Tries to think of a brilliant analogy...

Problem I have is this...

Cosmetic stuff is a normal part of games. They subtract that from the

normal part and then charge you for it.

Check out Crimecraft. Basic character creation has like 6 faces and 5 hair styles.

You can buy about 20 different faces...

So you can be Captain Anonymous...or actually have a character.

Originally posted by apocalance

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by apocalance

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by unbound55

Originally posted by green13

For me and many others, this crosses a line.

And it raises questions about the decision makers for this game. The people who really want MTs don't want subscriptions. Many who prefer subscriptions would rather chew their own foot off than play a game with MTs.

This model will have limited appeal.

...and the many similar posts that followed.

I think the majority of the negative posters are caught up in the name and haven't thought through the reality of MMO games.  The most popular game (World of Warcraft) is chock full of MT.  Blizzard doesn't call it by that name, and Blizzard isn't the direct recipient of all the MT, but they are functionally there.

You can change servers, change names, change looks, and change factions (or soon to be) all by direct payment to Blizzard.

 

Nonsense.

Microtransactions have a very specific meaning in the context of mmos, and that is the purchase of virtual items with real-world money - and these usually exist in free-to-play mmos as the primary means of financing the game.

Server changes and name changes are account service fees. They have no impact on the gameworld.

WOW has, from what players tell me now, microtransactions for hairstyles. That's it. That's not "chock full". It's a small aesthetic MT. It's very greedy on Blizzard's part, given their phenomenal success and it also strikes me as an odd MT given most sets of armour come with helmets that hide your hairstyle...

Your understanding of RMT is a very granular portion of what the industry believes it to be. I would say you're limiting it to an item mall more than anything.

http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/11/24/are-microtransactions-actually-the-future/

 

 

....... in this case the Micro Transactions will be an item mall...  this is merging 2 payment models in one..... buying account changes and server transfers aren't considered payment models...  This is a true blue MT model that you have to pay a subscription to gain access to. There is a difference..... its silly some people can't see that.  If nothing else you can see the difference between this payment structure and other MMOs.  

 

I have no idea if you're trying to make a point or if you're just trying to be right about something. You can't argue that in this case microtransactions are one limited set, but sometimes they're something else. Had you actually read the link I posted, RMT's cover ANY real money transactions for moving bits of data. Bits of data isn't limited to a character's items, name, or server location, but it certainly does cover those three things. You're using real money to manage, add, remove, or otherwise change, data.

"buying account changes and server transfers aren't considered payment models.." is incorrect. Anything a company does to get money from you is part of their money-making plan.

I personally don't care for item malls as part of a subscription based MMO, but I'm not going to succumb to some irrational idea that I can alter the idea or definition of a term because I'm want to divest its meaning.

I'm just trying to make sure people can see the difference between actual models of payments.  For instance, would a subscription be considered a MT then? No? because you pay for game time and not actually moving bits of data?  What about dungeon runners? Would it then be considered a MT?  Technically then, expansions would be MTs.... as theres no set cost on what "micro" could be.  In that case all games would pretty much have MTs.  Expansions are, afterall, a collective purchase of moving bits of data.

Oh sure, I guess you're right, there is that new line of MMOs coming out thats F2P with Server Transfers model...  I like that one...

Gaining additional revenue through server transfers and account adjustments would be the same as selling promotional items and memorabilia.  They don't effect gameplay, and they have less of a bearing of actual money used for development as the game isn't gearing that as a continuing revenue stream.

Account management services are in no way comparable to in-game items, no matter how much they affect "gameplay".  What kind of arguement is that anyway?  All content, even the purely aesthetic, constitutes your entire gaming experience, which is not limited to your narrow definition of gameplay (mechanics and balance).

Originally posted by Darkholme

Originally posted by green13

3) If a microtransaction does have any sort of in game effect, then it can be also be earned in game.

That right there is key, and if micro-transactions are included in an MMOG this is how it should be done... Still, not terribly thrilled with it, but it's better than it could have been, and it's certainly not a deal-breaker IMO.

