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After the unexpected debate on rap ethics and culture war that took place in my "Rapper MMO Idea" thread and my failure to redirect it I'll take my thoughts here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Tartleton There's already one in the works apparently but my guess is it will fail to capture any sum of players and misfocus on instanced battle heavy linerar RVR PVP to the same extent that Mythic's Warhammer was. What I want to see is a one server monster with a good 300,00 people on it. I think 300,000 would be a reasonable for a launch of a major studio, if it begins to skyrocket (which we all doubt anymore) more servers could be added. So 300k people divided into I would say six playable races (factions)means about 50k people per faction (factions would be united as either Order or Disorder, but would be seperate for much of the game into battlefronts meaning a good ten thousand people from each faction would be online at once not to mention NPC armies controlled by AI. However unlike WAR it wouldn't be linear battlefronts but instead actual conflict over hundreds of square miles of actual game world with really really big instances taking place (battles within the main war). Several Hive Cities which are each a cubic mile of towering skyscrapers and wreckage filled with mutants, heretics, and even worse, survivors... Six Playable Factions: 4 Classes per faction (three paths per class): Instances of enormous size like an orbital attack with hundreds of defenders and attackers among thousands of NPCs tearing each other apart over objectives that play out differently each time being a cross between Raids and battle grounds. On one hand you're fighting other players head to head, but you're also PVEing your way through hordes of Computer Generated enemies bosses ranging from space marines which may take a dozen men to take down and demon princes that may take dozens of marines or hundreds of PCs to take down. Not to mention destroying landers and tanks etc. Even if it lacked proper RPG elements and became more of a giant FPS game it would probably be very fun. I mean a large online FPS is really lacking. I want something that brings FPS and MMO and PVE and PVP together into one big slam dunk of a game. As long as the starting product is entertaining enough then the less critical components like an economy and crafting and such can be slipped in. But what it needs at the start is a huge world to fight over endlessly, fun interfaces, a good grouping system and communication system characters that improve over time with new armor and weapons and such. It'd be like a good version of Xbox live. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by glord
1. Factions siding. The Imperium would never ally with even the Eldar filth. Save this for Space Marines and Imperial Guard ONLY. Even than, they should still be able to fight each other as the storyline progresses and Strict disciplined biologically engineered fanatics and their Imperial Guard allies start to go their own path and decide to fight each other. 2. Small guardsmen squads fighting Space Marines. Stupid, and almost impossible. Make space marine squads small and Imperial Guardsman squads large. Just like the tabletop game.
3. I'd like to see some ability to customize our legion. I, for example want to be able to get my Pestilent Raiders Chaos Marine tabletop army in the game. Are they an official chapter? No. They are my homebrew chapter, but give room for customization. I refuse to play a standard Chaos Marine chapter. AT LEAST let me choose my own Chaos God. No Tzeentch crap. Nurgle all the way!
Two good ideas, I'm not a fan of squads, but I think multiple "Pets" would do some good for many envisioned classes. A class of Comissars with multiple conscript pets would be awesome. I think Marines should be a Hero Class. Now I don't want to see a blatant rip off of wow. There would instead be a hero class for each faction. It would allow for game balanced with fluff. I'd hate to see Marines start off equal to a guardsman. A guardsman eventually compete with a marine, but not for a while progression wise. (Power weapons, Plasma Guns and Carapace Armor go a long way to evening the gap) Guard get Marines, Tau get Battlesuits, Eldar get Aspects, Chaos get Marines, Inquisition get... Inquisitors, Orks get Nobs etc. At higher levels these Hero Classes can get even greater in power. Marines become veterans (Hello Terminator Armor?); Tau get Crisis Suits with bells and whistles; Aspects become Exarchs; Chaos are Chosen; Inquisitors become Lords; and Nobs become Bosses. All of which will turn low levels into all so much pulp. You'd have to have a really robust design system, so you could custom design your guys face, build, whatever, and on top of that weapons and armor would be in stages of equal ability for a given number of levels so your marine at level 60 will be able to get his Astarte Plate of every mark and mix and match it, color it, damage it asthetically, put trophies and seals on it, and change things as you go (for in game money of course.) Thus your in game guild "The Ultramarines" can be just that and have a stiff rivalry with the "Space Wolves" but you can be non affiliate and dress as either of them or any other marine you can imagine. Chaos can be half armor, half naked, mutated, degraded, fanged, clawed, and babble insanely. Battle suits can get different components for asthetic value, Inquisitors can get crazy looking armor, Aspects can have a bone singer turn them into living sculptures... Nobs can weld metal armor to their body cover, themselves in refuse and litter, and paint themselves vibrantly.
