapon stats in a needlessly graphical interface.

What I got from this presentation was that you wanted to make a viable economy between three separate gameplay mechanics while making crafters the apparent money sink or center of the game. You're not treating them equally, so you will have problems there to begin with. All parts must be considered independent and equal before you merge them. No one part must require to consume more or produce a more valuable resource than another.

It should work like this:

These machines work fine. They can all create an output independently.

What you have is this:

You were trying to get this:

In A, crafting is optional. The PvE and PvP machines can start on their own volition without the need of another input to begin (they are independent variables). You simply press "start". However, crafting requires an output from both PvE and PvP before it can start, thus making it reliant on a dependent variable (it becomes a dependent). Dependent systems are not fun - you cannot be independent when you require assistance from other individuals at all times, especially when the other individuals can be independent in their own right. So there cannot be players who only craft in this system, they must also be a hybrid between that and PvE or PvP (AKA: the same as most other systems out there).

In B, the machines will never start. They all require an input before they can make an output, therefore there will never be an output from any system unless an "act of God" gets things started - the proverbial lightning bolt in the ooze of life. This concept doesn't work well in video games, because the beginning is distorted by an unfair advantage in the favor of the first players.

Your slideshow also implied a static, constant time-line. Unfortunately, for a symbiosis to form between the different gameplay machines, there must be an evolving need between them (this is usually in the form of a linear progression system, where classes start selfish and solo and later begin to rely on groups). This concept across multiple mechanics is usually too difficult to represent in a game, so a singular gameplay machine is chosen to be the alpha-dominant-independent (this is often combat / PvE), while the others are beta-submissive-dependents (crafting / PvP / etc.).

You cannot expect each mechanic to begin as a co-dependent, since if there is nothing for any of them to start, they all will die. Every system must first be selfish and independent before it can start to form connections with others and reciprocate beneficial actions. If it has nothing to give in the beginning, it will give nothing until it eventually does gain something. That is to say, "if it has no means of getting something independently, it will not produce anything or will become a parasite to others."

So how does this all start? You can't start in the middle as you have done.

What will the first crafting players and any new crafting players thereafter get to do to have fun in your economic system? Or is this essentially the same as World of Warcraft with a ton more types of currency to add a veil of complexity to an otherwise simple system?

As a response to your signature. Money is not something you give to people when you have nothing to give them. The concept of money is to represent time and effort in the form of a spendable currency. Before that concept, it was to represent a value of gold in a vault (and gold was a sign of status, not a sign of nothing, and was traded for "items of value / effort expended" during the rise of the merchant class) - slips of paper were handed out instead of giving them the gold directly. The slips allowed the holder to visit the issuer's vaults later and collect the gold owed. Eventually slips of paper traded hands because their perceived value in gold was retained.

This perceived value later caused problems when rich merchants became lenders and formed banks, and the banks were lending out more slips of paper than their vaults of gold actually contained. Those who were in on the scheme quickly made it public knowledge, which started bank raids (everyone went to turn in their slips for gold to make sure their paper wasn't worth nothing). This happened numerous times in the past.

The problem was never addressed until the federal reserve formed within the United States. Now we have a different version of this system, where gold is no longer the object of our society - effort and time is (we're a service-based society). Bank raids are no longer a problem, but with dishonesty in Wall Street, it looks like the value of effort and time have been distorted to favor a specific group - and this recent recession was due to it being made public knowledge.

It's funny when you think about it: all this talk of freedom, and we still owe our lives to the banks... they are the kings of this era and we bow to their will.

 Originally posted by Plasuma!!! 

The first thing I see is an impossible function (one input with two possible outputs). You should fix that.

EMB

The playable concepts I derive from your slideshow have one of two flaws:

·       Players will collect their stipends of EMB and never engage in PvP, thus farming it. The players with the most characters will be the richest.

·       Players, if forced to PvP for EMB stipends, will swarm in large groups (removing strategy from PvP combat - it's a zergfest). And to prevent the loss of their precious EMB, they will probably keep a second character or account around to hold all EMB gathered that day. This way if they are killed later, they lose nothing (RL example: dummy corporations).

Anyone ever tell you you’re a jerk?....lol  J/K...

Seriously, thanks for looking at this and taking some time to critique it.  I see two things going on here.  

First, either your lack of comprehension or my lack of good explanation (probably a little of both, though I’ll take most of the blame) I think you missed a few things.

Second, I think your right about a few things (perhaps different things then u think), but fortunately the idea is malleable and I think the "problems” you see can be corrected without compromising what I was trying to accomplish.  The hardest part for me after several years of on again off again work on this is that it’s hard to see my own work objectively and my explanations become somewhat convoluted.

I’ll need to break my answers down so we can discuss each part. 

In regards to your first critique:

Players would only earn EMB for compleating any one of a number of time consuming tasks.  The tasks could be virtually anything a normal player would do in the course of the day, in other words players won't be forced to do tasks they don't want to, but the tasks they do will show they are playing the game.  The other possibility would be a single character per server. Both would solve the problem of; more char=more wealth (I'm partial to single character, multiple rolls, but thats another unique idea I have that dosen't apply to economics so I left it out).

Players will want to have EMB from each realm (thus it will encourage realm to realm conflict) because each type of EMB differs from the other types.  They all do the same thing, but cumulatively they are more powerful (I think I use the example of copper and tin both being metals you could makes weapons out of, but if you had both you could make bronze which will make a better weapon then copper or tin alone, EMB is analogous to this idea).  The amount “magic” that EMB from each realm can improve an item is capped equally, Thus 5 realms means that EMB earned as a stipend will only improve each enchantment on an item up to 20% of its total potential.  Thus each person in the world will want what every person from every other realm has, a type of EMB they don’t have access too.

There are two ways to earn EMB, directly though combat from players in other realms or indirectly by selling the rewards of another mode of play and using the cash earned to buy what a player needs. EMB earned from stipend will be called local, EMB earned from other realms will be called foreign. The idea of giving a player something of value (local EMB) allows the player to play the game that they wish in order to reach their accomplishments. Every realm is “rich” in one of 5 raw materials. All 5 combined by a player crafter will make the game’s best items. In case it wasn’t clear, an items power is in proportion to the amount and assortment of different types of EMB used to create the item (not to mention other factors like weapon quality and skill of crafter/s that created the item).

