Originally posted by Cephus404

Yes, I have been around for probably longer than you, I simply recognize that this is no longer a niche genre catering to anti-social twits living in their mother's basement.  The overwhelming majority of the MMO playerbase no longer wants that, that's something you're going to have to get through your head whether you want to or not.

This isn't 2002.  Stop living in the past and join the modern era.

I do not live in my mother's basement and I"m anything but anti-social.  You may say what the majority of the MMO playerbase wants or doesn't want, but you don't really know exact numbers do you? Neither do I ,, what I do know is there are many players that want grouping in game and don't want their MMO's turning into an SRPG.

I can also tell by your comments you're pretty ignorant in your responses instead of being constructive or actually providing some facts.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Vrazule

God forbid that the gaming industry should reflect the diversity of it's consumer base.

 

There's nothing wrong with diversity and for the most part, the gaming industry *IS* reflecting the diversity of it's consumer  base.  The overwhelming majority of players play solo, at least a part of the time.  Many play it almost exclusively.  Therefore, solo play is emphasized.  That doesn't stop anyone out there from playing in a group in pretty much any game you can name.  That's reflecting diversity.  Soloers have never once suggested that we stop people from grouping, it's the groupers who can't get it through their thick little heads that they can't stop soloers from soloing.

It's amazing how many people want  more diversity by eliminating... diversity.

All these games start off group content heavy, and move solo heavy with age. Theres raiding and pvp for the hardcore among the both. Everyone else can come back for the expansion. You're all happy and mad at one point. Each game goes by its own pace. It's "the" model. They are not gonna change it.

Sure, yeah.....solo....great.....uhhhh, NO.

How would you have PvP work? 1v1 centered pvp too? That IS boring, proven fact that 1v1's are boring and, in fact, impossible to balance a game around and have people stick around.

I love games with a political landscape like Eve. I used play Eve, my group did.....mmmm certain things that I have never EVER been able to do in another game since. I left Eve due to some things that happened due to the things my group did. If you can just solo everything then why would you even bother playing an online game in the first place? It doesn't make any sense.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Sure, yeah.....solo....great.....uhhhh, NO.

How would you have PvP work? 1v1 centered pvp too? That IS boring, proven fact that 1v1's are boring and, in fact, impossible to balance a game around and have people stick around.

I love games with a political landscape like Eve. I used play Eve, my group did.....mmmm certain things that I have never EVER been able to do in another game since. I left Eve due to some things that happened due to the things my group did. If you can just solo everything then why would you even bother playing an online game in the first place? It doesn't make any sense.

Because apparently Soloer's are very social people and groupers are people who want game mechanics to force people to group because they have no social skills at all regardless of the fact that  soloers continualy complain that most every person they meet in a pug is an ass or retard in a  game that makes soloing very easy which is why they solo because they can't or refuse to deal with other people.

Make sense??   Sure does to me........

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Sure, yeah.....solo....great.....uhhhh, NO.

How would you have PvP work? 1v1 centered pvp too? That IS boring, proven fact that 1v1's are boring and, in fact, impossible to balance a game around and have people stick around.

I love games with a political landscape like Eve. I used play Eve, my group did.....mmmm certain things that I have never EVER been able to do in another game since. I left Eve due to some things that happened due to the things my group did. If you can just solo everything then why would you even bother playing an online game in the first place? It doesn't make any sense.

 

Because apparently Soloer's are very social people and groupers are people who want game mechanics to force people to group because they have no social skills at all regardless of the fact that  soloers continualy complain that most every person they meet in a pug is an ass or retard in a  game that makes soloing very easy which is why they solo because they can't or refuse to deal with other people.

Make sense??   Sure does to me........

LOL exactly my point! Solo'ers don't want to deal with other people and yet somehow people who long strong guild systems are the anti-social ones O.o. I actually have good friends that play the same games I do, we love games that have strong guild systems.

I blame solo-friendly content for the increase in the amount of morons running around in games. They get used to just facerolling through everything that they run off and do really, really stupid stuff. And yet somehow more solo-friendly content is supposed to fix that?

Again, I ask: How is PvP going to work in a game like that? It won't, it will suck. Proven fact that games with boring and/or broken PvP do not see massive success.

