I had burned out on raiding, but Vanguard has got me back into it.  Also, having a great guild of adults that are punctual and listen helps a ton.  We plan our raids in advance and use a custom scheduler.  We also vary the raid targets, smaller raids for days when people have less time (maybe just a 12-man 1 hour raid) and larger raids for Friday nights when people have a few hours for a good dungeon crawel (24-man for 3-4 hours).

Variety and flexibility with raid targets plus a great group of folks has made raiding something that I look forward to during the week.  If we schedule for 7pm, everyone is ready by 6:45pm.  In fact, we've had our first target dead before the schedule start time on some evenings.  That kind of committment makes it fun for everyone.

Originally posted by johnspartan

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

 

But still aren't you limited by the amount of data you can transmit over a single tic back and forth? 

Yes you are, That's why most messages between MMORPG servers and clients is only a few bytes in length (if that). the server takes care of ALL the game logic.

Seems like the more people you have and the more complicated the fight is and the more scripts the server has to call for per tic and such etc. etc. it'd really eat up the bandwidth and thus cause lag and dead players.

Right, but you're assuming that you have to have some 10,000 line server-side AI script to make a battle challenging. Most video game AI behavior only takes up a couple of short lines of code. Small behaviors based on player state, rather than random number generation, aren't very process intensive at all. In fact, most AI behaviors are just one boolean test and a one line response based on the true or false outcome. Bandwidth doesn't even factor since it's the load on the server's CPU that dictates how much can be done in one tic.

Not all computer AI needs the processing power of Deep Blue to create challenge.

Hell you can even throw in individual PC performance because not everyone has super computers and such, so you can cause a lot of lag that way.

Having a hard time seeing why this is even being brought up. The only thing the client does is pass player commands to the server and render the graphics based on messages from the server. If the player's computer can't keep up with the graphics, you're going to have lag regardless of how much scripting the server uses for AI. If the player's PC can't juggle the graphics database fast enough, it's going to have lag regardless of the how much scripting the server uses for AI. But since NONE of the game logic is run on the player's PC, there is no chance that more crafty AI will be responsible for the player's PC  overheating.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Yes you are, That's why most messages between MMORPG servers and clients is only a few bytes in length (if that). the server takes care of ALL the game logic.

Right, but you're assuming that you have to have some 10,000 line server-side AI script to make a battle challenging. Most video game AI behavior only takes up a couple of short lines of code. Small behaviors based on player state, rather than random number generation, aren't very process intensive at all. In fact, most AI behaviors are just one boolean test and a one line response based on the true or false outcome. Bandwidth doesn't even factor since it's the load on the server's CPU that dictates how much can be done in one tic.

Not all computer AI needs the processing power of Deep Blue to create challenge.

Having a hard time seeing why this is even being brought up. The only thing the client does is pass player commands to the server and render the graphics based on messages from the server. If the player's computer can't keep up with the graphics, you're going to have lag regardless of how much scripting the server uses for AI. If the player's PC can't juggle the graphics database fast enough, it's going to have lag regardless of the how much scripting the server uses for AI. But since NONE of the game logic is run on the player's PC, there is no chance that more crafty AI will be responsible for the player's PC  overheating.

 

Yeah but that already happens. I mean, I could name you tons of fights where there are various player states and the boss adjusts to those states and it's totally random who get's those negative states (or positive states) so it becomes a matter of paying attention and reacting.

It's not as scripted as you may think, sure there are "dance" moves in some fights like stand here when this happens, but usually the places to stand are random and which players have to stand where is random.

I can gaurantee you no two fights in PvE raids, in MOST cases, are ever exactly the same.

Throw in random dice rolls stuff (these are RPG's afterall) and a crit here or there or a special ability proc here or there can drastically change the fight.

What more do you want?

I mean if you read the strategy online on a boss fight in a game like WoW, yeah some are easier then others but some are ridiculously complex and VERY dependant on randomness, like "if this happens to you, you have to do this" but it's totally random.

You want challenge and a random fight that is a LOT more then a dance, that is different every time I could give you tons of examples. Mimiron, Thaddius charges, Prince from Kara, Kel'Thuzad with the MC, I could really go on and on.

For me, as far back as EQ, raiding has always been both a chore and a bore.  The OP summed it up pretty well, and I'd rather stab my eyes with forks than go on raids.  Maximum futility and boredom for minimal results.

Originally posted by johnspartan

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

 

 

Yeah but that already happens. I mean, I could name you tons of fights where there are various player states and the boss adjusts to those states and it's totally random who get's those negative states (or positive states) so it becomes a matter of paying attention and reacting.

It's not as scripted as you may think, sure there are "dance" moves in some fights like stand here when this happens, but usually the places to stand are random and which players have to stand where is random.

