Originally posted by Trenchgun

Originally posted by parrotpholk

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Originally posted by parrotpholk

The only one you could maybe debate is the combat requiring tatics part but other than that very cut and dry. Grats

 

There is no really debating that combat does require tactics both in PvE and PvP. You may not have personally experienced it yet, but it's there, and an essential part of battle amongst non-newbs.

 

When I have played it I havent really seen any being used. I guess its a matter who has seen or done what. The people i encountered was pretty much whack a mole.

 

Like I said, just because you haven't learned the more subtle aspects of combat, and don't associate with people who know how to do anything else, doesn't mean it isn't out there.

Teamwork and tactics are what allows my guild to take on an enemy twice their size, without having superior equipment or levels.

It certainly is not a whack a mole game when you are being chased by an enemy an horseback, but your team formulates a plan to lure them away from the safety of their keep, up a hill, and then positions themselves behind cover with bows ready to attack them once they get near, slaughtering their mounts and then hopping on your own to finish them off. That's just one example of an endless variety of things that happen everyday for us.

Tactics in a game is not defined by how many buttons you have to press to attack; Tactics is about using things other than your weapons to gain a significant advantage over the enemy; like superior teamwork, terrain, manuever, confusion, etc. Things which don't normally play any role at all in MMO PvP, but are more commonly found in tactical FPS games.

There's also a whole other strategic layer to the game; The economics of attritional war, raiding the enemy's harvesters, setting up engagements to kill off their soldiers so they lose a lot of equipment, raidng to sack their buildings, forming strategic alliances, making morale destroying moves to help drive people out of the guild or undermine their alliances. War in darkfall is a strategic process, not a simple siege.

As someone who has played WW2OL for years (which as a realistic war simulator on an MMO scale, is completely unrivaled in it's level of tactics and teamwork on top of it's strategic layer), I can attest to the fact that there exists in darkfall a very high level of tactics and strategy to the game - Far more than I've ever seen in the pvP of any other MMORPG.
 

It WW2OL it may only take one button to fire your rifle, but in a theorhetical battle between nothing but rifleman that doesn't mean the batlle will play out like that that carnival game where you shoot BBs at targets that pop up. To think such a thing is to simply be ignorant of all the tactics and teamwork that such a game is really capable of allowing.

You just in a long winded response described literally any game with pvp and your tactics. Any game in pvp that uses teamwork, terrain, manuever, confusion etc will win. How you think it s a FPS original. There is nothing special to DFO combat and whack-a-mole is right to a certain extent to most games. Just DFO does it better or worse however you want to look at it.

Originally posted by downtoearth

Originally posted by Prankster

I agree with the OP on everything except the part about the tactical management of battles. %'s prove out that most of the DF battles happen between 4-5 friends and 1 maybe 2 enemies at which case its a simple minded button mashing fest. Yes in larger scale battles against foes using tactic's with result in a more tactical battle but it it not the norm.

PVE is also very substandard.

That being said the game is OK. I played for 3 months In the end it was mind-numbingly redundant 80% of the time.

 

true lets hope av keeps improving the game

This I love the game, melee combat could use tweaks/polish or movements, and balancing is in order, they lowered the grind lots and keep on adding content. They just need to keep it up.

Originally posted by Prankster

I agree with the OP on everything except the part about the tactical management of battles. %'s prove out that most of the DF battles happen between 4-5 friends and 1 maybe 2 enemies at which case its a simple minded button mashing fest. Yes in larger scale battles against foes using tactic's with result in a more tactical battle but it it not the norm.

PVE is also very substandard.

That being said the game is OK. I played for 3 months In the end it was mind-numbingly redundant 80% of the time.

It certainly is the norm for my clan. 5 guys would be the bare minimum we send out on resource raiding parties.

NA1 has been up for less than two weeks but already I've been a part of four major battles (like 40-80 people total), alliance vs alliance conflicts.

Team PvP happens everyday in our clan in the form of raids and defensive operations, but sometimes they escalate into full blown conflict between guilds or alliances.

@Trenchgun

I'm still waiting your reply about something you were posting elsewhere. Here's the link:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/4/view/forums/post/2976012#2976012

I'm interested in what you have to say. Please answer.

