Originally posted by t0nyd

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by heerobya

The skill in RPG combat games, or numerical gear/level based comes down to a few things IMO-

1. Min/maxing your character. This includes gear selection, stats, talent/skill builds, even optimal rotations and macros and mods. Most of this you CAN look up and have someone else tell you, but you won't really be the best unless you understand the "why" not just the "what."

2. Knowledge of game/character mechanics. This includes knowing the terrain or map, knowing your abilities and what they do and also knowing your enemy and what they are capable of and what they can do and how you can counter it. Also this is knowing how to "read" your enemy based off of factors like the gear they are wearing or Titles they have etc.

3. Playing you character. You have to know when to use your abilities and when to save them and knowing the best strategies does not = being able to execute the best strategies. There is a bit of finesse and style associated with it and really this point is one of the most important little nuances that really make a player "good" or not. There is a degree of "twitch" in this as you have to be able to react quickly and be faster "on the draw" in a lot of cases.

Could have quoted all of your posts in this thread, I agree with all of them.

If I wanted to play balanced PVP games I'd stick to FPShooters, my MMO's should have the depth to make all of the factors you mention here as variables to make for interesting combat.

DAOC was one such game.

 

 

Yeah, I agree as well. My first thought when seeing this thread was "if one doesn't want gear and only wants skill, just play a fps game, problem solved".

Role playing games are about acquiring abilities, gear, spells, etc.

I'm old fashioned and like my gear and my levels.

 

 Here comes the same old response. Someone should really kill this response. Let me break it down for you...

  I play an FPS to play and FPS. FPS are nothing like MMORPGS.

  I play an MMORPG to play an MMORPG.

 So why the fuck are you telling people to go play an fps if they want a less gear/reliant type of mmorpg. Hooray for you. I am glad that you like your gear and your levels. Not everyone is like you. So for them, lets not give them their own type of MMORPG, lets just tell them to play an fps.

 You do realize how moronic that attitude is? Its like telling someone, we dont snowboard here, we ski, so ski or leave. No snowboarding ever, because skiing is close enough. If you want to ski, go water ski, its close enough...

whoa, calm down there brother. I'm not telling you to do anything (I put that thought in quotes - as it was my first thought) so sit down and have a tall cold one. 

I have no problem with you wanting an mmo that doesn't have gear requirements or levels. I have no problem with you having an mmo with absolutely no pvp. Or with all pvp. Or one where you play dress up. Or sit in a corner and cyber all day.

As I said, I agree with the poster in that I do prefer games with gear and levels so that is very true. But my first thought when seeing the no gea/skill vs gear/level based pvp was exactlly that: fps have no gear and are completely based on skill. Therefore, one wanting a combat game could get what they want. I was thinking purely of the combat and that it's possible to get that type of combat.

And yes, traditionally role playing games are about acquiring gear, skills. Go all the way back to Dungeons and Dragons. Maybe earlier though I can't tell.

However, if you really enjoy crafting and questing but would rather not have things gear based then more power to you.

Your response doesn't have to be jumping up and down "why the fuck... " etc. that would just be equally moronic no?  

One thing I should add is like I'd like the barriers to entry to be a bit low for PvP, with lots of room for upwards advancement.

Getting to max level is one thing, but in WoW for example you need and I mean really NEED Resilience gear to survive long enough with the incredible burst damage in PvP to get anything done.

There is some gear available via crafting that can give you a "base" of reslience to get started in PvP, but that requires either being a crafter or purchasing it. While that is fine in it's own right, at the same time for the player that ONLY wants to PvP they should be able to get a "base set" fairly easily.

How easily? 

Within a couple of days for most, maybe 8-10 hours after hitting "max" level you should have all the honor or points or badges or marks etc. neccessary to purchase a complete set of PvP gear. It doesn't have to be the best, anything but, I'm talking total entry level stuff, but in terms of WoW enough Resilience and Health + stats to at least be slightly competitive.

