Originally posted by Beartosser

"It's just not as complex to solo versus group/raid.

You don't have to have the same skill set."
 

PvP players have a different skill set too, and they have seperate self contained paths and reward systems at end game.

Why don't they go the same route for solo players, who are an even larger subset in the MMO genre?

Because, honestly, and without trying to sound like an ass, these are MMOs not MSOs.

If the game DIDN'T encourage grouping or guide you to it, ESPECIALLY at end game, it just wouldn't be a MMO.

And as for being a "larger subset" of the genre, maybe for leveling sure a lot more people solo but by the time you reach end-game I can gaurantee you the vast majority, of largest subset of the genre does grouping.

Maybe because they are "forced" to but I don't see this as a problem.

In a game like WoW with 10 classes and 10 races and dozens of zones and thousands of quests and 79 levels of pretty much completely solo content...

Don't you think you are asking for a bit much for them to CONTINUE to cater to you? Imagine how the people who LOVE grouping and raids feel, they'd raid and group from level 1 to 80 if they could, I know I would love that, we ONLY get end-game stuff for our grouping needs.

---

Originally posted by johnspartan
Why do soloers NEED the same level of gear as the raid gear?
I mean, do solo mobs hit for 15k per hit and require you to be healed for 8k HPS or you are toast?
No, IMO solo players and small group don't need the same quality of gear because the content isn't as demanding in a min/max standpoint as the raider.

---

That's like saying "WOW's solo content is easy, so those guys don't need or deserve good gear" which isn't terribly useful for this discussion.

Are you incapable of imagining a game where solo content is difficult? Difficult solo content simultaneously (a) is deserving of better reward and (b) is demanding of better gear.

The simple fact is that all content should have its reward based on its difficulty, and that yes - grouping adds some difficulty. But the ideal game has progressively harder content across all types of play, and thus provides gear progression across all types of play. If the solo side of this progression is particularly challenging so that the overall difficulty is even with grouping/raiding, so be it. (Although personally what I'd care about most is seeing small group content be tougher than raiding, and thus provide similar rewards.)

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

 

That's like saying "WOW's solo content is easy, so those guys don't need or deserve good gear" isn't terribly useful for this discussion.

Are you incapable of imagining a game where solo content is difficult? Difficult solo content simultaneously (a) is deserving of better reward and (b) is demanding of better gear.

The simple fact is that all content should have its reward based on its difficulty, and that yes - grouping adds some difficulty. But the ideal game has progressively harder content across all types of play, and thus provides gear progression across all types of play. If the solo side of this progression is particularly challenging so that the overall difficulty is even with grouping/raiding, so be it. (Although personally what I'd care about most is seeing small group content be tougher than raiding, and thus provide similar rewards.)

And I'd agree with you on that point. Are you incapable of being friendly and constructive? That comment was not needed. You're the one who said they didn't deserve the same gear, I just said they don't need it. Which they don't, they just want it.

Imagine it this way then -

Content in MMOs is designed to be repeated at end-game. Dungeons, raids, PvP...

So in the same sense, equally challenging solo content with equal rewards would have to be designed to be repeated.

You just can't create enough content in a reasonable time frame to satisfy everyone and not have to repeat it.

So even if it is challenging, do you want to keep soloing the same challening boss / quest over and over again?

Grouping provides a social outlet as well as a degree of variation to make the repetitive nature a little more bareable.

Solo content, well, it's always just you and it's always the same.

For me? No thanks.

I'd echo an early post that FFXI was the least solo friendly MMO I'd every played; after the first few levels it was almost impossible to solo (pre-expansion classes).

Forcing grouping for general (non-Raid) content is a bad idea. However, ENTICING people to group is, in my mind, a great idea. The following concepts have been in place to a lesser extent in some games, but not many that I've played:

1. Exp bonus while grouping - in most cases, groups are forced to fight harder monsters (or group-class mobs) to earn the same experience someone soloing would in a solo-friendly game. The better policy would be to allow them to fight the same class monsters, divide by the number of people in the group, and then apply a bonus to demonstrate that they are actually getting more experience than by soloing. I remember in WoW it was often faster to quest/grind solo than with friends due to bad group xp splitting.
2. Increase drop chances for groups - another concept would be to increase the drop percentage for monsters for each member of a group added. I don't mean to modify the drop scale or what can be dropped, just to increase the frequency of drops. Increasing the chances for upper-end drops of a mob's drop scale would be a nice to have as well

The intention here is to provide a clear incentive to grouping. You want players to group; it encourages socialization. However, you should not offer rewards that would be otherwise inaccessible to people who want to solo.

"Because, honestly, and without trying to sound like an ass, these are MMOs not MSOs."

