Originally posted by DubaVampe

Fine, fine. I'm done trying to explain why this is a bad idea to all of you. "Something they would rather not do", what a crock of shit.

You said it yourself; if people are given a choice between soloing/grouping (with no significant benefit either way) and they all choose to solo, then your argument that they secretly all want to group but are what .. just too shy to use a LFG mechanic?

"It's neither easier nor faster to solo, even in a solo-friendly game." Isn't that JUST as subjective as my opinion?

Nope, that's not a subjective opinion. I'll use WoW for simplicity sake:

Priest vs 5 mobs.
Warrior + Priest vs 10 mobs.

Which is the group less likely to die and/or have the lowest downtime at the end of the fight?

 Heres the thing, I have a wife, 2 kids and friends. I don't have all the time in the world to play games like some people.

Hardcore gamers, I mean hardcore, ruin the genre. The ones who play 12 hours a day and juice themselves up so fast that most people are playing catch up.

Games like WoW, I understand working to get the best gear possible. But when a raid, 1 raid takes like 4,5 even 6 hours to complete, wth? Really thats a second job. Now some might come on here saying oh, you can do it in parts. Yea if you have a set schedule. I don't, my friends don't, my friends firends don't, my family don't, my boss don't. Sure I can make arrangements every few weeks or whatever. 

But the reason "solo friendly" casual games are being released is because thats the bigger cash cow. There is by far, I mean by far more demand for relaxed games opposed to hardcore games. Thats where the genre is going.

Over time everything changes, nothing stays the same, evolution anyone? The genre is fine, you don't like the way its goin make your own damn game. Make  a game without the purpose of trying to make the most money possible, cause that makes so much sense.

Anyone complaining about casual games needs to shake there head. Lets cater to the minority in a billion dollar industry,  yea cause thats smart. 

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by DubaVampe

Fine, fine. I'm done trying to explain why this is a bad idea to all of you. "Something they would rather not do", what a crock of shit.

You said it yourself; if people are given a choice between soloing/grouping (with no significant benefit either way) and they all choose to solo, then your argument that they secretly all want to group but are what .. just too shy to use a LFG mechanic?

No, but nice job sticking words in my mouth. My argument was that if solo and group play offered the same rewards, then it would just be faster to do it solo. Why bother grouping if it takes more time and offers the same rewards?

"It's neither easier nor faster to solo, even in a solo-friendly game." Isn't that JUST as subjective as my opinion?

Nope, that's not a subjective opinion. I'll use WoW for simplicity sake:

Priest vs 5 mobs.
Warrior + Priest vs 10 mobs.

Which is the group less likely to die and/or have the lowest downtime at the end of the fight?

Two can play at that. Which is faster? A warrior and priest questing together, or seperately?

I'll give you a big hint towards that riddle, it's the latter. You may, overall, get more exp more the first one in the long run, but then you have to depend on somebody else. You have to coordinate playtime and socialize. God forbid. In terms of WoW, solo is already more efficient for 79 levels, and even more the starting part of 80 (getting your greenz).

 

So my question is: What do you really want? I don't think you want solo play, I think you just want to get rid of group play. Which is sad, really. Ruin what a lot of people find fun just for your sake. I know you'll turn that around on me, but hey. How about you just go play with yourself and be happy whilst leaving the rest of us alone?

 

/thread I've got a raid to do. 8D

Originally posted by Gregtheexcon

 Heres the thing, I have a wife, 2 kids and friends. I don't have all the time in the world to play games like some people.

Hardcore gamers, I mean hardcore, ruin the genre. The ones who play 12 hours a day and juice themselves up so fast that most people are playing catch up.

Games like WoW, I understand working to get the best gear possible. But when a raid, 1 raid takes like 4,5 even 6 hours to complete, wth? Really thats a second job. Now some might come on here saying oh, you can do it in parts. Yea if you have a set schedule. I don't, my friends don't, my friends firends don't, my family don't, my boss don't. Sure I can make arrangements every few weeks or whatever. 

But the reason "solo friendly" casual games are being released is because thats the bigger cash cow. There is by far, I mean by far more demand for relaxed games opposed to hardcore games. Thats where the genre is going.

Over time everything changes, nothing stays the same, evolution anyone? The genre is fine, you don't like the way its goin make your own damn game. Make  a game without the purpose of trying to make the most money possible, cause that makes so much sense.

Anyone complaining about casual games needs to shake there head. Lets cater to the minority in a billion dollar industry,  yea cause thats smart. 