A player’s power is in proportion to the number of items, the level/ skills of the player, his skill within the system and the number of items and the amount and assortment of EMB used to create them. The reward for killing a player will come directly from the items a player has equipped. You don’t lose the item, you lose what makes it powerful (EMB), and before you tell me that this is nothing more than a tax or a decay scheme, I would say your right, however I believe that players hate decay schemes because of what they have to do in order to earn what they need in order to re-equip (usually that is grind in PvE). In this concept players are free to play whatever mode of play they wish in order to earn what they need, though some modes will be more profitable at times than others. I expect players will anticipate this and act accordingly.

Each realm has its own bank and each deals in all the types of EMB.  The exchange rate is based on the supply and demand of each type for each realm, thus the exchange will be completely different for each realm.

Players can use their stipend, or any other type of EMB,  to create money (by exchanging it at the realms bank for “coin-of-the-realm” similar to paper money and gold/ silver prior to Nixon ending the gold standard.

Players can also use their EMB, local and/ or foreign to create/ repair player items.

Local money after a short time will a have a lot less value than money from the other realms because the supply will be much higher and the demand lower.  The only reason that inflation of local money won’t get entirely out of hand is because there is a finite amount of EMB for each realm.  If too much EMB is taken by the other realms will impact the supply locally thus diminishing supply and raising demand.  This matters because EMB is used to maintain the power of items, which is constantly fluctuating.

The rest of it lost my interest when I came across these issues. I'm an impatient person. If a problem is presented, I expect a remedy method (or probable solution) to be shown immediately afterwards, and I have no idea where you were going with this system after you displayed some item / weapon stats in a needlessly graphical interface.

Thought it might make sense in some context, that is, you can see how it’s used. 

What I got from this presentation was that you wanted to make a viable economy between three separate gameplay mechanics while making crafters the apparent money sink or center of the game. You're not treating them equally, so you will have problems there to begin with. All parts must be considered independent and equal before you merge them. No one part must require to consume more or produce a more valuable resource than another.

It should work like this:

These machines work fine. They can all create an output independently.

What you have is this:

You were trying to get this:

In A, crafting is optional. The PvE and PvP machines can start on their own volition without the need of another input to begin (they are independent variables). You simply press "start". However, crafting requires an output from both PvE and PvP before it can start, thus making it reliant on a dependent variable (it becomes a dependent). Dependent systems are not fun - you cannot be independent when you require assistance from other individuals at all times, especially when the other individuals can be independent in their own right. So there cannot be players who only craft in this system, they must also be a hybrid between that and PvE or PvP (AKA: the same as most other systems out there).

In B, the machines will never start. They all require an input before they can make an output, therefore there will never be an output from any system unless an "act of God" gets things started - the proverbial lightning bolt in the ooze of life. This concept doesn't work well in video games, because the beginning is distorted by an unfair advantage in the favor of the first players.

I didn’t set out to create a crafting system so the crafting portion is not entirely finished for that reason.  Having said that, It wasn’t necessarily my intention to make crafting a class of its own.  I hadn’t decided that PvP’ers or PvE’ers couldn’t engage in crafting, thus PvE’er would earn a reward in the form of a raw material, PvP’ers earn a reward in the form of EMB from other realms and either can choose to be a crafter.  Be honest with you, I’m not set on either, but I see your point which kind of pushes crafting as a secondary class, but I don’t think that primary or secondary that it will swing the balance between the two.  It may however, mess up my diagrams a bit.  Does that make more sense? 

Your slideshow also implied a static, constant time-line. Unfortunately, for a symbiosis to form between the different gameplay machines, there must be an evolving need between them (this is usually in the form of a linear progression system, where classes start selfish and solo and later begin to rely on groups). This concept across multiple mechanics is usually too difficult to represent in a game, so a singular game play machine is chosen to be the alpha-dominant-independent (this is often combat / PvE), while the others are beta-submissive-dependents (crafting / PvP / etc.).

One of the goals of the system was to shift the dependant nature of combat.  Players PvE to earn rewards and use or trade those rewards to increase their position relative to others, PvP’ers also earn rewards, albeit different mechanic to increase their position by using or trading what they receive.  The two play types will want what the other play type offers, but remember that Players can choose to do both if they wish.  There may room for benefits and draw backs to leaning more one way than another, but that can be determined later.

You cannot expect each mechanic to begin as a co-dependent, since if there is nothing for any of them to start, they all will die. Every system must first be selfish and independent before it can start to form connections with others and reciprocate beneficial actions. If it has nothing to give in the beginning, it will give nothing until it eventually does gain something. That is to say, "if it has no means of getting something independently, it will not produce anything or will become a parasite to others."

Everyone receives EMB to start which is both money or raw material.  Since PvP in most games doesn’t get off the ground until most characters are 15-40% though leveling then the game play that takes place early on will stock the markets so I don’t believe your co-dependent scenario will be an issue. 

So how does this all start? You can't start in the middle as you have done.

What will the first crafting players and any new crafting players thereafter get to do to have fun in your economic system? Or is this essentially the same as World of Warcraft with a ton more types of currency to add a veil of complexity to an otherwise simple system?

Like all games crafter will craft whatever is in demand.  Repair will probably be a staple of the system.  This will ensure a high consumption of player sellable raw materials and it will ensure that the velocity y of money is high.  Since players create items a crafting system has to be created and determine where players learn to create items.  Using a recipe system similar to SWG might work, but frankly as far as crafting goes, for now, I’m open to opinions.

As a response to your signature. Money is not something you give to people when you have nothing to give them. The concept of money is to represent time and effort in the form of a spendable currency. Before that concept, it was to represent a value of gold in a vault (and gold was a sign of status, not a sign of nothing, and was traded for "items of value / effort expended" during the rise of the merchant class) - slips of paper were handed out instead of giving them the gold directly. The slips allowed the holder to visit the issuer's vaults later and collect the gold owed. Eventually slips of paper traded hands because their perceived value in gold was retained.

This perceived value later caused problems when rich merchants became lenders and formed banks, and the banks were lending out more slips of paper than their vaults of gold actually contained. Those who were in on the scheme quickly made it public knowledge, which started bank raids (everyone went to turn in their slips for gold to make sure their paper wasn't worth nothing). This happened numerous times in the past.