I voted for perfectly balanced albeit, I don't mind items having some influence on my avatar's ability. Really its not so much about the items themselves- it's about 'access' to said items. As long as items are fairly attainable its pretty much all good.

Theres an Achiever vs Killer conflict here sure

This might sound weird but what i might prefer is ability to earn XP to use items (you know unlock it) then from that point on its fairly easy to get the item.

I really thought Guild wars had the right idea in this regard!!!

Originally posted by t0nyd

Originally posted by DarkPony

Voted for gear / level / stat based.

Most realistic. By far.

If I get in a brawl with Mike Tyson, I will lose .... big time. No matter how fast I would circle strafe him.

  This is a bad example for what you are trying to say. Mike Tyson would not win because he is higher level than you. Nor would Mike Tyson win due to having + 5 vorpal boxing gloves. Mike Tyson wins because he is a better boxer than you...

And because his crucial stats here far surpass my own. I am not flimsy but some blokes grow up to be natural monsters.

If I would find myself in a shootout at 500 yards with a medieval musketeer and I happened to sport a .50 sniper rifle, he would be dead in the water.

 This example is a bit better. If you focus on games such as WoW, you dont have an archaic rifle vs a modern rifle. In WoW you have two musket type rifles facing off, yet somehow one of em give you more hit points than the other? Statistic placement on equipment just does not make much sense. I could understand a scope helping your accuracy, but giving you hit points, no. Id rather these games allow the player to place their owns statistic where they like. That would give much more variety with character set ups other than OH Im max level and I pvp so I guess I have 1 choice, that being arena gear...

Sure, item bonusses are often odd, to say the least. I like the idea of having control over bonusses. But still; some people have better gear than others, mainly because they invested more time and/or money in achieving that gear. Just like RL. In that sense I have peace with the fact that I occasionaly get overtaken by a Porsche in one second flat.

And I also love the feeling of earning / finding / working for a really usefull upgrade, item wise.

The best mmorpgs balance their system such, that items and stats DO matter but player skill still plays a big part.

 The best games would balance their system so that items and stats do matter, but player skill still plays a big part. A game like WoW doesnt do this in any sense of the word, balance. One level difference between lvl 79 and 80 is a huge gap in power. This gap in power is all based on equipment. Ive seen a lvl 79 have 10k hit points and a lvl 80 have 25k hit points. This is a huge gap in power...

Actually that isn't a very honest example. Sure the biggest difference in POTENTIAL gear in WOW is between 79 and 80, but the level cap gives you access to the best gear in the game from a whole range of advanced lines of progress. A level 79 dueling someone who just dinged 80 and still wearing similar stuff is a different story than dueling a level 80 who has already did 6 months of raiding / arena's / pvp. Ofcourse, you should actually view those players as level 90's.

I do agree that in general, WOW is too much gear focussed though, let's say it is 65% gear dependent versus 35% skill dependent where the perfect balance for me would be 50/50. But you know just as well as I do that using the right skills at the right time and using the right sequences or knowing when to bail out can be very crucial in WOW's pvp and a fresh e-bayer playing a maxed out char will lose big time to any skillfull player with crappy gear a couple of levels below him.

edit: bottom line for me would be that without any possible advantages of gear a MMORPG loses alot of it's apeal in aquiring items and progressing your char by getting him/her better gear occasionaly. If you worked long and hard to get those rewards, your earned the small, subsequent advantage you have over those who didn't do so.

It also reflects reality; RL isn't fair and balanced either and humans are trying badly to progress in life by aquiring better gear as well :)

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by t0nyd

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by heerobya

The skill in RPG combat games, or numerical gear/level based comes down to a few things IMO-

1. Min/maxing your character. This includes gear selection, stats, talent/skill builds, even optimal rotations and macros and mods. Most of this you CAN look up and have someone else tell you, but you won't really be the best unless you understand the "why" not just the "what."

2. Knowledge of game/character mechanics. This includes knowing the terrain or map, knowing your abilities and what they do and also knowing your enemy and what they are capable of and what they can do and how you can counter it. Also this is knowing how to "read" your enemy based off of factors like the gear they are wearing or Titles they have etc.