The 'Holy Trinity' of class design is outdated though. I don't even really see where it first came from to be honest. I'm sure I could trace it if I wanted to. Bioware is trying to do away with the trinity with TOR, but they have still yet to elaborate as to how exactly that will work. We'll have to wait and see what they do, I have my theories on what is going to happen, but I'm going to reserve them for now.

Edit: Holy Trinity refers to the Tank, Healer, DPS set up that is the norm in MMO's of today. This principly applies to PvE content. The notion was likely established in order to deal with system and design limitations. In fantasy-styled games I don't see how you can change the trinity without interrupting and sense of class balance.

This is because you have swords and magic versus technology. The dynamics for design possiblity are extremely different, it's just the way things are.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

LOL exactly my point! Solo'ers don't want to deal with other people and yet somehow people who long strong guild systems are the anti-social ones O.o. I actually have good friends that play the same games I do, we love games that have strong guild systems.I blame solo-friendly content for the increase in the amount of morons running around in games. They get used to just facerolling through everything that they run off and do really, really stupid stuff. And yet somehow more solo-friendly content is supposed to fix that?Again, I ask: How is PvP going to work in a game like that? It won't, it will suck. Proven fact that games with boring and/or broken PvP do not see massive success.The 'Holy Trinity' of class design is outdated though. I don't even really see where it first came from to be honest. I'm sure I could trace it if I wanted to. Bioware is trying to do away with the trinity with TOR, but they have still yet to elaborate as to how exactly that will work. We'll have to wait and see what they do, I have my theories on what is going to happen, but I'm going to reserve them for now.

Yep I've also forgot to state that soloer's also claim to play for the challenge, but how many soloer's do you see playing healer classes?  And I dont mean the priest in it's DPS spec,, but for example a battle bard or nature druid in daoc,, an aug healer, or smite cleric? Even in Warhammer I'm pretty sure most soloer's went the DPS or Tank route over the runemaster.

I also blame solo based game partly for the morons and people who just cannot work well or play nice with others. I blame solo friendly games because there is no policing of the community by the players to ostracize assholes in a game or at least force them all to join the same guild so they are contained at the very least with a nice banner promoting their assholishness.

What I find hilarious is the solo players who are saying that people who join their pugs act like total assholes. Is that asshole really part of the grouping crowd or did he just group so he could act like an asshole and amuse himself? I"m pretty sure groupers join groups so the can work together with people in a friendly environment.

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

LOL exactly my point! Solo'ers don't want to deal with other people and yet somehow people who long strong guild systems are the anti-social ones O.o. I actually have good friends that play the same games I do, we love games that have strong guild systems.I blame solo-friendly content for the increase in the amount of morons running around in games. They get used to just facerolling through everything that they run off and do really, really stupid stuff. And yet somehow more solo-friendly content is supposed to fix that?Again, I ask: How is PvP going to work in a game like that? It won't, it will suck. Proven fact that games with boring and/or broken PvP do not see massive success.The 'Holy Trinity' of class design is outdated though. I don't even really see where it first came from to be honest. I'm sure I could trace it if I wanted to. Bioware is trying to do away with the trinity with TOR, but they have still yet to elaborate as to how exactly that will work. We'll have to wait and see what they do, I have my theories on what is going to happen, but I'm going to reserve them for now.

 

Yep I've also forgot to state that soloer's also claim to play for the challenge, but how many soloer's do you see playing healer classes?  And I dont mean the priest in it's DPS spec,, but for example a battle bard or nature druid in daoc,, an aug healer, or smite cleric? Even in Warhammer I'm pretty sure most soloer's went the DPS or Tank route over the runemaster.

I also blame solo based game partly for the morons and people who just cannot work well or play nice with others. I blame solo friendly games because there is no policing of the community by the players to ostracize assholes in a game or at least force them all to join the same guild so they are contained at the very least with a nice banner promoting their assholishness.

What I find hilarious is the solo players who are saying that people who join their pugs act like total assholes. Is that asshole really part of the grouping crowd or did he just group so he could act like an asshole and amuse himself? I"m pretty sure groupers join groups so the can work together with people in a friendly environment.