I can gaurantee you no two fights in PvE raids, in MOST cases, are ever exactly the same.

Throw in random dice rolls stuff (these are RPG's afterall) and a crit here or there or a special ability proc here or there can drastically change the fight.

What more do you want?

I mean if you read the strategy online on a boss fight in a game like WoW, yeah some are easier then others but some are ridiculously complex and VERY dependant on randomness, like "if this happens to you, you have to do this" but it's totally random.

You want challenge and a random fight that is a LOT more then a dance, that is different every time I could give you tons of examples. Mimiron, Thaddius charges, Prince from Kara, Kel'Thuzad with the MC, I could really go on and on.

And now we're on a much more interesting idea. Designing the AI.

It isn't so much a matter of wanting more as it is a matter of wanting something more fitting to the actual game. Looking at the actions of these mobs, it becomes increasingly apparent that the developers are still stuck in the single player design mode. The raid bosses only attack the highest aggro, the boss can be easily stopped from moving by a melee tank with aggro, once stopped the boss get surrounded easily, etc.

The problem is that these bosses aren't fighting the group as a group. It's more like the boss is fighting an individual with a few AOE attacks thrown in for dramatic effect. If the boss moved according to the group postition rather than the player with the most aggro AND targeted according to specific criteria (class, health, distance, etc.) then you would have much closer, and more interesting battles.

Again, none of this is hard to code or taxing on the system resources. It just requires the developers to rethink how a boss should work in an MMO environment.

I used to raid weekly in LOTRO (the same raid over and over and over LOL) until I realized what a time sick it was. For me, when you have to plan your real life around a video game I've gone too far. I no longer raid because I don't have the time or interest.

From past experiences I've also found that the "raider crowd" isnt the type of people I get along with unfortionately. Loot can turn people greedy, which are the type of people I try to stay away from ingame.

Here's something most people don't realize. 

In most raids only 3 people are doing all of the work, maybe 4.  They are the ones having all of the fun.  They are the puller / coordinator, the tank, and the primary healer. 

Everyone else is just there pushing their 1 button and hoping some loot drops for them.

I didn't realize all of this till I was FINALLY able to gear up enough with my Paladin to off tnak Kharazan in woW.  Once I wasn't sitting in the back spamming heals and was in the fray positinoaing mobs and using all of my skills to hold aggro and stay alive, this concept hit me right in the face.

I prefer a single group experience over the raid experience anyday.  At least the single group experience involves each team mate to contribute 100%.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe 

And now we're on a much more interesting idea. Designing the AI.

It isn't so much a matter of wanting more as it is a matter of wanting something more fitting to the actual game. Looking at the actions of these mobs, it becomes increasingly apparent that the developers are still stuck in the single player design mode. The raid bosses only attack the highest aggro, the boss can be easily stopped from moving by a melee tank with aggro, once stopped the boss get surrounded easily, etc.

The problem is that these bosses aren't fighting the group as a group. It's more like the boss is fighting an individual with a few AOE attacks thrown in for dramatic effect. If the boss moved according to the group postition rather than the player with the most aggro AND targeted according to specific criteria (class, health, distance, etc.) then you would have much closer, and more interesting battles.

Again, none of this is hard to code or taxing on the system resources. It just requires the developers to rethink how a boss should work in an MMO environment.

Very well said, but I already see problems.

If the boss doesn't attack the highest aggro then what point is aggro and having tanks? If the boss will just attack whoever it feels is the most threatening, and you can do nothing like taunt or re-establish aggro, then all of your healers better also be tanks or they'll all die quickly.

If the boss will randomly attack any player surrounding them the healers will die from heart attacks and suffer even worse carpal tunnel from trying to keep up, having aggro and threat and taunting allows the healers to focus.

They already use mechanics like having adds or bosses with more then one entity or things like aggro drops and tank switches etc. etc. that accompish the EXACT same thing that you are asking for.

You HAVE to make it partially predictable, at least, because unfortunately most players probably couldn't keep up and things would be far TOO challenging if it was predictable and something you could learn. 

Unless you play for a world class guild like Ensidia, raid bosses and stuff are usually hard enough as is due to gear requirements and "the dance" being so intricate and with little room for mistakes and no cushion for failure.

Unless you are telling me you can do any raid boss in WoW, EQ, etc. without looking up strategies on the first try, then yeah it's already challenging enough!

I have two answers. A short and a detailed one.

The short answer:

Some posters above already mentioned it. Visit a new raid dungeon a couple of times and it gets old hat.

The detailed answer:

It's not mainly the raid / game mechanic that turns me off after some time. But it's best I first explain where I come from.