Massively Multiple Online doesn't mean Massively Multiple Raiding Online, it just means many people are partaking in their playstyle, within the same playspace. Please feel free to look up Nicholas Yee's work for a more thorough understanding of the social dynamics behind concepts such as Alone Together. In a nutshell, solo is a valid playstyle, whether you like it or not.

"Don't you think you are asking for a bit much for them to CONTINUE to cater to you? Imagine how the people who LOVE grouping and raids feel, they'd raid and group from level 1 to 80 if they could, I know I would love that, we ONLY get end-game stuff for our grouping needs."
 

You can group for the entire game in WoW if you want, and receive the best awards, what you can't do is solo the end game. Of course, that's not enough for in addition to that, YOU want solo players to be forced to subsidize YOUR playstyle.

It's amazing how quickly entitlement can colour ones viewpoint on equality.

Lots of classes soloed in eq1.  To the point of "groups are harder so they should get the best gear", no not always.  Sometimes its a point of honor to me to solo some content that would be trivially easy in a group yet that most people will only group.  I do agree that hard content should get better gear, but dont think so much of yourself just because you have 5 people with you.  Sometimes its a sign of weakness.

Originally posted by Beartosser

"Because, honestly, and without trying to sound like an ass, these are MMOs not MSOs."

Massively Multiple Online doesn't mean Massively Multiple Raiding Online, it just means many people are partaking in their playstyle, within the same playspace. Please feel free to look up Nicholas Yee's work for a more thorough understanding of the social dynamics behind concepts such as Alone Together. In a nutshell, solo is a valid playstyle, whether you like it or not.

"Don't you think you are asking for a bit much for them to CONTINUE to cater to you? Imagine how the people who LOVE grouping and raids feel, they'd raid and group from level 1 to 80 if they could, I know I would love that, we ONLY get end-game stuff for our grouping needs."
 

You can group for the entire game in WoW if you want, and receive the best awards, what you can't do is solo the end game. Of course, that's not enough for in addition to that, YOU want solo players to be forced to subsidize YOUR playstyle.

It's amazing how quickly entitlement can colour ones viewpoint on equality.

Stop putting words in my mouth and play nice or I will burn you son.

Solo is a very valid play style and guess what most games you can solo 95% of the content, where as 5% is forced grouping at the "end-game" if that isn't enough solo for you, you are greedy.

It's amazing how wrong you are about me.

I will report you for flaming/trolling if you keep this up.

Getting 95% of something that caters to you and then asking for the last 5% is greed. Plain and simple. Let groupers have their fun, let them have their end-game, and if you are really that jealous of their shiny epics, join a PUG.

If you are THAT against grouping, you're SOL and honestly developers could care less because you are such a small minority it's not worth their development time, money, and effort to create any more content for your playstyle then they already have. It's us group players that feel the worst because so much time and effort is being taken to appeal to solo players that it's hurting what we enjoy about the game. Your opinion/viewpoint is not the only one.

You are the one trying to force your solo only playstyle on group players, making us feel bad because we like to group? That's ridiculous. I solo when I can't group, or when I choose not to group, and I don't feel "forced" to group I actually enjoy it.

If you don't, well, sorry but again you are SOL these are in fact online games that ENCOURAGE social interaction i.e. grouping if you don't like it, I am really am sorry but asking for equal solo content is selfish and you are demanding too much.
 
In a perfect world, there would be billions of hours of solo content and enough phat loot to keep solo players happy, and also billions of hours of group content and loot for us... but developers have to choose. And since the VAST majority participate in group content at the end game, they HAVE to chose to focus their development efforts on that.

Now keep the tone civil and stop putting words in my mouth.

Originally posted by johnspartan

Originally posted by Beartosser

"
 

Stop putting words in my mouth and play nice or I will burn you son.

Solo is a very valid play style and guess what most games you can solo 95% of the content, where as 5% is forced grouping at the "end-game" if that isn't enough solo for you, you are greedy.

It's amazing how wrong you are about me.
I will report you for flaming/trolling if you keep this up.

Getting 95% of something that caters to you and then asking for the last 5% is greed. Plain and simple. Let groupers have their fun, let them have their end-game, and if you are really that jealous of their shiny epics, join a PUG.

If you are THAT against grouping, you're SOL and honestly developers could care less because you are such a small minority it's not worth their development time, money, and effort to create any more content for your playstyle then they already have. It's us group players that feel the worst because so much time and effort is being taken to appeal to solo players that it's hurting what we enjoy about the game. Your opinion/viewpoint is not the only one.

You are the one trying to force your solo only playstyle on group players, making us feel bad because we like to group? That's ridiculous. I solo when I can't group, or when I choose not to group, and I don't feel "forced" to group I actually enjoy it.

