IMO, this is an argument I see constantly from Solo advocates when they talk about groupers or "forced grouping".

It goes liike this:

You say you like to group. Well, I'm going to LET you group. In other words, you can click on other players, and then a "group dialog" window will pop up. There will be a little window that says "group".

There, you are grouped. Since you like to group, you will be happy now, because you're in a "group".

I can now change all the rules of the entire game however I want to, but as long as I give you a little window that says "group" you should be happy, because you are grouped.

If you are not happy with this, then I'm going to conclude that really, you don't like grouping.

I should then be able to make grouping entirely pointless, with even less xp than solo play, with no special loot bonuses, with no REAL challenge for groups because all the dungeons scale, and you should be happy.

Why will you be happy with this game, even though the rules have destroyed all the reasons you actually like grouping?

Because I gave you a little window that says "group". That's all you need. If you're not satisfied with that, then really, you don't like grouping, you just want to level faster or show off your loot to solo players.

Uh no, actually I want a good grouping game, and a little window that says "group" doesn't really do that. There actaully needs to be soome GAME MECHANICS that make grouping fun, BESIDES a little window that says "group" on it.

In fact, I will take the GAME MECHANICS over the little window that says "group" on it. You can get rid fo that window altogether if you want, but design a good team based game with challenges that cannot be avoided, challenges that don't scale, and real team work required to overcome those challenges.

And then the game will fail because nobody wants to play it, the servers will shut down, and you'll be back to whining about how you want people to be forced to group with you.  Yes, we get it.  How many times do you plan on making this same argument?  Do you think you're changing things?  Do you think you're changing the minds of those who have lives and can't dedicate 4 hours a night to raiding?  What, exactly, is your point?

I think the whole discussion between anti and pro grouping people is unfair anyway. The pro groupers are always in superior numbers.

Why another thread when there are already half a dozen on the exact same topic?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

There actaully needs to be soome GAME MECHANICS that make grouping fun, BESIDES a little window that says "group" on it.

On that point, I'm with you.  I'll never bother grouping until they make it worth my while.

Originally posted by madeux

And then the game will fail because nobody wants to play it, the servers will shut down, and you'll be back to whining about how you want people to be forced to group with you.  Yes, we get it.  How many times do you plan on making this same argument?  Do you think you're changing things?  Do you think you're changing the minds of those who have lives and can't dedicate 4 hours a night to raiding?  What, exactly, is your point?

You are absolutely right just like how FFXI was shut down and no one plays it any more..

Oh wait it still has 500k subs?

What?

Huh?

Oh you are horribly wrong I see...

I think the best Compromise to this issue is to make some things in game only accomplishable by soloing, and other things only accomplishable by grouping. I don't know if that is necessarily the best solution, but it is the best compromise.

Originally posted by madeux

And then the game will fail because nobody wants to play it, the servers will shut down, and you'll be back to whining about how you want people to be forced to group with you.  Yes, we get it.  How many times do you plan on making this same argument?  Do you think you're changing things?  Do you think you're changing the minds of those who have lives and can't dedicate 4 hours a night to raiding?  What, exactly, is your point?

That is not really a response to my post.

That is about the MMORPG and video game industry, and what you think will make more profits, etc., etc.

I would appreciate it if instead of hijacking the thread to talk about the video game industry profits, you would respond to the post, and make a statement about grouping, and what  in your opinion makes a good grouping game, and what does not.

Do you agree with my post or not, regardless of your statement about MMORPG profit analysis?

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I think the best Compromise to this issue is to make some things in game only accomplishable by soloing, and other things only accomplishable by grouping. I don't know if that is necessarily the best solution, but it is the best compromise.

So far, from the posts we have seen from advocates of optional solo play, I'd say almost every one of them would be 100% for that. It's the forced grouping crowd that would need to bend a bit to make that happen though.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by madeux

And then the game will fail because nobody wants to play it, the servers will shut down, and you'll be back to whining about how you want people to be forced to group with you.  Yes, we get it.  How many times do you plan on making this same argument?  Do you think you're changing things?  Do you think you're changing the minds of those who have lives and can't dedicate 4 hours a night to raiding?  What, exactly, is your point?

 

That is not really a response to my post.

That is about the MMORPG and video game industry, and what you think will make more profits, etc., etc.

I would appreciate it if instead of hijacking the thread to talk about the video game industry profits, you would respond to the post, and make a statement about grouping, and what  in your opinion makes a good grouping game, and what does not.

Do you agree with my post or not, regardless of your statement about MMORPG profit analysis?

Profit analysis will decide the type of grouping that ends up in a game.  It's completely relevant.  Do you cry thread hijacking everyone points out the flaws in your arguments?

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I think the best Compromise to this issue is to make some things in game only accomplishable by soloing, and other things only accomplishable by grouping. I don't know if that is necessarily the best solution, but it is the best compromise.

I think that's a fair compromise.