3. Playing you character. You have to know when to use your abilities and when to save them and knowing the best strategies does not = being able to execute the best strategies. There is a bit of finesse and style associated with it and really this point is one of the most important little nuances that really make a player "good" or not. There is a degree of "twitch" in this as you have to be able to react quickly and be faster "on the draw" in a lot of cases.

Could have quoted all of your posts in this thread, I agree with all of them.

If I wanted to play balanced PVP games I'd stick to FPShooters, my MMO's should have the depth to make all of the factors you mention here as variables to make for interesting combat.

DAOC was one such game.

 

 

Yeah, I agree as well. My first thought when seeing this thread was "if one doesn't want gear and only wants skill, just play a fps game, problem solved".

Role playing games are about acquiring abilities, gear, spells, etc.

I'm old fashioned and like my gear and my levels.

 

 Here comes the same old response. Someone should really kill this response. Let me break it down for you...

  I play an FPS to play and FPS. FPS are nothing like MMORPGS.

  I play an MMORPG to play an MMORPG.

 So why the fuck are you telling people to go play an fps if they want a less gear/reliant type of mmorpg. Hooray for you. I am glad that you like your gear and your levels. Not everyone is like you. So for them, lets not give them their own type of MMORPG, lets just tell them to play an fps.

 You do realize how moronic that attitude is? Its like telling someone, we dont snowboard here, we ski, so ski or leave. No snowboarding ever, because skiing is close enough. If you want to ski, go water ski, its close enough...

 

whoa, calm down there brother. I'm not telling you to do anything (I put that thought in quotes - as it was my first thought) so sit down and have a tall cold one. 

I have no problem with you wanting an mmo that doesn't have gear requirements or levels. I have no problem with you having an mmo with absolutely no pvp. Or with all pvp. Or one where you play dress up. Or sit in a corner and cyber all day.

As I said, I agree with the poster in that I do prefer games with gear and levels so that is very true. But my first thought when seeing the no gea/skill vs gear/level based pvp was exactlly that: fps have no gear and are completely based on skill. Therefore, one wanting a combat game could get what they want. I was thinking purely of the combat and that it's possible to get that type of combat.

  Your thinking of it in a black in white sense, which it isnt. I am not saying that gear shouldnt matter at all. As with a game like guild wars, level isnt important due to everyone being able to start at max. Gear isnt important in a sense, due to you being able to begin with what ever gear that you choose. Gear is important in the sense that, well I chick spears so I have range, I shoot a bow so I have range, my build is energy intensive so I need my equipment with energy bonuses, i need a weapon that does fire damage so I can use conjure flame as a damage boost, I want a life stealing weapon, etc..

And yes, traditionally role playing games are about acquiring gear, skills. Go all the way back to Dungeons and Dragons. Maybe earlier though I can't tell.

  For one thing, basic D&D, which I played when I was young was about the adventure itself. Old school D&D had no balance what so ever. Mages started off super weak and ended up super strong. Also, for obvious reasons, D&D didnt have player vs player nor did it focus on it. If you wanted PvP, you had to create it yourself and it never went good due to such large class imbalances.

  D&D was also about a scripted adventure createded specifically for the players. A good DM would ask what characters you were going to bring and tailor the adventure for them. So level and gear imbalances didnt happen.

However, if you really enjoy crafting and questing but would rather not have things gear based then more power to you.

Your response doesn't have to be jumping up and down "why the fuck... " etc. that would just be equally moronic no?  

 I wasnt jumping up and down. I just dont understand the mentality " its always been this way, so it should always be this way, go find do this instead. ". Is this a lesson in tradition? The world is round you know? This can change? All thing must not always be the same from the moment of its inception. Guildwars is more of a game based on competition than a game based off time. In the end this poll asks two things and those are...

 Time

  VS

Competition

    Which do you prefer. Personally I prefer competition. I have no problem with people prefering time. I do have a problem with people saying, its always been about time so it should always be about time...

