In his most recent post, MMORPG.com spotlighted blogger Inktomi writes about "the high cost of PvP," meaning that he takes a look at the benefits of engaging in PvP when there's something valuable on the line.

Ultima Online, Darkfall, EVE Online and the upcoming pvp-base MMO: Mortal Online that is about to enter closed beta testing. What do these games have in common? They all have severe penalties for PvP losses. Free for all looting is slowly creeping back into the MMO scene that had been phased out in recent years, it was the main attraction for Darkfall Online. World of Warcraft pvp penalties were a joke and so is Warhammer’s, but the rewards were very high which made pvp attractive. When I played FFXI PvP is almost non-existent and most other games had either sanctioned pvp or open pk with no real downside.

I like the risk you take when you venture where you’re not supposed to be and there is a possibility of being wtfpwned by the opposing faction. It adds excitement and a sense of accomplishment to the game. Darkfall seems to be taking it to the extreme case and the new Mortal Online might follow suit. Regardless of what you read about Darkfall, love it or hate it; it brought back the risk that Ultima Online had when it was popular. You might be able to switch to your skivvies in time if you get ganked, why would you want to lose equipment or items to someone who just lives to kill people. That’s the price you pay when you decide to reside on a pvp server or a pvp focused game.

Read The High Price of PVP

2 indie games choose to have FFA PVP and suddenly it's a comeback?  I highly doubt any AAA title will follow suit and add in FFA loot (unless it's on a separate server).

Personally if there is forced PvP and FFA loot then i have a problem with the game.  Opt in PvP and FFA loot sounds like an awesome game to me and i also would love to see NPC's take items off characters (insentive to go kill said NPC).

UO has always retained it's hardcore fans.

EvE has shown success in a hardcore FFA loot setting

Darkfall release

Mortal Online

AND Earthrise.

There is a trend coming. I" m not saying that FFAPVP  is going to become mainstream but the market is out there and sooner or later major companies will start taking notice.

Think about it, Blizzard is making a new IP for an mmo in the future,, what are people going to do if that is FFA PVP ?

Great article. I found out that I don't like hardcore pvp. I like pvp games like: BF2, CoD4, UT3 because of the reason that I can jump into a game, frag some ppl, and walk away. I like the "no strings attached pvp". Call me shallow but I game for one reason, to have fun :)

Now my defintion of hardcore pvp is putting items/levels/time on the line every time you log in and play. To me this seems like to much drama for a video game and I don't see the value of putting in time and effort just to lose it all. It's kind of like gambling your paycheck with no payout. Now I can understand why this is fun for some people but it just isn't for me.

Well you can do it both ways.

DAoc's pvp is no risk, in fact the more you fight the less risk you face (as not fighting resulting in losses for your side).

Old muds have the best risk in pvp (duris comes to mind). You lost all your equip and exp (race depended on exp loss), but equipment was rather easy to come by, and you could always kill an enemy and get your equipment back.

UO remindeds me of this ina  way but not as easy to recover from major losses.

So what i am saying is i like high costs pvp games but re-equiping should be fairly easy. (in duris you could have a guild chest and store tons of good equipment, to re-equip).

Depends on what you have to do to recover from loss. If I have to spend hours and hours in mind numbing PvE to recover gear after each and every loss to maintain PvP viability no thanks. I don't PvP to PvE. If I have to put a reasonable amount of time into the game doing something that I don't intensely dislike after a loss that's reasonable and useful. PvP needs consequences but it needs benefits and meaningful goals too. "I won big deal" isn't the feeling I'm looking for any more than "I lost so what?" There needs to be a balance.

Each to his own. Personally I play online games to forget about the daily real life grind and the rat race that our society has become. I'm looking for a way to relax online and pvp doesn't give me that, quite the opposite in fact. I don't for one minute suppose the devs will miss me but when they force pvp down my throat I simply won't touch their game...my money, my choice.

In lotro, eq2, and other ames the pvp is a joke. The only sence you get out of is is the ownage of the other guy. If I wanted pvp I would play counterstrike.

While some live for it I don't.

Here's the thing: If you kill a monster, and it drops all of its loot, equipment, items, etc.; Why is it when a player, on otherwise even ground with the monster, does NOT drop their entire loot? As of late, every damn MMORPG shows almost NO penalty to deaths. Hell, every MMORPG I've played other than the one I own a server of has NEVER had a monster loot your grave, and generally, no matter how cool looking, swift moving, or seemingly intelligent ANY monster is... if it isn't flipping stealing all your stuff and wearing the useful bits itself, then the monster is an idiot. Which is considerably sad when neither Mage nor MindFlayer does so.

