Originally posted by Cephus404

You have to remember that "here" means nothing.  4000 people is diddly squat in the scheme of things.  I do find it funny that you keep referring to "pvp focus" when most people actually just want it included, usually consentually.  It's like people who want both grouping and soloing in a game.  I think there should be both PvP and PvE in a game, the people who want to do one ought to be able to, the people who don't want to participate shouldn't be forced to.  It's called freedom of choice. 

"Here' is a small sampling of people with an opinion. It means something. It doesn't incorporate all but "HERE" has validity to the argument.

If you look at the post I quoted as well you'd read that Iron  had said PvP'rs are in the minority. It didn't say people who only pvp in arenas, bgs, full time or part time. If you participate in any type of pvp you are a pvp'r.  I used the small sample "HERE" to show that people "HERE" that want pvp, in any form or concept, or are pvpers, are actually in the majority.

I did not definitively say over every game they were in the majority, only in the sample "HERE"

What I did also do, is add to that sample by stating the obvious trend of companies adding more and more pvp experiences to games, even the biggest US game WoW.  Although there is no actual compilation of data or census taking which would give us definitive numbers, the trend is showing that either pvp'rs as a group are growing daily or they are in the majority. To which either is the correct comment would be a guess as would it be to say pvp'rs are definitively in the minority.

edit: The highlighted comment is all about the freedom of choice when you BUY a game, accept the EULA, and login. If you mean preferences of pvp and pve zone mixing, being seperate, well that's part of the decision making process when purchasing the game. Does it have the controls,settings, design, to make you happy. Which the whole people have freedom of choice comment has nothing to do with who is in the majority right now pvp'rs or pve'rs.

Originally posted by Greenie

"Here' is a small sampling of people with an opinion. It means something. It doesn't incorporate all but "HERE" has validity to the argument.

"Here" is a small sampling of opinionated people, the overwhelming majority of MMO players do not and would not seek out a forum to sit around and complain on.  What happens on MMORPG.com is not representative of the MMO playerbase as a whole.

If you look at the post I quoted as well you'd read that Iron  had said PvP'rs are in the minority. It didn't say people who only pvp in arenas, bgs, full time or part time. If you participate in any type of pvp you are a pvp'r.  I used the small sample "HERE" to show that people "HERE" that want pvp, or are pvpers, are actually in the majority.;

But that gets silly when you think about it.  So anyone who has ever soloed any content in a game is a soloer, anyone who has ever been in a group is a grouper, anyone who has ever been in a raid is a raider, anyone who has ever crafted is a crafter... those words lose all meaning if you do it that way.

I did not definitively say over every game they were in the majority, only in the sample "HERE"

While I don't know exactly which polls you were referring to, from the wording in your post you made it sound like people wanted PvP to be allowed in the game, not that they would necessarily participate.  I think all kinds of things that I would never do myself ought to be in games, just to give people who find them interesting something to do.

What I did also do, is add to that sample by stating the obvious trend of companies adding more and more pvp experiences to games, even the biggest US game WoW.  Although there is no actual compilation of data or census taking which would give us definitive numbers, the trend is showing that either pvp'rs as a group are growing daily or they are in the majority. To which either is the correct comment would be a guess as would it be to say pvp'rs are definitively in the minority.

Then you'd need to separate that into people who participate in PvP primarily or almost exclusively vs. people who might occasionally do it if the urge strikes.  I'd say that the first group is most certainly in a tiny minority, the second, since lots of things can be considered PvP, may indeed be in the majority.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Greenie

"

"Here" is a small sampling of opinionated people, the overwhelming majority of MMO players do not and would not seek out a forum to sit around and complain on.  What happens on MMORPG.com is not representative of the MMO playerbase as a whole.

Just because people are not on a forum doesn't mean they do not have an opinion. Only if you actualy asked them could you learn what their opinion was. So until you actually get them, all you can do is sample the people who do voice their opinion. Which still only provides a sample of the playerbase not actual all encompassing numbers or attitudes. Sampling is still a valid start to learning what a group of people are thinking,prefer, want, and can provide you with valuable information about trends. The sample is still valid and means SOMETHING.

But that gets silly when you think about it.  So anyone who has ever soloed any content in a game is a soloer, anyone who has ever been in a group is a grouper, anyone who has ever been in a raid is a raider, anyone who has ever crafted is a crafter... those words lose all meaning if you do it that way.