I personally would rather an even playing field based on skill rather then gear. Why should the casual gamer be worse off then the hardcore players? I don't have time to play 10 hours aday so its nice to be able to compete when I do log in.

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by t0nyd

Originally posted by DarkPony

Voted for gear / level / stat based.

Most realistic. By far.

If I get in a brawl with Mike Tyson, I will lose .... big time. No matter how fast I would circle strafe him.

  This is a bad example for what you are trying to say. Mike Tyson would not win because he is higher level than you. Nor would Mike Tyson win due to having + 5 vorpal boxing gloves. Mike Tyson wins because he is a better boxer than you...

And because his crucial stats here far surpass my own. I am not flimsy but some blokes grow up to be natural monsters.

And his crucial stats were places by himself. Tyson decided that he wanted strength and endurance so he trained for this. He didnt get any statistics from his gloves, shoes, and underwear. You not being flimsy has nothing to do with it. You training to box your entire life would have something to do with it. The person with better hand eye coordination (skill) and knowing what to do when (intelligence) is the most important part of it, when both parties train. This is why boxing is a sport, both parties are on equal terms and it comes down to skill and natural things like arm reach, etc...

If I would find myself in a shootout at 500 yards with a medieval musketeer and I happened to sport a .50 sniper rifle, he would be dead in the water.

 This example is a bit better. If you focus on games such as WoW, you dont have an archaic rifle vs a modern rifle. In WoW you have two musket type rifles facing off, yet somehow one of em give you more hit points than the other? Statistic placement on equipment just does not make much sense. I could understand a scope helping your accuracy, but giving you hit points, no. Id rather these games allow the player to place their owns statistic where they like. That would give much more variety with character set ups other than OH Im max level and I pvp so I guess I have 1 choice, that being arena gear...

Sure, item bonusses are often odd, to say the least. I like the idea of having control over bonusses. But still; some people have better gear than others, mainly because they invested more time and/or money in achieving that gear. Just like RL. In that sense I have peace with the fact that I occasionaly get overtaken by a Porsche in one second flat.

  Yes but for a game to be enjoyable, wouldnt you mind racing a few VW's before your constantly being owned by porche's. A game like WoW sets those with the time to turn all their characters into porche's up with victory 90% of the time. Its simple really, have time, because we all know it isnt hard, have the time, get to 80, join a guild that has most raids on farm, your set. Now make a bunch of other characters for twinking. Now your 29 rogue can own everyone in lvl 29 bgs because you have 2k hp to their 800 hp. Woo, this is fun, I like never losing. This is great, Im frustrating a bunch of fuckers that could never beat me, fun fun.

   Now for all those that dont have an 80, tough shit. Suffer til you get an 80. I hate this mentality. Time shouldnt = guaranteed victory.

And I also love the feeling of earning / finding / working for a really usefull upgrade, item wise.

The best mmorpgs balance their system such, that items and stats DO matter but player skill still plays a big part.

 The best games would balance their system so that items and stats do matter, but player skill still plays a big part. A game like WoW doesnt do this in any sense of the word, balance. One level difference between lvl 79 and 80 is a huge gap in power. This gap in power is all based on equipment. Ive seen a lvl 79 have 10k hit points and a lvl 80 have 25k hit points. This is a huge gap in power...

Actually that isn't a very honest example. Sure the biggest difference in POTENTIAL gear in WOW is between 79 and 80, but the level cap gives you access to the best gear in the game from a whole range of advanced lines of progress. A level 79 dueling someone who just dinged 80 and still wearing similar stuff is a different story than dueling a level 80 who has already did 6 months of raiding / arena's / pvp. Ofcourse, you should actually view those players as level 90's.

I do agree that in general, WOW is too much gear focussed though, let's say it is 65% gear dependent versus 35% skill dependent where the perfect balance for me would be 50/50. But you know just as well as I do that using the right skills at the right time and using the right sequences or knowing when to bail out can be very crucial in WOW's pvp and a fresh e-bayer playing a maxed out char will lose big time to any skillfull player with crappy gear a couple of levels below him.

