From a new player perspective....

I see 2 forms of content.

1. Skill grinding

2. PVP

everything else in the game, is just a means to get either of those 2 things done.

I really thought I was going to like this kind of game, and I was one of those people who was brought up on UO etc. But. to be honest.. I was also one of those people who thought EQ was a breath of fresh air and a better game overall. I think the reason why UO was so fun in those days, was because this was all new to most people. The motives for playing were more about exploration and seeing and doing things that weren't previously possible on a computer game. We didn't know what it was like to actually have preconstructed "content" to work on. So, we were forced to create our own. This isn't a bad thing, but it just doesn't seem to work this way anymore. Players don't have the drive to do it.

Enter Darkfall, a game who advertises the "Old" style of gameplay. But what you really get is a "BIG" virtual chat room to run around in. PVE content consists of you grinding up skills by travelling to mob camps (there are no mobs just wandering around, they only appear in marked camps. And the "end game" and overall game of DF consists of attacking and killing other players and taking their stuff.

Now, if this was 1997 just being able to do those few things would probably be a thrilling experience. But, nowadays we are spoiled by games that give us "direction" and paths to take. EVE the most popular sandbox game out right now, even gives you some sort of "direction" to go in before sending you off into the world.

While I enjoyed my first 4 days in DF... Killing goblins for every single quest I did got old pretty fast. Having others take my hard earned loot just because of how clunky the interface is, and the that they just stand there waiting for someone to kill something so they can steal its loot, was also quite annoying. The people who were constantly running around me trying to force me to hit them so they could then gank me with no penalty, was annoying. There is no "structure" in DF, and even in a game like UO.. there was structure. DF is literally just a cesspool for griefers.

So, in my personal opinion. These games still need structure and direction. They still need developer designed content to give you a reason to be there and play on a daily basis. There are just not enough of the "creative" types anymore that are willing to actually provide the content themselves. Its just a matter of gank or be ganked. And, this kind of "play" can be fun... but not for a very long span of time. It would really make alot more sense to actually play a first person shooter if thats what your after.

On a closing note, I think there is room for sandbox/themepark hybrid type games. I think those would do better in terms of subs and fun factor than a game thats really just a graphical chat room.

Nowadays lack of content is labeled and sold as sandbox. Enjoy your new game!

Originally posted by Galadourn

Nowadays lack of content is labeled and sold as sandbox. Enjoy your new game!

This is the jist of it.

People think that sandbox = empty world with no structured content. They seem to trust their fellow players enough to think they will take the time to think of inventive ways to play the game that will replace the fact that there is no dev created content.

Even in the old days, "sandboxes" had some kind of content, even if it wasn't dev created like themepark mmo's, there were events, and things that were fun to do in place of themepark style content. Now they just think "Here's a big 3d chat room it took us 10 years to make.. good luck figuring out what you want to do in it".

Second Life with a fantasy skin on it.. IMO.

Before someone else pops in and says it: The content is in your mind. Only in your mind. 

Very good post. And, ultimately, that's why I hate DFO: the only "goal" to play is random PvP or zerg PvP. There's absolutely no greater interaction, pacifist goals, and esprit de corps.

DFO is just a persistent shard of Hexen with better graphics and worse sounds. It's a shame, really, since it could be ever so much more.

Makes one wonder about all the free updates the preorder folks will getting. As they say, more of nothing is still nothing.

You can have "sandbox" without there being nothing.

You can have FFA pvp or good pvp, without it being like DF's.

You can have PVE content, and themepark content in a sandbox MMO..

I'd prefer it that way actually. If the only reason i have to login, is to /macro skill.. then.. why login?

EVE online even has content....

Originally posted by raystantz

... and the that they just stand there waiting for someone to kill something so they can steal its loot, was also quite annoying. The people who were constantly running around me trying to force me to hit them so they could then gank me with no penalty, was annoying. There is no "structure" in DF, and even in a game like UO.. there was structure. DF is literally just a cesspool for griefers.

This is why I ultimately chose to avoid DF.  I like a decent pvp fight as much as the next person, but when the game mechanics permit/encourage this sort of griefing behavior, it discourages me from wanting to play it.

Others enjoy this sort of "fun", glad they have found a game for it, but I'll have to pass.

Very good observations there.  I felt the same way....added to the griefing, bad community, there were a lot of bugs and queue times at launch that really pushed it into the "coaster of the year" category for me.

Just to illuminate those who may be confused:

Darkfall is NOT a "Sandbox". It is instead, a "Clanbox".

The "content" of Darkfall is clans....the politics, the drama, the sieging, the alliances, and the way the battle lines are drawn day by day.

Other than a few select, pure "red" players who only log in to kill n00bs at goblin camps, most solo players are going to have a hard time of it, and most "themepark" players simply won't understand. They think of "content" as quest chains, battlegrounds / arenas, and raid encounters. And you won't find any of that shit in Darkfall.

