World Of Warcraft is a better PVE PVP game with richer pve touch and basicly a little better than LOTRO.

But due to the social experience ive encountered i will never play Wow agian, LOTRO on line has it all when it comes to the social aspect.

LOTRO is a great game

I'm one of those too that played for a few months, thought it was gorgeous, impressed with the high polish of the client and gameplay in general. Quit however in part due to not likeing the experience of being shoe-horned into a storyline I'm all to familiar with, and also because of the social scene which wasn't as vibrant as I would have liked, though I think that is in part due to the storyline being so static and rigid.

However I'm beginning to think that a vibrant social dynamic is down across the board in MMO's cause frankly not enough people want that anymore.  Times and the genre has changed. For the worse in my opinion, but nothing I can do but not play.

Originally posted by trancejeremy

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

I'm willing to bet most that feel this way probably aren't using the global channels.  A lot seem to use this for grouping albeit would be nice if something besides the glff channel was used by some for babbling away about shit no one else cares about.

Try /joinchannel glff

...and I apologize in advance if you do have one available on your server.

There are probably a lot more on your server as well people use.

 

That's exactly the problem with this game - the game is very clique-ish. If you don't know about or want to use the global channels, there's zero talking in the game. No one ever talks outside of them, except maybe in the Bree area.

Some consider that a feature, not a problem, but I think it really ruins the game, myself. Least friendly MMORPG I've ever played, and I've played a lot of trashy free ones. I've played a year now, I've never had a single conversation with a person, have zero people on my friends list.

(And yes, I actually try talking to people when they are nearby. Evidently if you aren't in their kin or on a global channel, they want nothing to do with you).

In my experience, even being in a Kin doesn't necessarily mean anything, as many Kins I've joined have been very clique-ish as well. There's that core group that does everything together (usually comprised of the leader, officers and their closest friends), and then everyone else is just sorta... there.

If there's a Kin in that game whose members are welcoming and eager to involve new members in activities, for the long term - not just for the first week or so before the novelty wears off and people go back to their normal routines - I'd love to join it. In my experience in LoTRO, though, that's been very difficult to find a group like that.

A friend of mine has tried LoTRO several times... joined kins and left a few weeks later 'cause no one talked... those who did talk would tend to ignore him or anyone else who wasn't in their clique. He tried forming a Kin during one period and worked really hard at making it a fun group where everyone was involved, everyone got help, we'd schedule events to help members finish up quests, books, etc... Didn't make a difference. People didn't participate, barely talked and didn't bother grouping (because you seldom have to in LoTRO). The only time people spoke up is when they needed help... when it came to them being asked to help someone else out, unless there was something in it for them, they weren't interested.

They would eventually leave without a word. Finally he deemed LoTRO "The Anti-Social MMO" and gave up on it completely. I can't say I blame him... I've all but given up on LoTRO largely for the extremely clique-ish and anti-social behavior I've experienced in it.

So yeah... it's easy to say "just join a Kin", but when the kins you join are as anti-social as the general chat channels... kinda hard to remain optimistic.

 

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by trancejeremy

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

I'm willing to bet most that feel this way probably aren't using the global channels.  A lot seem to use this for grouping albeit would be nice if something besides the glff channel was used by some for babbling away about shit no one else cares about.

Try /joinchannel glff

...and I apologize in advance if you do have one available on your server.

There are probably a lot more on your server as well people use.

 

That's exactly the problem with this game - the game is very clique-ish. If you don't know about or want to use the global channels, there's zero talking in the game. No one ever talks outside of them, except maybe in the Bree area.

Some consider that a feature, not a problem, but I think it really ruins the game, myself. Least friendly MMORPG I've ever played, and I've played a lot of trashy free ones. I've played a year now, I've never had a single conversation with a person, have zero people on my friends list.

(And yes, I actually try talking to people when they are nearby. Evidently if you aren't in their kin or on a global channel, they want nothing to do with you).

In my experience, even being in a Kin doesn't necessarily mean anything, as many Kins I've joined have been very clique-ish as well. There's that core group that does everything together (usually comprised of the leader, officers and their closest friends), and then everyone else is just sorta... there.

If there's a Kin in that game whose members are welcoming and eager to involve new members in activities, for the long term - not just for the first week or so before the novelty wears off and people go back to their normal routines - I'd love to join it. In my experience in LoTRO, though, that's been very difficult to find a group like that.

A friend of mine has tried LoTRO several times... joined kins and left a few weeks later 'cause no one talked... those who did talk would tend to ignore him or anyone else who wasn't in their clique. He tried forming a Kin during one period and worked really hard at making it a fun group where everyone was involved, everyone got help, we'd schedule events to help members finish up quests, books, etc... Didn't make a difference. People didn't participate, barely talked and didn't bother grouping (because you seldom have to in LoTRO). The only time people spoke up is when they needed help... when it came to them being asked to help someone else out, unless there was something in it for them, they weren't interested.

They would eventually leave without a word. Finally he deemed LoTRO "The Anti-Social MMO" and gave up on it completely. I can't say I blame him... I've all but given up on LoTRO largely for the extremely clique-ish and anti-social behavior I've experienced in it.