You know what? Forget it. These forums are useless. I'ma go play some BF1943 now, and ya'll can keep praying that they release a game that is even MORE solo oriented than the ones that are out now. The one way that's really possible, though, is if they make it so you can get the best gear in the game by 5 minute quests. "Because that makes so much sense."

Originally posted by Gregtheexcon

 Heres the thing, I have a wife, 2 kids and friends. I don't have all the time in the world to play games like some people.

Hardcore gamers, I mean hardcore, ruin the genre. The ones who play 12 hours a day and juice themselves up so fast that most people are playing catch up.

Games like WoW, I understand working to get the best gear possible. But when a raid, 1 raid takes like 4,5 even 6 hours to complete, wth? Really thats a second job. Now some might come on here saying oh, you can do it in parts. Yea if you have a set schedule. I don't, my friends don't, my friends firends don't, my family don't, my boss don't. Sure I can make arrangements every few weeks or whatever. 

But the reason "solo friendly" casual games are being released is because thats the bigger cash cow. There is by far, I mean by far more demand for relaxed games opposed to hardcore games. Thats where the genre is going.

Over time everything changes, nothing stays the same, evolution anyone? The genre is fine, you don't like the way its goin make your own damn game. Make  a game without the purpose of trying to make the most money possible, cause that makes so much sense.

Anyone complaining about casual games needs to shake there head. Lets cater to the minority in a billion dollar industry,  yea cause thats smart. 

Hooray for common sense!!!

Here, have a cookie.

Originally posted by DubaVampe

No, but nice job sticking words in my mouth. My argument was that if solo and group play offered the same rewards, then it would just be faster to do it solo. Why bother grouping if it takes more time and offers the same rewards?

Because it doesn't, as has already been explained (a couple of times).

Two can play at that. Which is faster? A warrior and priest questing together, or seperately?

Let's see.. a quest to kill 10 x Woodpaw Gnolls and a group mechanic where all group members get credit for each kill. Well, that's a no-brainer .. the group wins again because they will complete the quest faster. Arranging a time is difficult? I don't think so.

So my question is: What do you really want?

I want scaling content so that I can choose whether I solo/group rather than have that choice forced upon me by a tiny minority of the playerbase who are pampered by the content developers.

Most solo players are pretty cool. They do their own thing. They may not have alot of time to find groups. They might like the challenge of not depending on other players to accomplish their goals. And then there are some of you in here that seem to use soloing as a form of griefing: giving a big "fuck you" to those who have helped build the foundation of what multiplayer RPGs are today. Whatever. I don't expect to change anyone's view. There are enough players commenting on here who feel the same way as me, so I will just keep my hopes up that I can find those players in the games I play.

Originally posted by DubaVampe

 

If you make solo content as effective and rewarding as group-based content, nobody will group up.

 

Meaning, you will be taking a major social aspect out of MMORPGs. Nobody will be working together anymore, it'll just be a bunch of people working against/apart from eachother to meet their own needs. Now, I'm not saying that doesn't happen in raids now, where people do them only for their own gear; but honestly.

 

Now that is so ILLOGICAL.

If people like grouping more than solo, then they will CHOOSE group-based content over solo-content if the reward is the same. So providing solo content (once again, same reward level) won't discourage grouping.

If people like soloing more than grouping, then there is no point forcing them to group.

Either way, solo content should be provided.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Instead of clicking tank, tank, tank, you're clicking tank, attack, special attack, tank, attack, special attack, rinse repeat. If your abilities compensate for the vulnerabilities of your class, then they aren't vullnerabilities are they?

You asked for an example of how solo play is more complex than group play and clearly "tank, attack, special attack, tank, attack, special attack" is more complex than "tank, tank, tank" and the point is that you have to consciously compensate for your own vulnerabilities when soloing. It adds complexity.

You're saying it's so much more engaging and immersive playing solo because you get to click some different buttons?

I'm saying that it's more complex. Whether it's more immersive or engaging is dependant on the preferences of the player and is too subjective to be debated without bias.

IN group play, if you don't pay attention, you get the party wiped. That's fun, playing solo in an MMORPG is like watching grass grow, and requires just as much effort, IMO. It's ridiculously easy. A 5 year old can do it, literally. But get a 5 year old to play in a group when you pull the absolute toughest mob the group can handle. Not so easy then.

Likewise, the 5 year old couldn't handle the toughest soloable mob in the game. Again, you're stating your opinions on what is and isn't fun. People have different views, different preferences and different opinions on what is and isn't fun.