It's almost 20 years now that I first started with playing computer games. Back then there were quite some games available for my home computer. They'd fall into different categories: Jump&Run, Shoot 'em up, Strategy, Adventure, War games, Roleplaying Game, etc.

Roleplaying games seemed to be some sort of crossbreed between war games and adventures. Not as detailed or complex as a good adventure, but it provided enough background and story elements. There were some tactical aspects: combat, but on a lower scale than with war games. The concept did appeal to me.

A few years later I had contact with some of the later SSI games: Dark Sun, Ravenloft. That got me hooked to D&D. Then I tried some of the older SSI games: Gold Box Games, etc. They provided a set of core rules. There were variations between the different campaign settings, though. Most important was that you could jump right away into the campaign setting and then enjoy the evolving story. You didn't need to study a new rule set every time you got into a new game.

Again a few years later Bioware published Baldur's Gate. What I liked in this game was that you started as lone adventurer and with time NPCs joined your party (and NPC party members even provided small subquests for the sake of story flavour). And of course exploring the area around Baldur's Gate.The years after that brought some sequels and spin-offs. One of my favourites was and still is Planescape: Torment. It enhanced the story part and interaction between party members. They way you interacted with the environment was reflected in your alignment. And you were not forced to fight as much as in previous games, to advance the story.

After that I played Neverwinter Nights and Knights of the Old Republic. Neverwinter Nights even offers player made modules and persistent worlds to explore. To sum it up: I liked the way roleplaying games evolved.

I joined the MMO train rather late. It was some 4 years ago. Of course with WoW. A former work mate persuaded me to give it a try (although it took him several months to finally convince me). So a few months after WoW launched I started playing it. It was something new. An almost seemless world to be explored. I was greeted with some quests. It was some very easy tasks. Nothing difficult. I mostly played two classes that resembled my favourite classes from D&D. Shortly after I started to visit the first dungeons. The holy trinity: tank, spank & heal was new to me. But it was more challenging than simple questing and it was the only thing that came close to the feel of the old "group based" roleplaying games. With time I regarded questing as arduous and boring routine. I barely read quest texts (just click accept) and lost track of the overall background story and lore. I was either out exploring the world (discovering sunken ships, even swimming around the continents, etc.) or inside a dungeon. I had one toon at levelcap (a healer) and lots of others accross all level ranges. This way I could swiftly jump into dungeon groups. You could experiment with different group setups. It gives a feeling of achievment if you manage a dungeon with the least optimal group setup and the party plays smart. But what i didn't like was being dragged through a dungeon by a high level character.
I'm not much of a PvPer. But in the early stages of the game there were some "hot spots" where people from both factions met and battled. This was interesting. On a PvE server you could either watch the battle or participate. You could help your own faction without regard to your own level. Either join in into the focus fire or heal people around you. The battleground and arena pvp later on didn't interest me much. I couldn't care less about pvp rewards.
Eventually I started raiding with my max level toon (a healer), collected equipment and improved my reputation with NPC factions. At some point I had 4-5 evenings scheduled for raiding (big and small raid dungeons) per week. As mentioned earlier you can do that for a limited time until it finally gets boring. Plus you have to compromise quite a lot because there are at least 9/ 19 / 24 / 39 other people within the raid group. I couldn't care less about item rewards or tier sets, instead I went for my own "customized" set.

With time I realized that I like small group content more than raiding. No one is asking you to have the "best posible spec/build/equipment". I prefer it when teamplay matters more than equipment/build.

Eventually I stopped playing WoW (some time before WotLK arrived) and went for DDO. But my impression is that it doesn't matter which MMO you play, they all have similar issues in common.

Hopefully no one fell asleep while reading this. Maybe it may help understand why I don't like raiding anymore.