Originally posted by Leucent

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Originally posted by parrotpholk

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Originally posted by parrotpholk

The only one you could maybe debate is the combat requiring tatics part but other than that very cut and dry. Grats

 

There is no really debating that combat does require tactics both in PvE and PvP. You may not have personally experienced it yet, but it's there, and an essential part of battle amongst non-newbs.

 

When I have played it I havent really seen any being used. I guess its a matter who has seen or done what. The people i encountered was pretty much whack a mole.

 

Like I said, just because you haven't learned the more subtle aspects of combat, and don't associate with people who know how to do anything else, doesn't mean it isn't out there.

Teamwork and tactics are what allows my guild to take on an enemy twice their size, without having superior equipment or levels.

It certainly is not a whack a mole game when you are being chased by an enemy an horseback, but your team formulates a plan to lure them away from the safety of their keep, up a hill, and then positions themselves behind cover with bows ready to attack them once they get near, slaughtering their mounts and then hopping on your own to finish them off. That's just one example of an endless variety of things that happen everyday for us.

Tactics in a game is not defined by how many buttons you have to press to attack; Tactics is about using things other than your weapons to gain a significant advantage over the enemy; like superior teamwork, terrain, manuever, confusion, etc. Things which don't normally play any role at all in MMO PvP, but are more commonly found in tactical FPS games.

There's also a whole other strategic layer to the game; The economics of attritional war, raiding the enemy's harvesters, setting up engagements to kill off their soldiers so they lose a lot of equipment, raidng to sack their buildings, forming strategic alliances, making morale destroying moves to help drive people out of the guild or undermine their alliances. War in darkfall is a strategic process, not a simple siege.

As someone who has played WW2OL for years (which as a realistic war simulator on an MMO scale, is completely unrivaled in it's level of tactics and teamwork on top of it's strategic layer), I can attest to the fact that there exists in darkfall a very high level of tactics and strategy to the game - Far more than I've ever seen in the pvP of any other MMORPG.
 

It WW2OL it may only take one button to fire your rifle, but in a theorhetical battle between nothing but rifleman that doesn't mean the batlle will play out like that that carnival game where you shoot BBs at targets that pop up. To think such a thing is to simply be ignorant of all the tactics and teamwork that such a game is really capable of allowing.

 

You just in a long winded response described literally any game with pvp and your tactics. Any game in pvp that uses teamwork, terrain, manuever, confusion etc will win. How you think it s a FPS original. There is nothing special to DFO combat and whack-a-mole is right to a certain extent to most games. Just DFO does it better or worse however you want to look at it.

No other MMORPG has what I described in terms of tactics and teamwork at the level DF does. It's like comparing WW2OL to Battlefield 1942, a newbie might at a gloss think they are basically the same kind of game but anyone with significant experience can tell you they are as far apart as two games can be.

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Understand what the game is then make your own decision.

- This is a guild centric game. It's based around trying to achieve things as part of a group, from the PvP combat itself to the long term goals of city building and economic development. You will not get very far going it alone.

This is DF first mistake. Solo'ing should return less rewards v time . However it needs to be a viable and *fun* option when you play at odd hours or no guildies are on. People go elsewhere into other games. It also shows the first indication of lack of depth in DF.

- There is no set course mapped out for what you should do in the game, either in PvP or PvE. You decide what your goals are and pursue them as you desire. It's an open world to explore with a lot of dynamic player driven conflict where you are crafting your own story as you play it, your own drama through war, politics, and economics.

To be honest I want a sandbox environment. Though it has to be more than a single bucket and spade. DF has not indicated anything to the level of Tasos words. Its just e-peen angst emo bashing of one another. Where is the world politics. Sub factions and factions. Economy. Logistics and trade. Natural disasters. No sorry DF is not sandbox for me. Eve holds the title here still and DF feels like a unreal tournament/ Counter strikes knife fight.

- This is not a theme park game where you are led through a series of hand holding quests from start to finish. That does not mean there is no PvE content, though. The PvE is mainly exploration based, where you set off to find and discover new and interesting sights and enemy encampments, or occasionally something special like a dragon. There is a sense of adventuring out to do and see new things, there just aren't any NPCs to talk with or quests given out to drive things.