So yeah... it's easy to say "just join a Kin", but when the kins you join are as anti-social as the general chat channels... kinda hard to remain optimistic.

 

I am in a great kinship that has a website with a java-based raid and epic quest organizer....
 

Still - I have been doing 90% of my epic quests with PUG's. Still up to today, I can find a PUG to each and every FS quests whenever I wish to do them. The longest time I waited for a group was over a year ago in Forochel for one of the last epic quests in book 13 or 14 (?) in V1.. it was about an hour.

Normally, it takes 2-15 minutes to find a group. For any quests.

If anyone complains about having a hard time to find groups, it inevitably raises the issue: is he/she trying properly? Does he/she know HOW to do that?

If anyone says they had zero conversation with anyone else in the game - I am sorry, noone in the nine hells could convince me that it is not pure bullshit. OR - that is how this person really wanted things to be.

DB

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by trancejeremy

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

I'm willing to bet most that feel this way probably aren't using the global channels.  A lot seem to use this for grouping albeit would be nice if something besides the glff channel was used by some for babbling away about shit no one else cares about.

Try /joinchannel glff

...and I apologize in advance if you do have one available on your server.

There are probably a lot more on your server as well people use.

 

That's exactly the problem with this game - the game is very clique-ish. If you don't know about or want to use the global channels, there's zero talking in the game. No one ever talks outside of them, except maybe in the Bree area.

Some consider that a feature, not a problem, but I think it really ruins the game, myself. Least friendly MMORPG I've ever played, and I've played a lot of trashy free ones. I've played a year now, I've never had a single conversation with a person, have zero people on my friends list.

(And yes, I actually try talking to people when they are nearby. Evidently if you aren't in their kin or on a global channel, they want nothing to do with you).

In my experience, even being in a Kin doesn't necessarily mean anything, as many Kins I've joined have been very clique-ish as well. There's that core group that does everything together (usually comprised of the leader, officers and their closest friends), and then everyone else is just sorta... there.

If there's a Kin in that game whose members are welcoming and eager to involve new members in activities, for the long term - not just for the first week or so before the novelty wears off and people go back to their normal routines - I'd love to join it. In my experience in LoTRO, though, that's been very difficult to find a group like that.

A friend of mine has tried LoTRO several times... joined kins and left a few weeks later 'cause no one talked... those who did talk would tend to ignore him or anyone else who wasn't in their clique. He tried forming a Kin during one period and worked really hard at making it a fun group where everyone was involved, everyone got help, we'd schedule events to help members finish up quests, books, etc... Didn't make a difference. People didn't participate, barely talked and didn't bother grouping (because you seldom have to in LoTRO). The only time people spoke up is when they needed help... when it came to them being asked to help someone else out, unless there was something in it for them, they weren't interested.

They would eventually leave without a word. Finally he deemed LoTRO "The Anti-Social MMO" and gave up on it completely. I can't say I blame him... I've all but given up on LoTRO largely for the extremely clique-ish and anti-social behavior I've experienced in it.

So yeah... it's easy to say "just join a Kin", but when the kins you join are as anti-social as the general chat channels... kinda hard to remain optimistic.

 

I am in a great kinship that has a website with a java-based raid and epic quest organizer....
 

Still - I have been doing 90% of my epic quests with PUG's. Still up to today, I can find a PUG to each and every FS quests whenever I wish to do them. The longest time I waited for a group was over a year ago in Forochel for one of the last epic quests in book 13 or 14 (?) in V1.. it was about an hour.

Normally, it takes 2-15 minutes to find a group. For any quests.

If anyone complains about having a hard time to find groups, it inevitably raises the issue: is he/she trying properly? Does he/she know HOW to do that?

If anyone says they had zero conversation with anyone else in the game - I am sorry, noone in the nine hells could convince me that it is not pure bullshit. OR - that is how this person really wanted things to be.

DB

In short: "That wasn't my experience, so you're wrong". Is that the gist of what you're saying?

Not quite so cut-and-dry, I'm afraid.

I know what I experienced and I know the frustration we (a friend, his girlfriend and myself) experienced in trying to get Kin members involved with helping each other out, etc. It was an uphill fight the entire time. Everyone wanted to just do their own thing and only spoke up when they needed something.

PUGs weren't any better. I don't know what it's like now, it could have changed. But I know that when I was playing actively, as was my good friend, we *did* try... We used the in-game group functions, we actively sought out people to try and help out... and we'd help out others looking for people. It was the same thing every time. They'd join up only if they needed the same quest(s) we were on, and were gone as soon as they got what they needed; they stuck around only as long as there was something in it for them. There was barely any talking and hardly anyone ever remained in contact afterwards.

I come from FFXI, a game where communication and community are very important to get *a lot* done...  Aside from that, my friend, his girlfriend and I have all also played Lineage 2 for a few yearst, another game where helping other players out and not being "me me me" is quite important as well. So believe me, I know how to go about talking to people and searching for members for groups. None of us are anti-social or lazy about trying to get involved with the community in a given game. We tried to get involved, tried to build and participate in Kinships... We did everything we could, using every in-game function we could. Most people - in our experience - were too wrapped up in their own progress to be bothered.