 

This, for me, depends entirely on one thing: how is it earned in game?  If it's going to be a boring, month long grind to get an item versus swiping my visa card to get it, I'm not touching this game.

If it's a reward for an enjoyable story-arc then maybe that would be okay, provided that story-arc isn't nearly impossible to complete.

You see, allowing people to get something "in-game" can be just window dressing.  It can still become a manipulative cash-grab if the "in-game" option is arduous, overly-lengthy, boring, or set at too high a difficulty level.

Tbh, I wish they'd just keep any RMT to things that do not affect a character's performance.  Then it's really hard to turn it into a manipulative cash grab, and really I think that's for the best.

I must say, I'm having second thoughts about this game in light of this one part of the business model.  Pity, I was quite excited about it.  Now it's more like "meh."

I was just about to post something about how exciting the PvP looks too, but...meh.  Performance-enhancing RMT items really bork good pvp.  There's simply too much pull to have the latest uber-gear available at the online store for a competitive advantage. 

No, the more I think about it, the less I like it.  I think including performance enhancing RMT is a bad business decision.  I was going to rush out and get a copy of this at release.  Now, I'm not.  I guess it's really that simple.

.... except they're not putting any game changing gear on the cash shop its all costmetic.  I'm betting if there are items you can gain in game it probably comes from crafting it'd be pointless to put a bunch of people through quests to get an item they just spent a couple of dollars on.

I thank way to many of you are reading way too deeply into it.  If the game comes out and the cash shop is overwhelmling suck then dont' buy the game and don't sub there are going to be people who like it so its really pointless to cry. 

I mean hell many of you play WoW and they give out cosmetic items all the time for Cash and I dont see any of you crying over that.  Hell people spend tons of dollars trying to get a cosmetic mount or pet and no one is crying.  OH god forbid a company skips the crap shoot in the barrel method for a shiny statless backpack its just horrible!  But wow can make you crap shoot for a pet and its just fine.

Originally posted by banthis

.... except they're not putting any game changing gear on the cash shop its all costmetic.  I'm betting if there are items you can gain in game it probably comes from crafting it'd be pointless to put a bunch of people through quests to get an item they just spent a couple of dollars on.

I thank way to many of you are reading way too deeply into it.  If the game comes out and the cash shop is overwhelmling suck then dont' buy the game and don't sub there are going to be people who like it so its really pointless to cry. 

I mean hell many of you play WoW and they give out cosmetic items all the time for Cash and I dont see any of you crying over that.  Hell people spend tons of dollars trying to get a cosmetic mount or pet and no one is crying.  OH god forbid a company skips the crap shoot in the barrel method for a shiny statless backpack its just horrible!  But wow can make you crap shoot for a pet and its just fine.

Its not all cosmetic.. they said they would have stats on some items. Where did you get YOUR information?

I was looking for more info and found this.  www.tentonhammer.com/node/71536/page/2  I'm thinking things might not be as bad as I was thinking.  I'm still gonna wait till the game is out and we know what is on the item mall.  If I'm reading this right it means there will be no armor, damage dealing items, or xp modifiers in the item mall. 

Ten Ton Hammer: So more along the lines of gameplay ‘enhancers’ rather than ‘replacers’.

Bill Roper: I even hesitate to use the term ‘gameplay’ because I think when you use that word people immediately equate that to damage dealt or armor and experience point gain or that kind of stuff, and there’s nothing on my list that’s like that. I think those are valid things to be part of a micro-transaction game, but one that is solely a micro-transaction game. If you’re looking at a game that’s free to download and free to play and its business model is supported by micro-transactions, that’s really where their bread-n-butter is made because it’s more like, yes, you can play the game and be successful but if you really want to kick up the experience gain and do things better or faster you can pick up those kinds of items.

But that’s not Champions Online. That’s not the way the game is structured, that’s not the emphasis for the game and that’s not the desire for us with micro-transactions.
 

Originally posted by Kremlik

The key factor with the RMT negitivity is the assumption that any company using RMT would force the player to use it or not enjoy the game to it's full level, like many many f2p games, HOWEVER unlike the f2p mmo the RMT isn't a p2p game's only source of income so it's not really required to activitly make profit..