A summary of the issues I have with raiding:
1) commitment to time
I read frequently that people claim that good time management helps "playing efficiently". My experience in general is that lots of guilds (no matter if it's "good", "bad", "average" guilds) raid at least 3-4 days a week. On top of this you need time for preparations. If people only show up for the raids it leads to drama "you only show up when it's raiding time", "you don't care for your guild members", "we helped you finish that quest/ get your gear, but you never show up outside of the raid schedule", etc. Besides the time you spend on raids, you also have to be available outisde of the raid schedule.
2) challenge / strategy / tactics
Most guilds I have met just require you to read the boss guides like it's the "Holy Scripture". There's almost no strategy discussions. No experimenting with different group setups. It has to be done the way the walkthrough says. The same class setup, the same equipment level.
3) repetition
You have braved a new raid dungeon. You didn't need the best possible equipment or a full tier set in the first place to clear a raid dungeon. But still you go back week after week to minimally improve your gear. OK, I get that some people strive for perfection and efficiency. But where is the efficiency when you need 25% of the playing time to get your gear to a 90% performance level in comparison to 100% performance level with another 75% of playing time?
4) drama / "politics"
It's just a game. But sooner or later drama starts. "I worked hard for my tier X set", "I attended more hours raiding than you", "He can't quit now raiding, I didn't gear out all my toons yet", "Player X can't from now on switch to playing another toon. We can't find another player of class Y to replace him", "I earned my DKP thus I deserve the drop", etc. To keep raiding you have to have an influx of new players or team up with another raid group, because at some time veterans or newer raid members will drop out (retire from raiding, stop playing, join other raid, etc.). There will be discussions that some raid members seggregate themselves from the rest of the guild, are not willing help others outside of raids, etc. I don't mind a "good" drama in a "roleplaying game", but people take this raiding stuff far too serious.
5) item hunting
I don't care that much about virtual items. It's natural that you improve your equipment while playing, but I won't be running after items. With MMOs I have the feeling that developers and lots of players mistake character progression with item hunting. I can understand that developers do this because they can't create content at the pace players play through it, but players can choose their own goals. I don't like it when raids / dungeons are only some sort of item check that says "you didn't invest enough time to grind the appropriate equipment".
6) compromise
You have to compromise a lot. Commitment to time (as mentioned above), repeating raid dungeons (as mentioned above) to equip other or newer members. You have to build and equip your toon in a certain way (cut&paste cookie cutter build)... ... ...
7) player mindset / organisation
You can't easily switch your role in a raid. The guilds I knew just hadn't the redundancy in classes and players to allow swapping roles. They operated more or less at the bare minimum number of players that allowed raiding. For short times there may have been more raiders than actually raid spots, but somehow a rotation never worked because some people feared they would loose their raidspot or miss a "vital" drop.
 

Originally posted by theAsna

A summary of the issues I have with raiding:
1) commitment to time
2) challenge / strategy / tactics
3) repetition
4) drama / "politics"
5) item hunting
6) compromise
7) player mindset / organisation

1) like any group experience or team you have to commit to times that work for everyone involved and if you agree to participate you are expected to be there, if the activity requires preperation you are required to be prepared. Real world stuff.

2) No one is making you look up strategies instead of trying your own. No one is forcing you to take exactly 3 Warriors and 4 priests etc. If your guild/friends are, that a personal thing and VERY subjective and not a shared experience common to ALL players

3)It's a MMORPG, they are built on repetition

4) Again, subjective and if your guild/friends are, that a personal thing and VERY subjective and not a shared experience common to ALL players

5) it's a RPG after all, RPG + Fantasy usually = loot

6) Any group activity is not the "Bob" show or the "Joe" show, it's a collective effort. You can't have everything your way in a group setting without causing problems, you HAVE to compromise in any group setting, even like a marriage or dating IRL

7) Again, subjective and if your guild/friends are, that a personal thing and VERY subjective and not a shared experience common to ALL players

Now I know you started your post with "issues I have with raiding" but every single one of them is highly personal and subjective, in in essence "the nature of the beast" and nearly unavoidable and thusly, I feel, a situation where if you didn't know what you were getting into before diving in... no one to blame but yourself.
 

Originally posted by johnspartan

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe 

 

Very well said, but I already see problems.

If the boss doesn't attack the highest aggro then what point is aggro and having tanks? If the boss will just attack whoever it feels is the most threatening, and you can do nothing like taunt or re-establish aggro, then all of your healers better also be tanks or they'll all die quickly.

Or you can group you healers close enough that they can support one another. You can also have wizards cast invisibility spells on the healers so that the boss can't see them. Or you could just keep tanks close by and have the healers scatter when the boss gets too close. Giving healers a teleport spell or making the boss's movement rate slower than the healers would cancel this out pretty quickly.

If the boss will randomly attack any player surrounding them the healers will die from heart attacks and suffer even worse carpal tunnel from trying to keep up, having aggro and threat and taunting allows the healers to focus.

Actually, I was thinking that the boss would just move and / or attack the edges of the group so that the raid group has to stay on one side. Players could always make a sacrifice by having one player feign a flank and when the boss attacks the group circles around the other way. And just like that, you have a greater level of strategic depth.

They already use mechanics like having adds or bosses with more then one entity or things like aggro drops and tank switches etc. etc. that accompish the EXACT same thing that you are asking for.

You HAVE to make it partially predictable, at least, because unfortunately most players probably couldn't keep up and things would be far TOO challenging if it was predictable and something you could learn. 

What I'm talking about is a feedback loop between the raid group and boss. The boss reacts to the group which in turn reacts to the boss. The boss's reactions will fall into a handful of behaviors that are directed according to the group position, state and composition. The players will be able to learn how the boss reacts to given situations and therefore the boss will be predictable but not so much so that the players can just macro it to death.