I don't know what it's like now... maybe it's improved a lot. But at the time, the anti-social, self-centered and clique-ish behavior of many in that game is what drove all three of us away, time and again. It wasn't the game itself... we loved the game, and still do.

Originally posted by WSIMike

 

In short: "That wasn't my experience, so you're wrong". Is that the gist of what you're saying?

No. I am talking about my own experiences, and I am rejecting any "100% the time" comments (like zero conversations in a whole year" as apparent bullshit OR take them as hiding the real intentions.

Not quite so cut-and-dry, I'm afraid.  Agreed, see above.

I know what I experienced and I know the frustration we (a friend, his girlfriend and myself) experienced in trying to get Kin members involved with helping each other out, etc. It was an uphill fight the entire time. Everyone wanted to just do their own thing and only spoke up when they needed something.
 

Are you saying it was 100% of your experience? Since if not, it still sounds like that.

PUGs weren't any better. I don't know what it's like now, it could have changed. But I know that when I was playing actively, as was my good friend, we *did* try... We used the in-game group functions, we actively sought out people to try and help out... and we'd help out others looking for people. It was the same thing every time. They'd join up only if they needed the same quest(s) we were on, and were gone as soon as they got what they needed; they stuck around only as long as there was something in it for them. There was barely any talking and hardly anyone ever remained in contact afterwards.

TBH I don't know either what it's like now, cause all my experiences with PUG's were mostly in 2008, before Moria. Almost never had an issue, apart from the 1-2 FS epic quests in Forochel. Breezed through all 15 volumes of the book within maybe 2 months.

I come from FFXI, a game where communication and community are very important to get *a lot* done...  Aside from that, my friend, his girlfriend and I have all also played Lineage 2 for a few yearst, another game where helping other players out and not being "me me me" is quite important as well. So believe me, I know how to go about talking to people and searching for members for groups. None of us are anti-social or lazy about trying to get involved with the community in a given game. We tried to get involved, tried to build and participate in Kinships... We did everything we could, using every in-game function we could. Most people - in our experience - were too wrapped up in their own progress to be bothered.

I never made the implication that you or your friends would lack social skills. Heck, I am not even saying I have any special ones, or even average. I merely described my own experiences, and from my experiences the implication, that someone who has *constant* issues with communication in the same game, is not doing something as good as possible in that sense.

I don't know what it's like now... maybe it's improved a lot. But at the time, the anti-social, self-centered and clique-ish behavior of many in that game is what drove all three of us away, time and again. It wasn't the game itself... we loved the game, and still do.

To be honest, I do not know either, as most of my grouping was around 8-14 months ago.  But even last time I played (about 2 months ago), I had PUGs doing many quests together in a certain area. To me, it looked like nothing has changed much, or at all. Again - my personal experience, different server, etc.

 

All in all, I will say the same again: my experiences are almost the opposite of yours, but that will not make me say that either me or you are right. What I'm rather saying is that it is definitely possible to socialize, and play with strangers in Lotro (in Snowbourn EU, at least), and with my experiences it is simply impossible to believe statements like "I had zero conversation in this game for a year", since that thing happened so easily and so naturally to myself, that the only 2 options I could imagine from someone stating this is either bullshitting, or (intentionally or not) trying to socialize in an uncommon way.

If you read carefully, there are tons of implications in my posts stating that all this is based on my experiences. Even in my post that you replied to, I have written: "noone in the nine hells will convince me, that someone stating the "zero" comment is not lying or doing something in a totally wrong way.

Sensing the subjectivity already?

DB

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

 

All in all, I will say the same again: my experiences are almost the opposite of yours, but that will not make me say that either me or you are right. What I'm rather saying is that it is definitely possible to socialize, and play with strangers in Lotro (in Snowbourn EU, at least), and with my experiences it is simply impossible to believe statements like "I had zero conversation in this game for a year", since that thing happened so easily and so naturally to myself, that the only 2 options I could imagine from someone stating this is either bullshitting, or (intentionally or not) trying to socialize in an uncommon way.

If you read carefully, there are tons of implications in my posts stating that all this is based on my experiences. Even in my post that you replied to, I have written: "noone in the nine hells will convince me, that someone stating the "zero" comment is not lying or doing something in a totally wrong way.

Sensing the subjectivity already?

DB

Well I figure it's not that way for everyone... I see people who talk about being in great Kinships who do a lot, etc (though I do also wonder if they're part of that "clique" who does everything together... cynical, I know).

I can only speak to my own experiences, and obviously it's going to be subjective... It's what I've experienced. And, in my experience, the anti-social nature of people in LoTRO has been quite prevalent. Has everyone I've met been anti-social?  Nope. Has 100% of my experience been bad? Nope.. but the vast majority of it has been, enough so to push me away from the game after giving it a go several times.

Could be that I just had *that* bad of luck finding people. Could be that Firefoot, at least at that time, was a crappy server in that regard. Could be that Jupiter and Saturn were out of alignment... who knows why it was the way it was. I'm only reporting on what I  and friends of mine experienced in our times playing.

However, I do think there are good groups out there, somewhere. It'spartially why I had this statement in my initial post:
"If there's a Kin in that game whose members are welcoming and eager to involve new members in activities, for the long term - not just for the first week or so before the novelty wears off and people go back to their normal routines - I'd love to join it."
 