I'm glad about this BUT since the above is still true ... it doesn't really help the game

- PvP requires tactics, teamwork, and twitch reflex skill. Moreso then any other MMORPG you've probably played.

I dont feel it does require any meaningful tactics. As an example since a hit behind is only a little more than front there no need for a buddy watching your back in combat. I've seen no formations. No real implementations of weapons. Mount and blade is much better and it is only half way there. DF is more twitched based like a spamming fire game like Unreal Tournament than say something like the Battlefield series. 

-There is a huge strategic element to the game based around economics and infrastructure, which is also why it is so guild centric.

If economics is important why the global banking ?  Goods need to exist wthin the world in a specific place. This is the drive for a lot of politics. For infastructure  bulding in a particular location goods need to be moved there.

-The system of full loot, mount loss, equipment degredation, and guild building destruction adds a lot of personal and collective risk to the game, but this risk has a fundamental impact on the very nature of the game's PvP that greatly enhances the need for teamwork and strategy. The constant degredation of equipment and loss of gear also is essential to driving the economics behind the game, and the economics are a big part of what drives PvP. People play and fight differently in a world where death and destruction mean something. Your adrenaline will probably pump in this game in a way no other game has made it before because of the risk and reward involved.  You will not encounter such feelings in other PvP games where everyone is basically safe and the only thing that ever really gets hurt is pride.

 Full loot was only the tip of the ice berg for this game. Good idea but with global banking and no logistics its simply not a major factor. I wouldn't say remove it but its a very shallow factor in the scheme of things.

-Skilling up your character is an ever ongoing process that you will probably always be involved in because there will always be something to train up. If you are intent on maxing out stuff as fast as possible it can be a big boring grind, but if you just play the game and let the skills level up naturally then you'll find that raw skill level is not that important so long as you're working with friends (both in PvE and PvP).  In that sense the skill system is only as much as a grind as you make it. Skills are not the end all and be all in this game. A relatively new player can still be a useful addition to a team of veterans. Skills aren't unimportant, but it's more accurate to say that skills are just one facet of an equation that determines victory. Tactics and teamwork play a big role. Twitch skills play a role. Equipment plays a big role, and everyone has the ability to use the same equipment  (it's just a matter of what you are willing to risk because the best equipment takes much more time, resources, and effort to acquire). The bottom line is that skills can give you a significant edge if backed up by the other facets, but skils alone aren't a guarantee of anything in this game.

Pity that most players have choosen to macro there skills over and over. Crass statement but its true. Especially given AVs incompetance on release where people just spammed ranged attacks over and over. I believe you have to hit something now ? How did this get missed in beta ?! Did anyone say anything ?  TBH... I see why Eve went for a time based skilling system.

- Harvesting is a big grind. There's no skill involved aside from learning how to avoid death, and all you can do is sit there hitting on trees all day while you watch TV, I wouldn't say other MMORPGs exactly have interesting harvesting, but the difference with darkfall is that  harvesting is a huge part of the game. While theorhetically possible to not harvest  (there are smaller guilds that live entirely off PvE gains and PvP kills to fuel their need for equipment, which in turns fuels their PvP), you're going to need to do a ton of harvesting if you want to craft and your guild is going to need to do a ton of harvesting to get a big city. Harvesting is central to the game's economy and the economy is central to the dynamics driving PvP, so if you're commmited to a guild you may find yourself spending days grinding out resources, broken up occasionally by PvE or PvP content to keep things interesting. The upside is that a beginning harvester's contributions to a guild are still very significant, so you can choose to just let harvesting skill up as it skills and focus on getting the materials you need. For those who don't want to grind resources the only option is to take the gold earned from PvE/PvP and buy resources or buy crafted goods, but it is an option some pursue.

If anything could have been learned it should have been mining in EVE is boring. Evdience AV published early and/or are useless. Oh great a game I can click buttons on while not paying attention and watching TV. Oh joys... 