Unless you play for a world class guild like Ensidia, raid bosses and stuff are usually hard enough as is due to gear requirements and "the dance" being so intricate and with little room for mistakes and no cushion for failure.

Unless you are telling me you can do any raid boss in WoW, EQ, etc. without looking up strategies on the first try, then yeah it's already challenging enough!

The thing is that you're looking at things from the EQ / WoW perspective. Rather than retool and already broken system, why not think of how this could work from the ground up or top down?

If you improve the AI then you can also make the bosses less deadly so the encounter does not necessarily become any harder.

Making the bosses less predictable simply moves the emphasis away from pre-learned strategies and increases the need for player awareness and ability to react as a team to differing circumstances. This would give raid bosses much greater replay value and shift raiding in favour of players with skill rather than gear.

Of course you need to still give players the mechanics to employ some kind of strategy. The problem with the taunt/aggro mechanic is not that it exists but that it is so overpowered: It not only determines who a boss hits, it determines where it stands and, in many cases, where it uses it's AoE attacks.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe 

Or you can group you healers close enough that they can support one another. You can also have wizards cast invisibility spells on the healers so that the boss can't see them. Or you could just keep tanks close by and have the healers scatter when the boss gets too close. Giving healers a teleport spell or making the boss's movement rate slower than the healers would cancel this out pretty quickly.

Actually, I was thinking that the boss would just move and / or attack the edges of the group so that the raid group has to stay on one side. Players could always make a sacrifice by having one player feign a flank and when the boss attacks the group circles around the other way. And just like that, you have a greater level of strategic depth.

What I'm talking about is a feedback loop between the raid group and boss. The boss reacts to the group which in turn reacts to the boss. The boss's reactions will fall into a handful of behaviors that are directed according to the group position, state and composition. The players will be able to learn how the boss reacts to given situations and therefore the boss will be predictable but not so much so that the players can just macro it to death.

The thing is that you're looking at things from the EQ / WoW perspective. Rather than retool and already broken system, why not think of how this could work from the ground up or top down?

See I read this and I read your examples I can think of fights or tactics in raid boss fights in WoW that are exactly like that or similar.

Healers being closer = range of spell casting and how far AoE heals can jump etc. etc.
Invis spells cast on players = actual spell Invisibility or on-demand threat reduction abilities by multiple classes
tank close healers scatter = AoE or conal damage effects of a certain range forcing players to spread out or check distances
slow moving bosses or teleports = again kiting strategies and fights and aggro-reductions and fast movement spells
boss edges/attacking one side = again cleave and AoE/conal effects
one playing sacrifice feign flank = targetted abilities requiring cooldown to save the sacrifice or AoE the tank has to "eat" so everyone else get's out of range

How is this all not exactly what you are talking about? 

"The boss reacts to the group which in turn reacts to the boss. The boss's reactions will fall into a handful of behaviors that are directed according to the group position, state and composition. The players will be able to learn how the boss reacts to given situations and therefore the boss will be predictable but not so much so that the players can just macro it to death."

Yep, that's exactly how Raids are in WoW to be honest.

There is NO macro or raid mod that will move your character for you out of AoE effects. They can tell you when things are coming and if you are targetted or in the area of effect but you still have to move and react or whatever ALLLLLLLLLL on your own.

So again, what are you proposing that is actually different?

Sure the bosses doesn't know that you are a Warrior tank instead of a Paladin, but if it did it'd be even WORSE and more predictable because if the boss reacted differently to each you could plan that out for strategy even more.

It doesn't actually know if you are the tank or not, it just knows if you have the highest threat it's up to YOU to build and maintain that threat.

I just don't see your point, all that you say I do every day raiding in WoW (well I don't raid every day anymore but you know what I mean)

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe 

If you were dealing with a true real-time system it would be too much. With MMORPGs, you're dealing with a system that processes everything in batches. We refer to this as a "tic" based system. Every time the server goes through one game loop it equals a tic. Usually this takes close to one second. So MMORPGs are really just turn based games where many turns are taken care of automatically. It's kind of like the "kill" command in most MUDs.

Tics in instances, where most raids take place, can actually be shorter but that depends on how the server cluster manages instances. If you have a machined dedicated to running running multiple instances of the same... instance then processing can actually be much faster than on open world server.

Think of instances like tables in Yahoo Poker. While one machine may be running multiple tables, each table is actually an instance of a dedicated Poker server. The advantage here is that the server knows how many players can be in each dedicated instance and sets a timer for each players turn. Since we know the number of players and the amount of time between each action, that gives the server time process game logic. MMORPGs have a shorter timer, but it's the same basic principle.