My biggest complaint is when solo advocates say, it doesn't affect me if they make the dungeon scale, so that they can solo it.

Of course it does affect me. Why in the world would I take all the time and trouble to group for something that I can just solo? The fun of grouping is diminished, because the challenge is removed. Sure, I might group to do it, but that's a crappy group game, because it was pointless to group. There was no REASON to group, since you can just solo it.

So, stop with the argument that if you can do something BOTH ways, group and solo, that's good for grouping. It's not. That's good for soloing, but removes the challenge from grouping and makes it pointless.

However, if you want to do 50/50 and make the game half group required, and half solo required OK, fine with me.

The trick is, you cannot avoid EITEHR part of the game. So, to get to level 20 from level 19, you MUST do X solo content, AND X group content.

You can't just solo and skip the group content, you can't just group and skip the solo content. Indeed, I would find that to be fair. I would grimace at doing the solo content, and the solo players would grimace at doing the group content, but at least it would be REAL worthwhile and challenging group content that cannot be avoided.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

IMO, this is an argument I see constantly from Solo advocates when they talk about groupers or "forced grouping".

It goes liike this:

You say you like to group. Well, I'm going to LET you group. In other words, you can click on other players, and then a "group dialog" window will pop up. There will be a little window that says "group".

There, you are grouped. Since you like to group, you will be happy now, because you're in a "group".

I can now change all the rules of the entire game however I want to, but as long as I give you a little window that says "group" you should be happy, because you are grouped.

If you are not happy with this, then I'm going to conclude that really, you don't like grouping.

I should then be able to make grouping entirely pointless, with even less xp than solo play, with no special loot bonuses, with no REAL challenge for groups because all the dungeons scale, and you should be happy.

Why will you be happy with this game, even though the rules have destroyed all the reasons you actually like grouping?

Because I gave you a little window that says "group". That's all you need. If you're not satisfied with that, then really, you don't like grouping, you just want to level faster or show off your loot to solo players.

Uh no, actually I want a good grouping game, and a little window that says "group" doesn't really do that. There actaully needs to be soome GAME MECHANICS that make grouping fun, BESIDES a little window that says "group" on it.

In fact, I will take the GAME MECHANICS over the little window that says "group" on it. You can get rid fo that window altogether if you want, but design a good team based game with challenges that cannot be avoided, challenges that don't scale, and real team work required to overcome those challenges.

 

Im sorry, Im not seeing this at all. But here we go.

Senraio 1

Quest Kill X monster

solo - guy 10 mins

2X Guys - 5 mins

3X guys - 3  mins

4X guys 1 min

So, grouping benifits every games quest chain pretty much as there almost all go kill X number, so yea, saying grouping has no benifits is BS as you can complete quests much faster, which gives you much more xp, which lvls you quicker.

Scenario 2

Instances,

Solo guy - can't do jack until his so powerful the gear is worth nothing, cannot complete the quests in the instance which give uber gear.

Group Guys - clean instance, get decent money, gear and xp.

Scenario 3

Hunting or mob grinding

solo guy - ganked by any player in the area

group guys - protect and defend each otehr and do not get pked unless by someone much higher lvl

So right there, every mmo. Even the casual pve ones have better benifits of being in groups. The people complaining about these so called solo mmo's are just blind.

Groups protect ect each other, get things done faster and can do harder challenges. AND thats every mmo that is not pvp based. Stop your complaining and you diagnosis of the genre as its poor, and your not proving anything. Just stop. No game hinders grouping, point 1 out and tell me why (only pve games as pvp are ment to be solo imo). 

The scenarios I provided are mmo wide, welcome to the real world.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I think the best Compromise to this issue is to make some things in game only accomplishable by soloing, and other things only accomplishable by grouping. I don't know if that is necessarily the best solution, but it is the best compromise.

 

So far, from the posts we have seen from advocates of optional solo play, I'd say almost every one of them would be 100% for that. It's the forced grouping crowd that would need to bend a bit to make that happen though.

 

 

Or we could have two ways to accomplish the same thing?  Those who want the fun of grouping will have a way to do it, as will those who prefer/need to solo.

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by madeux

And then the game will fail because nobody wants to play it, the servers will shut down, and you'll be back to whining about how you want people to be forced to group with you.  Yes, we get it.  How many times do you plan on making this same argument?  Do you think you're changing things?  Do you think you're changing the minds of those who have lives and can't dedicate 4 hours a night to raiding?  What, exactly, is your point?

 

That is not really a response to my post.

That is about the MMORPG and video game industry, and what you think will make more profits, etc., etc.

I would appreciate it if instead of hijacking the thread to talk about the video game industry profits, you would respond to the post, and make a statement about grouping, and what  in your opinion makes a good grouping game, and what does not.

Do you agree with my post or not, regardless of your statement about MMORPG profit analysis?

 

Profit analysis will decide the type of grouping that ends up in a game.  It's completely relevant.  Do you cry thread hijacking everyone points out the flaws in your arguments?