-It's possible to focus on harvesting and crafting and just make a lot of gold that way. You can be a huge asset to your guild without every picking up a weapon. So in that sense it's like UO where crafting itself can be a powerful and viable path all on it's own; But personally I see crafting and harvesting as a means to an end, the fueling of PvP (but again I can't really say other MMORPGs are different in that respect because crafting is usually just a means to a PvE end).

- This is a long term game that requires a commitment. You get as much out of it as you put in. This is not a casual game. It won't play itself for you. But it also has the potential to be one of the most satisfying MMO experiences you've ever had.

Maybe DF has already failed then? Games should be designed for any level of committment with greater rewards for long play times maybe ? Again a fundamental issue of  MMO design and important for retaining subscriptions of  players. If you don't feel useful or contributing then people leave. The majority of players of MMO contrary to popular belief do not sit at a PC 24/7.

-The graphics are not going to win any awards, but they are also not anything as bad as they are often characterized by haters. The graphics are adequate, and in many cases very nice.

Animations and sound are very poor. Landscape and models not too bad. interaction with slopes is fucking horrible.

-Exploits/cheats have not been a been serious problem on the NA1 server as they have cracked down hard from the start, learning from their EU1 experience. There will always be some floating around in a game like this, as there always is in any competitive online game, but if they can keep it tamped down to a very small group then it shouldn't impact your play experience much at all.

I suspect like many other do that too many unchecked variables are client side. Given the level of increased cheaters I've seen in FPS games over the years I think its probable DF will always suffer this. All we have seen so far is the obvious speed hacks and flying ship cheats. Subtle cheating may never get dectected.

Originally posted by Vaylla

Originally posted by wyrdaskolir

If you don't think skill and tactics is required in darkfall to beat more skilled people then your character is still basic.

Wow, now that is an oxymoron.

How the hell can you have enough skill and tactics to beat someone that is more skilled then you? That is total obsfucation spin at it's best and completely obsequious sycophantic hyperbole.

Wht even make that comment? surely you understood what his meaning was?

I may be wrong but do some people who try to be clever ( and in thier minds probably really think they are intelligent ) seem to come of more dumb than the post they are talking about?

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Originally posted by Leucent

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Originally posted by parrotpholk

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Originally posted by parrotpholk

The only one you could maybe debate is the combat requiring tatics part but other than that very cut and dry. Grats

 

There is no really debating that combat does require tactics both in PvE and PvP. You may not have personally experienced it yet, but it's there, and an essential part of battle amongst non-newbs.

 

When I have played it I havent really seen any being used. I guess its a matter who has seen or done what. The people i encountered was pretty much whack a mole.

 

Like I said, just because you haven't learned the more subtle aspects of combat, and don't associate with people who know how to do anything else, doesn't mean it isn't out there.

Teamwork and tactics are what allows my guild to take on an enemy twice their size, without having superior equipment or levels.

It certainly is not a whack a mole game when you are being chased by an enemy an horseback, but your team formulates a plan to lure them away from the safety of their keep, up a hill, and then positions themselves behind cover with bows ready to attack them once they get near, slaughtering their mounts and then hopping on your own to finish them off. That's just one example of an endless variety of things that happen everyday for us.

Tactics in a game is not defined by how many buttons you have to press to attack; Tactics is about using things other than your weapons to gain a significant advantage over the enemy; like superior teamwork, terrain, manuever, confusion, etc. Things which don't normally play any role at all in MMO PvP, but are more commonly found in tactical FPS games.

There's also a whole other strategic layer to the game; The economics of attritional war, raiding the enemy's harvesters, setting up engagements to kill off their soldiers so they lose a lot of equipment, raidng to sack their buildings, forming strategic alliances, making morale destroying moves to help drive people out of the guild or undermine their alliances. War in darkfall is a strategic process, not a simple siege.

As someone who has played WW2OL for years (which as a realistic war simulator on an MMO scale, is completely unrivaled in it's level of tactics and teamwork on top of it's strategic layer), I can attest to the fact that there exists in darkfall a very high level of tactics and strategy to the game - Far more than I've ever seen in the pvP of any other MMORPG.
 