 

 

I think this is the definitive difference between the solo player and myself.

You think tank, attack, special attack, is "complex". I think it's just as mind numbingly simple as tank, tank, tank.

I push button. I push  three buttons in order with different names.

Neither one is complex, challenging, or engaging.

I think a 5 year old COULD handle the toughest solable mob in the game. I can teach a 5 year old to push tank, attack, special attack, in 5 minutes.

I can't teach a 5 year oold to watch for ads, switch tanks with aggro, don't draw an ad, don't draw aggro if you're the DPS, switch heals from main tank to secondary, manage crowd control, etc., etc., in 5 minutes.

So when I play a solo MMO, I"m bored to tears. The quests are retarded, and the game play is retarded. The only thing that makes it fun for me is working in a team.

And yes, groups encourage good community, solo does not, and Raids do not.

Why is that?

Because solo there are no consequences. You're an asshole! So what? I don't need you for anything.

Group games are different. You're an asshole! Ok, try finding a group with that attitude, and without one you're screwed.

Raids. You're an asshole! Yes, I'm an asshole, but I run the Guild, and without me you can't get uber loot!

With a group, no one runs anything. Anyone is free to start a group, it only takes two players, not 40 people with all the right gear to meet on Sunday at 7 pm. etc., etc. You don't have power to boss anyone around when grouping as opposed to raiding, because anyone can find one other person in a good group game and start another group.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by DubaVampe

 

If you make solo content as effective and rewarding as group-based content, nobody will group up.

 

Meaning, you will be taking a major social aspect out of MMORPGs. Nobody will be working together anymore, it'll just be a bunch of people working against/apart from eachother to meet their own needs. Now, I'm not saying that doesn't happen in raids now, where people do them only for their own gear; but honestly.

 

 

Now that is so ILLOGICAL.

If people like grouping more than solo, then they will CHOOSE group-based content over solo-content if the reward is the same. So providing solo content (once again, same reward level) won't discourage grouping.

If people like soloing more than grouping, then there is no point forcing them to group.

Either way, solo content should be provided.

Saying that nobody would group is indeed wrong, but the core of the argument holds true. Games often need to steer people towards content and to socialize. If there are no incentives to group, most people won't. Even worse, like in WoW, it is actually less effective do quests with a friend than it is to solo. So you end up soloing. That is just bad game design. 

There is nothing wrong rewarding group more more because it improves the social aspect of MMO. Solo content can still be there just less effective.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by DubaVampe

 

If you make solo content as effective and rewarding as group-based content, nobody will group up.

 

Meaning, you will be taking a major social aspect out of MMORPGs. Nobody will be working together anymore, it'll just be a bunch of people working against/apart from eachother to meet their own needs. Now, I'm not saying that doesn't happen in raids now, where people do them only for their own gear; but honestly.

 

 

Now that is so ILLOGICAL.

If people like grouping more than solo, then they will CHOOSE group-based content over solo-content if the reward is the same. So providing solo content (once again, same reward level) won't discourage grouping.

If people like soloing more than grouping, then there is no point forcing them to group.

Either way, solo content should be provided.

People like candy. Let's make candy that tastes like shit. It will still be candy, and if people really like candy, they will eat it! If they don't eat it, it means they don't really like candy!

WHY? Why do people like to group?

That's the missing logic in your statement above.

People like candy because it tastes good, not because it's called candy.

People like grouping because.......

Fill in that blank and you'll be closer to getting the whole picture.

Hint: the answer is not because they are in a group, as in, ok, i let you people click on each other, and now you have a group chat so you are a group. you can call it a group, so taht's all you want right?

Uh, no, not even close.

All you've done is say, Groupers suck, they shouldn't mind if we destroy thier content int eh game, becasue we like to solo.

Originally posted by thexrated

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by DubaVampe

 

If you make solo content as effective and rewarding as group-based content, nobody will group up.

 

Meaning, you will be taking a major social aspect out of MMORPGs. Nobody will be working together anymore, it'll just be a bunch of people working against/apart from eachother to meet their own needs. Now, I'm not saying that doesn't happen in raids now, where people do them only for their own gear; but honestly.

 

 

Now that is so ILLOGICAL.

If people like grouping more than solo, then they will CHOOSE group-based content over solo-content if the reward is the same. So providing solo content (once again, same reward level) won't discourage grouping.

If people like soloing more than grouping, then there is no point forcing them to group.