If you don't, well, sorry but again you are SOL these are in fact online games that ENCOURAGE social interaction i.e. grouping if you don't like it, I am really am sorry but asking for equal solo content is selfish and you are demanding too much.
 
In a perfect world, there would be billions of hours of solo content and enough phat loot to keep solo players happy, and also billions of hours of group content and loot for us... but developers have to choose. And since the VAST majority participate in group content at the end game, they HAVE to chose to focus their development efforts on that.

Now keep the tone civil and stop putting words in my mouth.

Wow you are overly sensitive. I didn't see anything in his comments that weren't civil. YOu might not agree with him disagreeing with you or that he's very direct in telling you so, but he wasn't rude to you at all.

The fact that you want to report him for having a dissenting opinion is just weak and chlidish. People like you are the reason discussions cannot remain civil or productive and new ideas are hindered by that stone cold stubborness and woe is me attitude.

... but back to the topic at hand.  Many complaints from the soloer's are about loot. I still think the problem is the phat loot being from pve encounters and not crafters is the issue. You can make rewards in the forms of trophy's, titles, plaques,, or some other non +stat equipment drop.  If you grant a title or acheivement for the encounter than you reward the group players for their efforts without seperation of gear-loot-power.   

For soloer's to think that they should be able to solo epic mobs and group encounters should be removed from the game completely, I think that's being a bit selfish. If you want a game that caters to you and only you, buy a single player game. It's not what people want to hear, but if you remove the group encounter from all aspects of the game, that's what your left with anyways.

Originally posted by Greenie

Wow you are overly sensitive. I didn't see anything in his comments that weren't civil. YOu might not agree with him disagreeing with you or that he's very direct in telling you so, but he wasn't rude to you at all.

The fact that you want to report him for having a dissenting opinion is just weak and chlidish. People like you are the reason discussions cannot remain civil or productive and new ideas are hindered by that stone cold stubborness and woe is me attitude.

... but back to the topic at hand.  Many complaints from the soloer's are about loot. I still think the problem is the phat loot being from pve encounters and not crafters is the issue. You can make rewards in the forms of trophy's, titles, plaques,, or some other non +stat equipment drop.  If you grant a title or acheivement for the encounter than you reward the group players for their efforts without seperation of gear-loot-power.   

For soloer's to think that they should be able to solo epic mobs and group encounters should be removed from the game completely, I think that's being a bit selfish. If you want a game that caters to you and only you, buy a single player game. It's not what people want to hear, but if you remove the group encounter from all aspects of the game, that's what your left with anyways.

Putting words in my mouth offends me greatly. I am not reporting people for disagreeing, that is childish, I am reporting people for retaliating with attacks on my person instead of countering my arguments. When I counter theirs, I am attacked. This is not accceptable, and I will continue to counter their arguments with my own but will not put up with harrassment on a forum, in person, or ever. 

Having the option to allowing everything to be done solo means that people won't even try to find groups. There will be some who will, but at the first sign of trouble or a bad group memeber or you have 7 people instead of 8, "screw it I'll just go solo it, the rewards are the same why deal with other people anyway right?"

It would absolutely destroy the community and social aspect of MMOs.

Forced grouping is forced community interaction. Forced socialization. I can understand if people don't like that, but if you get rid of it then a lot of people well never even try and it'll destroy the rest of the community who does want to be a community.

---

Originally posted by johnspartan 
And I'd agree with you on that point. Are you incapable of being friendly and constructive? That comment was not needed. You're the one who said they didn't deserve the same gear, I just said they don't need it. Which they don't, they just want it.

Imagine it this way then -
Content in MMOs is designed to be repeated at end-game. Dungeons, raids, PvP...

So in the same sense, equally challenging solo content with equal rewards would have to be designed to be repeated.

You just can't create enough content in a reasonable time frame to satisfy everyone and not have to repeat it.

So even if it is challenging, do you want to keep soloing the same challening boss / quest over and over again?

Grouping provides a social outlet as well as a degree of variation to make the repetitive nature a little more bareable.

Solo content, well, it's always just you and it's always the same.

For me? No thanks.

---

Of course soloers need gear! A soloer beats Quest A's boss by going all out and dealing 500dps. Quest B's boss enrages in 2 mins, so if you don't deal 750dps you will always lose. And hey, look at that: Quest A's reward was a 750dps Axe! Excellent!

Oh it's not like that in WOW? Well that's the reason for my earlier comment - just because WOW's specific implementation of solo content is super easy, that doesn't mean hard solo content can't be made.

As for content pipeline limitations, CoX re-uses nearly all their content and provides solo versions for nearly everything too. It's an efficient approach to content creation.