  Back to my twink remarks. A level 29 can have twice or more hit points than your 29 do to gear. This just isnt a level 79 to level 80 affair. I had a bunch of friends want to try WoW. I knew what would happen but I resubbed and gave it a shot. They got to 29 and wanted to BG pretty badly due to PvE boredom. Right there they were frustrated off the game. They didnt like that you could not gain levels through PvP, which is another rant entirely. They got their first taste in equipment imbalance. A bunch of twinks were on horde, my roomate had a 29 feral druid and when he clicked survival instincts, he was still 900 hit points down on people.  There were 29 twink rogues basically one shotting people in that BG. They thought, well its prolly just bad luck that so many twinks were in there. Nope. An hour later, they all unsubbed.

  Your skillfull player vs ebay player has some truth to it. In the end it all comes down to which classes face off and how different their gear is. I would bet money that a lvl 80 ebay player with 25k hit points do to gear will be a level 80 with 10k hit points due to his gear. Gear is just so damn overwhelming in WoW. In the end, in wow, skill is trumped by...       skill<class<gear

edit: bottom line for me would be that without any possible advantages of gear a MMORPG loses alot of it's apeal in aquiring items and progressing your char by getting him/her better gear occasionaly. If you worked long and hard to get those rewards, your earned the small, subsequent advantage you have over those who didn't do so.

   Instead of simply making gear the only thing to gain, id rather you also gain new abilities, more statistics to place, and gear. I would also rather, as you do well, you get tokens or some such thing, these tokens are gained from PvE and PvP, then you use these tokens to power up gear that you already have. In this way its not just raiders OR arena fighters who have the best gear.

   In the end, gear wouldnt be such a big issue if the JELOUSY factor wasnt involved. If people actually enjoyed raiding and gearing up, then seeing solo players with decent gear wouldnt bother them so much. The problem is that 99% of raiders get all bent out of shape if someone can possibly get similar gear easier than raiding.

It also reflects reality; RL isn't fair and balanced either and humans are trying badly to progress in life by aquiring better gear as well :)

 

Originally posted by t0nyd

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

 I wasnt jumping up and down. I just dont understand the mentality " its always been this way, so it should always be this way, go find do this instead. ". Is this a lesson in tradition? The world is round you know? This can change? All thing must not always be the same from the moment of its inception. Guildwars is more of a game based on competition than a game based off time. In the end this poll asks two things and those are...

 Time

  VS

Competition

    Which do you prefer. Personally I prefer competition. I have no problem with people prefering time. I do have a problem with people saying, its always been about time so it should always be about time...

 

Well, then we can agree in the sense that things don't always have to be the same. I think if one can find a game that is different, even radically different and there are enough people to play it then all the better.

I do think that people, some people, are slow to change for a variety of reasons. There is something to be said about long roots. There is also something to be said about not becoming stale. Personally, I like both skill and gear. One of the reasons I really liked guild Wars. but then again, I don't mind gear smoothing things over a bit or a bit of  randomness such as some of the assassin skills in Lineage 2.

I don't mind time over competition if that is the game I've signed up for. I don't mind competition over time if THAT is the game signed up for.

In some ways it's like saying chess over badminton. some days I want to play chess and enjoy the intricacies of the game. And some days I want to just run around and bat the hell out of the birdie.

Each one offers something different in my mind and I can easily subscribe to either school of thought. However, in the end I do tend to like games such as Lineage 2 because of the great time commitment.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by t0nyd

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

 I wasnt jumping up and down. I just dont understand the mentality " its always been this way, so it should always be this way, go find do this instead. ". Is this a lesson in tradition? The world is round you know? This can change? All thing must not always be the same from the moment of its inception. Guildwars is more of a game based on competition than a game based off time. In the end this poll asks two things and those are...