Either way, solo content should be provided.

 

Saying that nobody would group is indeed wrong, but the core of the argument holds true. Games often need to steer people towards content and to socialize. If there are no incentives to group, most people won't. Even worse, like in WoW, it is actually less effective do quests with a friend than it is to solo. So you end up soloing. That is just bad game design. 

There is nothing wrong rewarding group more more because it improves the social aspect of MMO. Solo content can still be there just less effective.

One of the way, imo, to reward grouping, is to make it less time constraint.

Example. In WoW, you can gain exalted with Wymest by doing dailies without grouping. But the process will be much longer compare with players that group for dungeons. Players that wear the tabard will gain more rep doing instances compare with solo.

So provide the same outcome for both groups, ie gain exalted with the fraction and thus same rewards, but 1 will be faster the other slower. And let the player choose ...

I think this is what is lacking in the current end-game contents...

Originally posted by DubaVampe

Originally posted by Gregtheexcon

 Heres the thing, I have a wife, 2 kids and friends. I don't have all the time in the world to play games like some people.

Hardcore gamers, I mean hardcore, ruin the genre. The ones who play 12 hours a day and juice themselves up so fast that most people are playing catch up.

Games like WoW, I understand working to get the best gear possible. But when a raid, 1 raid takes like 4,5 even 6 hours to complete, wth? Really thats a second job. Now some might come on here saying oh, you can do it in parts. Yea if you have a set schedule. I don't, my friends don't, my friends firends don't, my family don't, my boss don't. Sure I can make arrangements every few weeks or whatever. 

But the reason "solo friendly" casual games are being released is because thats the bigger cash cow. There is by far, I mean by far more demand for relaxed games opposed to hardcore games. Thats where the genre is going.

Over time everything changes, nothing stays the same, evolution anyone? The genre is fine, you don't like the way its goin make your own damn game. Make  a game without the purpose of trying to make the most money possible, cause that makes so much sense.

Anyone complaining about casual games needs to shake there head. Lets cater to the minority in a billion dollar industry,  yea cause thats smart. 

 

You know what? Forget it. These forums are useless. I'ma go play some BF1943 now, and ya'll can keep praying that they release a game that is even MORE solo oriented than the ones that are out now. The one way that's really possible, though, is if they make it so you can get the best gear in the game by 5 minute quests. "Because that makes so much sense."

Well, seeing how it would be trash getting that great gear in 5 mins, but the fact of running an instance for 6 hours for a 10 pct drop rate is retarded. If you have no life and can do this over and over and over again, grats.

I however have a life outside gaming which the mass, and I mean mass majority have, cannot do that. Now, WoW had a great idea with badges. Thats Ideal for Really good gear, honor grind is the same, you can log into WoW for 30 mins run an instance grab 4 marks, sweet. Good show.

In WoW you can log in for half an hour grab 5-6k honor sweet, road to some gear. That is casual, thats the way gamers want it. You may say no, others may say no. But the mass speaks volumes. And your play style isn't it.

I understand that someone who plays longer has better gear, every mmo has that feature right now, If guy A plays 1 hour a day, he will have many more weeks of play to get the gear someone who plays 4 hours a day. Where its getting casual is they are dropping the exp rate, dropping the length of instances of there is any so that the guy playing 1 hour a day can obtain high end gear within a few months. 

I like grouping I really do, I like instances. I hate sitting for -6 hours at a time to play again, many agree with me. Casual friendly only equals not sitting for 4-6 hours at a time, thats it.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

People like candy. Let's make candy that tastes like shit. It will still be candy, and if people really like candy, they will eat it! If they don't eat it, it means they don't really like candy!

WHY? Why do people like to group?

That's the missing logic in your statement above.

People like candy because it tastes good, not because it's called candy.

People like grouping because......

Fill in that blank and you'll be closer to getting the whole picture.

Hint: the answer is not because they are in a group, as in, ok, i let you people click on each other, and now you have a group chat so you are a group. you can call it a group, so taht's all you want right?

Uh, no, not even close.

All you've done is say, Groupers suck, they shouldn't mind if we destroy thier content int eh game, becasue we like to solo.

You really should stay away from the metaphors.

Adding solo content does not destroy group content, that's just silly.

the problem I have with grouping is having to rely on others for my success.

If its up to me alone, I will succeed. Im good at mmo's. I dont screw up. I dont fail.

From my experience most others playing MMO's arent so good. In Wow I would say prolly 80% of the players are just terrible. And I resent having to fail to complete a dungeon because the others arent as skilled as I am.