 

HAHA! I LOVED MY SMITE CLERIC! Ahhh....good times. Staff friar was pretty fun too, hehe.

It is true. Most solo'ers out there say one thing, and then do the complete opposite when presented with a choice. Easy class that can pwn noobs, or a harder to play class that can still pwn noobs? Most of these people take the easy to play class then later claim it's harder than it looks.

They completely lack any sense of teamwork. So when it comes to PvP it's nearly impossible to try to get these people to do anything. Forget about pug PvE content as wel....pffft.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Vrazule

God forbid that the gaming industry should reflect the diversity of it's consumer base.

 

There's nothing wrong with diversity and for the most part, the gaming industry *IS* reflecting the diversity of it's consumer  base.  The overwhelming majority of players play solo, at least a part of the time.  Many play it almost exclusively.  Therefore, solo play is emphasized.  That doesn't stop anyone out there from playing in a group in pretty much any game you can name.  That's reflecting diversity.  Soloers have never once suggested that we stop people from grouping, it's the groupers who can't get it through their thick little heads that they can't stop soloers from soloing.

It's amazing how many people want  more diversity by eliminating... diversity.

These games are not catering to diversity when one play style gets preferential treatment over another.  They are not putting out niche games, but rather messy integrated conglomerates that end up short changing everyone but raiders.  WoW has the most solo content of any MMO out there, yet they still treat soloers as second rate with the lowest quality of rewards.

When they start recognizing that targeting specific audiences is the best way to go, then I'll consider the genre mature.  The rest of the entertainment industry learned to do this a long time ago and it has proven to be successful.  Why they seem reluctant to create any MMOs that are more mainstream with less nerd appeal is beyond me.

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Vrazule

God forbid that the gaming industry should reflect the diversity of it's consumer base.

 

There's nothing wrong with diversity and for the most part, the gaming industry *IS* reflecting the diversity of it's consumer  base.  The overwhelming majority of players play solo, at least a part of the time.  Many play it almost exclusively.  Therefore, solo play is emphasized.  That doesn't stop anyone out there from playing in a group in pretty much any game you can name.  That's reflecting diversity.  Soloers have never once suggested that we stop people from grouping, it's the groupers who can't get it through their thick little heads that they can't stop soloers from soloing.

It's amazing how many people want  more diversity by eliminating... diversity.

 

These games are not catering to diversity when one play style gets preferential treatment over another.  They are not putting out niche games, but rather messy integrated conglomerates that end up short changing everyone but raiders.  WoW has the most solo content of any MMO out there, yet they still treat soloers as second rate with the lowest quality of rewards.

When they start recognizing that targeting specific audiences is the best way to go, then I'll consider the genre mature.  The rest of the entertainment industry learned to do this a long time ago and it has proven to be successful.  Why they seem reluctant to create any MMOs that are more mainstream with less nerd appeal is beyond me.

So it really is all about the rewards of gear/loot then....What if the best gear you could get, you could get from crafting?

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

LOL exactly my point! Solo'ers don't want to deal with other people and yet somehow people who long strong guild systems are the anti-social ones O.o. I actually have good friends that play the same games I do, we love games that have strong guild systems.I blame solo-friendly content for the increase in the amount of morons running around in games. They get used to just facerolling through everything that they run off and do really, really stupid stuff. And yet somehow more solo-friendly content is supposed to fix that?Again, I ask: How is PvP going to work in a game like that? It won't, it will suck. Proven fact that games with boring and/or broken PvP do not see massive success.The 'Holy Trinity' of class design is outdated though. I don't even really see where it first came from to be honest. I'm sure I could trace it if I wanted to. Bioware is trying to do away with the trinity with TOR, but they have still yet to elaborate as to how exactly that will work. We'll have to wait and see what they do, I have my theories on what is going to happen, but I'm going to reserve them for now.

 

Yep I've also forgot to state that soloer's also claim to play for the challenge, but how many soloer's do you see playing healer classes?  And I dont mean the priest in it's DPS spec,, but for example a battle bard or nature druid in daoc,, an aug healer, or smite cleric? Even in Warhammer I'm pretty sure most soloer's went the DPS or Tank route over the runemaster.