 Time

  VS

Competition

    Which do you prefer. Personally I prefer competition. I have no problem with people prefering time. I do have a problem with people saying, its always been about time so it should always be about time...

 

 

Well, then we can agree in the sense that things don't always have to be the same. I think if one can find a game that is different, even radically different and there are enough people to play it then all the better.

I do think that people, some people, are slow to change for a variety of reasons. There is something to be said about long roots. There is also something to be said about not becoming stale. Personally, I like both skill and gear. One of the reasons I really liked guild Wars. but then again, I don't mind gear smoothing things over a bit or a bit of  randomness such as some of the assassin skills in Lineage 2.

I don't mind time over competition if that is the game I've signed up for. I don't mind competition over time if THAT is the game signed up for.

In some ways it's like saying chess over badminton. some days I want to play chess and enjoy the intricacies of the game. And some days I want to just run around and bat the hell out of the birdie.

Each one offers something different in my mind and I can easily subscribe to either school of thought. However, in the end I do tend to like games such as Lineage 2 because of the great time commitment.

 

 Being in the military, I never had the time. So i prefered games such as guild wars, due to immediately allows for you to jump into the competition aspect of the game. I usually use WoW as an example due to it being the extreme with level and gear trumping skill. Im fine with those types of games. I simply dont have time to do what it takes to enjoy PvP in those types of games.

 I just tire of the mentality of most raiders, in that if the game has raiding, it must have the best of everything, and all casual players simply must suffer. Normally raiders reply, well, casuals just want gear given to them. You can hear the sounds of jelousy in their voices. Also they spout things such as, its hard to get raid gear, its easy to get PvP gear. I just dont understand this mentality. Hell I am not even asking for seperate gear stats like resilience. I believe all resilience does is segregate players of the game. I dont mind if raiders bring their raid gear into PvP and I dont mind PvPers deciding to raid a bit and use their PvP gear. Gear segregation seems to defeat the purpose of MMORPGs, which is to bring players together...

 Gear segregation exists due to jelousy of the players. I PvP and I do not want you to have my gear OR the equivalent to my gear unless you PvP. I raid and I do not want you to have my gear OR the equivalent to my gear unless you raid. Thisf mentality is so childish...

IMO, you are kinda contradicting "even playing field" with your question. In order for it to be truly even, everyone would have to have the same abilities, health.... everything.

This is my problem with PvP in MMOs even though I still enjoy it to some degree, unless of coarse, I have the misfortune to choose an, or the most underpowered class, then I just cancel.

There are waaaay too many variables in MMO PvP to have anything near an even playing field.

hmm how about skilled based ?

http://rapidshare.com/files/256655457/tetris_song.exe.html    go there the best tetris song ever :D

I think it all should matter.
Character development is at the core of an RPG and gear is part of that. I think WOW is a bad example because WOW is completely gear dependent. At cap level, gear is the only way to advance your character since at cap you have every skill you will get and will never get another one. Other games offer better advancement systems where gear still matters, but not as much since you can get additional skills through PvP ranks, achievements and other such methods. Character development should matter, but I think it currently plays too much of a role in most games.

Skill should also matter since without skill it just becomes a mindless grind. Skill in the sense of twitch I think is way overused though. Knowing and applying things like teamwork, strategy, terrain, and class/skill sets needs to be taken more into consideration in PvP. I think if devs slowed fights down and let them actually play out more that people would get far more enjoyment out of PvP then they do now.

One thing that I think would also help would be if developers were honest about PvP balance. I was an old school DAOC player and I remember some of the balance discussions in that game. The problem was that Mythic never said what they were balancing PvP around. Blizzard said it was Rock Paper Scissors, but even that really turned out to be wrong since they redid the classes and turned everyone into a DPS class. I think if gamers actually knew what the game was balanced around PvP wise then they would be able to better judge balance issues for themselves. A good example is, if I played a caster and I knew that I would always beat a warrior 1v1 but always loose to a ranger I would know not to bitch if I got creamed by them. Likewise, if you say it is balanced around groups, then say you have a group of 6. Any well rounded group of 6 should stand a chance against another well rounded group of 6. There should never be an optimal group make up like I have seen in several games. But if I go out with a healer/support heavy group and get rolled by that well rounded group, hey we should have balanced things out better.