Maybe that's what we need is to lose those terms quite honestly. But my point more was, people who engage in pvp at some point (meaning a regular or even sporadic basis) probably outnumber people who don't, based on that sample on this site. And due to that, Iron's comments that pvp'rs are in the minority may not be necessarily correct.

While I don't know exactly which polls you were referring to, from the wording in your post you made it sound like people wanted PvP to be allowed in the game, not that they would necessarily participate.  I think all kinds of things that I would never do myself ought to be in games, just to give people who find them interesting something to do.

The poll shows what people think the focus should be on in a game. With a majority of people saying it should be pvp focused or 50/50 you can summize that those people do in fact pvp. IF they didn't they would not want a majority or equal level of resources, development time/costs taking away from the style of play they have and be utilized on an aspect of the game they will never touch.

Then you'd need to separate that into people who participate in PvP primarily or almost exclusively vs. people who might occasionally do it if the urge strikes.  I'd say that the first group is most certainly in a tiny minority, the second, since lots of things can be considered PvP, may indeed be in the majority.

No I really don't have to say that because my comments were directed and based solely upon Iron's where he says PvP'rs are in the minority. He did not make a distinction of hardcore pvp'rs, casual pvp'rs, grouping pvp'rs or solo pvp'rs  and hence there is no need for me to make any distinction of that either.

You are adding in new stipulations and parameters that were not present in the original debate. Your comments are different than his because of this. Now if you were to ask me: "Do you think that in the group of pvp'rs there are more full time hardcore pvp'rs or people who prefer to engage in it on the basis of their moods in a more casual nature?"  I would have said I do in fact think there are less hardcores out there.  Do you see the difference in your question and his and how my responses are directly related to the particular questions asked?

 

At one time a few years ago, my sole game content was PvP.  I'd PvE occasionally, but not for long if I could help it.

During my couple of years where all I ever did was PvP, it was my experience that PvP does have a tendency to bring out the very worst in a lot of people.  For my own part, I am the type of person who will just walk away when the crap talking starts.  I don't engage in it, I don't find it "fun" at all, and it really bothers me to see people on a PvP battlefield launch personal attacks against a player (actually, that bothers me whether it takes place in PvP, PvE, on forums, or anywhere else).  Unfortunately, nearly every PvPer I know (rather, those whose sole gameplay content is PvP or whose gaming worlds revolve around PvP) feels the need to smack talk, launch personal attacks against other players both in-game and on forums, and is just generally not the kind of person I choose to be around: I prefer to be around respectful and mature people who realize that it is a game - it is not a black mark against your personal character if player "a" whoops your butt in PvP...and no, they are generally not hacking in order to do it.

So I guess my thoughts on the subject are that I am trying to "understand you PvP guys (girls)."  What is it about PvP and the desire to succeed at PvP (a worthy goal if that's what you are in to) that turns otherwise rational, mature, respectful and respectable people into complete and utter jerks?

Originally posted by Nifa

At one time a few years ago, my sole game content was PvP.  I'd PvE occasionally, but not for long if I could help it.

During my couple of years where all I ever did was PvP, it was my experience that PvP does have a tendency to bring out the very worst in a lot of people.  For my own part, I am the type of person who will just walk away when the crap talking starts.  I don't engage in it, I don't find it "fun" at all, and it really bothers me to see people on a PvP battlefield launch personal attacks against a player (actually, that bothers me whether it takes place in PvP, PvE, on forums, or anywhere else).  Unfortunately, nearly every PvPer I know (rather, those whose sole gameplay content is PvP or whose gaming worlds revolve around PvP) feels the need to smack talk, launch personal attacks against other players both in-game and on forums, and is just generally not the kind of person I choose to be around: I prefer to be around respectful and mature people who realize that it is a game - it is not a black mark against your personal character if player "a" whoops your butt in PvP...and no, they are generally not hacking in order to do it.

So I guess my thoughts on the subject are that I am trying to "understand you PvP guys (girls)."  What is it about PvP and the desire to succeed at PvP (a worthy goal if that's what you are in to) that turns otherwise rational, mature, respectful and respectable people into complete and utter jerks?

It's not just related to pvp but here my answer right or wrong: 

 Competition, Losing, Failure, Frustration, Disrespect, Ignorance, Being disrespected, Differing personalities, people having different goals, and more reason than I care to think of right now.