Seems to me like a bunch of whining from people who lack the motivation to organize their own social activities in a game, but rather want others to do it for them.  You want to socialize then get out there and put some effort into it, it's not the responsibility of other players to do it for you.

You want a Kinship that does activities with it's player, then YOU can help organize them instead of expecting them to do it for you.

I think one of the problems in modern games is that some older gamers used forced grouping as their primary source of social interaction and are either too lazy or too stupid to think outside of that box in today's solo friendly games.

Just like everything in life, what you get out of it is what you put into it.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

 

All in all, I will say the same again: my experiences are almost the opposite of yours, but that will not make me say that either me or you are right. What I'm rather saying is that it is definitely possible to socialize, and play with strangers in Lotro (in Snowbourn EU, at least), and with my experiences it is simply impossible to believe statements like "I had zero conversation in this game for a year", since that thing happened so easily and so naturally to myself, that the only 2 options I could imagine from someone stating this is either bullshitting, or (intentionally or not) trying to socialize in an uncommon way.

If you read carefully, there are tons of implications in my posts stating that all this is based on my experiences. Even in my post that you replied to, I have written: "noone in the nine hells will convince me, that someone stating the "zero" comment is not lying or doing something in a totally wrong way.

Sensing the subjectivity already?

DB

Well I figure it's not that way for everyone... I see people who talk about being in great Kinships who do a lot, etc (though I do also wonder if they're part of that "clique" who does everything together... cynical, I know).

I can only speak to my own experiences, and obviously it's going to be subjective... It's what I've experienced. And, in my experience, the anti-social nature of people in LoTRO has been quite prevalent. Has everyone I've met been anti-social?  Nope. Has 100% of my experience been bad? Nope.. but the vast majority of it has been, enough so to push me away from the game after giving it a go several times.

Could be that I just had *that* bad of luck finding people. Could be that Firefoot, at least at that time, was a crappy server in that regard. Could be that Jupiter and Saturn were out of alignment... who knows why it was the way it was. I'm only reporting on what I  and friends of mine experienced in our times playing.

However, I do think there are good groups out there, somewhere. It'spartially why I had this statement in my initial post:
"If there's a Kin in that game whose members are welcoming and eager to involve new members in activities, for the long term - not just for the first week or so before the novelty wears off and people go back to their normal routines - I'd love to join it."
 

Well, I'd gladly invite you to my kinship to prove that there really *are* good kinships (although it was waaay better a year ago I admit, still), there are only 2 small issues: it is in the EU :) and kinship is Hungarian-only.

That's not saying it does not accept any other foreign members, but since all activites and chat are in hungarian (a language that is probably the most difficult in the world, but definitely in the top 5 hardest to learn :), so it does not have too much of an incentive for non-natives to join :/

DB

Originally posted by WSIMike 

 

In short: "That wasn't my experience, so you're wrong". Is that the gist of what you're saying?

Not quite so cut-and-dry, I'm afraid.

I know what I experienced and I know the frustration we (a friend, his girlfriend and myself) experienced in trying to get Kin members involved with helping each other out, etc. It was an uphill fight the entire time. Everyone wanted to just do their own thing and only spoke up when they needed something.

PUGs weren't any better. I don't know what it's like now, it could have changed. But I know that when I was playing actively, as was my good friend, we *did* try... We used the in-game group functions, we actively sought out people to try and help out... and we'd help out others looking for people. It was the same thing every time. They'd join up only if they needed the same quest(s) we were on, and were gone as soon as they got what they needed; they stuck around only as long as there was something in it for them. There was barely any talking and hardly anyone ever remained in contact afterwards.

I come from FFXI, a game where communication and community are very important to get *a lot* done...  Aside from that, my friend, his girlfriend and I have all also played Lineage 2 for a few yearst, another game where helping other players out and not being "me me me" is quite important as well. So believe me, I know how to go about talking to people and searching for members for groups. None of us are anti-social or lazy about trying to get involved with the community in a given game. We tried to get involved, tried to build and participate in Kinships... We did everything we could, using every in-game function we could. Most people - in our experience - were too wrapped up in their own progress to be bothered.

I don't know what it's like now... maybe it's improved a lot. But at the time, the anti-social, self-centered and clique-ish behavior of many in that game is what drove all three of us away, time and again. It wasn't the game itself... we loved the game, and still do.

 

 

You will never find the kind of communication and closeness of a group oriented game like FF in a largely solo oriented game like LoTRo.  Fact is that virtually all games are going the solo route so the style of close communication and long lasting relationship developed from group oriented games will be a thing of the past.  I'd say that there are few people that even understand what you are talking about.  I've played pretty much all games, I didnt' play FF much.  But no game has the social environment that I was used to in eq.  That was similar I think to what you are talking about in FF.  You would get a group and stay together for 5-6 hours.  You would develop close friendships. 

I'm not sure about LoTRO because I'm new to it but the high lvl game might give you more of what you want.  In eq2 I get some group oriented play doing instances and raids.