I also blame solo based game partly for the morons and people who just cannot work well or play nice with others. I blame solo friendly games because there is no policing of the community by the players to ostracize assholes in a game or at least force them all to join the same guild so they are contained at the very least with a nice banner promoting their assholishness.

What I find hilarious is the solo players who are saying that people who join their pugs act like total assholes. Is that asshole really part of the grouping crowd or did he just group so he could act like an asshole and amuse himself? I"m pretty sure groupers join groups so the can work together with people in a friendly environment.

 

 

HAHA! I LOVED MY SMITE CLERIC! Ahhh....good times. Staff friar was pretty fun too, hehe.

It is true. Most solo'ers out there say one thing, and then do the complete opposite when presented with a choice. Easy class that can pwn noobs, or a harder to play class that can still pwn noobs? Most of these people take the easy to play class then later claim it's harder than it looks.

They completely lack any sense of teamwork. So when it comes to PvP it's nearly impossible to try to get these people to do anything. Forget about pug PvE content as wel....pffft.

Can you and Greenie please provide proof of this stereotyping?  I've been playing MMOs since 1999 and I've met all walks of gamers.  I've met asshats who solo, group, pvp, craft, raid, roleplay and so forth.  I haven't seen one iota of data or noticed a pattern that indicates one group of players  is more foul or lazy  than the other.

Yeah Greenie but if crafting gave you the best gear, could you do it solo? This is the sort of inane question these solo types ask. It’s not what you do in a MMO, it’s that MMO’s have to be the same as the solo games we all cut our teeth on.

I wonder what would have happened to these guys if Pong had only been a two player game? Would they have never taken part in the computer games revolution of the 1970’s?

<back in the 1970’s a wannabe solo player speaks>

“No Pong’s not for me, you need another person to play it and that’s like, like unfair!”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pong

Games where you don’t just play with yourself can be fun too. :D
 

Originally posted by Vrazule  

Can you and Greenie please provide proof of this stereotyping?  I've been playing MMOs since 1999 and I've met all walks of gamers.  I've met asshats who solo, group, pvp, craft, raid, roleplay and so forth.  I haven't seen one iota of data or noticed a pattern that indicates one group of players  is more foul than the other.

I too have met asshats in all departments. But since WoW I've seen a lot more asshats and that can't be just because of population because Warhammer has more asshats as well, not surprisingly many WoW players, and that populations is almost nonexistent as of now. 

Both games are solo friendly. Since WoW has come out, many games have come out that are more solo friendly then ever.

So it's either that it's just WoW or the trend of solo games that allow anyone and everyone to accomplish almost anything in game regardless of behavior that have helped the trend of more shit talkers and general asshats in game. Don't get me wrong, I also blame the loot whoring that goes on thanksto WoW and Mythic especially with the BoE and BoP.

Is there any way to truly measure how many or what has caused so many asshats in game?  Not really, but I do find it amusing that a recurring theme from soloer's is when they group they run into idiots and asshats, or they don't want to hear us talk with mindless jibberjabber, yet they are just as if not more social in the games.

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by Vrazule  

Can you and Greenie please provide proof of this stereotyping?  I've been playing MMOs since 1999 and I've met all walks of gamers.  I've met asshats who solo, group, pvp, craft, raid, roleplay and so forth.  I haven't seen one iota of data or noticed a pattern that indicates one group of players  is more foul than the other.

 

I too have met asshats in all departments. But since WoW I've seen a lot more asshats and that can't be just because of population because Warhammer has more asshats as well, not surprisingly many WoW players, and that populations is almost nonexistent as of now. 

Both games are solo friendly. Since WoW has come out, many games have come out that are more solo friendly then ever.

So it's either that it's just WoW or the trend of solo games that allow anyone and everyone to accomplish almost anything in game regardless of behavior that have helped the trend of more shit talkers and general asshats in game. Don't get me wrong, I also blame the loot whoring that goes on thanksto WoW and Mythic especially with the BoE and BoP.

Is there any way to truly measure how many or what has caused so many asshats in game?  Not really, but I do find it amusing that a recurring theme from soloer's is when they group they run into idiots and asshats, or they don't want to hear us talk with mindless jibberjabber, yet they are just as if not more social in the games.

