Originally posted by mannyman

Originally posted by daarco

So if its not as in WoW...it is a fail? Thats a good way to shrink your gaming world view.

In Darkfall things work DIFFERENT then in meanstream MMOs. That dont mean it is bad programing or bad design. And if you dont like that, there must be about 500 other MMOs that use other ways, that you can play instead.

I dont know what is happening to people today. Its the thing with music, cars, clothes, movies, gardens, swimming, fishing or whatever. Just because someone does something in a way you are not used to.....dont mean it is wrong.

 

 

Hate to break thish to you, you may want to sit down.

The PVE in DF works exactly like the PVE in WoW (since out of the blue you brought WoW up) - except it works in the same way as if Blizzard had said half way through developing the PVE in WoW "OK guys, so we have mobs that run away when their health is low, lets call it a day and move on, we can call it 'advanced AI' or something and tell everyone that the mobs stress tested the servers. It's cool"

WoW's PVE mobs make Df's look like stumbling idiots, and quiet rightly so.

The quest system in DF is exatly the same as WoW's - substitute "Collect 10 boar brains" for "Kill some crappy orc things" and hey, guess what? It's EXACTLY the same, except in WoW it all works, perfectly. It may not be for everyone, but it works.

PVP - Now, DF has a lot of systems in place, the politics stuff which rocks, it's a really good addition to the game, but one on one?

WoW beats DF to hell and back, apart from the arcade feel (now sadly) of WoW's constant treadmaill of point scoring, when it comes down to actual PVP mechanics WoW has DF beat, no question about it. In DF it's 10 people spamming the same stuff, at least in WoW classes make fights a little interesting, especially if you and a group of freinds decide to create a little world PVP, when that happens WoW has DF beat.

Full loot vs WoW's no loot? Well, the way I see it is this. Gather a group of level 80 guys in WoW and let them all buy crap armour for 10 silver from a vendor, if they lose it so what? They can loot the same crap armour off a level 3 bear. That is how DF works. But for some reason it is seen as some sort of big deal. I play DF, no one fights in anything other than the equvalent of crappy vendor bought WoW gear.

Finally you say there are 500 other games for people to play? You should be careful there buddy telling people to basically 'GTFO' I played AoC for a few months, and guess what, after being told by that community to 'Go back to WoW' a lot did, and look at that shell of a game now.

Once again, I am ashamed by the 'fans' of this game.

Lets extend your argument a bit.

In WoW PvP or PvE has been pushed by the elistist (from elistjerks, not meant in a negative way) into near science.  People talk about hit rating, dodge rates, deadzones, and thus gear, tactic, group tactics.  There are endless combo to match talents, gear and tactics.  Counter tactics.  There are gemming considerations, enchant considerations.  The game provides variety and thoughts.

In DF, there is only one thing, macro to max and then zerg, everyone clicking just 1 button like a mad man and pray it hits the enemy and not the friend.  No one ever talks about character development, as there is no option, everyone max everything.  No one ever talks about tactics, as its cheater vs cheater.  He who use the best cheat wins.

In WoW there is a solid mature community that makes life pleasant.  Turn off /2 and life is decent.  Guildies exist to help, as no one is all powerful.  Interdependence breeds partnership.  There is active and serious trading (inflation is a bad problem tho), there is grouping for PvE, there is grouping for WG, there is people everywhere, even in lvl 1 zones.  In DF, guild cities are places to hide and /afk macro, guilds are places to share the cheating tools.  The rest of the community is pure crap.

Suddenly, I stop and ask, why are we comparing DF to WoW.  No, no, no.  DF does not deserve being compared to WoW, DF should be compared to DnL.  WoW can be compared to Aion, to upcoming SW:ToR.  That is where the leading pack is, where comparison makes sense.  Stop comparing DF to anything better than DnL.  That is the cheap marketing trick of DF bots, they are trying to sell DF as something way bigger than what is, and what is it?  A pile of turd providing only ffa pvp amongst an obnoxious community.

Do you know why they always bring up WoW when trying to hard sell DF?  B/c they hope their pile of turd can be compared to WoW and hence pass off as an alternate to WoW.  No.  DF is not an alternate to anything, but DnL.