Now, I can hear everyone's groans and moans against me, but there's the thing: the more advanced and 3-dimensional a game gets, the apparently "better" it gets in player opinion. The fact stands that everyone wants an online game in which it's a flawless concept of real life, one in which you can do anything your heart desires, from the comfort of your own home. Climbing mountains, sailing seas, soaring the skys... And yet, there's always one teeny thing missing...

Oh yes, FAIR PLAY. Now, I'm talking this on a few levels, and yet, not the level that popped into your head instantly. It honestly, HONESTLY does not matter on which level the playable classes, races, whatever are balanced. If there was no 'hard' or 'easy' races, then there'd be no actual reward of playing those races. Certainly everyone would be the easy race first, but after mastering it, in this scenario, you could try your hand at a different character, and find a considerable difference in difficulty and gameplay. If every race is identical in structure as to balance everything, then there's no place new to go after mastering it, and there really isn't any replay value.

Anyway, the means of "Fair play" by which I speak, is simply one word: "Death". By every means and in every (online) game, Death is one of those things every programmer, no matter how big the company, is still having trouble with. And it's because of the players. Now, everyone will obviously throw their controller down, bash their keyboard, gnaw on their mouse; whichever interface they prefer. But the bottom line stands: There's zero penalty for player deaths in most recent, allegedly "Good" online games. And yet, whenever anything you kill dies, it drops everything for you to take.

It's the same in both PvP and normal monster kills: If it dies, drops everything, and you get to keep whatever you like, why is it the same doesn't apply when you die?

And yet, the answer is quite simple. It's your fault. The fault of the player. Why? Because you'll continuously bitch and complain about a teeny matter that everyone else enjoyed. And I don't know if you've existed lately, but hardly anybody sends a "You're doing a great job!" letter or email to the company, anymore. So you know, whenever you make a complaint, all they see is the complaints. And this is the same with every game, every genre, every damn little thing. You pick and stab, over and over, and the result is a mess. Then, when you love it, everyone else hates it.

So you know what? Don't bitch and complain about how the developers and administrators maintain their server. If there's a problem you just can't stand, either grit your teeth and overcome it, or turn off the flipping power button. The more you complain, the worse the progress and development gets. And then, when a freelancer presents their game to a website like this one, it never makes the list, because it isn't an official development company. Even if the game play, mechanics, and PvP is damn better than anything an 'official' could pump out if it killed them.
 

"Something for everyone"? "Something" can still be "one thing".

_{(Incidentally, PM me to know more about my MoA2 server.)}

---

Originally posted by Cyborg99
Great article. I found out that I don't like hardcore pvp. I like pvp games like: BF2, CoD4, UT3 because of the reason that I can jump into a game, frag some ppl, and walk away. I like the "no strings attached pvp". Call me shallow but I game for one reason, to have fun :)
Now my defintion of hardcore pvp is putting items/levels/time on the line every time you log in and play. To me this seems like to much drama for a video game and I don't see the value of putting in time and effort just to lose it all. It's kind of like gambling your paycheck with no payout. Now I can understand why this is fun for some people but it just isn't for me.

---

This is right where I stand. I like to have fun. Whether that means playing and enjoying a storyline or mindlessly bashing in some AI opponents...it's all about fun. I don't play games that aren't fun....and for me...putting the hurt on another human just isn't fun. I don't take enjoyment in knowing that because of me someone has to work back to the point before I met them. In other words, I don't take enjoyment in the suffering of other human beings.

No strings attached PvP is fine...I prefer PvE though most of the time since most of the time PvP is still about trying to make the other person suffer even if there are no strings attached. Whether it's trash talk or trying to humiliate someone in the community...it disgusts me. That's why I PvE most of the time...the AI is a dummy opponent I can take joy in making suffer all day long without any repercussions. I can beat them up to no end and they'll keep coming back for more. That is fun. It is an escape from real life...which is why I play games.

 There are a percentage of gamers that like the FFA style of PvP.  I don't particularly only as I've not seen it incorporated in a meaningful way into a game - defending my town/city or taking another sure.  But roving bands of people looking for someone to kill just isn't my style nor do I find it fun.  

I do like PvP, but I have to have a reason to do it, so prefer the 'easy' PvP way battlegrounds or scenarios - everyone knows why they're there and I have no problem killing anyone in that arena.   You're in or near my town/area I'm going to try and kill you.  You're bothing me, friends, guidies - open season.  But I haven't seen a game yet that motivated me to want to kill someone just to see what loot they're carrying.

I do think though if you're on a PvP server it should be that everyone is flagged all the time after you leave the start area, no safe zones.  I wouldn't even mind if a percentage of what you're carrying can be looted, but full loot leaving you naked - it would require to much pve activity to replace it.   Not interested in that.