The problem was never addressed until the federal reserve formed within the United States. Now we have a different version of this system, where gold is no longer the object of our society - effort and time is (we're a service-based society). Bank raids are no longer a problem, but with dishonesty in Wall Street, it looks like the value of effort and time have been distorted to favor a specific group - and this recent recession was due to it being made public knowledge.

Perhaps your right, looking at it now, I should change it to, “Money is what you give when you have nothing to TRADE the person that has what you want”. I’ll fix that… Honestly I’m a little embarrassed I let it go for so long. As far as the explanation of gold standards and fiat currency, don’t worry, I get it ;).

It's funny when you think about it: all this talk of freedom, and we still owe our lives to the banks... they are the kings of this era and we bow to their will.

AMEN BROTHA!

One of the ideas behind the system was to move away from PvE as an absolute requirement.  If a player wishes to PvP and doesn’t want to brave the Fargo Deep Mines in the Arathi Highlands in order to earn some uber sword required to maintain competitiveness in PVP, he shouldn’t have to.  Soulbining has seen that player MUST compete in these areas even if they don’t want too.  Conversely, PvE’er might not want to PvP to earn the rewards given by systems like Honor and Realm points.

I wanted players to earn rewards playing the game they wanted to play.

There is a lot here, so I’ll stop now…..  This was a good conbersation....

Originally posted by Talinguard

Anyone ever tell you you’re a jerk?....

Actually yes, and I'm quite proud of that title.

I'll make a proper response to your post when I'm not feeling like a jerk (AKA: I had to say something, but I don't feel like writing an essay response today).

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

Originally posted by Talinguard

Anyone ever tell you you’re a jerk?....

 

Actually yes, and I'm quite proud of that title.

I can tell.....Kinda  like that Simon guy from that Idol show.....

EDIT:  I just relized that some people are going to read that out of context and really think I was calling you a jerk....lol

.

.

 Thanks for the reply, great input, I think you caught me in the middle of a significant rewrite.  I posted what I have so far (If the version you read had the background on every page you were reading an older version, the new version is all white for easier reading and was posted on 9-12).  I posted a newer (albeit unfinished) version.  I'm working on limiting the number of pages and I'll try to incorporate some of your suggestions.  It's funny, but I had already thrown out the several pages that described items and gave examples (delving), I think that stuff is for the next level of reader.  That eliminated 4 pages.  Instead I'm working on describing EBM, why it's a better solution and EBM's relationship to money and how players obtain money.  I'll also try to explain what I see as the advantages of the system are as a whole.

I'm not positive, but I think you may have though that Part 2 was part of the new concept.  Part 2 describes my conclusions about the way most of the industry is at present.  Right now, I'm wondering if I should create a link at the end of part 1 and create an entirely new presentation for Part 2.  A direction I'm leaning since most people hate the length of the presentation as it is.

.

Talingard,

I really like your idea, and its very cool, but you still have a faucet and drain system, pretty much, and gold is still recieved from NPCs.

Before you get all angry at me, let me explain.

EMB=gold. Gold = EMB.

You get EMB by killing other players. Those other players get EMB from killing.... other players. So its just a loop. The initial source of EMB is from... doing time consuming tasks (anything you want, you say) that proves you are playing a game.

Thus, the ORIGINAL SOURCE of EMB is from going out and PVE-ing (and some PVPing if you include PVP as a "time consuming task"). You go out, kill monsters, loot (or skin / debone it, etc) harvest, etc. But you don't pick up a loot back from the ground with the "gold" in it. You pick up your gold at the local bank (or guild house? Or however you plan to do it) for just being on. Thus, the original source of EMB IS from the NPC / world.

You do say the amount of EMB is controlled by the developers, or by automated formulas that make sure amount of EMB is kept at a decent lvl in comparison to the number of active players currently on.

But honestly, you can do the same thing with gold dropped from NPCs. Just simply have your automated formulas running, and the gold dropped from NPCs is automatically fluctuated as per the amount of gold the developers want in the game (even at a per player basis).

EMB loss is pretty much the same as gold loss for death like in most games (DAOC did this by making players pay to have their stats returned to their max lvl at a static amount per stat point per level of the character.) Just change this to a "percentage" as you have for EMB and you have the same thing!

As for your claim that this is a cycle, and not a faucet and drain. The fact is that the amount of EMB that goes back to the players is not related to how much EMB was "lost" (ie returned to the world) but by how much EMB there is in comparison to the total number of players. Thus, even if a HUGE battle took place and a MASSIVE amount of EMB was lost (hundreds of thousands of players died hundreds of times in a massive free for all to the death, thus 90% of your population of players lost 60 ~ 80% of their EMB in ALL their weapons / armor), but the population of your world was cut by 90% the next day (all the people committed suicide / quit the game because they lost all ther EMB), your system would actually LOWER the amount of EMB available to be gained because the 10% left of your population would still have their massive amount of EMB, plus all the items from the 90% who quit (with all their miscellaneous / extra / "2nd teir" max EMB items left in the vaults all over the world) would end up showing your world would be MASSIVELY over the limit for EMB existing in player useable form. So even though your world got back about 60~ 70% of all EMB that had been harvested since game creation, EMB harvesting lvls would be even lower the next day!!

Now, is this a bad thing? NO! Is it necessary? YES! Is it likely that this incredibly rare event would occur? BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Seriously?? HAHAHA! NEVER!

But, I use it to illustrate my point. It is not a cycle, it is a faucet and drain, with the faucet controlled by the developers via throttling your "oil wells" of EMB or opening them up a bit to increase EMB in the world.

A true cycle has a FINITE amount of materials, and how much CAN be extracted is never in relation to population. (Speed of extraction, sure, but 100% of available materials can always be extracted regardless of population of 1 or population of 100000000). Once that finite amount is reached, no more will ever be extracted until that material is returned to the world. At which point, the whole amount returned can be extracted once again.

Is this a good idea for an MMO... no! This requires some people to be always poor... BOOO!

SO your CONTROLLED faucet and drain is the best idea, I think.

Secondly, separating EMB and Gold to create a currency exchange that can be modified / used to fight each other and thus used to help control each other is great, but will it fail? Especially if EMB can be "carried" and "traded" by the players. They will just simply ignore gold and pay for everything straight up with EMB. Gold will only be held in minor amounts to buy / trade with NPCs and to use the auction house if the auction house ONLY allows purchasing with GOLD. At which point, players may put their items up for ridiculous amounts of Gold, give their name, and price in EMB then "send" items back and for via the in game mail system for the appropriate amount of EMB, thus destroying your attempt at regulating EMB by making gold an exchange.