Originally posted by daarco

"Everyone i know used loot macro because its a flawed loot system in Darkfall"

Thats a pretty lame excuse. People use loot macros in every MMO. It have nothing to do with the loot system. Its about lazy people who dont have any real interest in the game they are playing! And so they cheat.

Bingo! You get the gold star for the day <insert gold star here since there is no emoticon for it>

Although....I would also add that they have no real ability for playing old school style games. You actually have to pay attention that that would be too much to stuff into their heads. They want an MMO play style that is closer to watching TV with remote in hand, you know, like WoW. in fact, I think channel surfing is harder than playing WoW.

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by daarco

"Everyone i know used loot macro because its a flawed loot system in Darkfall"

Thats a pretty lame excuse. People use loot macros in every MMO. It have nothing to do with the loot system. Its about lazy people who dont have any real interest in the game they are playing! And so they cheat.

 

Bingo! You get the gold star for the day <insert gold star here since there is no emoticon for it>

Although....I would also add that they have no real ability for playing old school style games. You actually have to pay attention that that would be too much to stuff into their heads. They want an MMO play style that is closer to watching TV with remote in hand, you know, like WoW. in fact, I think channel surfing is harder than playing WoW.

See?  Another lamely disguised attempt to compare DF to WoW.

How lame.  They can find no way to praise their baby but comparing their dead baby to the best game out there.  How do they compare?  Blindly criticize the best game out there, and hideously pretend their dead baby is an alternate.  Lame lame lame.

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by daarco

"Everyone i know used loot macro because its a flawed loot system in Darkfall"

Thats a pretty lame excuse. People use loot macros in every MMO. It have nothing to do with the loot system. Its about lazy people who dont have any real interest in the game they are playing! And so they cheat.

 

Bingo! You get the gold star for the day <insert gold star here since there is no emoticon for it>

Although....I would also add that they have no real ability for playing old school style games. You actually have to pay attention that that would be too much to stuff into their heads. They want an MMO play style that is closer to watching TV with remote in hand, you know, like WoW. in fact, I think channel surfing is harder than playing WoW.

 

See?  Another lamely disguised attempt to compare DF to WoW.

How lame.  They can find no way to praise their baby but comparing their dead baby to the best game out there.  How do they compare?  Blindly criticize the best game out there, and hideously pretend their dead baby is an alternate.  Lame lame lame.

The best game out there? Hahahahahahahaha....oops, I think I peed a little...

EDIT: Hey, didn't recognize your name until after I posted. Still picking arguments with people I see. Not playing with you this time either.

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by daarco

"Everyone i know used loot macro because its a flawed loot system in Darkfall"

Thats a pretty lame excuse. People use loot macros in every MMO. It have nothing to do with the loot system. Its about lazy people who dont have any real interest in the game they are playing! And so they cheat.

 

Bingo! You get the gold star for the day <insert gold star here since there is no emoticon for it>

Although....I would also add that they have no real ability for playing old school style games. You actually have to pay attention that that would be too much to stuff into their heads. They want an MMO play style that is closer to watching TV with remote in hand, you know, like WoW. in fact, I think channel surfing is harder than playing WoW.

 

See?  Another lamely disguised attempt to compare DF to WoW.

How lame.  They can find no way to praise their baby but comparing their dead baby to the best game out there.  How do they compare?  Blindly criticize the best game out there, and hideously pretend their dead baby is an alternate.  Lame lame lame.

The best game out there? Hahahahahahahaha....oops, I think I peed a little...

Go spin again, go pee, that proves anything?  Nothing.  You can pee all day long, does not make you funny, does not make you intelligent, does not make any argument, just pee.

Well if peeing is all you can say about the topic, thank you for contributing your pee.  Next time if you need to derail try bring up DnL, it is a more valid comparison to DF.  DF cannot compare to WoW in any objective standard.

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by daarco

"Everyone i know used loot macro because its a flawed loot system in Darkfall"

Thats a pretty lame excuse. People use loot macros in every MMO. It have nothing to do with the loot system. Its about lazy people who dont have any real interest in the game they are playing! And so they cheat.

 

Bingo! You get the gold star for the day <insert gold star here since there is no emoticon for it>

Although....I would also add that they have no real ability for playing old school style games. You actually have to pay attention that that would be too much to stuff into their heads. They want an MMO play style that is closer to watching TV with remote in hand, you know, like WoW. in fact, I think channel surfing is harder than playing WoW.