But, I also can say from my experience that there are people who take criticism poorly. I know this because when I was a kid I was like that. I also know that I've criticized people poorly unintentionally, and sometimes people have taken my criticism poorly. That plays as much of a factor in the arguments and trash talk as anything else. Some people just cannot be told what to do, that they're not doing something well, or that there is a better way to do something.

Trash-talking is a mixed bag, Some of it is fun between friends or it's just a provocation or challenge for someone to keep coming back to try and beat you, some of it is just simply a bunch of jerks mouthing off.

It is funny though when you say personal attacks on the forums,, because like I've stated consistently throughout this thread, the only people who have been throwing out personal atttacks and insults on these forums are people who dislike pvp.

Pot meet kettle????

Also, I keep looking for the two videos of the wow tourney's where you have one guy in each video freaking out. The tourney is ultra competitive with money on the line. Notice that when these guys freak out, the other hardcore pvp players are either looking at them like they're a dumbass, embarassed for the guy, or trying to calm them down.

If the majority of pvp'rs are assholes as you anti'pvprs state, then how come the numbers aren't reversed? How come it's not 8 people freaking out and only 1 person trying to calm them down.

Could you possibly be wrong, oversensitive, had a bad group of people around you, a few bad experiences that resonated with you more than others, or just simply bigoted? 

Because in my experience you always will have one or two people who are just total jerks or bitches in a situation.You will always have at least one person who is oversenstive and undermatured when dealing with criticims. But the majority of people in every situation really just want to get along and have fun.

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by Nifa

At one time a few years ago, my sole game content was PvP.  I'd PvE occasionally, but not for long if I could help it.

During my couple of years where all I ever did was PvP, it was my experience that PvP does have a tendency to bring out the very worst in a lot of people.  For my own part, I am the type of person who will just walk away when the crap talking starts.  I don't engage in it, I don't find it "fun" at all, and it really bothers me to see people on a PvP battlefield launch personal attacks against a player (actually, that bothers me whether it takes place in PvP, PvE, on forums, or anywhere else).  Unfortunately, nearly every PvPer I know (rather, those whose sole gameplay content is PvP or whose gaming worlds revolve around PvP) feels the need to smack talk, launch personal attacks against other players both in-game and on forums, and is just generally not the kind of person I choose to be around: I prefer to be around respectful and mature people who realize that it is a game - it is not a black mark against your personal character if player "a" whoops your butt in PvP...and no, they are generally not hacking in order to do it.

So I guess my thoughts on the subject are that I am trying to "understand you PvP guys (girls)."  What is it about PvP and the desire to succeed at PvP (a worthy goal if that's what you are in to) that turns otherwise rational, mature, respectful and respectable people into complete and utter jerks?

 

It's not just related to pvp but here my answer right or wrong: 

 Competition, Losing, Failure, Frustration, Disrespect, Ignorance, Being disrespected, Differing personalities, people having different goals, and more reason than I care to think of right now.

But, I also can say from my experience that there are people who take criticism poorly. I know this because when I was a kid I was like that. I also know that I've criticized people poorly unintentionally, and sometimes people have taken my criticism poorly. That plays as much of a factor in the arguments and trash talk as anything else. Some people just cannot be told what to do, that they're not doing something well, or that there is a better way to do something.

Trash-talking is a mixed bag, Some of it is fun between friends or it's just a provocation or challenge for someone to keep coming back to try and beat you, some of it is just simply a bunch of jerks mouthing off.

It is funny though when you say personal attacks on the forums,, because like I've stated consistently throughout this thread, the only people who have been throwing out personal atttacks and insults on these forums are people who dislike pvp.

Pot meet kettle????

Good points on many counts.

I guess the reason I don't understand the issue with taking (properly phrased) criticism well is because - again, speaking only for myself here - if someone has a valid point regarding how I can improve, I'm eager to hear it.  Even in games that I have played for a very long time, I always find that there is something I can learn to improve, and if someone offers that help, I will happily take it.