Originally posted by ZarroTsu

Here's the thing: If you kill a monster, and it drops all of its loot, equipment, items, etc.; Why is it when a player, on otherwise even ground with the monster, does NOT drop their entire loot? As of late, every damn MMORPG shows almost NO penalty to deaths. Hell, every MMORPG I've played other than the one I own a server of has NEVER had a monster loot your grave, and generally, no matter how cool looking, swift moving, or seemingly intelligent ANY monster is... if it isn't flipping stealing all your stuff and wearing the useful bits itself, then the monster is an idiot. Which is considerably sad when neither Mage nor MindFlayer does so.

Now, I can hear everyone's groans and moans against me, but there's the thing: the more advanced and 3-dimensional a game gets, the apparently "better" it gets in player opinion. The fact stands that everyone wants an online game in which it's a flawless concept of real life, one in which you can do anything your heart desires, from the comfort of your own home. Climbing mountains, sailing seas, soaring the skys... And yet, there's always one teeny thing missing...

Oh yes, FAIR PLAY. Now, I'm talking this on a few levels, and yet, not the level that popped into your head instantly. It honestly, HONESTLY does not matter on which level the playable classes, races, whatever are balanced. If there was no 'hard' or 'easy' races, then there'd be no actual reward of playing those races. Certainly everyone would be the easy race first, but after mastering it, in this scenario, you could try your hand at a different character, and find a considerable difference in difficulty and gameplay. If every race is identical in structure as to balance everything, then there's no place new to go after mastering it, and there really isn't any replay value.

Anyway, the means of "Fair play" by which I speak, is simply one word: "Death". By every means and in every (online) game, Death is one of those things every programmer, no matter how big the company, is still having trouble with. And it's because of the players. Now, everyone will obviously throw their controller down, bash their keyboard, gnaw on their mouse; whichever interface they prefer. But the bottom line stands: There's zero penalty for player deaths in most recent, allegedly "Good" online games. And yet, whenever anything you kill dies, it drops everything for you to take.

It's the same in both PvP and normal monster kills: If it dies, drops everything, and you get to keep whatever you like, why is it the same doesn't apply when you die?

And yet, the answer is quite simple. It's your fault. The fault of the player. Why? Because you'll continuously bitch and complain about a teeny matter that everyone else enjoyed. And I don't know if you've existed lately, but hardly anybody sends a "You're doing a great job!" letter or email to the company, anymore. So you know, whenever you make a complaint, all they see is the complaints. And this is the same with every game, every genre, every damn little thing. You pick and stab, over and over, and the result is a mess. Then, when you love it, everyone else hates it.

So you know what? Don't bitch and complain about how the developers and administrators maintain their server. If there's a problem you just can't stand, either grit your teeth and overcome it, or turn off the flipping power button. The more you complain, the worse the progress and development gets. And then, when a freelancer presents their game to a website like this one, it never makes the list, because it isn't an official development company. Even if the game play, mechanics, and PvP is damn better than anything an 'official' could pump out if it killed them.
 

"Something for everyone"? "Something" can still be "one thing".

_{(Incidentally, PM me to know more about my MoA2 server.)}

An old skoolers for sure, you played muds im sure of it, had to. But your right games should offer more rewards and risk, eve does and it works well for them.

FFA PvP is going to be a little niche all to itself.

Sure, some people will enjoy the rush, the risk for Extreme Loss, etc.  Problem is a vast majority of western gamers simply do NOT like FFA PvP.  Period.  It can be very frustrating to be leveling up and have some guy vastly higher that you WtfPwn you in 1 hit making you lose all your progress and have to start over.  As a developer, it is very risky to allow this to happen to newbie players as if they get frustrated by repeated ganking, they will quit and no subscription dollars from them.

Mythic tried a FFA PvP server with DAoC years ago.  A lot of people, rather loudly, demanded such a server.  So they opened up two servers Mordred and Andred.   Didn't take long for the server populations to get so low they were forced to merge the two into one.  Typically the FFA PvP Mordred has about the same population as the non-pvp server Gaheris.   Pretty much tells me that players want SOME pvp but not FFA.

Still if you like that risk, more power too ya.  Just don't ever expect a FFA PvP game to be a big hit in western countries.

Originally posted by Greenie

Think about it, Blizzard is making a new IP for an mmo in the future,, what are people going to do if that is FFA PVP ?

The vast majority of them will probably do what I'll do and ignore it. Why would I want to spend hours and hours getting my character kitted out the way I want it so someone 20 levels above me can come along and swipe the lot without even breaking sweat?

I have to disagree. In PVP, risk should never be a factor, and I can name one reason why. Pirates of the Burning Sea.