If you want to get a better handle on how these games work under the hood, go check out The CircleMUD codebase or just look get the source for a UO or Lineage 2 server emulator. When I started looking into the coding of these things I was absolutely shocked at how small the actual code was and how much of the process was really just database scripting.

 

Very interesting.

Two types of people... well not really, more like a sliding scale with two extremes.

One extreme wants gear progression.

The other extreme wants gear progression too.

Except the first group wants progression for their character compared to how their character used to be.

The second group wants gear progression so their character is better than other people's.

So, me, I like to start as a scabby peasant in rags with a s****y stick as my only weapon getting owned by mangy rats and then gradually progress to where I look like one of the lead characters in a Conan film. I don't care at all about being max level. As long as I'm progressing my char in some way I'm happy.

The other extreme are constantly comparing themselves with other players and so initially they hate not being max level because other players are higher level than them so they race to be max level. Then when they get to max level they have to differentiate themselves with gear.

Initially raiding was an accident. A lot of players hit max level in a game so the designers needed something for them to do and came up with the raid progression idea but because "endgame" raiding ties in very neatly with a particular psychological niche it has become a monster that eats MMORPGs.

I want a game with no endgame. Where the only "endgame" is a "Hall of Fame" button and when you get to max level you can mess around for a while but eventually you click the button and the game's website has a "Hall of Fame" section and a page for your char gets created with a screenshot and a Magelo type page for all your uber lootz and that's that. You wave goodbye to your little pixel hero/heroine as they get deleted from the database and you start again.

Originally posted by johnspartan

riginally posted by Jimmy_Scythe 

 

See I read this and I read your examples I can think of fights or tactics in raid boss fights in WoW that are exactly like that or similar.

Healers being closer = range of spell casting and how far AoE heals can jump etc. etc.
Invis spells cast on players = actual spell Invisibility or on-demand threat reduction abilities by multiple classes
tank close healers scatter = AoE or conal damage effects of a certain range forcing players to spread out or check distances
slow moving bosses or teleports = again kiting strategies and fights and aggro-reductions and fast movement spells
boss edges/attacking one side = again cleave and AoE/conal effects
one playing sacrifice feign flank = targetted abilities requiring cooldown to save the sacrifice or AoE the tank has to "eat" so everyone else get's out of range

How is this all not exactly what you are talking about? 

"The boss reacts to the group which in turn reacts to the boss. The boss's reactions will fall into a handful of behaviors that are directed according to the group position, state and composition. The players will be able to learn how the boss reacts to given situations and therefore the boss will be predictable but not so much so that the players can just macro it to death."

Yep, that's exactly how Raids are in WoW to be honest.

There is NO macro or raid mod that will move your character for you out of AoE effects. They can tell you when things are coming and if you are targetted or in the area of effect but you still have to move and react or whatever ALLLLLLLLLL on your own.

So again, what are you proposing that is actually different?

Sure the bosses doesn't know that you are a Warrior tank instead of a Paladin, but if it did it'd be even WORSE and more predictable because if the boss reacted differently to each you could plan that out for strategy even more.

It doesn't actually know if you are the tank or not, it just knows if you have the highest threat it's up to YOU to build and maintain that threat.

I just don't see your point, all that you say I do every day raiding in WoW (well I don't raid every day anymore but you know what I mean)

I highlighted that part because I find it odd that you protest deeper strategy and flexible planning.

let me clarify: There is a difference between manipulating a boss according to it's behavior patterns and controlling a boss outright through agro. The former requires quick thinking and occasional burst of creativity while the latter is just manipulating numbers on a spreadsheet. Is it any wonder why most people find raiding about as much fun as filing their taxes?

To give you a better idea of what I'm talking about, let's compare some raid bosses to multiplayer RPG bosses.

First the raid bosses:

Lineage 2 Vermillion Tree

Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Arcon Travix

Final Fantasy XI Cerebus

notice how stationary the bosses are. They just king of stand in one places pantomiming the same attack animation over and over. There isn't a whole lot happening on the player's end either. Aside from rote memorization and some basic math that is...

Now Let's look at some Multiplayer RPG bosses:

Monster Hunter Portable 2nd G Volganos

Phantasy Star online Final boss Part 1

Phantasy star online Final boss part 2

Diablo 2 Baal

Notice the difference? Unlike the raid bosses, which just stood in one place while the raid group wailed on them, the Multiplayer bosses are actually mobile and varied. With these bosses you have to be much more alert and aware of what's going on because the boss isn't going to just stand still spamming the same attack on the same target all the time. If you can pull off this level of AI behavior on something as primitive as a Dreamcast, there is no reason why you couldn't pull it off on a multi-processor server cluster.