I can understand smack talking between friends and competition between friends - perhaps I should have used a narrower "brush" in my generalizations.  Even today in PvP situations, if my friends and I are on opposing sides, we will actively seek one another out - sure, there can be a little ribbing here and there, but in my experience, usually we will also learn something that helps us against other players as well.  For instance, there was one player of the opposing faction that used to crush me every time we met.  I hated the guy, lol.  Finally, though, I went to him and asked for his thoughts on how I could improve.  I took what he was willing to teach me and later kicked his butt, which we both later laughed about. :D

As far as personal attacks, I can't speak for others.  I can only say that they're not my cup of tea.  The guy/gal who chooses to PvP for ten hours a week will, necessarily, be better than me at it - particularly if that is the only part of the game they are interested in.  A player who has more than ten hours per week will, quite obviously (at least to me), be better than me at PvP, PvE, raiding, crafting - pick a skill set.  The fact that, as a retired disabled veteran, I have more than ten hours a week to play a game and continue to improve my skills in no way means that I have no life or am a basement-dweller living off of my parents; it simply means that my circumstances are quite different than the guy/gal who works 40 hours or more a week and has to take care of his/her wife/husband and kids.  Personally, I would like to see people understand and acknowledge that not everyone has the same freedoms or limitations to their time and understand that the person who is able to devote more time to a game - for whatever reason - will, quite definitively, be more skilled, better geared, etc than a player who has a few hours per week on a Saturday to play, but it also seems to me that supposing that someone can overcome stereotypes and stigmas just because I would like them to would be somewhat arrogant of me because I do not know the personal situations and circumstances of the vast majority of folks out there.  ;)

Originally posted by Nifa

Personally, I would like to see people understand and acknowledge that not everyone has the same freedoms or limitations to their time and understand that the person who is able to devote more time to a game - for whatever reason - will, quite definitively, be more skilled, better geared, etc than a player who has a few hours per week on a Saturday to play,

Although I agree that 90%, random percentage pulled from my butt just to illustrate a point, of players will be better skilled with time played, there are still those select few who just seem to get "it".  Just like in any hobby, sport, there seem to be people who just excel at something despite putting very little effort into it. This is why I love the zerg. Because it's beneficial for players who don't have that time. The only problem I've seen, is a lot of zergers use this as an excuse to not try to learn more or be better. I used to be a zerger and sometimes it is fun to watch your whole army clear out a zone, but that's not fun when you account for population imbalances. After playing with some good groups of people I am much more in favor of the small group combat such as 1 group vs another group or 2 groups vs 2 groups.   I really love the 1 group vs zerg,, but I'm rambling now sorry. 

 

but it also seems to me that supposing that someone can overcome stereotypes and stigmas just because I would like them to would be somewhat arrogant of me because I do not know the personal situations and circumstances of the vast majority of folks out there.  ;)

Of all the things I've read your highlighted comment is the one I agree with most, not you being arrogant, but  PVP'rs are subjected to some of the worst stereotypes and stigmas in the gaming community. Well, them and some roleplayers lol.

I don't know if this has been said because I'm not going to read through 2 pages of essays. Some people, for some reason, feel the need to write 5 paragraphs just to say "I disagree."

I don't like PvP because it's not real. What I mean is that there's little to no skill involved. Every game I've ever PvPed in, or seen someone PvP in was all the same. "F5 F5 F5 F6 F7 F6 F5 F7 F5 F4 Oh no I'm low on health, HEAL! F5 F6 F5 F7 F6 so on and so forth." In most games your character auto-targets, so no skill needed there.

All you need is a high level to have strong spells/weapons, good armor and the right F5-F6-F7 combo. PvP in MMOs is garbage.

i happen to injoy both pvp and pve ... because they grant 2 entirely differnt elements in the game... pve is prolly the one i like the most simply because when i group with my friends it brings back the old feeling from PnP where it is you and your group against the odds... most mobs are simply that... they have numbers and act a preset way... face is a wolf is a wolf overall they act and behave the same.. .there may be a rare instance where one is alittle smarter but its not gonna pull something out of its butt ...  i also love PVP because you never know what your opponet is gonna do and that brings a whole new thrill to the game.. but that feeling of you and your group against the odds isnt there... if your outnumbered its not about skill .. cuz face if .. if you dont pull something out of your butt there simple numbers win.. .and there is NOTHING i hate worse then the guy who waits till your in the middle of a fight.. or already 80% dead.. then ganks ya butt to steal the stuff you worked for... and the sad truth it... those childish little gankers far outnumber those of us who have honor and want to see who is best.... ya have pride when you win a pvp fight and you got that trophey for it... dont mater if it armor.. a sword.. his head... the reward really dosnt matter cuz you have pride in the fact that you beat them straight up... where if you one shot someone wile they are already fighting a mob that has a good chance of killing them without you just cuz you can.. theres no pride and bragging rights to that... sure ya run around saying i killed so n so... and i got this off his body... but face it there is no pride there... ya ganked someone like any 2 bit fool can do when there was no risk involved... sorry thats not for me... so untill they come out with something to open peoples eyes and put pvp where it should be... ill take my pride in shormaning that uber pve raid that it took you 20 men to do... and i can honestly say i didnt it with 10 or 12 ... and i have that feeling of pride back that i acually acomplished somthing worthwile....