You're supposed to make your own content that's why it's called a sandbox you noob omfg themepark carebear noob go back to WoW before you get pwnt by hardcore sandbox PvPers who make their own content by joining clans and making war and griefing and all the other stuff we love omfg stupid noob get away from Darkfall.

I'm just waiting for a fanbot to legitamately use that argument.

You just described the Battlefield series...except Battlefield is free to play, has much better graphics, sound, and infinitely better combat.

Everything about the game encourages it.

I understand it being "Brutal"... but, there are better ways to implement it.

Yeppers.  In fact, I'd argue Darkfall is not an MMO and doesn't even belong on this site....it's more of a persistent FPS (and a bad one at that).

I dunno, I guess I just understand the concept of building a world without artificial mechanics or limitations, and dumping in a bunch of players to "live" there.

I have my own problems with DF and especially AV, which is why I don't play anymore, but crying about lack of content is just silly to me.

I mean, someone above me here even tried to claim that DF is no different than a Battlefield game, and I just have to fucking laugh at that. Battlefield doesn't have city building, and a static map that allows it's players to build an empire, with other players as units in a MMO-RTS style game.

People just don't see the "big picture" most of the time with Darkfall....they are too worried about loot and grinding.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Just to illuminate those who may be confused:

Darkfall is NOT a "Sandbox". It is instead, a "Clanbox".

The "content" of Darkfall is clans....the politics, the drama, the sieging, the alliances, and the way the battle lines are drawn day by day.

Other than a few select, pure "red" players who only log in to kill n00bs at goblin camps, most solo players are going to have a hard time of it, and most "themepark" players simply won't understand. They think of "content" as quest chains, battlegrounds / arenas, and raid encounters. And you won't find any of that shit in Darkfall.

 

 

 

I'll agree with your assessment of what DF offers, but you realize Lineage 1/2 offered those same things long ago and threw in a bit of "content" as well.

Originally posted by Comnitus

You're supposed to make your own content that's why it's called a sandbox you noob omfg themepark carebear noob go back to WoW before you get pwnt by hardcore sandbox PvPers who make their own content by joining clans and making war and griefing and all the other stuff we love omfg stupid noob get away from Darkfall.

I'm just waiting for a fanbot to legitamately use that argument.

Since we are using WOW for an example, is it safe to say that the entire game is one big battlegrounds scenario? Im really not clear on just what this game has other than pvp.  I guess im a carebear noob but i like a bit of content when i pay for something.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

I dunno, I guess I just understand the concept of building a world without artificial mechanics or limitations, and dumping in a bunch of players to "live" there.

I have my own problems with DF and especially AV, which is why I don't play anymore, but crying about lack of content is just silly to me.

I mean, someone above me here even tried to claim that DF is no different than a Battlefield game, and I just have to fucking laugh at that. Battlefield doesn't have city building, and a static map that allows it's players to build an empire, with other players as units in a MMO-RTS style game.

People just don't see the "big picture" most of the time with Darkfall....they are too worried about loot and grinding.

No, you missed the point.

EVE online is a great example of a game without much linear dev created content. But there IS structure, and the mechanics of the game allows for it.

Everything in DF is so counterintuitive, they've succeeded in making the grind worse.. since at least in games like WoW and LOTRO.. your doing fun quests, with likeable NPCs and in lively and vividly built landscapes. DF looks like an emo kid took a shit, and decided to keep it as a pet. You folks who say "you people only care about grinding and loot"...

well, at least I get something in return for my grinding. There are plenty of games with city building, and player housing.. this is nothing new. It certainly doesn't make up for the whole game being like it is. The ideas behind darkfall are good, but the 100% sandbox game is obsolete to all but a very small group. Those people are playing darkfall.. :)

I really don't think this game should be catorgorized as a "sandbox" in my opinion.  A true sandbox gives you the tools to do what you want.  When the only tools you are given is to join a guild and PvP, in my opinion, not a sandbox.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Just to illuminate those who may be confused:

Darkfall is NOT a "Sandbox". It is instead, a "Clanbox".

The "content" of Darkfall is clans....the politics, the drama, the sieging, the alliances, and the way the battle lines are drawn day by day.

Other than a few select, pure "red" players who only log in to kill n00bs at goblin camps, most solo players are going to have a hard time of it, and most "themepark" players simply won't understand. They think of "content" as quest chains, battlegrounds / arenas, and raid encounters. And you won't find any of that shit in Darkfall.

 

 

 

 

I'll agree with your assessment of what DF offers, but you realize Lineage 1/2 offered those same things long ago and threw in a bit of "content" as well.

 

This is the point I am trying to make as well. Hardcore Sandbox petitioners believe than any "linear" or structured content is bad. I believe the best games, would have a mixture of both.

Sure, you can have your clans, guild politics, cities to destroy, heck you could have a world thats ever changing based on the actions of the players.

On that same token you can still have fun quests, mini games, arena/battleground pvp, raiding, etc.

Darkfall is the bullies second life.