POTBS was set up as a PVP game, ideally. THe Gank Squads plus the Elitism of the guilds pretty much made it such a hostile enviroment that pretty much only the Beta Players are still playing the game. No PVP for anyone under 50. The Red Circles prevent people from leveling, and guilds won't protect the 'noobs' from the Gank Squads... and of course, the Gank Squads won't engage other fleets, either. The sheer hostility and one sidedness makes people wish they could get the money they paid for the game back.

By removing the risk from PVP, you can ensure people will return back to it. The more risk there is, the less likely people will return to play, as only a fool asks to pay money to get their stuff stolen. You might get a thrill from taking other peoples stuff, or getting the snott beat out of you, but most players will not tolerate such childish or masocistic behavior.

While I enjoy PVP occasionally, I would rather it be a test of skill, then a test of Who Has The Best Junk, or How Many People Can We Get To Kill One Tiny Ship.

Originally posted by DrowNoble

Mythic tried a FFA PvP server with DAoC years ago.  A lot of people, rather loudly, demanded such a server.  So they opened up two servers Mordred and Andred.   Didn't take long for the server populations to get so low they were forced to merge the two into one.  Typically the FFA PvP Mordred has about the same population as the non-pvp server Gaheris.   Pretty much tells me that players want SOME pvp but not FFA.

Still if you like that risk, more power too ya.  Just don't ever expect a FFA PvP game to be a big hit in western countries.

Actually, I was doing comparisons for some people who thought Open PvP was the way to go for some other MMO and Mordred would often have only 7-14 people on it *period*. Gaheris would have 100-130 while the normal servers would have about 300 total.

That should tell people something. More people like to work together than suffer at the hands of griefers (What a shock!)

FFA PvP only works if the cost of dying is low because if its high, you end up with UO at the end of its life (Everyone migrating to the PvE side, or leaving the game). Only takes a few rotten apples to spoil the game, and that's typically what happens in Open PvP games that have itemization and character progression (beyond simply levels = different loadouts available, aka Planetside).

Originally posted by Kensan_Oni

I have to disagree. In PVP, risk should never be a factor, and I can name one reason why. Pirates of the Burning Sea.

POTBS was set up as a PVP game, ideally. THe Gank Squads plus the Elitism of the guilds pretty much made it such a hostile enviroment that pretty much only the Beta Players are still playing the game. No PVP for anyone under 50. The Red Circles prevent people from leveling, and guilds won't protect the 'noobs' from the Gank Squads... and of course, the Gank Squads won't engage other fleets, either. The sheer hostility and one sidedness makes people wish they could get the money they paid for the game back.

By removing the risk from PVP, you can ensure people will return back to it. The more risk there is, the less likely people will return to play, as only a fool asks to pay money to get their stuff stolen. You might get a thrill from taking other peoples stuff, or getting the snott beat out of you, but most players will not tolerate such childish or masocistic behavior.

While I enjoy PVP occasionally, I would rather it be a test of skill, then a test of Who Has The Best Junk, or How Many People Can We Get To Kill One Tiny Ship.

 

Good. It wouldn't really be "Pirates" of the burning sea, without the pirates huh. They are no gank squads, you just gotta look out for the pirates. At least bitch about being griefed in a game where the act is not in character.
 

Originally posted by eric_w66

Actually, I was doing comparisons for some people who thought Open PvP was the way to go for some other MMO and Mordred would often have only 7-14 people on it *period*. Gaheris would have 100-130 while the normal servers would have about 300 total.

That should tell people something. More people like to work together than suffer at the hands of griefers (What a shock!)

FFA PvP only works if the cost of dying is low because if its high, you end up with UO at the end of its life (Everyone migrating to the PvE side, or leaving the game). Only takes a few rotten apples to spoil the game, and that's typically what happens in Open PvP games that have itemization and character progression (beyond simply levels = different loadouts available, aka Planetside).

 

You're taking populations recently about Mordred as opposed to daoc's prime. What killed mordred was large guilds that won the gear race and made it impossible for small guilds to function or compete. Had there been more controls such as max guild populations and alliance populations they server might have survived longer. Had ToA not shown up the server might have stayed healthy longer.

Also, if you combine every other server's population to Gaheris you'd see people do want confict and competition against each other.

I agree thought itemization is a key component in making or breaking your pvp.

Folks are not gonna pay a monthly subscription to get ganked and lose gear. Most folks

 I think im in the croud where i would enjoy at least partial looting of a player, maybe a choice of 1-2 items equipped, and a certain amount of items they were carrying.  As long as gear was not too hard to regain after a loss, i believe people wouldnt mind, and it would give a real thrill to PvP again.  

Even if the loss isnt devastating, it is still a loss, so you will fight your best every time to keep your stuff.

This game would theoretically have easier PvE, or even a system where PvE doesn't just give you something to wear, maybe experience in a different way, where equipment isnt a pivital point of a character.   As much as a good sword would help a knight, his skill and experience in battle should be the largest factor.