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heartless
 Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/05/04
Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan |
7/23/09 10:53:29 PM#2
One thing I want out of a W40K MMO is FPS combat. It's W40K for crying out loud. But no, the W40K MMO that's being developed now is going to have regular MMO type combat. I can just see it now: >Your chainsword auto attack has hit the tyranid warrior for 1344 points of damage. Disgusting, if you ask me.
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Quite disgusting. The age of dice generated combat is coming to a close methinks. It's not engaging enough. Its fun, but its irratating at the same time. FPS would allow (with a huge amount of difficulty) a low level guardsman with a laspistol to kill a Space Marine Veteran with all the bells and whistles due to good fieldcraft and accuracy. The Marine would normally be able to run up and gang stomp the trooper, but not always. Inhuman strength, speed, and stamina, advanced composite armors, high explosive large bore armor piercing smgs, force field generators, energy sheathed crusher fists, etc: Make killing others easy and getting killed hard, but it isn't impossible. FPS is competive for a reason, a thing MMOs are not. They're just as competitive but the question of "why" comes to mind. When you're shooting clowns you should feel excited, but when its click the icon, caste the spell, crit, they're dead, its just not immersive.) Technically I'd like to see a third person shooter (GoW style) as when you're a humanoid battletank or a half naked chain bound psychic slave super customized to be your and your avatar alone it would be a shame to only ever see your arms... |
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7/24/09 12:09:42 AM#4
~24 classes with three playstyles each wouldn't do 40k justice. It's part of why each of WAR's classes feel shallow in terms of gameplay - they simply had too many classes, so they didn't have time to make each one fun and polished. Also it's about giving players customization options. If a game has 30 interesting playstyles, do you want a game with 30 individual classes which have zero customization options, or do you want a game with 10 classes which each have 3 significantly different playstyle options? The second option means that if you start getting bored on your main character you can switch him/her to a different playstyle to try something new. FFXI goes to the extreme by letting any character have access to any of the 20 playstyles the game has. So all characters are basically the same "class" which can spec into any of 20 talent trees ("jobs")...provided you level those jobs on your character. (*note I haven't actually played FFXI, so please correct me if this is inaccurate.) |
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7/24/09 12:19:53 AM#5
A WW2OL based system could work...better yet, i'd imagine the game would end up being similar to WW2OL or planetside. I dunno just a thought. |
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7/24/09 12:24:47 AM#6
If the WH40k has classes, levels, and "kill 10 tyranids" quests, it's going to be an utter piece of shit. Also, players should not be able to play as marines. I will ragequit if I see a marine named "XxDeathSniperxX" going "lolnub lets pwnzor them lolololol!"
And I'm going to go on a murdering spree.
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heartless
Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/05/04
Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan |
7/24/09 12:39:22 AM#7
Originally posted by Zyke
I'm all for experimentation but don't think that it would be possible to make a successful W40K without space marines. Ask anyone about the first thing that comes to their mind when they think of W40K and 99% of people will say space marines.
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7/24/09 2:01:45 AM#8
LMAO all we know is THQ is making a 40k mmo and you call it fail? Wow thats funny. I want to see a free for all. Let certian campaigns allow allies otherwise its every army for themslves. I don't want to see 4 classes per race. Anyone look at a 40k army and its background? Everyone starts off as grunts. You don't join a SM chapter as a chaplin. No you work towards it. In fact their shouldn't be that many chaplins to begin with. This is perfect for a sandbox(or it might just end up as a aion like system) work on what you want as you work your way up. Let the guilds be the Sm chapters or Tau septs. This would be friggin epic. After player got to a certian point in their progression they could have the opition of say making their own chapter. They would become chapter and get the bonuses granted by it. They could set up their chapter and recruit those that would be chaplins or librarians or terimantors. IMO this system is win. Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time. If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD |
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7/24/09 2:36:46 AM#9
On Immersion The reason is that we view real life in first person. So when a game mimicks that point of view, it's more natural to us than some artificial camera angle. Most gamers also lump in a game world's believability in with immersion, and that's important too. The ways that the world animates and how well it mimicks reality is important. Even in fantasy games, mimicking reality is important (it's how disbelief is suspended!) Not that believability is always a dev's primary concern. For example, when I fly a WOW mount and change direction to move the other way it's not like the dragon animates in a realistic manner like a bird would if it decided to turn around. It's not even possible for a bird to move in one direction and instantly move at full speed in the opposite direction. So that's just an example of gameplay trumping believability. On Auto-Attack But I will admit that auto-attack damage has its casual appeal, and can even be an active decision. In many MMORPGs casters can't cast spells while auto-attacking (with wands) and this makes wanding more of an active decision. On Dice Rolls/Randomization This noise adds a couple potential benefits: Example: If the enemy has 100hp and I always do 35dmg per attack, it always takes exactly 3 hits to kill him. If I upgrade my gear and deal 45dmg per attack, it's still taking me 3 hits to kill him. But in a randomized game where I start out dealing 30-40dmg per attack, the number of hits it takes varies (30% of the time it will take 4 hits; 70% it'll take 3 hits.) In this situation even +1 to my damage changes the potential outcomes of combat (31-41dmg gives me an 80% chance of killing in 3 hits.) 2. It means every fight doesn't play out exactly the same. If your standard ability rotation is 1-2-3 and ability #4 usually isn't very good, but each of your abilities has a 15% chance of causing ability #4 to be super awesome then that's going to prevent you from always repetitively pressing 1-2-3. Sometimes 1-2-4-3, sometimes 1-4-2-3, and when you're lucky 1-4-2-4-3-4. The point being that every fight isn't the same -- ideally in a way you can react to (because critical hits may cause enemies to die faster, but you're still be pressing 1-2-3.) Nothing makes a game more repetitive than killing mobs the exact same way each fight. |