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

 

All in all, I will say the same again: my experiences are almost the opposite of yours, but that will not make me say that either me or you are right. What I'm rather saying is that it is definitely possible to socialize, and play with strangers in Lotro (in Snowbourn EU, at least), and with my experiences it is simply impossible to believe statements like "I had zero conversation in this game for a year", since that thing happened so easily and so naturally to myself, that the only 2 options I could imagine from someone stating this is either bullshitting, or (intentionally or not) trying to socialize in an uncommon way.

If you read carefully, there are tons of implications in my posts stating that all this is based on my experiences. Even in my post that you replied to, I have written: "noone in the nine hells will convince me, that someone stating the "zero" comment is not lying or doing something in a totally wrong way.

Sensing the subjectivity already?

DB

Well I figure it's not that way for everyone... I see people who talk about being in great Kinships who do a lot, etc (though I do also wonder if they're part of that "clique" who does everything together... cynical, I know).

I can only speak to my own experiences, and obviously it's going to be subjective... It's what I've experienced. And, in my experience, the anti-social nature of people in LoTRO has been quite prevalent. Has everyone I've met been anti-social?  Nope. Has 100% of my experience been bad? Nope.. but the vast majority of it has been, enough so to push me away from the game after giving it a go several times.

Could be that I just had *that* bad of luck finding people. Could be that Firefoot, at least at that time, was a crappy server in that regard. Could be that Jupiter and Saturn were out of alignment... who knows why it was the way it was. I'm only reporting on what I  and friends of mine experienced in our times playing.

However, I do think there are good groups out there, somewhere. It'spartially why I had this statement in my initial post:
"If there's a Kin in that game whose members are welcoming and eager to involve new members in activities, for the long term - not just for the first week or so before the novelty wears off and people go back to their normal routines - I'd love to join it."
 

 

Well, I'd gladly invite you to my kinship to prove that there really *are* good kinships (although it was waaay better a year ago I admit, still), there are only 2 small issues: it is in the EU :) and kinship is Hungarian-only.

That's not saying it does not accept any other foreign members, but since all activites and chat are in hungarian (a language that is probably the most difficult in the world, but definitely in the top 5 hardest to learn :), so it does not have too much of an incentive for non-natives to join :/

DB

Might just take you up on that :)

Always good chatting with ya, DB.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Well I figure it's not that way for everyone... I see people who talk about being in great Kinships who do a lot, etc (though I do also wonder if they're part of that "clique" who does everything together... cynical, I know).

I can only speak to my own experiences, and obviously it's going to be subjective... It's what I've experienced. And, in my experience, the anti-social nature of people in LoTRO has been quite prevalent. Has everyone I've met been anti-social?  Nope. Has 100% of my experience been bad? Nope.. but the vast majority of it has been, enough so to push me away from the game after giving it a go several times.

Could be that I just had *that* bad of luck finding people. Could be that Firefoot, at least at that time, was a crappy server in that regard. Could be that Jupiter and Saturn were out of alignment... who knows why it was the way it was. I'm only reporting on what I  and friends of mine experienced in our times playing.

However, I do think there are good groups out there, somewhere. It'spartially why I had this statement in my initial post:
"If there's a Kin in that game whose members are welcoming and eager to involve new members in activities, for the long term - not just for the first week or so before the novelty wears off and people go back to their normal routines - I'd love to join it."
 

You have made several references to FFXI in your posts.  The fact of the matter is that LoTRO is much more solo oriented than FFXI.  Players group when they feel like it (rather than because they have to to get anything done), and PuGs usually form around a specific objective or set of objectives.  If you are looking for "group or die" style play, FFXI is pretty much the only MMO that offers it. 

It's not that that the players of LoTRO aren't social.  In my experience they are more social (and mature) than 90% of the MMOs I've tried.  That may reflect the fact that you are encouraged to find groups for the best quest rewards.  However, you are comparing the social dynamics of LoTRO to FFXI, pretty much the only mainstream forced grouping MMO left on the market.  It's not going to feel the same at all. 

I also find your use of over the top hyperboly ("never had a conversation?") a bit surprising, you are a usually a pretty straight shooter.  I suppose you may have found an abortion of a server (some of the European ones are rumored to be well and truly dead), but your experience is nowhere near mine in modern or olden LoTRO (last played a week ago).

As an aside:  if you still have WAR installed on your PC you might give it another shot.  Restart on one of the three crowded servers and you may find it to be more to your liking than it was at launch.  PvP is pretty much a group activity (unless you are suicidal), so you find a pretty dynamic and engaging (if occasionally somewhat WoWish in zone chat) social environment.   The PvE is still pretty much the worst among modern big budget MMOs in my experience (I wish I were using over the top hyperbole), but I've been having a lot of fun just leveling via scenarios and RvR lately.  Just be prepared to quit once you hit tier III, it starts to drag then imo.  But still, a solid month or two of fun.

Originally posted by Yeebo

Originally posted by WSIMike

Well I figure it's not that way for everyone... I see people who talk about being in great Kinships who do a lot, etc (though I do also wonder if they're part of that "clique" who does everything together... cynical, I know).