 

See?  Another lamely disguised attempt to compare DF to WoW.

How lame.  They can find no way to praise their baby but comparing their dead baby to the best game out there.  How do they compare?  Blindly criticize the best game out there, and hideously pretend their dead baby is an alternate.  Lame lame lame.

The best game out there? Hahahahahahahaha....oops, I think I peed a little...

EDIT: Hey, didn't recognize your name until after I posted. Still picking arguments with people I see. Not playing with you this time either.

Oh yeah same old tactics, when you run out of spin, you go personal.

No problem, you need a backdoor to bail?  Go go go, RIP.

I don't like WoW, played the trial and never returned.

But, let me ask you a question, then: What is the best game out there? And, what's more, what makes a game great?

I cannot honestly answer that myself. I have my favorites, though (UO, DAoC, Vanguard, City of Heroes, EVE). Why? Because they provide (or provided), totally or at least partially, some important little details:

1 - Honest company backing it up (Only argument here would be Vanguard being bought by Sony, but, hey, if that did not happen, the game would be closed now. Not that bad, then).

2 - Solid Client/Server

3 - Good Community, and by community I mean people you love and hate, but respect nonetheless, not chickens running around without their heads. That's why we have PvE mobs.

4 - Evolution curve (and I do realize this is open to discussion)

5 - Clear direction and identity. EVE is PvP all the way, so most of their resources go there. The opposite goes to Vanguard, present king of PvE, imo. The games above understand, however, that you need at least a modicum of the opposite flavor, because options are good (as long as you don't lose focus). DFO hailed itself an "brutal PVP", but had to recognize that without at least a mediocre PvE, you're going nowhere fast.

6 - Playability. Here's where the promises shine or fail. And the games above hit the target dead center. They are fun to play, even being quite different with one another.

7 - Depth. This is probably what really makes me shy away from Darkfall. The is no depth. just movespeed and AoE spells. It's very, very, very shallow. The games above cater to the FotM player, to the minimaxer, to the underdog guy. You have options, and lots of them.

Of all points mentioned above, I can't judge DFO only when talking about Evolution curve, because the game is still too young. However, it fails miserably in the other 6 topics.

To Strix:

The favourite games for me?  DAoC and SWG, while it lasts.

I try not to be so scientific when I look at games.  I loosely call the deciding factor: gameplay.  Do I want to log on, when I got other options.  During a galestorm, I will log on game A intead of game B, so Game A > Game B.  When the storm is over, and I got news of a BBQ feast nextdoor, do I want to grab a chicken wing and come back to my room loggin onto Game A.  That is where gameplay works or fails.

Couple factors do contribute to gameplay, but not every game need to score high on all aspects.  Sometimes a game with just 1 aspect will keep me loggin back on.  A game that is nice on all aspects might not be able to bring me online (LOTRo).

Community is one aspect.  I do not want to log on and turn off all chats in order to tolerate my online session.  I can play streetfighter with my neighbor, and entertain both of us and our families.  I want to be online at least partly b/c of the people online.

Variety is another factor.  Do I have a choice of things to do, some of them fun at least.  WoW is good in this aspect as it gives options, from solo to small groups to raids.  Long raids, short raids.  There is always something to do, at least, whether you like it or not.  DAoC was another example.  Back then, the frontier is always busy during the active hours I am online, and occasionally if I stayed online beyond the active hours, I have still 2 top ranking crafters to work on, and a long list of orders to fill.  Now arguably, DAoC has much less variety, but the main activity (RvR) is engaging enough and there are enough related activities (replacing worn out gear) to fill the few odd hours.

SWG beats all when it comes to variety.  There are just so many non combat things to do.  The crafting is the best.  Merchant is fun.  Looking for player houses, checking goods on sale is fun.  Looking for jobs from merchants is fun.  BH is fun (ok BH is combat in a way).

I have yet to try out DF, I do wonder if there is a way to talk myself to giving it a try.  The community is aweful enough by any standard.  The gameplay does not yet provide real options or "freedom".  Just clubbing each other silly on the first sight is just too limited a form of gameplay, gameplay without reasons.  Guess I will stay wait and see.

I'm literally testing this as I write this, and my action bar switches are instantaneous. Regarless of which way I change them.