This might come off as "elitist" but I just dont have patience for bad players. So I usually cancel accounts when I get to a point like in WoW where the endgame makes me rely on others to succeed.

A few MMO's Ive played I didnt mind grouping. LOTR comes to mind, mainly because the cinematics were awesome and the players tend to be better skilled. I rarely failed to finish a dungeon group quest with a pug in LOTR.

So I guess it depends on the community. Bad players like wow, no thanks Im never gonna want to group if I can avoid it

Originally posted by Gregtheexcon

 Heres the thing, I have a wife, 2 kids and friends. I don't have all the time in the world to play games like some people.

Hardcore gamers, I mean hardcore, ruin the genre. The ones who play 12 hours a day and juice themselves up so fast that most people are playing catch up.

Games like WoW, I understand working to get the best gear possible. But when a raid, 1 raid takes like 4,5 even 6 hours to complete, wth? Really thats a second job. Now some might come on here saying oh, you can do it in parts. Yea if you have a set schedule. I don't, my friends don't, my friends firends don't, my family don't, my boss don't. Sure I can make arrangements every few weeks or whatever. 

But the reason "solo friendly" casual games are being released is because thats the bigger cash cow. There is by far, I mean by far more demand for relaxed games opposed to hardcore games. Thats where the genre is going.

Over time everything changes, nothing stays the same, evolution anyone? The genre is fine, you don't like the way its goin make your own damn game. Make  a game without the purpose of trying to make the most money possible, cause that makes so much sense.

Anyone complaining about casual games needs to shake there head. Lets cater to the minority in a billion dollar industry,  yea cause thats smart. 

What are all these solo friendly mmogs that make so much money?

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Adding solo content does not destroy group content, that's just silly.

woah what are you on? Pass me some of it.

Ok if item A has comparable stats to item B, and Item A you have to raid a boss with an 18 man group while item B you can solo. wth will happen? It doesnt take Einstein to figure out that people wont group for item A when they can solo Item B. Thats what you solo'ers want right comparable gear to raided gear right (this is one of the biggest arguments i see from solo'ers)? Well that will DESTROY group content.

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Adding solo content does not destroy group content, that's just silly.

 

woah what are you on? Pass me some of it.

Ok if item A has comparable stats to item B, and Item A you have to raid a boss with an 18 man group while item B you can solo. wth will happen? It doesnt take Einstein to figure out that people wont group for item A when they can solo Item B. Thats what you solo'ers want right comparable gear to raided gear right (this is one of the biggest arguments i see from solo'ers)? Well that will DESTROY group content.

I like solo play and comparable gear is not something I care about.  what I care about is not being forced to group with anyone who wants their preferred style of game play to be the ONLY allowed style of game play.  I like balanced games, give both sides what they want.  From what I have read most solo-style players agree. It is the group-style players who want everyone else to march to their drum beat.

Originally posted by elderotter

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Adding solo content does not destroy group content, that's just silly.

 

woah what are you on? Pass me some of it.

Ok if item A has comparable stats to item B, and Item A you have to raid a boss with an 18 man group while item B you can solo. wth will happen? It doesnt take Einstein to figure out that people wont group for item A when they can solo Item B. Thats what you solo'ers want right comparable gear to raided gear right (this is one of the biggest arguments i see from solo'ers)? Well that will DESTROY group content.

I like solo play and comparable gear is not something I care about.  what I care about is not being forced to group with anyone who wants their preferred style of game play to be the ONLY allowed style of game play.  I like balanced games, give both sides what they want.  From what I have read most solo-style players agree. It is the group-style players who want everyone else to march to their drum beat.

The raiders will do it if they like raiding.  The argument assumes that solo play is more fun. If you truly believe raiding is not fun, why support it?

The whole point of the game is to have fun and enjoy the content you like most.  If you like raiding, you will raid for the item.  If you like solo, you will solo for an equivalent item, if you like group content you will do the group content.

Originally posted by elderotter

I like solo play and comparable gear is not something I care about.  what I care about is not being forced to group with anyone who wants their preferred style of game play to be the ONLY allowed style of game play.  I like balanced games, give both sides what they want.  From what I have read most solo-style players agree. It is the group-style players who want everyone else to march to their drum beat.

Dont be ignorant theres no excuse for that.

There are soloers out their pushing their style of play on groupers, and vice versa like you pointed out. Thinking its one sided is plain flat ignorance