Still seen fights just as complex and mobile as those you posted. Moving bosses, bosses you have to kite, encounters that kite you... I've seen it all in WoW.

Is there really a difference between a boss having to be mobile versus the players? 

I am not protesting an even deeper strategy, I'm just saying that WoW doesn't make the boss differentiate by class because it creates situations where you can't "just" have a Tank, you have to have a Warrior Tank or Death Knight Tank which is against their design philosophy of "bring the player not the class."

Many fights USED to have stuff like this, like only Druids could tank Brutalis or hell in Vanilla WoW only Warriors could really tank anything.

It's all just manipulating numbers on a spreadsheet in the end dude. It's code, it's all numbers. Even in single player or standard multiplayer boss fights, they all run off of numbers i.e. code and if it's a RPG it's all just spreadsheet comparisons anyway. Your dodge versus their hit rating, etc.

And you are 100% wrong that "most" people find raiding as fun as doing their taxes. Many here on this site might not like raiding, but this represents a very very small subset of the MMO community, maybe 1% of 1% but in the "real" MMO community, in games like EQ2 and Lotro and WoW that feature heavy raiding, most people who hit the level cap raid or at least try to raid.

I still see hundres of people every night raiding on my server, and there are literally millions raiding every night. And that is just in WoW!

See you say "With these bosses you have to be much more alert and aware of what's going on because the boss isn't going to just stand still spamming the same attack on the same target all the time."

But that's all you can see from a video on Youtube.

Want to know what is going on under the hood? 

I'll run a "simple" boss fight in WoW for you.

Main Tank
-Running their maximum rotation for threat production and watching their threat and the threat of every other player in the raid like a hawk. At least with my Warrior, can't be macro'd because it's a priority system not a standard rotation, have to pay attention to procs.
-They are positioning the mob/boss, making sure to keep in mind AoE effects as well as conal attacks in either front, back, or both directions so DPS can get into position.
-Reacting to boss abilities and anticipating timers, and using there own cooldowns and potions/trinkets to counter heavy periods of damage, effects like fears/stuns, silences, etc.
-Monitoring the mana levels of their healers, the position and output of their DPS, and the location of off-tanks and boss "adds" just in case they have to pick something else up if an off-tank goes down.

.. and I'm probably forgetting a few but that is JUST the main tank.

This post would go into way too much detail and take way too long, but I could explain to you what healers and DPS players are doing in your "average" easy boss fight and it'll all so complicated and intricate.. you shouldn't take it for granted as being "easy" or "boring".

Gone are the days (mostly) of standing in one place and spamming a single button. Bad raiders do that.

You should watch a fight like Sartharion +3 Drakes from the perspective of one of the add tanks or drake tanks. Or watch a healer in a fight with tons of raid-wide damage like Hodir. Or watch a DPS player in a fight like General Vezax.

Sure, I could also find you examples of tank + spank fights. And I could find you old school fights like Razorgore or Chromaggus (back at 60 obviously) where the entire fight is about kiting and aggro switching etc. etc. it's some seriously complex sh!t.

I think you just haven't experienced it, haven't done it, and just go off what other players have said on forums. If I'm wrong I appologize, but maybe you've only heard or seen the perspective of a DPS class on an "easy" fight with very little movement or target switching, ability usage etc.

Originally posted by johnspartan

Still seen fights just as complex and mobile as those you posted. Moving bosses, bosses you have to kite, encounters that kite you... I've seen it all in WoW.

Is there really a difference between a boss having to be mobile versus the players? 

Actually there is. The boss moving and attacking a different target breaks the rhythm. Every time the boss moves or attacks someone else, you have to scramble and get back into the flow. The boss should still telegraph it's intention to move though. This changes the game from a very dull game of Simon, actually less since the sequence of hotkeys you hit never changes, into a more dynamic game about timing and quick adjustments.

I am not protesting an even deeper strategy, I'm just saying that WoW doesn't make the boss differentiate by class because it creates situations where you can't "just" have a Tank, you have to have a Warrior Tank or Death Knight Tank which is against their design philosophy of "bring the player not the class."

Again, I'm not trying to rebuild WoW. It does what it does for a reason. Albeit a very unethical reason, it is a reason nontheless. Let's also keep in mind that raiding is not exclusive to WoW. Raiding was around before WoW and it has been implimented in other games after WoW.

My goal is to examine the concept of the raid and see how to make it more entertaining to the player rather than more profitable for the developers. That means that I have to ditch a lot of the skinner box aspects and focus on the act of raiding itself.

Many fights USED to have stuff like this, like only Druids could tank Brutalis or hell in Vanilla WoW only Warriors could really tank anything.