The one way to fix this may be to make it so that Gold is stored in a bank vault, and payment can be given via "checks." and then NPCs take their "checks" to the bank to withdraw their gold (of course, players would never see this) but it would be an "excuse" / game world idea to explain why players carry no gold.

But if players carry EMB, then EMB can be dropped and looted when you are killed, thus, it is ALWAYS best to trade your EMB in for gold as soon as you can, and NEVER carry EMB... BUt then EMB has to take up ALOT of space in players vaults, so that they don't just store the EMB and NOT trade it to gold.

But, the way your current system works, WHY would ANY player trade EMB for gold. Emb is much more valuable than Gold, and thus should always be kept, regardless of exchange rate, and all trades Player to Player will be done via EMB. Gold will only be purchased to deal with NPCs. Thus defeating your purpose of the Gold / EMB exchange rate.

But otherwise, I LOVE your idea. It was very cool to read, and i would love to play it, etc.

And, yeah, DAOC rocked! GO MIDGARD! Only true realm!

Just some ideas. Hope they help...

Sincerely,

Kelemit
 

  First let me say, thanks for taking the time to read over what I wrote and taking the time to comment on it. I really do appricaiate the time that a few of you have taken to offer your praise and critisizim…..
Now, on to it…..

Talingard,

I really like your idea, and its very cool, but you still have a faucet and drain system, pretty much, and gold is still recieved from NPCs.

Coin doesn't come from monsters or quest givers directly. It comes as a result of trade of a specific raw material (EBM) that is given to equally players in a specific amount over time..

Before you get all angry at me, let me explain.

I don’t get angry when people take their time to offer their point of view, though given the mentality of many posters it dosen't suprise me that you might assume that I would get mad.….

EMB=gold. Gold = EMB.
Yes, coin and EMB are one in the same. That is, coin is a representation of a certain quantity of EMB. The actual amount is determined by the exchange rate of coin to EMB at any given time

Players get EMB by killing other players. Those other players get EMB from killing.... other players. So its just a loop. The initial source of EMB is from... doing time consuming tasks (anything you want, you say) that proves you are playing a game.
There are two ways to obtain EMB that is not native to the realm that your character is from. The first is to be successful in PvP is to win more in PvP than you loose to players of similar power.
The second is to obtain raw materials that are in demand and sell them on the games market and use your wealth to exchange for EMB at the realms bank.
The part about “time consuming task” is simply a mechanic to prevent a player from creating a second account in another realm and not playing and earning EMB. The “tasks” are things that players do naturally in the course of regular game play. It could be moving from one place to another, crafting, fighting in PvP or PvP or any one of a thousand things that demonstrates that a player is actually playing the game and not simply trying to earn EMB for doing nothing. Guild leaders may be able to set their own requirements.

Thus, the ORIGINAL SOURCE of EMB is from going out and PVE-ing (and some PVPing if you include PVP as a "time consuming task"). You go out, kill monsters, loot (or skin / debone it, etc) harvest, etc. But you don't pick up a loot back from the ground with the "gold" in it. You pick up your gold at the local bank (or guild house? Or however you plan to do it) for just being on. Thus, the original source of EMB IS from the NPC / world.

PvE would be an indirect source of EMB, just like my job is an indirect source of the money I make. The amount of coin you earn for killing a mob will depend on the demand of the raw material that mob is a source of. In WOW, DaoC, AoC…ect….ect I kill a mob I have a random chance of earning a specific amount of coin and maybe an item. The amount of coin or the chance that I earn an item isn’t impacted by the state of the overall economy. That is, I have the same chance to earn cion or a drop, even if the economy is over inflated with items and money. In my system it does matter because mobs don’t give cash they give raw materials, the value of which is determined by the player market.

You do say the amount of EMB is controlled by the developers, or by automated formulas that make sure amount of EMB is kept at a decent lvl in comparison to the number of active players currently on.
This is a mechanic that is hard to predict exactly how it will work once put into practice. Should I add a fixed amount of EMB for each active player in the game and adjust the amount as the player’s character becomes more powerful? Or should I just look at the economy as a whole and adjust the amount based on the value of the commodities currently circulating in the game (GDP)? Frankly I’m not sure yet, I’m sure that both ideas have their positives and negatives.

But honestly, you can do the same thing with gold dropped from NPCs. Just simply have your automated formulas running, and the gold dropped from NPCs is automatically fluctuated as per the amount of gold the developers want in the game (even at a per player basis).

NPC’s are stupid and players easily adapt to the most complicated mobs. How many times have you played a new “end boss” and been wiped 10 times before learning all the little tactics. The Mob doesn’t adapt to your tactics, eventually virtually every trip to the uber boss yields tons of coin and uber items. This in turn leads to inflation of both money and items, to which the only solution is to create new content or expansions where new more powerful items hidden in new hard to reach places guarded by new mobs with complex mechanics. Within just a few weeks web sites detailing the type and location of all the new items and detailed explanations of how to be the new uber mobs….

In my concept players guard EMB, not mobs. The PvE element and the amount of money made selling dragon scales isn’t infinite. If PvE’ers saturate the market with raw materials, thus driving the cost down for each unit, his leads to an increase of finished items (deflation). The market reacts by increasing the exchange rate thus giving more coin to each player. Thus players are less likely to use EMB to make finished items and more likely to use cash to make purchases. This of course tips the scales in the other direction towards inflation. The idea is not to have a perfect balance between the two. I expect that it will operate the same as our government. There will be peaks on one end and peaks on the other and the cycle from one to the other will continue endlessly. The point is that neither inflation or deflation will (hopefully) ever be allowed to spiral out of control.

EMB loss is pretty much the same as gold loss for death like in most games (DAOC did this by making players pay to have their stats returned to their max lvl at a static amount per stat point per level of the character.) Just change this to a "percentage" as you have for EMB and you have the same thing!