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7/24/09 5:11:21 AM#10
I want it to be immersive, grand, with lots of freedom in playstyle. Serious pvp and consequences, but not ganking ffa everywhere. You must be able to seriously impact the gameworld, and create allegiances across the stars. There must be the abilty to build strongholds, switch from chaos to good and vice versa. Skillbased. And a minimum of four different factions (two faction games are inherently broken). Also there should be space travel. Definitely have to have FPS elements, but shouldn't be 100% twitch..
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Unfortunately, fat chance we will see all this ... I fear a themepark mmo with hollow gameplay as always...
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7/24/09 5:43:22 AM#11
Originally posted by heartless I totally agree, although, there can still be a diceroll mechanic in the backgournd, for example your lasgun does more damage depending on your rifles skill. I also want to see the large array of vehicles and expecially the larger Tyranids in action. Lore-wise, the 40K IP is so well established that it shouldn't be a problem to establish an intuitive and immersive roleplaying environment. |
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heartless
Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/05/04
Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan |
7/24/09 11:06:22 AM#12
Originally posted by Hrothmund I totally agree, although, there can still be a diceroll mechanic in the backgournd, for example your lasgun does more damage depending on your rifles skill. I also want to see the large array of vehicles and expecially the larger Tyranids in action. Lore-wise, the 40K IP is so well established that it shouldn't be a problem to establish an intuitive and immersive roleplaying environment. I don't doubt the lore and the options as far as classes and skills. W40K has one of the most in-depth systems out there. I wouldn't mind a dice roll mechanic running in the background. It definitely would work nicely since it's an RPG. Unfortunately, THQ doesn't share my views.
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I don't think THQ will screw it up, I just don't know if they will go in the right direction. Dawn of War #1 was great, I haven't played #2, but I know its heading in the direction of an MMO by the fact they've reduced it from real battle to a more rogue trader scaled kill team of highly customizable mini heros. That's clearly a step towards a phase three "Dawn of War Online" type game where you play as an individual, not to mention of course, the game Space Marine where they're probably going to work out the single player FPS experience before adapting it to a fully online world. I'm pretty sure its going to be at least as story driven as most MMOs, because Dawn of War has always been story driven, and Space Marine is designed to give the "illusion" of being in a much bigger game then you are.
But I don't want it to desolve into a grind for better gear and levels. Levels are just a way to denote experience. Gear is half asthetic half beneficial. Skills only play so much benefit. There needs to be that "twitch" factor. I don't want the really good people to be the ones who play the most, I want room for talent as a gamer in some classes being really vital (such as a storm trooper since they're light on armor but heavy on firepower and that's a very Counter Strike type of thing. Marine players on the other hand represent a more traditional might make right high level type of player who benefits from great skill but is able to be a bit sloppier and still get results. Regardless, the only way to balance marines outside of a Hero Class is to play as scouts from say 0-40 and then at 40-60 you get power armor, 60-80 you get artificer or terminator etc. However I want there to be drawbacks to new options. The heaviest armor in the game makes you nigh unkillable, but it also makes you slower, heavier, and clumsier. A crisis suit would bring dakka on the bounce, but it wouldn't be as useful as stealth armor. Get a team together and man a Leman Russ, you'll own things at a distance with heavy weapons and armor, but watch out for deepstriking aspect warriors with fusion blasters. There's a counter to everything, be it numbers, suprise, skill, or speed. I mean a devilfish will fly circles around chimeras, but a chimera will have the guns to shoot it down, falcons would fly circles around chimeras and devilfish but lack the heavy weapons of either. Like on paper: Marine being a hero class will literally rape anything shy of a hero class or a high "level" non hero class, but a level one can pick up that long las sitting near that window in the bombed out house take aim and put a shot right through his eye. That's balanced by the fact if he misses that shot the marine will activate his jump pack and throw himself through the building, his bolters akimbo ablaze and spatter the grunt all over the walls and floor. But the point is, from level one if you're competant you can get right in the action. |
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7/24/09 11:28:59 AM#14
Originally posted by heartless I don't doubt the lore and the options as far as classes and skills. W40K has one of the most in-depth systems out there. I wouldn't mind a dice roll mechanic running in the background. It definitely would work nicely since it's an RPG. Unfortunately, THQ doesn't share my views.