That's interesting.  I've played both WoW and WAR and I ran across many jerks and a lot of them were in guild groups and behaving badly or being obnoxious in trade chat.  What makes you so certain it's due to the solo ability of the game?  Especially in WAR, where you can't do any PvP solo.

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by Vrazule  

Can you and Greenie please provide proof of this stereotyping?  I've been playing MMOs since 1999 and I've met all walks of gamers.  I've met asshats who solo, group, pvp, craft, raid, roleplay and so forth.  I haven't seen one iota of data or noticed a pattern that indicates one group of players  is more foul than the other.

 

I too have met asshats in all departments. But since WoW I've seen a lot more asshats and that can't be just because of population because Warhammer has more asshats as well, not surprisingly many WoW players, and that populations is almost nonexistent as of now. 

Both games are solo friendly. Since WoW has come out, many games have come out that are more solo friendly then ever.

So it's either that it's just WoW or the trend of solo games that allow anyone and everyone to accomplish almost anything in game regardless of behavior that have helped the trend of more shit talkers and general asshats in game. Don't get me wrong, I also blame the loot whoring that goes on thanksto WoW and Mythic especially with the BoE and BoP.

Is there any way to truly measure how many or what has caused so many asshats in game?  Not really, but I do find it amusing that a recurring theme from soloer's is when they group they run into idiots and asshats, or they don't want to hear us talk with mindless jibberjabber, yet they are just as if not more social in the games.

That's like asking for proof that the sky is sometimes grey. There is enough information and common knowledge out there that providing proof becomes completely pointless. This is a trend, a growing curve if you will, that you have to actually be aware of that started more or less towards the end of the growth curve of the pre '05 mmo's. Ultima Online, DAOC, EQ to be specific. For UO it was the infamous Trammel, for DAOC it was ToA and I never really played EQ so I have no idea when it started there.

The growth curve of course is referring the the theory of growth that an mmo will experience. It rises to a peak, remains around that peak for a time, then begins to decline. Of course that was the industry attempting to change, but most of the time that change never really went over well. By and large it would cause brief spikes in population, then another game with supposedly new features would come along and largely empty it's predecessor out.

Sure there have always been asshats in games, but there has become a disturbingly increasing number of them as WoW has progressed.

Why is that important? Because as WoW has progressed it has become more and more solo-friendly. There is a direct correlation there. The easier and more solo friendly that games have become, the more self-important jackasses have surfaced.

The only reason I group on the games I play now is to show the other players how much better I am than them at the game. Be it in damage, healing, or tanking I win. If I do not group for that reason it is to help out friends.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by Vrazule  

Can you and Greenie please provide proof of this stereotyping?  I've been playing MMOs since 1999 and I've met all walks of gamers.  I've met asshats who solo, group, pvp, craft, raid, roleplay and so forth.  I haven't seen one iota of data or noticed a pattern that indicates one group of players  is more foul than the other.

 

I too have met asshats in all departments. But since WoW I've seen a lot more asshats and that can't be just because of population because Warhammer has more asshats as well, not surprisingly many WoW players, and that populations is almost nonexistent as of now. 

Both games are solo friendly. Since WoW has come out, many games have come out that are more solo friendly then ever.

So it's either that it's just WoW or the trend of solo games that allow anyone and everyone to accomplish almost anything in game regardless of behavior that have helped the trend of more shit talkers and general asshats in game. Don't get me wrong, I also blame the loot whoring that goes on thanksto WoW and Mythic especially with the BoE and BoP.

Is there any way to truly measure how many or what has caused so many asshats in game?  Not really, but I do find it amusing that a recurring theme from soloer's is when they group they run into idiots and asshats, or they don't want to hear us talk with mindless jibberjabber, yet they are just as if not more social in the games.

 

That's like asking for proof that the sky is sometimes grey. There is enough information and common knowledge out there that providing proof becomes completely pointless. This is a trend, a growing curve if you will, that you have to actually be aware of that started more or less towards the end of the growth curve of the pre '05 mmo's. Ultima Online, DAOC, EQ to be specific. For UO it was the infamous Trammel, for DAOC it was ToA and I never really played EQ so I have no idea when it started there.