Originally posted by tombear81

 I'm afriad those two points dont make darkfall a good game. I suspect the UI was done awhile ago and left for many many development iterations.

Now to make DF a good game address the other points about the game shall we? Oh and the points about AV practices. 

seems ot me its alot of newbie mistakes and alot of other compainies do the same thing so meh

You're doing what many of us have done, struggling to find reason to praise AV. Many of us have given up and moved on to other games. As far as the Looting and the hotbar switching, I wish you were correct but no. With the ability to assign the individual boxes to a key the switching no longer has a reason to be slow since a simple press of the key is faster than hotbar switching. So sadly you are mistaken about the hotbar.

Now, on to full loot. This is actually something they really needed to get right but failed to. Without adding any sort of delay or anything remotely similar many players have been encouraged to create auto loot macro's. This defeats the purpose of the dragging loot 1 by 1 from the corpse to your backpack. These macro's are simple to make and can be made in a variety of ways. I think theres even one floating around out there that was made with a G11 keyboard maybe it was a G15.

Originally posted by wyrdaskolir

Just here to clarify some things. AV gives 24 hr bans to people using loot macros since they can detect it. The hotbar system actually requires skill because if you fumble with it during combat you will die. As a highly developed character I have 4 bars full of hotbarred skills, food, potions, spells, buffs, utility spells which makes it sometimes difficult to fight. I use F1-F4 to switch between the four bars and other buttons on my keyboard for special spells. In this game you need to learn how to use the hotbar effectively and quickly in order to beat others.

That's not a very good argument for the implementation and makes the UI (the hotbars at least) sound as clunky as it's been described.

The interface is supposed to be transparent and intuitive to the player. *Playing the game* itself - fighting other players, etc - should be the challenge, not figuring out how to use a cumbersome interface that seems to get in the way. If the interface calls that much attention to itself, then it's not transparent and it's not a well designed UI.

Don't take my word for it, though... Do some research on interface design; it's all well explained.

But again, what it sounds like is DF's hot bars are poorly implemented and call far too much attention to them, and away from the action happening around your character on the screen.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

You're doing what many of us have done, struggling to find reason to praise AV. Many of us have given up and moved on to other games. As far as the Looting and the hotbar switching, I wish you were correct but no. With the ability to assign the individual boxes to a key the switching no longer has a reason to be slow since a simple press of the key is faster than hotbar switching. So sadly you are mistaken about the hotbar.

Now, on to full loot. This is actually something they really needed to get right but failed to. Without adding any sort of delay or anything remotely similar many players have been encouraged to create auto loot macro's. This defeats the purpose of the dragging loot 1 by 1 from the corpse to your backpack. These macro's are simple to make and can be made in a variety of ways. I think theres even one floating around out there that was made with a G11 keyboard maybe it was a G15.

You've given up on Darkfall and Aventurine and moved on to other games already?, from my recollection you were one of most ardent supporters of this game here pre launch and I think we locked horns quite a few times.

I also noticed a few of your somewhat critical posts on the official forums recently, please dont tell me you are now officially a troll hater.

I use the arrow keys to move. I asign row 2 of my hotbar 1-6 to the 6 keys above my arrow keys and put equipment in those boxes. Then i switch back to row 1 with all the boxes filled with spells/skills. I can hit the keys above my arrows to use the skills in row 2 without it switching to row 2. So i usually load my weapon shield bow staff , equipment usually ect in row 2 and all my skills and spells in row 1. That way i can change between my equipment without switching over to row 2 just by pressing one of the keys above my arrows. Does that make sense? You can hotbar any box in any row to any key. So you just have to remember whats on the other bars, though you cant see em.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

I use the arrow keys to move. I asign row 2 of my hotbar 1-6 to the 6 keys above my arrow keys and put equipment in those boxes. Then i switch back to row 1 with all the boxes filled with spells/skills. I can hit the keys above my arrows to use the skills in row 2 without it switching to row 2. So i usually load my weapon shield bow staff , equipment usually ect in row 2 and all my skills and spells in row 1. That way i can change between my equipment without switching over to row 2 just by pressing one of the keys above my arrows. Does that make sense? You can hotbar any box in any row to any key. So you just have to remember whats on the other bars, though you cant see em.

I used to do that in WoW, it works well, doesn't it?