I think your oversimplifying the idea. It really depends on the value of coin in the game. I happened to play DaoC, and was for the first three years easily in the top three in the character I chose. I had at one point hundreds of plat, the value of coin to me was very little and there were very few players that could compete with me either in combat or in money. I was an example of a person who eschewed the economy for everyone else. In DaoC the money paid was a drain lost to the game. In my concept, most of the EMB lost is lost to other players. In DaoC once you obtained an item it was yours, you owned it, almost forever. Unless you count the pitiful level of decay of which most games have gotten rid of all together.

As for your claim that this is a cycle, and not a faucet and drain. The fact is that the amount of EMB that goes back to the players is not related to how much EMB was "lost" (ie returned to the world) but by how much EMB there is in comparison to the total number of players. Thus, even if a HUGE battle took place and a MASSIVE amount of EMB was lost (hundreds of thousands of players died hundreds of times in a massive free for all to the death, thus 90% of your population of players lost 60 ~ 80% of their EMB in ALL their weapons / armor), but the population of your world was cut by 90% the next day (all the people committed suicide / quit the game because they lost all ther EMB), your system would actually LOWER the amount of EMB available to be gained because the 10% left of your population would still have their massive amount of EMB, plus all the items from the 90% who quit (with all their miscellaneous / extra / "2nd teir" max EMB items left in the vaults all over the world) would end up showing your world would be MASSIVELY over the limit for EMB existing in player useable form. So even though your world got back about 60~ 70% of all EMB that had been harvested since game creation, EMB harvesting lvls would be even lower the next day!!

That was a little hard to decipher. But let me see if this clears anything up…..You said “Thus, even if a HUGE battle took place and a MASSIVE amount of EMB was lost (hundreds of thousands of players died hundreds of times in a massive free for all to the death, thus 90% of your population of players lost 60 ~ 80% of their EMB in ALL their weapons / armor)”
Remember that a player loses most of his EMB to other players not the game. So of the 68-80% of EMB lost that day, only a fraction would be lost as decay to the game (the exact amount of decay, if any at all would have to be determined though testing). The winners of the battle would be those that won more than they lost against players of equal or great power (I haven’t really discussed the group dynamic because of its complexity but the system would take group dynamics into account).
If there is decay in the combat potion of the system, the amount returned to the world only return to players over time. Thus if you were one of the players in the massive battle who lost more than you won, it might take several weeks to earn back what you lost (and then you would only earn back EMB from your home realm). But nothing stops you from changing your tactics and trying to become a better player and trying to take more than you lose from other players.

Now, is this a bad thing? NO! Is it necessary? YES! Is it likely that this incredibly rare event would occur? BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Seriously?? HAHAHA! NEVER!
But, I use it to illustrate my point. It is not a cycle, it is a faucet and drain, with the faucet controlled by the developers via throttling your "oil wells" of EMB or opening them up a bit to increase EMB in the world.

The system is neither true F&D nor a true closed loop, it is a hybrid system that incorporates elements of both systems.

A true cycle has a FINITE amount of materials, and how much CAN be extracted is never in relation to population. (Speed of extraction, sure, but 100% of available materials can always be extracted regardless of population of 1 or population of 100000000). Once that finite amount is reached, no more will ever be extracted until that material is returned to the world. At which point, the whole amount returned can be extracted once again.

Closed loops don’t work because the amount originally placed in the world has to assume a certain population. If the population is lower than the amount originally assumed, there will be inflation. If the population is higher, then deflation will set in.

My system adjusts to the number of players over time to try to keep the total value of the economy in line with population. The most unrealistic part of the system has to do with the economy itself, but my hope is that those elements can be explained though cleaver fiction and in the end will make a moer challenging game over a longer period of time.

Is this a good idea for an MMO... no! This requires some people to be always poor... BOOO!

No matter what you do, there will always be poor players, the challenge to to prevent huge disparities between the top 20% and the bottom 20%. I have already thought about this and I deal with it in another mechanic I didn’t include in my presentation.

SO your CONTROLLED faucet and drain is the best idea, I think.

I call it hybrid F&D or hybrid closed loop, but your description is accurate… :)

Secondly, separating EMB and Gold to create a currency exchange that can be modified / used to fight each other and thus used to help control each other is great, but will it fail? Especially if EMB can be "carried" and "traded" by the players. They will just simply ignore gold and pay for everything straight up with EMB. Gold will only be held in minor amounts to buy / trade with NPCs and to use the auction house if the auction house ONLY allows purchasing with GOLD. At which point, players may put their items up for ridiculous amounts of Gold, give their name, and price in EMB then "send" items back and for via the in game mail system for the appropriate amount of EMB, thus destroying your attempt at regulating EMB by making gold an exchange.

“Especially if EMB can be "carried" and "traded" by the players” This is the real question isn’t it. The answer to which has to be that the movement of raw EMB from one place to another has to have one of two elements. 1: Very high risk or 2: Logistically difficult, perhaps even both? Since coin can’t be taken directly, then it is the safest/ easiest way to move EMB from one place to another. Also, if the markets deal in coin-of-the-realm then that further encourages players to exchange for coin. However having said that, I have no problem allowing players to trade in EMB.

The one way to fix this may be to make it so that Gold is stored in a bank vault, and payment can be given via "checks." and then NPCs take their "checks" to the bank to withdraw their gold (of course, players would never see this) but it would be an "excuse" / game world idea to explain why players carry no gold.

But if players carry EMB, then EMB can be dropped and looted when you are killed, thus, it is ALWAYS best to trade your EMB in for gold as soon as you can, and NEVER carry EMB... BUt then EMB has to take up ALOT of space in players vaults, so that they don't just store the EMB and NOT trade it to gold.
But, the way your current system works, WHY would ANY player trade EMB for gold. Emb is much more valuable than Gold, and thus should always be kept, regardless of exchange rate, and all trades Player to Player will be done via EMB. Gold will only be purchased to deal with NPCs. Thus defeating your purpose of the Gold / EMB exchange rate.

But otherwise, I LOVE your idea. It was very cool to read, and i would love to play it, etc.
And, yeah, DAOC rocked! GO MIDGARD! Only true realm!

True story, I hunted Yggdra Forest so much, there was a guild that formed just to protect the realm gate from me and people that would follow me there.
Another true story….A guild in Midguard left and came to Hybirnia. I got to know them all and to a person I had, at one time or another killed them all….lol

Thanks for the great response!!