The growth curve of course is referring the the theory of growth that an mmo will experience. It rises to a peak, remains around that peak for a time, then begins to decline. Of course that was the industry attempting to change, but most of the time that change never really went over well. By and large it would cause brief spikes in population, then another game with supposedly new features would come along and largely empty it's predecessor out.

Sure there have always been asshats in games, but there has become a disturbingly increasing number of them as WoW has progressed.

Why is that important? Because as WoW has progressed it has become more and more solo-friendly. There is a direct correlation there. The easier and more solo friendly that games have become, the more self-important jackasses have surfaced.

No, there is no direct correlation.  Aside from the fact that WoW drew in a lot of Battle.net players who might have social issues to begin with that have nothing to do with soloing.  Then you have extremely solo friendly CoH and CoV where the majority of the population solo's yet the player base as a whole is rather pleasant.  There are too many variables for anyone to point it at soloers as the cause.

I surrender - you groupers are all correct it is us solo'rs that are theproblem.  Note: I say a similar thing to  Christians on another forum - all the world's problems are caused by non Christians - no Christian ever persecuted any one ever.  Seems groupers and Born again Christians are very alike - both are convinced that their way is the only way and the rest of us are going to Hell.

Originally posted by Vrazule

No, there is no direct correlation.  Aside from the fact that WoW drew in a lot of Battle.net players who might have social issues to begin with that have nothing to do with soloing.  Then you have extremely solo friendly CoH and CoV where the majority of the population solo's yet the player base as a whole is rather pleasant.  There are too many variables for anyone to point it at soloers as the cause.

The population of CoH is also rather small. It is also a game by it's very genre that is going to attract a happier crowd or more social crowd. People love Heros. Hero's want to be known and want to be seen.  Virtue is a roleplaying server,, that is going to attract a more social crowd anyways. It's also the highest populated server with Freedom. There is also a very limited amount of loot whoring in CoX.  Which is another reason I believe asshatness has grown. I blame ToA and WoW for this. Mythic has carried it on with Warhammer as well.

Battlenet was part of diablo was it not? That game was all about gear and SOLO play. Wasn't Starcraft generally a huge solo player game? What battlenet games were huge grouping focused games?

DaoC was wonderful when crafters could make the best gear and you could finish your template out with a few drops that were pretty easy to get. Hell the best necklace in game was a quest you could solo or duo depending on your toon's realm rank.

Loot whoring and solo developed games are the two common denominators.

If they aren't.... then please tell me:  Why are there more asshats in games??   You've consistently stated our opinions are wrong, so please enlighten us to the real issue.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

The easier and more solo friendly that games have become, the more self-important jackasses have surfaced.

Interesting hypothesis. You could just as easily replace 'solo friendly' with 'pvp orientated' of course.

You're never going to please everybody all of the time so sensible developers will do exactly what Blizzard have done, they'll cater to what they see as the largest segment of the community. Don't like it? Tough, it's a hard nosed business world.

Originally posted by elderotter

I surrender - you groupers are all correct it is us solo'rs that are theproblem.  Note: I say a similar thing to  Christians on another forum - all the world's problems are caused by non Christians - no Christian ever persecuted any one ever.  Seems groupers and Born again Christians are very alike - both are convinced that their way is the only way and the rest of us are going to Hell.

See it's this type of overreaction that makes me question a soloer's ability to function socially. I have consistently said that I believe MMO"s that cater to solo play are the problem. THat the lootwhoring systems games are employing such as BoE and BOP are the problem. Only a person who isn't use to social discussion and bantor would have an overreaction such as that.

The difference you don't seem to get is there are games made for your playstyles, made for you to have everything in game that every soloer has asked for or demanded. THey're SRPGS, but rather than play those, you want to change the whole MMORPG genre into solo-all content and get-all-loot.

I want people to be able to solo in games, because there are times I solo, but I also want games to make grouping important and the FOCUS of at least one fricking game.

P.S. -And let's not bring religion into the discussion. I"m a Christian but I know that there isn't any group of people who are completely free of blame for problems in the world or have been part of heinous crimes.