It WW2OL it may only take one button to fire your rifle, but in a theorhetical battle between nothing but rifleman that doesn't mean the batlle will play out like that that carnival game where you shoot BBs at targets that pop up. To think such a thing is to simply be ignorant of all the tactics and teamwork that such a game is really capable of allowing.

 

You just in a long winded response described literally any game with pvp and your tactics. Any game in pvp that uses teamwork, terrain, manuever, confusion etc will win. How you think it s a FPS original. There is nothing special to DFO combat and whack-a-mole is right to a certain extent to most games. Just DFO does it better or worse however you want to look at it.

No other MMORPG has what I described in terms of tactics and teamwork at the level DF does. It's like comparing WW2OL to Battlefield 1942, a newbie might at a gloss think they are basically the same kind of game but anyone with significant experience can tell you they are as far apart as two games can be.

 

 

 

False. If you ve ever played DAOC, SB, Planetside, etc you would know a good group of people, using teamwork, knowing their abilities(not just button mashing), using terrain, how to manuever, use abilities to disable, disorient etc, then you wouldn t have said such comment. I ve played DFO and I can tell you it takes way more co ordination, and all listed tactics to be a good group and win more then not then DFO does by a long shot. DFO isn t the only game that uses these. Hell IMO anyways it uses it less then any of these games.

Originally posted by shukes33

Originally posted by Vaylla

Originally posted by wyrdaskolir

If you don't think skill and tactics is required in darkfall to beat more skilled people then your character is still basic.

Wow, now that is an oxymoron.

How the hell can you have enough skill and tactics to beat someone that is more skilled then you? That is total obsfucation spin at it's best and completely obsequious sycophantic hyperbole.

 

Wht even make that comment? surely you understood what his meaning was?

I may be wrong but do some people who try to be clever ( and in thier minds probably really think they are intelligent ) seem to come of more dumb than the post they are talking about?

Dear god, I'm glad somebody finally said it, cause I felt the same way about that post.
 

The 'strategic' element in this game is about as deep as it is in any game, however I see alot of games that are much deeper.  Tactics, once again as important in any other game as DF, but you look at tactics as fleeing or holding important points on a map, oh man thats revolutionary no other game has that at all (Hell this was around in DAOC and UO, and its in WAR and WoW, hell if Conan, need I go on?).  'Sandbox' or not, this game suffers from some severe problems yet, including the big one- cheaters - and the most retarded one - nude ganking.  How does the armored up man have a harder time than the nudist swinging his newb weap ill never know.  But I only played for two months and thats was on the EU server and right after launch so I'm sure things have 'improved' by now.  But heres the main problem with DF-  Who wants to spend there money on a game that you can hardly play or compete in?  Yes you can join a guild, but I don't need someone to hold my hand just to go out and kill some goblins do I?  DF thinks I do, I guess.  Sadly, games that allow the player to solo, even a little bit, tend to have alot more success then games that force you to group from day one.  And don't tell me that soloing is an option in DF, maybe if you wanna just fish in town for the whole game, otherwise you need someone to constantly watch your back no matter what, and I mean no matter what your doing.  DF needs some big changes and its not so bad it can't be fixed, but right now your nuts if you think anybody besides the most hardcore (and remember 99% percent of us aren't) are going to stick with this game.  Also, games with bad launches tend to struggle and have a very limited fanbase, don't beleive me look at Vanguard, all the potential in the world, great game now but a bad launch leads to a small fanbase.  But behind Vanguard you have SOE, and behind DF, well you've got AV who really doesn't know what they are doing (ala the terrible beta, late and bad launch, lies to the community about the NA server, so on and so forth).  Also, the community sucks, don't believe me look at the forums on the official website (that wasn't updated til recently, for a few months after the game was launched it still talked about the beta lol). To answer the OP's question about whether to buy or not, I'd say don't waste your money or time, not at this point and probably not ever.  Your better off playing free games or looking into one of the upcoming MMO's than this unless you've got a ton a free time or you plan on cheating your skills up to par with everyone else (or speedhacking which is a good way to get kills too, don't believe me check youtube).  Sadly, I didn't know either or these things were requirements to play and compete, but they never will be for a game I pay to play.