As long as RMT remains completely optional then I'll happy continue to sub to any game with it in

You're not thinking like a company. This makes zero business sense to invest time and effort into a business model that does not produce maximum returns. The MT store is not for our convienence, it is a way to make money. To think Cryptic is adding this to combat "gold farmers" and help the casual player is laughable at best. They are preying on ignorance.

Originally posted by apocalance

Most of you are delusional. MMO producing companies will do what they feel will allow them to survive and hopefully thrive. If Cryptic thinks they can survive by offering microtransactions to their customers, then let them do it. If they balance it right, it could be beneficial. If they slant too much towards the MT's and their subscribers feel like they're having to pay more monthly than the game is worth, they'll exercise their consumer rights to stop paying.

I'm not sure why some of you feel like Cryptic is being greedy or w/e. If they're charging more for a product than it's worth TO YOU, then DON'T BUY IT. There are certainly other forms of entertainment that you could be pumping your money into. If you don't like how Cryptic does it, go somewhere else. All this blathering in this forum about their decision is ridiculous. Most of you sound like a bunch of whiny, self-entitled, brats, who aren't getting their due.

Be a consumer. Make a decision. Move along. Don't stand on your soapbox all hours of the day and scream about how unfair it is that some "greedy" company is charging what they want for their product. Or do, because this is the Internet and really, you can be so special here and fit right in.

As consumers we can also debate the issue. You're, "shut up they can do what they want," isn't bringing much to the table. Oh, and if it was such a non-issue we wouldn't have a few threads about it this long. The one at Cryptic is huge now, do you think it's because no one cares?

Originally posted by banthis

.... except they're not putting any game changing gear on the cash shop its all costmetic.  I'm betting if there are items you can gain in game it probably comes from crafting it'd be pointless to put a bunch of people through quests to get an item they just spent a couple of dollars on.

I thank way to many of you are reading way too deeply into it.  If the game comes out and the cash shop is overwhelmling suck then dont' buy the game and don't sub there are going to be people who like it so its really pointless to cry. 

I mean hell many of you play WoW and they give out cosmetic items all the time for Cash and I dont see any of you crying over that.  Hell people spend tons of dollars trying to get a cosmetic mount or pet and no one is crying.  OH god forbid a company skips the crap shoot in the barrel method for a shiny statless backpack its just horrible!  But wow can make you crap shoot for a pet and its just fine.

It's not what's in the MT store that matters the most it's the idea of it. I think you're missing the gist.

Originally posted by Irishoak

You're not thinking like a company. This makes zero business sense to invest time and effort into a business model that does not produce maximum returns. The MT store is not for our convienence, it is a way to make money. To think Cryptic is adding this to combat "gold farmers" and help the casual player is laughable at best. They are preying on ignorance.

I guess you could say that any and all companies that operate for a profit are preying on ignorance then. Paying a subscription isn't for our convenience, its a way to make money. Charging for the game box isn't for our convenience, its a way to make money.

Do you think the cable companies charge extra for HBO because it makes it more convenient for their customers? No, they do it to cover the added cost of premium TV shows. Its no different in CO. If we want content above and beyond what would be available from subscription revenue only, then guess what? We are gonna have to pay extra for it.

You'd think that Cryptic just broke the news to the world that Santa Claus isn't real and that companies operate with the intention of making money. Now unless you're privy to well guarded info about what their profit margins are, then whether Cryptic uses MTs, expansions, card games, subscriptions, or robs old ladies is kind of a moot point. What matters is how much of that income is reinvested into the product. The types and sources of their income have little to no effect on that.

Seriously... jesus guys, suck it up.  How many of you actually have experience with MTs, and how many of you are just crying doom and gloom based on whatever your imagination is making up here?  What exactly is it that you've all got against MTs?  They've already covered that nothing game-changing will be MT-only.  So what if there are subscriptions and MTs?  They're entitled to make money in whatever manner they damn well please.  No unfair benefit is being gained here.  If you're so bent out of shape that Player X has Ability Y before Player Z, then invest either the time or the money to even the playing field.  It's that simple.