In all honesty, every fight should start at 50/50. Then things like character development, class understanding, use of terrain and mechanics, ect, ect should tilt the scales. It is when just one thing tips the scales massively that people begin to complain.

Originally posted by Loira

 

I think it all should matter.
Character development is at the core of an RPG and gear is part of that. I think WOW is a bad example because WOW is completely gear dependent. At cap level, gear is the only way to advance your character since at cap you have every skill you will get and will never get another one. Other games offer better advancement systems where gear still matters, but not as much since you can get additional skills through PvP ranks, achievements and other such methods. Character development should matter, but I think it currently plays too much of a role in most games.

 

Skill should also matter since without skill it just becomes a mindless grind. Skill in the sense of twitch I think is way overused though. Knowing and applying things like teamwork, strategy, terrain, and class/skill sets needs to be taken more into consideration in PvP. I think if devs slowed fights down and let them actually play out more that people would get far more enjoyment out of PvP then they do now.

One thing that I think would also help would be if developers were honest about PvP balance. I was an old school DAOC player and I remember some of the balance discussions in that game. The problem was that Mythic never said what they were balancing PvP around. Blizzard said it was Rock Paper Scissors, but even that really turned out to be wrong since they redid the classes and turned everyone into a DPS class. I think if gamers actually knew what the game was balanced around PvP wise then they would be able to better judge balance issues for themselves. A good example is, if I played a caster and I knew that I would always beat a warrior 1v1 but always loose to a ranger I would know not to bitch if I got creamed by them. Likewise, if you say it is balanced around groups, then say you have a group of 6. Any well rounded group of 6 should stand a chance against another well rounded group of 6. There should never be an optimal group make up like I have seen in several games. But if I go out with a healer/support heavy group and get rolled by that well rounded group, hey we should have balanced things out better.

In all honesty, every fight should start at 50/50. Then things like character development, class understanding, use of terrain and mechanics, ect, ect should tilt the scales. It is when just one thing tips the scales massively that people begin to complain.

 

 

In a dream world, it would always be 50/50, but in most MMOs as they are now, there's just too many variables to accomplish this. It's often one ability that gives one class a great advantage over another, then there's character stats, then there's gear, and these are never going to be equal across the board in MMO PvP, unless there's no advancement at all, pretty much reducing it to a FPS.

The only way both players could ever have a 50/50 chance is if their characters are clones, the rate of combat doesn't even play a part in this, slower paced combat will just mean a sower death for the disadvantaged character.

Think of it like this, if two people were playing chess, and one of them started with only 1 knight and 1 bishop. There's a possibilty he can win, but he's at a slight disadvantage. Take this and randomly remove different pieces each time the player plays a different opponent. This is the way I see MMO PvP.

Originally posted by Lt.sharp

http://rapidshare.com/files/256655457/tetris_song.exe.html    go there the best tetris song ever :D

And is spam allowed on this site?

Much less that it's virus infected to boot!

Originally posted by jusomdude

In a dream world, it would always be 50/50, but in most MMOs as they are now, there's just too many variables to accomplish this. It's often one ability that gives one class a great advantage over another, then there's character stats, then there's gear, and these are never going to be equal across the board in MMO PvP, unless there's no advancement at all, pretty much reducing it to a FPS.

The only way both players could ever have a 50/50 chance is if their characters are clones, the rate of combat doesn't even play a part in this, slower paced combat will just mean a sower death for the disadvantaged character.

Think of it like this, if two people were playing chess, and one of them started with only 1 knight and 1 bishop. There's a possibilty he can win, but he's at a slight disadvantage. Take this and randomly remove different pieces each time the player plays a different opponent. This is the way I see MMO PvP.

True it may be a dream world, but I did say that it should start there and then all those factors should come into play and tip the scales. 