Well, all we can do is hope for the best. I just don't want my favorite scifi IP to be translated into a stinker of a MMO |
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7/24/09 11:43:00 AM#15
"Hero". The problem with many mmo games is that everyone is a hero. You dont feel like you mean something, your just a regular "hero". I wish 40k would be about the frontline soldiers, that rarely receive any gratitude for their work, and when they do it does feel and look like something awesome just happened. I hope it it doesnt turn out that every player is almost the god emperor. I wish the game will not be where you do heroic deeds every 30min, like the rest of the server, instead you are a simple foot soldier, who fights in thse massive battles - it should be massive battles, not those 1vs1 or group vs1 pve. PvP should be considered important as well - it should be fun to fight for your faction (hope there are at least 6 main ones). While not full loot and no harsh penalties, pvp should be encouraged by teritorial gain, when you and your faction receive bonuses (from stat increase, to enabling using some rare skills, crafting rare items, perhaps summoning a demon or smth in those lines). To make it feel more massive, it should not be limited to a single planet, but rather a whole cluster of planets, that may be conquered. There are so many things I would love to see in mmos, sadly it will take some years for devs to realize that they should move on from current type of mmos. |
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I'd prefer a full planet of varying terrain with one airless moon one breathable moon and several faction alligned fleets coming and going causing mayhem. I think that with the scale of 40k space battles it should be like seasonal PVP conflict zones. Ships are really big explorable environments (REALLY BIG) and when they fight they're the largest points of conflict imaginable. Group sized boarding teams as parts of hundred man raid groups to take out individual ship parts that can be defended by NPCs and enemy faction players and even if destroyed can be rebuilt by the other team making it a fun ongoing campaign where you have to destroy say four or five critical areas (engines, armories, hangers, command decks, etc.) in order to destroy the ship. There should be a fully active eldar webway which can be fought in and used for high speed transport, orbital bombardments that will level fortresses the size of small regions and allow for ground and air based invasions. Everything is chaos, everything is brutal constant war. |
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7/24/09 12:10:17 PM#17
I apology for the cohesion of this post, but these are just my random thoughts about the topic: I would only like to see humans as a playable race. Similar to Dark Heresy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000_Roleplay If there has to be other playbale races, they could be Tau, Eldar/Dark Eldar. The main difference to Dark Heresy would be that you do not have to start as a part of the Inquisition, but that might be an option later on in the game. And as a human you would be able to choose to be either on the side of the Emperor or Chaos. I would also like to see encounters with the powerful Xenos species related to the end-game. Like some very high-end dungeon, for example a space hulk near the Emperor's Eye partly engulfed in the Warp. You would come across lesser Xenos more often earlier in the game. Different missions and storylines would include different races, like Orcs, Tau, Tyranids etc. and the element of despair should really be there as humans struggle to keep them at the bay. Those who choose Chaos path would be working against the Emperor. Hero careers could include things like becoming an Inquisitor or Astartes/Chaos Marine, but I really would like to see humble beginnings for characters. I really liked the idea of birth place as a starting place for a character - like Void Born etc. That give traits to your characters. Early careers could be tied to your starting place and could include things like Imperial Guard who could be fighting a war at some forgotten front, Tech-Priest could start at Adeptus Mechanicus etc. And after progressing through the tutoria, you would be teleported to a planet that is under attack from one of the other races. Or if you choose Chaos, you would find yourself in a planet slowly temped and transformed by Chaos. And you would have to work against forces of the Emperor. The story would there continue in conjunction with other careers. The gameplay could be similar to Mass Effect. Plus ground vehicles would have a major role in PvP. The overall feeling of the game should be more Ian Watson and less Dan Abnett.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in." |
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7/24/09 12:22:48 PM#18
I read the original post and I find myself agreeing with all of it. There is one catch however that I feel needs to be mentioned. Project size and being realistic about it. Launching a "true" Warhammer 40,000 game might very well entail having Space Marine, Eldar, Ork, and say, Tau races being available for player character use... as a "bare bones" minimum. Imperial Guard are far and away "less heroic" a faction than those other choices, especially Marines, so they could be regulated as NPC planet filler. Chaos, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Rogue Trader licensed from Hive World cartels could all be enemy NPC sources. Again, to keep everything at a minimum for launch.