I can only speak to my own experiences, and obviously it's going to be subjective... It's what I've experienced. And, in my experience, the anti-social nature of people in LoTRO has been quite prevalent. Has everyone I've met been anti-social?  Nope. Has 100% of my experience been bad? Nope.. but the vast majority of it has been, enough so to push me away from the game after giving it a go several times.

Could be that I just had *that* bad of luck finding people. Could be that Firefoot, at least at that time, was a crappy server in that regard. Could be that Jupiter and Saturn were out of alignment... who knows why it was the way it was. I'm only reporting on what I  and friends of mine experienced in our times playing.

However, I do think there are good groups out there, somewhere. It'spartially why I had this statement in my initial post:
"If there's a Kin in that game whose members are welcoming and eager to involve new members in activities, for the long term - not just for the first week or so before the novelty wears off and people go back to their normal routines - I'd love to join it."
 

 

You have made several references to FFXI in your posts.  The fact of the matter is that LoTRO is much more solo oriented than FFXI.  Players group when they feel like it (rather than because they have to to get anything done), and PuGs usually form around a specific objective or set of objectives.  If you are looking for "group or die" style play, FFXI is pretty much the only MMO that offers it. 

It's not that that the players of LoTRO aren't social.  In my experience they are more social (and mature) than 90% of the MMOs I've tried.  That may reflect the fact that you are encouraged to find groups for the best quest rewards.  However, you are comparing the social dynamics of LoTRO to FFXI, pretty much the only mainstream forced grouping MMO left on the market.  It's not going to feel the same at all. 

I also find your use of over the top hyperboly ("never had a conversation?") a bit surprising, you are a usually a pretty straight shooter.  I suppose you may have found an abortion of a server (some of the European ones are rumored to be well and truly dead), but your experience is nowhere near mine in modern or olden LoTRO (last played a week ago).

As an aside:  if you still have WAR installed on your PC you might give it another shot.  Restart on one of the three crowded servers and you may find it to be more to your liking than it was at launch.  PvP is pretty much a group activity (unless you are suicidal), so you find a pretty dynamic and engaging (if occasionally somewhat WoWish in zone chat) social environment.   The PvE is still pretty much the worst among modern big budget MMOs in my experience (I wish I were using over the top hyperbole), but I've been having a lot of fun just leveling via scenarios and RvR lately.  Just be prepared to quit once you hit tier III, it starts to drag then imo.  But still, a solid month or two of fun.

Hey, in Mike's defense, he actually never had a statement like "I had zero conversation". This was said by someone else, who does absolutely nothing else but complain about LOTRO in each and every single one of his comments, so we know how to take his opinion (not a pinch, but rather with a wagonload of salt) :D

DB

Originally posted by Yeebo

Originally posted by WSIMike

Well I figure it's not that way for everyone... I see people who talk about being in great Kinships who do a lot, etc (though I do also wonder if they're part of that "clique" who does everything together... cynical, I know).

I can only speak to my own experiences, and obviously it's going to be subjective... It's what I've experienced. And, in my experience, the anti-social nature of people in LoTRO has been quite prevalent. Has everyone I've met been anti-social?  Nope. Has 100% of my experience been bad? Nope.. but the vast majority of it has been, enough so to push me away from the game after giving it a go several times.

Could be that I just had *that* bad of luck finding people. Could be that Firefoot, at least at that time, was a crappy server in that regard. Could be that Jupiter and Saturn were out of alignment... who knows why it was the way it was. I'm only reporting on what I  and friends of mine experienced in our times playing.

However, I do think there are good groups out there, somewhere. It'spartially why I had this statement in my initial post:
"If there's a Kin in that game whose members are welcoming and eager to involve new members in activities, for the long term - not just for the first week or so before the novelty wears off and people go back to their normal routines - I'd love to join it."
 

 

You have made several references to FFXI in your posts.  The fact of the matter is that LoTRO is much more solo oriented than FFXI.  Players group when they feel like it (rather than because they have to to get anything done), and PuGs usually form around a specific objective or set of objectives.  If you are looking for "group or die" style play, FFXI is pretty much the only MMO that offers it. 

It's not that that the players of LoTRO aren't social.  In my experience they are more social (and mature) than 90% of the MMOs I've tried.  That may reflect the fact that you are encouraged to find groups for the best quest rewards.  However, you are comparing the social dynamics of LoTRO to FFXI, pretty much the only mainstream forced grouping MMO left on the market.  It's not going to feel the same at all. 

I also find your use of over the top hyperboly ("never had a conversation?") a bit surprising, you are a usually a pretty straight shooter.  I suppose you may have found an abortion of a server (some of the European ones are rumored to be well and truly dead), but your experience is nowhere near mine in modern or olden LoTRO (last played a week ago).

As an aside:  if you still have WAR installed on your PC you might give it another shot.  Restart on one of the three crowded servers and you may find it to be more to your liking than it was at launch.  PvP is pretty much a group activity (unless you are suicidal), so you find a pretty dynamic and engaging (if occasionally somewhat WoWish in zone chat) social environment.   The PvE is still pretty much the worst among modern big budget MMOs in my experience (I wish I were using over the top hyperbole), but I've been having a lot of fun just leveling via scenarios and RvR lately.  Just be prepared to quit once you hit tier III, it starts to drag then imo.  But still, a solid month or two of fun.