Say what you like, but MTs are a very effective source of income, and the more incom the game generates, the more funds the devs have to further invest in the title.  Poor MMOs are not healthy MMOs.  MTs work, they work because the players take advantage of it.  If they didn't, they wouldn't implement them.  Say what you want, but MTs are there to facilitate the players.  They're there because some of us (myself included) want an alternative way to earn items in game.  I don't want an unfair advantage, but sometimes I just don't want to invest 12 hours into grinding if I can spend $2 to achieve the same thing.  Ya know what?  That's my choice.

As long as MT items don't give an unfair advantage (aquiring something faster is not an unfair advantage.  Suck it up.), then I don't think there's anything worth complaining about.

What's more, MTs are becoming a widely accepted source of revenue.  Those of you that have an issue with this are going to have to learn to accept it.  It's not the end of the world, it's not the fall of MMOs, it's change, and all things change.  You can fight it and be left behind, or accept it and adapt.  The choice is yours.

In two weeks I'll be enjoying CO.  Where will you be?

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Irishoak

You're not thinking like a company. This makes zero business sense to invest time and effort into a business model that does not produce maximum returns. The MT store is not for our convienence, it is a way to make money. To think Cryptic is adding this to combat "gold farmers" and help the casual player is laughable at best. They are preying on ignorance.

 

I guess you could say that any and all companies that operate for a profit are preying on ignorance then. Paying a subscription isn't for our convenience, its a way to make money. Charging for the game box isn't for our convenience, its a way to make money.

Do you think the cable companies charge extra for HBO because it makes it more convenient for their customers? No, they do it to cover the added cost of premium TV shows. Its no different in CO. If we want content above and beyond what would be available from subscription revenue only, then guess what? We are gonna have to pay extra for it.

You'd think that Cryptic just broke the news to the world that Santa Claus isn't real and that companies operate with the intention of making money. Now unless you're privy to well guarded info about what their profit margins are, then whether Cryptic uses MTs, expansions, card games, subscriptions, or robs old ladies is kind of a moot point. What matters is how much of that income is reinvested into the product. The types and sources of their income have little to no effect on that.

I respectfully disagree... if they're stealing money from old ladies to reinvest in the game.. I don't think that would go over very well.. and I know that would probably kill the old lady population of CO.

For the most part you're right though, lots of companies screw people over... we should all just accept that and move on.

anyone here from the first Archlord beta, codemasters was actually going to use ... subscription plus item shop... heh lasted one phase that idea...  i think i still have the email on my old hotmail account with codemasters informing us of the change (back then, they disregarded the item shop then were going to go with just subscription) and we all know how that turned out  ;)

Originally posted by AldosAC

Seriously... jesus guys, suck it up.  How many of you actually have experience with MTs, and how many of you are just crying doom and gloom based on whatever your imagination is making up here?  What exactly is it that you've all got against MTs?  They've already covered that nothing game-changing will be MT-only.  So what if there are subscriptions and MTs?  They're entitled to make money in whatever manner they damn well please.  No unfair benefit is being gained here.  If you're so bent out of shape that Player X has Ability Y before Player Z, then invest either the time or the money to even the playing field.  It's that simple.

Say what you like, but MTs are a very effective source of income, and the more incom the game generates, the more funds the devs have to further invest in the title.  Poor MMOs are not healthy MMOs.  MTs work, they work because the players take advantage of it.  If they didn't, they wouldn't implement them.  Say what you want, but MTs are there to facilitate the players.  They're there because some of us (myself included) want an alternative way to earn items in game.  I don't want an unfair advantage, but sometimes I just don't want to invest 12 hours into grinding if I can spend $2 to achieve the same thing.  Ya know what?  That's my choice.

As long as MT items don't give an unfair advantage (aquiring something faster is not an unfair advantage.  Suck it up.), then I don't think there's anything worth complaining about.