What would be needed at that point for this "just the basics" approach? Three home planets, a Craftworld, and a HELL of a lot of coding. A LOT of coding. And that would mean a LOT more money investment than any previous "single world" MMORPG that we've seen before, Star Wars Galaxies excluded (but that monster cost buckets of money too).
If the funding wasn't available for such a huge financial risk at the start, I'd be more than happy to play a Hive World Gang based setting like Necromunda that is developed extensively for launch, and let the Devs continue work after reaping the initial sales profit to develop and introduce the remaining content such as Marines, Eldar, Orks, etc. Human gangers could work up the ranks and become Space Marines, or Rogue Trader elites or Imperial Agents as a middle - end game position, or they could re roll the new Race characters and begin as guardians, ork grunts, tau infantry, etc. And spend an appropriate amount of time "leveling up" comparable to what the human ganger players went through to learn the game, and then hit the advanced class choices later.
I'm obviously just speculating. Maybe we'll luck out and THQ will have both the exorbant amount of money AND the plan to "think" big with this right away.
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7/24/09 1:48:02 PM#19
Warhammer 40k has to be a fps it wouln't be warhammer 40k with a mmorpg. For a fps you dont need so many classes and races. World Could just start out with marines, chaos marines, orks, imperial. make the rest npc races till you get it right as i would rather have 4 polished factions than 24 crappy factions that are close to images of them selves. No levels only rank's and it goes down based on how you play that dosen't mean you can't progess if you suck as fps you would eventally progress towards veteran status just not maby a captain. Everyone starts out imperial army and threw battle the option to join a marine chapter not a long wait. Balance wise i would like to see a marine be tuffer than a imperial but give a imperial army 2 npc bots with him. mass units and what not. if you do anything other than that it wouldnt be in the spirt of the series and there would be no point in even having imperial army. But a group of say 6 marines altho tuffer would be fighting 15 or more imperials. lag's a problem but its the only way to keep too the series and have balance, 1 imperial should not beat a chaos marine its just wrong but 3 thats not so bad. As warhammer shows it is not immersive, 1 planet will not due. Instances are not immerseive AOC is not fun, you have to connect the planets make travel seem real not instant teleport or it will fail with no immerson. The Universe needs to be made up of many many planets. Larger worlds for war, and home bases of Marine factions. You can't start out a ultra marine and a space wolf out on the same world. It wouldnt work with just one world, And by seperating the faction starting location it promotes Faction pride. Smaller worlds for skirmishes and less massive battles smaller groups could find even battles here. Things to do. Mission's on the battle field, destroy gun emplacements, attack units defend locations. Protect planets from npc invasions. smaller missions for worlds not on front lines normal destroy this pack of alien whatever lore it up from 40k. Be able to push a faction back to there home and destroy it, leave them out and vagrant for a week then have the faction set up a new home in another part of the galaxy give them a npc boost if there too outnumbered to do it let them set back and and then tone down the boost but never to the point that its unwinnable or other faction wont try to resist it less conflict=bad. Class balance wise. Marines need factions imperial army needs factions inside it with little rpg element that make them diffrent, accuracy health speed tactics weapons, thats how you get diversity other than cosmetic. Ultra marines, Space Wolves, imperial fists, Blood angels, Dark Angels, White Scars, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard all need there own faction and worlds to control worlds historical to them will be harder to take. As rank incresses your ability to create a guild or own chapter wouldn't be a easy task. Don't know how to faction the imperial army, doing it by world would seperate them to much.
progress in rank lets you do better missions command more marines npc's. failing takes you down a rank. make some, i don't know challengeing missions!!!!? You know quests that arn't ment to be done by everyone. Im tired of people going "have you done that quest yet?" i want it to be a ever thing. Orks similar fashion. could add, another faction later when the base is bigger.
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7/24/09 1:52:15 PM#20
Originally posted by Tamcia
I agree. Lets not have everyone reach for the hero status. Give us something to strive for instead of simply choking us with instant gratification gifts. The Marines have to fight for centuries to even become Initiates, so lets not cheapen that effort required. |
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