Just my opion you can take it or leave it... I really dont care...

www.youtube.com/watch 

A video of two elite guilds pretty evenly matched for all accounts in terms of level, gear, realm rank, going at it in DaoC  in an 8 vs 8 battle.  a 5 MInute batttel showcasing that you need to assist well, pan cameras, kite, heal, and what average pvp's don't seem to get the extension and pushing of groups when it is needed. And if youre using auto target you're making a huge mistake. It helps but you cannot use it exclusively.

Even though Bedlam lost this fight, I"d bet my left nut that you could take your 8 players at realm rank 5 in top gear with them at realm rank 2 and the second best gear and they'd still wipe the floor with you. Good teams work good together whether it's a FPS , sportsgame, or an MMO.

And the best thing about Bedlam?  They were some of the nicest gamers I've met. They did their thing but when the realm really  needed their help for defense they always answered the call.

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

I don't know if this has been said because I'm not going to read through 2 pages of essays. Some people, for some reason, feel the need to write 5 paragraphs just to say "I disagree."

 

I don't like PvP because it's not real. What I mean is that there's little to no skill involved. Every game I've ever PvPed in, or seen someone PvP in was all the same. "F5 F5 F5 F6 F7 F6 F5 F7 F5 F4 Oh no I'm low on health, HEAL! F5 F6 F5 F7 F6 so on and so forth." In most games your character auto-targets, so no skill needed there.

All you need is a high level to have strong spells/weapons, good armor and the right F5-F6-F7 combo. PvP in MMOs is garbage.

Let me first start off by saying my reply was more of a 1 on 1 PvP experience, like a duel. Not a guild vs. guild thing.

I'm also more than sure they'd defeat me for the simple fact that had you not told me it was DaoC, I'd have no clue as to what game I was just looking at. So yes, I'm sure they'd easily kill me.

But lets go back to my points. No matter what your roll is, it's still the same as spamming F5 F6 and F7. Are you a healer? Welp, you're roll is simple, watch your guild, stay alive and heal whoever needs it. Are you a tank? Welp, you're roll is simple. Protect the healers/weaker members by kiting and hit their tanks by doing what? Spamming F5 F6 and F7. That's my point. What's this no auto-target thing you speak of? I've never played a twitch MMO. The closest was clicking on players, or tabbing.

Can you do that in an FPS game? Sure if you never want to win. I've never seen a successful kite in an FPS, I'm not saying there isn't one, I've just never seen it. You also aren't going to tab over to me and snipe me out.

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

Let me first start off by saying my reply was more of a 1 on 1 PvP experience, like a duel. Not a guild vs. guild thing.

I'm also more than sure they'd defeat me for the simple fact that had you not told me it was DaoC, I'd have no clue as to what game I was just looking at. So yes, I'm sure they'd easily kill me.

But lets go back to my points. No matter what your roll is, it's still the same as spamming F5 F6 and F7. Are you a healer? Welp, you're roll is simple, watch your guild, stay alive and heal whoever needs it. Are you a tank? Welp, you're roll is simple. Protect the healers/weaker members by kiting and hit their tanks by doing what? Spamming F5 F6 and F7. That's my point. What's this no auto-target thing you speak of? I've never played a twitch MMO. The closest was clicking on players, or tabbing.

Can you do that in an FPS game? Sure if you never want to win. I've never seen a successful kite in an FPS, I'm not saying there isn't one, I've just never seen it. You also aren't going to tab over to me and snipe me out.

I misunderstood you on the auto-target for the tabbing through targets. I wasnt' thinking about FPS mechanics.

My point wasn't that they'd actualy beat you having never played the game. People played the game for years and still could not beat them. They'd jump from server to server starting from scratch and still be the dominant guild because they worked that well together.

Also in daoc the healer didn't just heal, there is an interrupt mechanic instead of setbacks like wow. if you got interrupted you had to stop and recast. healers cured disease, mez, poison. Healing classes we're also the crowd control classes with roots, mezzes, stuns.  Healer's were buffers. Buffs in that game were perma until you died, the healer died, or you were buff stripped. Which meant healers had to rebuff you if they died, you died, or someone stripped you, and generally you had at least 6 buffs on you when fighting from any one healer/buffer class.