Just some ideas. Hope they help...
Sincerely,
Kelemit

In reply, Talingrad, I think we both agree on the 2nd set, about what your system is, a hybrid, and I think we even somewhat agree on what you said about how players will react to EMB.  If you do allow EMB carrying to be high risk, ie, "free" EMB that hasn't been embedded into a weapon or armor yet can be stolen, then sure, that would work.

So, I think we agree with those things, but the system is still set up that players get their EMB from the world.  But how it is gotten is not by killing monsters or doing tasks, that is true.  It doesn't change the fact that it is recieved ultimately from the world.

But now, those who get money are going to be ones who are in the world longest.  The longer you play, the more money you get, etc.

You do say that the wealth that enters the world is compared to the wealth already in players hands as well as the number of players playing.  Great.  But you could do the exact same thing as DAoC, and just set it up that wealth that drops from monsters is compared to the total wealth in the world and the total number of players, then the monster will drop more or less coin.

Even item drops can be set up the same way, comparing the wealth in the world, and the number of those specific objects (even maybe??) and raise and lower the percentage chance of the item dropping as well.

Again, it ends up being the same system.  Control the amount of wealth coming into the system FROM THE WORLD!  True, your's is controlled, DAoC, Wow, Aion, and everything else out there is not controlled.

I guess I didn't explain myself well.

But if your game were to start "today" and new players logged in, the vaults would all be empty of EMB, players would have no EMB.  If one of our enterprising players new about how good EMB was and went out into the newbie areas of the OTHER empires and killed the newbs there, he would end up with 0 EMB still, because NONE of those players HAVE any EMB to loose to a PVP hunter.  

The next day he logs on again, and does it again, but again, ends up with zero, because most of these people probably still haven't choined a guild to begin gaining EMB.

By three weeks, he probably STILL has 0 EMB even though he has been PVPing the whole time.  In contrast, the people who have been PVEing and joined a guild, would probably start gaining some EMB from your "oil wells" which draw the emb from... a magical source that is infiinte (but controlled by the devs).  These newbs, having been hunted for the last 3 weeks, will leave all their EMB in their vaults back at the bank, and your PVPing person will still have 0.

Emb thus does not come from PVP, it comes from the world.  PVP is a 2ndary source of emb, the main source, original source, is from the world.  PVP just is a source where you COULD get lots of it quickly by "STEALING" it from someone else.  Its not the source of EMB.

Quibbling, maybe, but it can have a huge impact on gameplay.  People who want EMB will then simply do this.  Play the game as they want to, then when they need to log off / sleep / quit, then they will strip their player naked, put all their stuff in the vault, teleport (if there is a teleport system, probably is) out into the middle of the ocean where there are no mobs and almost no one will ever see you.  Put autorun on the toon, put a rock on the left or right turn key, or something similar, and run / swim in circles for the other 12 ~ 20 hours a day they do not / cannot play.

When they come back, the will have made huge amounts of EMB, safe back in storage at the vault / guild house / etc, and all they risked was a bit of exp (if exp loss from death) or gold (if gold loss from death) or nothing lost at all.  THe safest way, and gauranteed way, to make EMB. 

Second gauranteed way is to run around with the best equipment on that DOESN"T have any EMB bonus to it, and kill a bunch of people, running out to die again and again because... you don't loose anything.  ONce you get some EMB, run back and deposit, or ship it by mail to a mule at closest mailbox, then go out and do it again.

EMB is not gained from PVP, it is just recycled from another player who originally got it from.... the magic EMB well.

I REALLY REALLY like your system, but EMB, and ultimately gold, is still recieved from a magic never ending well.  The only difference is that yours is controlled, other MMOs are not.  The other MMO's could keep there system exactly as they have it now, but make it so that NPCs that give out / drop gold do so on a percentage that is controlled by a formula that compares it to the current wealth in the world vs the amount of players in the world, thus creating a controlled F&C, or a hybrid, just like yours.

If EMB was truly to be gained from PVP, then EMB must be "magically generated" from PVP.  THE ONLY SOURCE of gaining EMB is from killing players.  IE, killing a player gives a certain amount of EMB, completely unrelated to the amount of EMB lost by the dieing player.  So, even if the player has 0 EMB on him, the killing player will still get some EMB, somehow.  Sorta like RvR points in DAoC.  The only way to get realm points from DAoC was killing players.

Your system, the only way to get EMB is from the EMB well, or kill other people who have EMB on them who got it from an EMB well.  Ergo, ultimate source is the EMB well, and ultimate source of money = time online.  THe longer you play, the wealthier you get.

Thats going to be hard on the casual players, especially those of families who have members who want to use the computer, too, etc.

just some ramifactions of your system.

-Kelemit

 In reply, Talingrad, I think we both agree on the 2nd set, about what your system is, a hybrid, and I think we even somewhat agree on what you said about how players will react to EMB. If you do allow EMB carrying to be high risk, ie, "free" EMB that hasn't been embedded into a weapon or armor yet can be stolen, then sure, that would work.

So, I think we agree with those things, but the system is still set up that players get their EMB from the world. But how it is gotten is not by killing monsters or doing tasks, that is true. It doesn't change the fact that it is recieved ultimately from the world.

But now, those who get money are going to be ones who are in the world longest. The longer you play, the more money you get, etc.

Actually, if two players meet the minimum requirements (as I said before, they are simple things that virtually any player who plays a few hours a week can do, for the sake of argument let’s say any player that plays 20 hours a month) they will be given the same amount of EMB from 1 realm (the realm they belong too).
The reason that one player has more EMB than another is based how players interact in the world, some will PvP and earn other types of EMB from other players. Foreign sources of EMB will be in high demand in most realms and will sell for good money. Other will PvE and, depending on how well they do (presumably players killed in PvE will lose EMB, i.e. money, so the success of PvE will be based on the amount of EMB lost (which as I said equates directly to a $$$ figure) vs. how much the raw material earned in PvE can be sold for and ultimately how much EMB a player can purchase with it.

You do say that the wealth that enters the world is compared to the wealth already in players hands as well as the number of players playing. Great. But you could do the exact same thing as DAoC, and just set it up that wealth that drops from monsters is compared to the total wealth in the world and the total number of players, then the monster will drop more or less coin.