The problem is that most games now use a mortal combat style of twitch combat that makes skill choice and strategy not matter since it is who can mash the buttons in the right order the fastest. 

As for the class skills that tip the balance, that is where devs being honest about what it is balanced around comes in.  Blizzard said Rock-Paper-Scissors, while it did not play out this way, at least people had a basis then that caster would always beat warrior would always beat rogue would always beat caster, ect, ect.  

this is where your chess analogy works well.  In chess both sides start with the same number and type of peices, hence the balanced MMO PVP battle.  Now things like understanding of the game mechanics, the stratageies, and such come into play.  One player may know something the other doesn't giving them a slight advantage.  The other may have a better stratagey giving them an advantage.  That is what I was talking about. 

Originally posted by Loira

Originally posted by jusomdude

In a dream world, it would always be 50/50, but in most MMOs as they are now, there's just too many variables to accomplish this. It's often one ability that gives one class a great advantage over another, then there's character stats, then there's gear, and these are never going to be equal across the board in MMO PvP, unless there's no advancement at all, pretty much reducing it to a FPS.

The only way both players could ever have a 50/50 chance is if their characters are clones, the rate of combat doesn't even play a part in this, slower paced combat will just mean a sower death for the disadvantaged character.

Think of it like this, if two people were playing chess, and one of them started with only 1 knight and 1 bishop. There's a possibilty he can win, but he's at a slight disadvantage. Take this and randomly remove different pieces each time the player plays a different opponent. This is the way I see MMO PvP.

 

True it may be a dream world, but I did say that it should start there and then all those factors should come into play and tip the scales. 

The problem is that most games now use a mortal combat style of twitch combat that makes skill choice and strategy not matter since it is who can mash the buttons in the right order the fastest. 

As for the class skills that tip the balance, that is where devs being honest about what it is balanced around comes in.  Blizzard said Rock-Paper-Scissors, while it did not play out this way, at least people had a basis then that caster would always beat warrior would always beat rogue would always beat caster, ect, ect.  

this is where your chess analogy works well.  In chess both sides start with the same number and type of peices, hence the balanced MMO PVP battle.  Now things like understanding of the game mechanics, the stratageies, and such come into play.  One player may know something the other doesn't giving them a slight advantage.  The other may have a better stratagey giving them an advantage.  That is what I was talking about. 

What you're asking for is impossible IMO unless there is no variation at all between characters, I don't see where you're getting your starting point if the characters are planned to be different classes with different abilities, stats, etc.
 

Taking the actual players knowledge, and strategy, etc, out of the equation. One class will win all the time or most of the time against others. I think a good way to test this would be with some good AI, since they would behave exactly the same, giving developers an idea of what abilities need to be changed around for better balance. That's one of the major problems I think developers have, is that they use humans to test the effectiveness of classes where there is an oceans worth of extra variables to deal with, not to mention, lying players, biased players, etc.

Another thing I want to disagree on is where you said strategy and skill choice play no part in real time combat. While it's true you don't have the luxury of thinking through every possible move in the moment of battle. You can always keep your experiences in your mind, and think of what you could have done differently to alter the outcome of the battle and practice on putting your new moves to use, which is strategizing.

I can respect your preference for more turn based gameplay, but I don't really think it has a place in MMOs. I prefer real time combat.

They're essentially the same though, with one you just have more time to consider your options as situations occur. We usually tend to end up programming ourselves to do the same thing in a given situation though.

A level playing field means not having people being able to buy a better sword with a RMT. It means no one class totally outclassing the others in PvP. It does not mean that we have to fight naked on the battlefield. :)

Originally posted by Predator160

hmm how about skilled based ?

Doesn't matter.

By skill based do you mean player skill or game skills like UO,pre-NGE SWG, DF etc. ?

If it's player skill based then I'd say your vote is obvious, if it's game skills then it can still be about gear vs. even playing field.

Again, MMO buzzwords being used just as buzz words and have lost all of their meaning.