Tanks and dps worked as units to assist train the other groups. But they would still need to peel people off their healers or casters if they couldn't be kited off. Tanks had to swtich an abilities gaurd and interecept depending who they were protecting and who was getting attacked.

Casters needed to kite beause of the interrupt code. Some casters had hot for heals , crowd control, heals, debuffs.

you also had items, potions, and realm abilities(which you earned through pvp ranks) to utilize and on the ToA servers you got master abilities.

Bottom line, even though the mechanics of an MMO are easy pushing a button, knowing what you need to do, which ability you pick, where you place yourself in the fight, your ability to choose targets, keep an eye out on your group, make use of your camera panning, and other strategies,,, you weren't going to be good because being good at that group pvp was a lot more than just spamming abilities.

When I want PVP I generally play exteel(third person shooter/online rpg) or a FPS(where skill trumps everything as long as hacking is controlled).  Why?  because these game types 3rd person/first person shooters are designed around pvp.  MMO's are not exactly what I call skill based pvp.

First PVP in most mmo's is simply a lvl thing, as in the higher lvl wins, or a class thing as in the OP'd class wins.  This is the problem there is rarely what I would consider a "good" fight in mmo's unless you refer to clan battles or sieges.  Before you start o he must suck at pvp,  I've pvp'd in most everything under the son and had a decent amount of success imo but the fact is even then it came down to better clan tatics for my side, or the fact we were better geared or high lvl etc.  

If you want "real" competition I just don't see mmo pvp as the best example.  I like mmo pvp but if I had to spend all my time in a mmo doing it I would likely not be plaing that mmo for long.  Honestly once you build your template and decide on a strat how hard is it to repeat that same pattern repeatedly.

I'll give that to you. But then this is probably why DaoC was hailed as one of the best MMOs ever, until some patch ruined it. Something along those lines, never played so I don't know.

But that doesn't make up for the rest of the MMOs with mind numbingly boring skillsets with generic abilities. Most MMOs I've played, if you were in combat, you pretty much could only heal and cure. You weren't going to do any crazy buffing because the battles would go too quickly.

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

I'll give that to you. But then this is probably why DaoC was hailed as one of the best MMOs ever, until some patch ruined it. Something along those lines, never played so I don't know.

But that doesn't make up for the rest of the MMOs with mind numbingly boring skillsets with generic abilities. Most MMOs I've played, if you were in combat, you pretty much could only heal and cure. You weren't going to do any crazy buffing because the battles would go too quickly.

Yea there are a lot of games with mind-numbing skillsets. There are a ton of mmo'swith crappy pvp which is why pvp'rs are clamoring for a game to come along and offer us something good. It's been done before it needs to be and can be done again.

Only problem is, with the emphasis of companies trying to get the casual player and add more and more solo content, pvp is going to be watered down as it stands now.

And to the poster above you who said FPS is the show of true skill if hacks are kept in check. You've also got to take into account lag, computer issues. Plus once you learn the maps, the good locations to snipe from hide behind or where the weapons drop(such as in halo as only ONE example) then really how hard is it ?

To say FPS or MMO pvp is better or more true than the other is a matter of taste and personal playstyle. They both have their strengths and weaknesses, and they're apples and oranges. Of course everything I base my opinion on is group pvp, solo duels are kind of crappy.

Originally posted by Greenie

www.youtube.com/watch 

A video of two elite guilds pretty evenly matched for all accounts in terms of level, gear, realm rank, going at it in DaoC  in an 8 vs 8 battle.  a 5 MInute batttel showcasing that you need to assist well, pan cameras, kite, heal, and what average pvp's don't seem to get the extension and pushing of groups when it is needed. And if youre using auto target you're making a huge mistake. It helps but you cannot use it exclusively.

Even though Bedlam lost this fight, I"d bet my left nut that you could take your 8 players at realm rank 5 in top gear with them at realm rank 2 and the second best gear and they'd still wipe the floor with you. Good teams work good together whether it's a FPS , sportsgame, or an MMO.

And the best thing about Bedlam?  They were some of the nicest gamers I've met. They did their thing but when the realm really  needed their help for defense they always answered the call.

I watched it and couldn't imagine having the slightest amount of fun doing it, sorry.  Looked utterly boring and pointless.