As DB stated.. I never said I never had a conversation. I said people seldom talked to people outside their cliques, or seldom spoke at all, unless they needed something. I also stated that people in a new kin would be great to you when you were still new, but once the novelty wore off, they sorta forgot you existed and went back to their routines.

That said, I just want to clarify something...

Please read this following bit again, it's the bit in my first post in this thread where I reference FFXI. Note the *context* I'm using FFXI and Lineage 2 in:

"I come from FFXI, a game where communication and community are very important to get *a lot* done... Aside from that, my friend, his girlfriend and I have all also played Lineage 2 for a few yearst, another game where helping other players out and not being "me me me" is quite important as well. So believe me, I know how to go about talking to people and searching for members for groups. None of us are anti-social or lazy about trying to get involved with the community in a given game."

I'm using FFXI and L2 merely as a way to illustrate that I'm not anti-social and that I do seek out others to communicate and cooperate and do stuff with; that I am not the anti-social type who seeks out the darkest corner to linger in (figuratively speaking), nor the type that sits around and waits for people to come to me, complaining when they don't. I *do* seek out community and use whatever tools I can in-game to try and get involved and be pro-active.

I said this because one or two suggestions were made that I didn't do enough in LoTRO to find the community I was looking for - and that simply isn't true.

I never said I wanted LoTRO to be more like FFXI... That some seem to take that away from it isn't my problem.

Originally posted by WSIMike

As DB stated.. I never said I never had a conversation. I said people seldom talked to people outside their cliques, or seldom spoke at all, unless they needed something. I also stated that people in a new kin would be great to you when you were still new, but once the novelty wore off, they sorta forgot you existed and went back to their routines.

That said, I just want to clarify something...

Please read this following bit again, it's the bit in my first post in this thread where I reference FFXI. Note the *context* I'm using FFXI and Lineage 2 in:

"I come from FFXI, a game where communication and community are very important to get *a lot* done... Aside from that, my friend, his girlfriend and I have all also played Lineage 2 for a few yearst, another game where helping other players out and not being "me me me" is quite important as well. So believe me, I know how to go about talking to people and searching for members for groups. None of us are anti-social or lazy about trying to get involved with the community in a given game."

I'm using FFXI and L2 merely as a way to illustrate that I'm not anti-social and that I do seek out others to communicate and cooperate and do stuff with; that I am not the anti-social type who seeks out the darkest corner to linger in (figuratively speaking), nor the type that sits around and waits for people to come to me, complaining when they don't. I *do* seek out community and use whatever tools I can in-game to try and get involved and be pro-active.

I said this because one or two suggestions were made that I didn't do enough in LoTRO to find the community I was looking for - and that simply isn't true.

I never said I wanted LoTRO to be more like FFXI... That some seem to take that away from it isn't my problem.

Ahh, that's a bit more clear.  I'll admit I didn't read through the entire thread, so i did take your reference to FFXI out of context..

My personal experience was that there was a large element of luck involved in finding a good KS.  I went through three before I found one that was active and supported my play style.  Even in that one I eventually ended up leaving because I thought one of the officers treated a friend of mine poorly (he got dumped from the parallel creep KS without explanation...a few weeks later it turned out to be an honest mistake, but we were both gone by then) .  We both moved to a smaller KS that had been trying to recruit us (met some of the officers in a random PuG that went really well).  There are only about ten active players, but we all know each other and have the same goals in game.  I'd say from launch to my current KS was at least six months. Been in it ever since.  

Not sure if you will find my experience encouraging or discouraging :-)

Edit: also, apologies for putting words into your mouth.  I never meant to imply that you want LoTRO to be a Tolkien themed FFXI, I didn't take that away from any of your comments. 

My initial response may have been a bit poorly worded.  My main point was due to the structure of the game LoTRO simply isn't going to have the same kind of social cohesion that FFXI has.  I personally don't like being forced to group, but at the same time I can see that most modern MMOs just don't have the close knit social dynamics of launch EQ or modern FFXI (that was the point I was trying to make...not that forced grouping is "te suxxors" or something like that).  Like anything, having a lot of solo content in your game is a trade-off. 

You can also encourage social cohesion by focusing your endgame on RvR or guild warfare.  Even in WAR, despite the fact that the community isn't generally as mature as in LoTRO (I see a lot of WoW style BS in open chat channels), I do see stronger overall social cohesion due to the "us versus them" mentality the game encourages.  In /regional you see a lot more "Order storming keep X, reinforcements needed!" and less "Where do I find farmer Bob's cow?" 

Originally posted by Yeebo

 

Edit: also, apologies for putting words into your mouth.  I never meant to imply that you want LoTRO to be a Tolkien themed FFXI, I didn't take that away from any of your comments. 

My initial response may have been a bit poorly worded.  My main point was due to the structure of the game LoTRO simply isn't going to have the same kind of social cohesion that FFXI has.  I personally don't like being forced to group, but at the same time I can see that most modern MMOs just don't have the close knit social dynamics of launch EQ or modern FFXI (that was the point I was trying to make...not that forced grouping is "te suxxors" or something like that).  Like anything, having a lot of solo content in your game is a trade-off. 