Here is where your missing the point. Part of what makes this concept different is that there is a form of wealth that is in the hands of the players. Players will earn money doing what it is they want to do. Some people enjoy PvP. There is nothing in virtually any game (save Eve) that players can earn in PvP that is part of the world economy. Players will have fortresses that protect their source of EMB and for once players will have a REAL reason to attack and defend them. Failure to protect means an interruption in your supply of EMB. Attacking an enemy fortress means potentially winning EMB that you have no access too.
The point is, is that PLAYERS not MONSTERS are between what you want. Earning EMB means more money and more powerful items, losing it means less money and less powerful items. For once player success is based on more than just time spent grinding against an AI. Most games are based on the “something given” principle. Very rarely (again the exception being Eve) is it about “something lost”. In my concept players can affect each other’s success. In DaoC you could not.

Even item drops can be set up the same way, comparing the wealth in the world, and the number of those specific objects (even maybe??) and raise and lower the percentage chance of the item dropping as well.

That is a possible solution to the problem. www.flyingscythemonkey.com gives a fantastic presentation on MMORPG economics and suggests that as a solution to the problem. It’s a viable one, just not what I wanted to accomplish.

Again, it ends up being the same system. Control the amount of wealth coming into the system FROM THE WORLD! True, your's is controlled, DAoC, Wow, Aion, and everything else out there is not controlled.

I guess I didn't explain myself well.

But if your game were to start "today" and new players logged in, the vaults would all be empty of EMB, players would have no EMB. If one of our enterprising players new about how good EMB was and went out into the newbie areas of the OTHER empires and killed the newbs there, he would end up with 0 EMB still, because NONE of those players HAVE any EMB to loose to a PVP hunter.

The next day he logs on again, and does it again, but again, ends up with zero, because most of these people probably still haven't choined a guild to begin gaining EMB.

By three weeks, he probably STILL has 0 EMB even though he has been PVPing the whole time. In contrast, the people who have been PVEing and joined a guild, would probably start gaining some EMB from your "oil wells" which draw the emb from... a magical source that is infiinte (but controlled by the devs). These newbs, having been hunted for the last 3 weeks, will leave all their EMB in their vaults back at the bank, and your PVPing person will still have 0.

Emb thus does not come from PVP, it comes from the world. PVP is a 2ndary source of emb, the main source, original source, is from the world. PVP just is a source where you COULD get lots of it quickly by "STEALING" it from someone else. Its not the source of EMB.

This is a concern and one that I have given a lot of thought to. There are a few solutions to this problem.
1: Give each starting player a small amount of EMB. To prevent exploitation, you prevent players from creating more than one account per week, month, whatever.
2: You could open a “pre-game” similar to what Dark and Light did. They opened a small portion of their world to players who pre-order. Let the pregame run a few weeks and allow those players to player in a world with different mechanics where EMB can be earned in different ways. Then allow them to bring their EMB/ money into the world to jumpstart your economy.

Quibbling, maybe, but it can have a huge impact on gameplay. People who want EMB will then simply do this. Play the game as they want to, then when they need to log off / sleep / quit, then they will strip their player naked, put all their stuff in the vault, teleport (if there is a teleport system, probably is) out into the middle of the ocean where there are no mobs and almost no one will ever see you. Put autorun on the toon, put a rock on the left or right turn key, or something similar, and run / swim in circles for the other 12 ~ 20 hours a day they do not / cannot play.

When they come back, the will have made huge amounts of EMB, safe back in storage at the vault / guild house / etc, and all they risked was a bit of exp (if exp loss from death) or gold (if gold loss from death) or nothing lost at all. THe safest way, and gauranteed way, to make EMB.

Again your assuming that simply being in the world earns your stipend of EMB. Remember I said there were simple but time consuming tasks that each player has to do to earn their share. I want to reiterate that these tasks whatever they will be will be a normal part of game play. The point is simply to prevent a person from creating 2-3 accounts and do exactly what you just suggested. That won’t work, they will have to play the game to earn EMB. In the end it should be just as easy, and a lot more fun, to play the game the way it was intended. Being logged in, in the world is not going to be one of the prerequisites for earning your realms stipend of EMB.

Second gauranteed way is to run around with the best equipment on that DOESN"T have any EMB bonus to it, and kill a bunch of people, running out to die again and again because... you don't loose anything. ONce you get some EMB, run back and deposit, or ship it by mail to a mule at closest mailbox, then go out and do it again.

If you can kill players with weapons that have no bonuses on them, then you deserve all the EMB you get. But try that in DaoC, WoW, or any other game that has enchantments on your weapons. I remember there was a guy, really early on in DaoC who had leveled to 50 faster than most. I was level 45 or so. He was dancing around naked, I guess showing off the fact that he had nothing to worry about. With my Ranger (OP at the time) I critted him for almost 2k. I quickly killed him (his first death on the server). The point is, running around naked or with “normal” weapons and armor in most games will get you killed.

EMB is not gained from PVP, it is just recycled from another player who originally got it from.... the magic EMB well.

4 out of the 5 types of EMB come from other players who are given a stipend for meeting minimum requirements. Yes the root of EMB comes from the world, but each player only has access to one source, so from the players point of view 4 of 5 types, come from other players.

I REALLY REALLY like your system, but EMB, and ultimately gold, is still recieved from a magic never ending well. The only difference is that yours is controlled, other MMOs are not. The other MMO's could keep there system exactly as they have it now, but make it so that NPCs that give out / drop gold do so on a percentage that is controlled by a formula that compares it to the current wealth in the world vs the amount of players in the world, thus creating a controlled F&C, or a hybrid, just like yours.

I'm glad you like it!  :)

If EMB was truly to be gained from PVP, then EMB must be "magically generated" from PVP. THE ONLY SOURCE of gaining EMB is from killing players. IE, killing a player gives a certain amount of EMB, completely unrelated to the amount of EMB lost by the dyeing player. So, even if the player has 0 EMB on him, the killing player will still get some EMB, somehow. Sorta like RvR points in DAoC. The only way to get realm points from DAoC was killing players.

That is the reason that players are given EMB, they will use it to create better weapons and armor. Anyone who doesn’t should get used to being killed a lot. Generating EMB from thin air means that players won’t have to protect their source and raid other players sources. Something I wanted to incorporate.

Your system, the only way to get EMB is from the EMB well, or kill other people who have EMB on them who got it from an EMB well. Ergo, ultimate source is the EMB well, and ultimate source of money = time online. THe longer you play, the wealthier you get.