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

I'll give that to you. But then this is probably why DaoC was hailed as one of the best MMOs ever, until some patch ruined it. Something along those lines, never played so I don't know.

But that doesn't make up for the rest of the MMOs with mind numbingly boring skillsets with generic abilities. Most MMOs I've played, if you were in combat, you pretty much could only heal and cure. You weren't going to do any crazy buffing because the battles would go too quickly.

 

Yea there are a lot of games with mind-numbing skillsets. There are a ton of mmo'swith crappy pvp which is why pvp'rs are clamoring for a game to come along and offer us something good. It's been done before it needs to be and can be done again.

Only problem is, with the emphasis of companies trying to get the casual player and add more and more solo content, pvp is going to be watered down as it stands now.

 

And to the poster above you who said FPS is the show of true skill if hacks are kept in check. You've also got to take into account lag, computer issues. Plus once you learn the maps, the good locations to snipe from hide behind or where the weapons drop(such as in halo as only ONE example) then really how hard is it ?

To say FPS or MMO pvp is better or more true than the other is a matter of taste and personal playstyle. They both have their strengths and weaknesses, and they're apples and oranges. Of course everything I base my opinion on is group pvp, solo duels are kind of crappy.

I'm just making the point when you get down to most lvl base/item based/class based mmo's the number of variables for a winning formula become more a more limited and it really does feel like rock paper scissors often.  Am I saying pvp in mmo's takes zero skill no but its not brain surgery in most either.  FPS's are twiched based more and in good clan battles(I don't mean random fps matches I mean real battles between organized groups) can be one of the most rewarding team based experiences out there.  I actually enjoy pvp in mmo's I just never felt like a mmo could only be based around it and hold my attention over a long period of time.

Because pvp in most games is not even worth it. Such as wow... you get subpar gear to kill more players that lose nothing when they die, and you lose nothing if you die too. So what is the point? Now on EVE online when I go PVP stuff actually goes down... If my fleet fails then we lose our ships and can be PKd, if the other side/contender fails they lose the same.

Also I would like to point out one more thing. People refer to this as PVP now. No one refers to people who partake in this as PKers anymore. That in itself shows the change in the current day world of pvp (not PKing).

So I do not consider this "PVP" to be on par with PKing and I see them as two totally different things. Being one with casual carebear play and the other will a more challenging system in place that gives "true" rewards.

Originally posted by Toquio3

I dont like pvp because it brings out the worst in people. i like pve because its fun to kill monsters with your friends. and what is fun for one might not be for another. i think its fairly easy to understand.

But it doesn't have to allways bring out the worst in people, although it can.

One thing I like about PvP zones is that when you meet up with someone else they might attack you, but alot of times for me they haven't. Even if my character seem to be weaker.

And that's something you can't get in a PvE zone, you can't see the real intentions of that other player - in the PvP zone he/she has the freedom to express their feeling by attacking you or not attack you.

So to me it's just as much seeing who is your REAL friend, let's say when you loot something valuable does your companion attack you to get the loot or does he congratulate you and show himself as a real friend? In PvE you won't know.

So that to me is another aspect too, just because I like to play on PvP servers doesn't mean I have to PvP all the time, or that I HAVE to win all the PvP battles. Actually I'm not very competitive, although a decent PvP fight can kick in some adrenaline, I don't go to personal attacks or anything like that.

Most of the time I don't really initiate PvP battles, unless it's in a battleground - which I don'tlike btw, cause it's like a football match or something were you HAVE to fight, so the whole thing seems "staged".

So to me a PvP server just as much provide a opportunity to meet a "REAL" friend, or a friendly character anyway.

For me, I don't camp, I've actually tried to but I couldn't kill the guy more than 3 times before I got so bored with it, so I'm not a camper. It's usually against the rules anyway.

I guess I'm just looking for the most free mmo experience, but I see so many restrictions on things you wouldn't see in real life, yet we DO cope with these things in real life, so why not in a game community? I guess in a way I'm looking for an mmo that have the freedom of real life, but adds the mood of a certain era, like medieval or sci-fi, or that adds magic or spaceships or whatever extra to it.

That's why I think I look at PvP more as a challenge, or something to gain from, than a nuisance.

Of course the market just adapts to what people want, so if alot of  people want PvE then that's what they'll eventually get, I'm not questioning that. But when I bump into something I don't understand, I get curious to figure things out, even if it's why some people are vegetarians, or why some people will never eat salad.