You can also encourage social cohesion by focusing your endgame on RvR or guild warfare.  Even in WAR, despite the fact that the community isn't generally as mature as in LoTRO (I see a lot of WoW style BS in open chat channels), I do see stronger overall social cohesion due to the "us versus them" mentality the game encourages.  In /regional you see a lot more "Order storming keep X, reinforcements needed!" and less "Where do I find farmer Bob's cow?" 

 

Heheh, it's fine.. No apologies necessary. I know from experience that you and DonnieBrasco are two of the more level-headed people around here, so it's cool. We all make mistakes.

Like I said, my reference of those other games was more to establish myself as someone who enjoys the social element of MMOs, talking with others, grouping up, etc.

You know it's funny... I've had my LoTRO and WAR boxes sitting on my desk here, staring at me... because I was trying to figure out which one I wanted to give another try.

WAR intrigues me because I haven't played it much and so a lot of it would still be new to me. I love being brand-new in a new game, not knowing where anything is, etc. I also rather like the art style of the game. The downside to it is that my first experiences with it were underwhelming... I didn't feel like I was part of a world at all in that game; everything seems laid out specifically as playfields in a game. I never felt an urge to explore and what exploring I did yielded very few "rewards" (discovering a new spot, etc) for it. Also, people racing up through the lower tiers so fast that I was forever finding PQ spots empty, etc. World chat was quiet - I think due to the way it was set up at first, but I think they've improved it since then.

LoTRO is a strong consideration because I love the environments (I think it has the best environment design of any MMO I've played; and I've always been a fan of Turbine's dungeon design - the ones I went through in DDO are amazing). Also, unlike WAR, LoTRO feels like a world... I can't tell you how many times I've looked off into the distance, saw some interesting looking structure, thought "hmm.. wonder what's over there?" and wandered off.. to find myself "lost" (as lost as you can be with a map handy) in some remote area.

In all, exploration in LoTRO is forever rewarding... whether it's some amazing vista from a high cliff-top, some interesting ruins, some obscure detail lifted from the pages of the LoTR books, some location I never knew existed, etc... "losing your feet" (as Bilbo would put it) is almost always worthwhile. The downside, as I've explained, is that the community in my times playing it has been less than inspiring... I think if I could find myself in a "perfect" (read: ideal) Kinship, that LoTRO could be a runner-up for my "main MMO" (at least 'til FFXIV comes out :-p).

So.. as we speak.. I'm patching LoTRO heheh.

Now my decision is a toss-up between picking up where I left off with my existing character... or start off brand-new on a different server, perhaps one of the servers that are considered the more active/friendly. We shall see.
 

I think you should start off fresh, with a new class maybe? It looks like a nice idea, since as we heard, the starting regions have been revamped, or at least the quests/mobs have. This makes even myself to feel like starting my 7th toon :)) Heck, i do enjoy the first levels of MMO's the most, usually.... where development is quick, inventories are easy to manage, goals are few and straight-forward.... no factions/crafting guilds etc etc :)) and the thrill of "I can become anything, like... famous and all" :DDD

DB

Lotro is a PVE game. If you want realm vs realm, you should have bought a different game.

Stop trying to make every game exactly the same as every other game. 

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by DonnieBrasco

 

All in all, I will say the same again: my experiences are almost the opposite of yours, but that will not make me say that either me or you are right. What I'm rather saying is that it is definitely possible to socialize, and play with strangers in Lotro (in Snowbourn EU, at least), and with my experiences it is simply impossible to believe statements like "I had zero conversation in this game for a year", since that thing happened so easily and so naturally to myself, that the only 2 options I could imagine from someone stating this is either bullshitting, or (intentionally or not) trying to socialize in an uncommon way.

If you read carefully, there are tons of implications in my posts stating that all this is based on my experiences. Even in my post that you replied to, I have written: "noone in the nine hells will convince me, that someone stating the "zero" comment is not lying or doing something in a totally wrong way.

Sensing the subjectivity already?

DB

Well I figure it's not that way for everyone... I see people who talk about being in great Kinships who do a lot, etc (though I do also wonder if they're part of that "clique" who does everything together... cynical, I know).
 

Nailed it on the head I'm afraid.  Most people in any game who claim there's no social problems are usually part of this group in the guild and they just don't see the problem the other members have.  (not in all guilds of course)

The watch the fringe members turn over on a regular basis and always assume its the other peoples fault, because they certainly don't have any issues.

In fact,when I've raised the issue in some guilds the leaders have sometimes gone so far as to suggest I need to form my own "group" to hang with as they enjoy playing with each other and can't really accomodate others.  This has often been followed with a suggestion that if I don't like it perhaps I should leave.  (An offer that I always accept when made.)

But I'll agree, for a modern MMO, LotRO is probably the best for social interaction, but only because the player base goes out of their way to force it to work.

Almost no modern MMO is designed to encourage (OK, almost force) cooperative group play like early DAOC or FFXI did.   Yes, you can group in all games, but in most their is little incentive to do so.

This game used to have a top notch community. From closed beta until about a year ago it was amazing,  but that's not the case anymore. The community is very cliquish, paranoid, overly rude, snobbish, "holier than thou" ... I think you get the point :P.