Play does not guarantee EMB. All things being equal, if you lose more often than you win then you will have less EMB, not more. PvE is an opportunity to earn EMB by selling raw materials gained there. Take the cash, exchange for EMB and head out to PvP. Not everyone will be able to make their living in PvP, that’s kind of the point. But for those “skilled” players they will make a living in PvP.

Thats going to be hard on the casual players, especially those of families who have members who want to use the computer, too, etc.

I admit the game dosen’t solve every problem, but the concept wasn't designed to appeal the the widest audience. In the end one of the design goals should be to determine how many hours a player should have to play over a month to earn their cap in EMB. 10hrs a month? 20hrs per month? Again the mechanic is simply to prevent 95% of players from creating multiple accounts and earning EMB by having two PCs and two characters from different realms. It’s not possible to stop everyone, I just need to prevent enough that it doesn’t have a discernable impact on the game.

just some ramifactions of your system.
-Kelemit

Ok,

You explained alot of things, and I understand it alot more and agree now.

But I still have one last question, which still relates to my original point:  the ultimate source of EMB.

Something you said made a "click" in my brain and I think I understand, but I have to clarify.

The gaining of foreign EMB, if I understand correctly, can be traded with any player in the game?  Or only with players from the same realm / kingdom as you?

ie:  you can store up some good amount of EMB, give it to an alt, then run to a foreign country / capital, then send your EMB to yourself from your alt, and sell it / trade it to a person from a foreign realm.

Basically, the question is, can people from foreign groups / kingdoms trade the emb with each other, or is it like DAoC where any trade, chat, or communication (except emotes) between realms was impossible.  If so, then yes, 4/5 emb sources are only from RvR / PVP.

But I seem to remember saying that all emb can be traded by all players.  Am I right in understanding that?  If not, then you may wish to explain in your slide show that there is no trade / communication between realms.

If there is no trade between realms, then I think you've got it nailed down.

Sincerely,

Kelemit

PS:  Also, in regards to need to gain EMB and your ideas of letting a "pre-order" play and win EMB a different way before you start this method, you dont' have to worry about it.  It will work.

Most people will not craft or PVP much at all at the beginning, and EMB to be gained will be first gained by the initial realms anyway.  Initial actions of players will be to run out and PVE to learn the ropes.  Initial actions of the crafter will be to go out and harvest raw sources from either nodes or easily harvested animals that do not require high lvl combat skills.  Initial actions of PVP people will be to learn the game a bit form PVE.  After about 2 ~ 4 weeks, crafters WILL begin to have the materials necessary to craft.  They will  have some raw resources and EMB of their own.  They can begin to craft and will do so.  PVPers will begin looking for that extra edge by purchasing EMB enabled weapons, and they will have EMB to give to the EMB crafters who can take the mundane crafters output to begin doing it.

The only thing that you may want to do is to allow EMB to be gained more quickly initially, for maybe the first week or so, then taper it off quickly.

PSS:  Sigh, just realized something.  You made a comment that there will be a "max" amount of EMB earned for a set time period based on a minimum amount of game play.  Not sure if you intend to do it daily, or weekly, or monthtly.  ie:  put in the minimum hour per day, get the EMB allowance for that day.  Or put in the minimum hours for a week, get the EMB allowance for that week.  But, still the same problem I said before, people will just purchase 3 ~ 5 accounts, and play the minimum time needed (if it is weekly, then they will do the 4 hours they need a week, or something) then shift all of it to their main.  I guess thats not too big of a deal / problem... but, might need to figure that out.  Not sure how you would do it thought... lol :D

Thats a great point.  Something that got lost in several re-writes.  I'll make sure and put it back.

If I thought that it couldn't be abused then trading between realms would be a neat, but we both know that people would abuse the concept of inter-realm trade.  I'm still trying to think of ways that players could trade on a limited basis.  But I think it would be pretty difficult to prevent players from abusing it.

I fianlly took a really hard lok at the slides you posted and like the concept, it is a bit dry through. I thought about pooring some cravey on it but that would ruin the PDF.

Honestly it seems like you have put a lot of thought into it and worked out a number of potential bugs. The one on that keeps haunting me is the fluctuation of EBM and Gold values. You did mention something about looking at the population and EBM statisics weekly. Is there some way that you could make this an automatic ajustment as aposed to consuming Dev. resorces? 

Originally posted by arieschild

I fianlly took a really hard lok at the slides you posted and like the concept, it is a bit dry through. I thought about pooring some cravey on it but that would ruin the PDF.

Honestly it seems like you have put a lot of thought into it and worked out a number of potential bugs. The one on that keeps haunting me is the fluctuation of EBM and Gold values. You did mention something about looking at the population and EBM statisics weekly. Is there some way that you could make this an automatic ajustment as aposed to consuming Dev. resorces? 

Thanks for the positive comments.  I tried to keep it visually interesting.  

As far as an automatic ajustment, I agree that it should be automatic.  Dev input should only be needed to correct unforseen, dire circumstances.  Predictability is something that players find important, constant dev interference would just lead to accusations about dev intentions by those whose positions are negitively impacted by dev decisions.

The equation Price=Money x Velocity / Quantity could be used to determine the price level within the game.  Adjustments to the exchange rate could coincide with the price level within the game.  But the truth is this is something that would have to shown to work in testing. 

Yes, Players do expect a great deal of predictability reguardles of what game they are playing. E.G. Player 'A' kills Mob 1 and turns on Mob 2. No player would expect that Mob 1 might explode and kill Player 'A' along with Mob 2 unless previously informed of such things.

This holds true for the Ecconomy, the majority of players don't want to know how it works. Thye simply want to know that it works and they will get thier share of the funds when they perform the aporpriate action. This brings us to the problem of not "Does it work?" but rather How Well does it work? 

The only solution that I can find in developing my own Economic system is to give the players "nearly" every thing they can want and use then sit back and work on other content. The only time the Dev. staff should step in is when the Ecconomy has become so poor that it can not sustain an individual player. Even at that point it might be more benificial to let the players sort things out on thier own and create a Bartering system. In the end if the game turns to a Player created bartering system you know that it will be sustainable and any player manipulation will most likly be met with consiquencies such as being repeatedly killed off and thusly sustainable and managable.

Granted this is only my openion, and does not hold true for a game like Eve in where Every player holds an equal chance to influance the Economy from top to bottom.