What's more, MTs are becoming a widely accepted source of revenue.  Those of you that have an issue with this are going to have to learn to accept it.  It's not the end of the world, it's not the fall of MMOs, it's change, and all things change.  You can fight it and be left behind, or accept it and adapt.  The choice is yours.

In two weeks I'll be enjoying CO.  Where will you be?

So you're the unfair advantage police now?  Thats interesting, in actuality aquiring something faster in most cases is quite an advantage.. as I've explained in my previous posts.  In fact, it could be a tremendous advantage depending on what items are in the item mall.  Would I rather spend 12 hours grinding for a rare drop? Or would I rather pay 2 dollars (or potentially more to complete a set)  well ther person that can't or won't spend the extra money will either get frustrated and leave, or spend time grinding to stay competetive.  MTs are what you make them,  MTs as an item mall in a subscription game... thats a no-go.. especially with items with stats.  If you think thats not an advantage you're very wrong.  

In two weeks where will I be?  Probably not subbing to CO, and it has nothing to do with the MTs.  Looks like I'll wait and see though.

 I think there is an outcry for a different reason. I think the Asian Game market is scared because if the mainstream US game market picks up their golden carrot then they will have no more edge to keep players. Item Mall F2P vs Subcription. Both models seem to work and there is great fear on both sides. The Subs fear overcrowding by freebie folks in internet cafe's and a degredation of community control. The F2p'rs fear and invasion of a hybrid model that may end F2P and introduce Sub + F2P Item Mall. 

This should be a very interesting struggle... 

Originally posted by maskedweasel

I know that would probably kill the old lady population of CO.

Most of us beta testers already know that the old lady demographic is exactly what CO will be focusing on. Even now, in beta, the boards are overrun by old ladies and their odd ways and funny smells. Without them, the game is surely doomed.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Irishoak

You're not thinking like a company. This makes zero business sense to invest time and effort into a business model that does not produce maximum returns. The MT store is not for our convienence, it is a way to make money. To think Cryptic is adding this to combat "gold farmers" and help the casual player is laughable at best. They are preying on ignorance.

 

I guess you could say that any and all companies that operate for a profit are preying on ignorance then. Paying a subscription isn't for our convenience, its a way to make money. Charging for the game box isn't for our convenience, its a way to make money.

Do you think the cable companies charge extra for HBO because it makes it more convenient for their customers? No, they do it to cover the added cost of premium TV shows. Its no different in CO. If we want content above and beyond what would be available from subscription revenue only, then guess what? We are gonna have to pay extra for it.

You'd think that Cryptic just broke the news to the world that Santa Claus isn't real and that companies operate with the intention of making money. Now unless you're privy to well guarded info about what their profit margins are, then whether Cryptic uses MTs, expansions, card games, subscriptions, or robs old ladies is kind of a moot point. What matters is how much of that income is reinvested into the product. The types and sources of their income have little to no effect on that.

This isn't cable, the analogy wasn't that good the first time. I do not subscribe to the idea of charging 50 bucks for the game, 15 a month, and then having a MT store. If that makes sense to you, by all means consume. I will not take part in it or STO. I don't have a single firend who's willing to take part in either now. Must be mass hysteria. Or maybe just a horrid outbreak of common sense...

Originally posted by AldosAC

Say what you like, but MTs are a very effective source of income, and the more incom the game generates, the more funds the devs have to further invest in the title. 

No one claimed they were not effective, our major issue is with combining the premium subscription rate with the MT model. All the MT games I have ever played never charged a monthly fee nor did they charge for the game. Cryptic is wanting to charge 50 bucks for the game, 15 a month and then have the MT store. Do you honestly believe they will fill the MT store with unwanted items? No, the good stuff goes there or it's pointless to make it. And if you think the income generated from a MT store is going to fund anything but other items they sell you...well...

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by maskedweasel

I know that would probably kill the old lady population of CO.

 

Most of us beta testers already know that the old lady demographic is exactly what CO will be focusing on. Even now, in beta, the boards are overrun by old ladies and their odd ways and funny smells. Without them, the game is surely doomed.

All they do is start flame wars and grief people in PvP, the old biddies can go, imo.