It's not a "flaw" in the argument, it is simply off topic.

The argument is waht makes a GOOD grouping game. It is irrelevant if this game makes a profit or not.

If you don't wish to join in the discussion, then don't.

If you wish to join in the discussion, then the question is, what makes a GOOD grouping game? Do you agree with the OP or not, which has nothing to do with profits?

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by madeux

And then the game will fail because nobody wants to play it, the servers will shut down, and you'll be back to whining about how you want people to be forced to group with you.  Yes, we get it.  How many times do you plan on making this same argument?  Do you think you're changing things?  Do you think you're changing the minds of those who have lives and can't dedicate 4 hours a night to raiding?  What, exactly, is your point?

 

You are absolutely right just like how FFXI was shut down and no one plays it any more..

Oh wait it still has 500k subs?

What?

Huh?

Oh you are horribly wrong I see...

The vast majority of subscribers are Easterners.  FFXI was never very popular in the West and we ARE talking about us, not them.  Two very different and seperate markets.

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I think the best Compromise to this issue is to make some things in game only accomplishable by soloing, and other things only accomplishable by grouping. I don't know if that is necessarily the best solution, but it is the best compromise.

 

So far, from the posts we have seen from advocates of optional solo play, I'd say almost every one of them would be 100% for that. It's the forced grouping crowd that would need to bend a bit to make that happen though.

 

 

 

Or we could have two ways to accomplish the same thing?  Those who want the fun of grouping will have a way to do it, as will those who prefer/need to solo.

Making group content soloable destroys the group content.

Making group content soloable, adds solo content.

So let's see, you've destroyed group content, and added solo content, and solo players are ok with that. Gee, wonder why?

This suggestion is acceptable to me, adding content that can only be soloed, and content that can only be grouped, as long as doing both of those is required and cannot be avoided. .

We make FORCED solo content, and FORCED group content.

To make progress, you MUST solo dungeon A, and go through dungeon B with a group.

I'm ok with that, because it does nto destroy the group content.

90% of what makes a good grouping game is the player base.

Forced grouping does nothing for me.  4 hours in a raid being yelled at to mindlessly fullfill your little role just isn't my definition of fun.

Grouping with friends and grinding through random quests is fun.  Grouping up to help noobs is fun.  Grouping cuz i'm in the mood is fun.

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by madeux

And then the game will fail because nobody wants to play it, the servers will shut down, and you'll be back to whining about how you want people to be forced to group with you.  Yes, we get it.  How many times do you plan on making this same argument?  Do you think you're changing things?  Do you think you're changing the minds of those who have lives and can't dedicate 4 hours a night to raiding?  What, exactly, is your point?

 

You are absolutely right just like how FFXI was shut down and no one plays it any more..

Oh wait it still has 500k subs?

What?

Huh?

Oh you are horribly wrong I see...

 

The vast majority of subscribers are Easterners.  FFXI was never very popular in the West and we ARE talking about us, not them.  Two very different and seperate markets.

Where'd you get those statistics?

I've NEVER EVER EVER seen anyone justify that FFXI wasn't that popular in the west.

Almost ALL the people I played with were from the US, and the servers they have are NOT organized by region.

I used to play with Japanese, French, and German players too but they were much MUCH more rare.  On both the servers I played on.

Both BEFORE and AFTER they allowed transfers and you to pick the region.

(At release FFXI didn't let you pick which server you started on, allowing for a truely random make up of a world community.)

Edit: I also played the game with 5 IRL friends of mine, and even made a few friends in the process, one who lived 50 minutes away from where I live and now we're the best of friends IRL too.  His wife and he come over to my place and all four of us watch movies and eat dinner and play video games together.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp 

I should then be able to make grouping entirely pointless, with even less xp than solo play, with no special loot bonuses, with no REAL challenge for groups because all the dungeons scale, and you should be happy. 

How many times (and in how many threads) am I going to have to repeat this before it sinks in?

PEOPLE THAT GROUP ADVANCE 30% FASTER THAN THOSE THAT SOLO!!!!!

Yes, you make less XP per kill, but you kill more mobs, not to mention bigger mobs. This not only makes up the difference but actually exceeds the XP rewards of solo play.

DO THE FUCKING MATH!!!!

Originally posted by madeux

90% of what makes a good grouping game is the player base.

Forced grouping does nothing for me.  4 hours in a raid being yelled at to mindlessly fullfill your little role just isn't my definition of fun.

Grouping with friends and grinding through random quests is fun.  Grouping up to help noobs is fun.  Grouping cuz i'm in the mood is fun.

You're an admitted solo advocate. You've just stated, yet again, that the entire game should be all solo content, and you can have a little "group window" if you want, and that shoujdl be fun.

Just having a little group window, as I stated in the OP, does not make grouping fun for me, and other people that enjoyed games like EQ and DAoC, before expansions, or FFXI.