It's all just manipulating numbers on a spreadsheet in the end dude. It's code, it's all numbers. Even in single player or standard multiplayer boss fights, they all run off of numbers i.e. code and if it's a RPG it's all just spreadsheet comparisons anyway. Your dodge versus their hit rating, etc.

Yes, it is all just manipulating numbers. But when you're manipulating the same numbers IN THE SAME WAY all the time, it stops being a game and turns into an assembly line. The best example I can think of is Dragon Warrior VIII. It's about as traditional as JRPGs get and yet the battles in the game could be real nail biters. It was not uncommon to go into a standard random encounter and find yourself still fighting after twenty or thirty minues. Why? Because even the random mobs prioritized targets and spotted patterns in the player's actions. Combat in DWVIII was pure number crunching but it required you to think on your toes because the mobs would spot the character that was central to your strategy and begin attacking it. If you changed strategies to adjust to the loss of a character or because the AI had begun attacking your healer / nuker / one hitter / etc. the AI would also adjust.

With agro manipulation, this kind of thing just doesn't happen.

And you are 100% wrong that "most" people find raiding as fun as doing their taxes. Many here on this site might not like raiding, but this represents a very very small subset of the MMO community, maybe 1% of 1% but in the "real" MMO community, in games like EQ2 and Lotro and WoW that feature heavy raiding, most people who hit the level cap raid or at least try to raid.

I'm afraid you are very wrong here. Less than 10% of MMORPG players ever see raid content. It gets discussed periodically at places like Terra Nova and Gamasutra. It also isn't just confined to MMORPGs. Most developers have a major gripe with spending huge amounts of hours on content that most players won't even bother to get to.

I also see a hint of eletism here since you make the distinction between "real" gamers, those who raid, and everyone else. This is an informal fallacy.

I still see hundres of people every night raiding on my server, and there are literally millions raiding every night. And that is just in WoW!

I see hundreds of people every day in my home town. There are literally millions of people living in my home town. That doesn't mean that the majority of the people in the Unites States live in my home town. Hell, that doesn't even mean that the majority of people in the United States live in major cities.

See you say "With these bosses you have to be much more alert and aware of what's going on because the boss isn't going to just stand still spamming the same attack on the same target all the time."

But that's all you can see from a video on Youtube.

Want to know what is going on under the hood? 

I'll run a "simple" boss fight in WoW for you....

Again, you like raiding as it and that's fine. Most people do not. And many people who do raid would be doing something else if it wasn't for the reward. You are not right and they are not wrong. You simply have different tastes.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Again, you like raiding as it and that's fine. Most people do not. And many people who do raid would be doing something else if it wasn't for the reward. You are not right and they are not wrong. You simply have different tastes.

I agree with you there of course Jimmy, I am very much enjoying our back and forth debate.

But I think you are getting off topic.

You talk about complexity and the enemy reacting to the players actions and the players thus having to react to the enemy and I am trying to tell you that this is how raiding works. You can't look at it from the perspective of a single player or a single role as you HAVE to when watching a Youtube video. There is SO much more going on.

On the surface, yes it's a game of aggro management and numbers. Healing those who need healed, DPSing those who need to be damaged, tanking those that need to be tanked.

But it's what's under the hood, the complexities of every class and spec and the little details in a fight coming together and the coordination of it that brings the dynamic beyond the simple "push and kill" and into something that is really involving and requires talent, planning, and precise execution.

I'm not just a MMO gamer, I love single player RPG's and action games like the Zelda series (which I think has the best boss fights EVER of any games, period) and I know exactly what type and kind of boss fights you are talking about and what you are so eloquently describing...

But I tell you I see those kinds of fights and encounters every day in small-group dungeon and especially raid encounters in WoW. I have not raided in EQ or any other MMO, WoW is my first Raiding MMO, certainly not my first MMO lol but first one where I have raided and do raid.

I'd match the over-all complexity and challenge and fun that 10-25 people have to execute in a WoW raid to the over-all complexity and challenge and fun of a boss fight in a single player RPG or action game like Zelda.

If anything, the raid in WoW is MORE complex and challenging because you are NOT just relying on yourself, but also on 4-9-24-39 others to do their job as skillfully as you are doing yours.

Most raiders are so narrowly focused they don't understand the relationship between the roles and how deep it really goes.

I don't raid now because I  have 2 kids a wife, job, go to college and I am active in my community. I quit raiding a couple years before this because the people I ran into took the game way too seriously and treated it like a second job. The final straw was when a I told a the raid group I could not go because my kids wanted me and they had to nerve to say just lock them in their room and get your priorities straight. What functional adult with a family can justify spending 3-4 hours a night several days a week. They really need to give people with real lives more they can accomplish over many periods of play.