It's not like that in WOW? True, but they're taking steps towards improving things if what I hear is true about the next patch providing a dungeon which has 5-, 10-, and 25-man versions with heroic/normal settings.

As for repeating dungeons, players are willing to repeatedly kill raid bosses aren't they? And Diablo 2 players repeatedly killed bosses solo in that game. It's not a huge stretch to imagine putting some variation into dungeon design (so things are always a little different each time you go in) so that the solo dungeon experience is genuinely fun.

When everything has relatively even balance, I'd almost certainly spend my time doing small grouping rather than solo, but I'd much rather have the option to solo my character and make progress than to spend 30 mins looking for a group member then give up and log off because there's no way to advance my character. (and don't even get me started on the downsides of raiding.)

Originally posted by johnspartan

 

Putting words in my mouth offends me greatly. I am not reporting people for disagreeing, that is childish, I am reporting people for retaliating with attacks on my person instead of countering my arguments. When I counter theirs, I am attacked. This is not accceptable, and I will continue to counter their arguments with my own but will not put up with harrassment on a forum, in person, or ever. 

Having the option to allowing everything to be done solo means that people won't even try to find groups. There will be some who will, but at the first sign of trouble or a bad group memeber or you have 7 people instead of 8, "screw it I'll just go solo it, the rewards are the same why deal with other people anyway right?"

It would absolutely destroy the community and social aspect of MMOs.

Forced grouping is forced community interaction. Forced socialization. I can understand if people don't like that, but if you get rid of it then a lot of people well never even try and it'll destroy the rest of the community who does want to be a community.

I"m not arguing at all about the social aspect of the games and grouping. I actually agree the increase in solo game play has helped destroy communities because their is no social punishment for acting like an asshole in today's game. I also believe the phattest loot dropping form encounters is a large contributor as well.

What I didn't see was any attack on your person from his posts.   I saw him respond to you and ask you leading questions that would create a response from you. I saw him state his opinion.  People in discussions are always going to try and twish your words and mine, whether it is intentional or not. That still is not a personal attack. If you believe strongly enough and are capable enough, you can correct them and at some point they will either get it or someone else reading the thread will get what you're saying and your  position and might possibly be able to convey the message so that person you feel jaded by can understand exactly what you're saying.

As for personal attacks, again I did not see him make any.

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

 

Of course soloers need gear! A soloer beats Quest A's boss by going all out and dealing 500dps. Quest B's boss enrages in 2 mins, so if you don't deal 750dps you will always lose. And hey, look at that: Quest A's reward was a 750dps Axe! Excellent!

Oh it's not like that in WOW? Well that's the reason for my earlier comment - just because WOW's specific implementation of solo content is super easy, that doesn't mean hard solo content can't be made.

As for content pipeline limitations, CoX re-uses nearly all their content and provides solo versions for nearly everything too. It's an efficient approach to content creation.

It's not like that in WOW? True, but they're taking steps towards improving things if what I hear is true about the next patch providing a dungeon which has 5-, 10-, and 25-man versions with heroic/normal settings.

As for repeating dungeons, players are willing to repeatedly kill raid bosses aren't they? And Diablo 2 players repeatedly killed bosses solo in that game. It's not a huge stretch to imagine putting some variation into dungeon design (so things are always a little different each time you go in) so that the solo dungeon experience is genuinely fun.

When everything has relatively even balance, I'd almost certainly spend my time doing small grouping rather than solo, but I'd much rather have the option to solo my character and make progress than to spend 30 mins looking for a group member then give up and log off because there's no way to advance my character. (and don't even get me started on the downsides of raiding.)

Very well said, and I understand your point completely and honestly I'd wish that could be true.

But again it comes down to developer time and effort and cost and talent. All are finite resources. They have to choose what to focus on, and unfortunately for you and others with a similar play style, you are the minority when it comes to "end-game" content.

I'd love to have "epic" solo content with great rewards to go along side my group and raid content, but I also like my content to be polished and well balanced and for new stuff to be released at a pace that keeps me from going crazy from the repetition.

Honestly I think you're asking for too much.

But they are working on it. Once again Blizzard is leading the way with 6 different "tiers" of nearly the exact same content in patch 3.2 for different play styles.

"If you are THAT against grouping, you're SOL and honestly developers could care less because you are such a small minority it's not worth their development time, money, and effort to create any more content for your playstyle then they already have."

It's very much worth their effort, since the solo playstyle is in fact the largest minority. WoW only began to tap into that lucrative segment of customers with their solo freindly 1 to cap levelling, and it's paid off handsomely for them. Now BioWare is claiming they'll take it a step further in terms of solo freindly game mechanics with SW:TOR, and they'll tap into some of those customers too. If that game doesn't bring equality with it, then others down the road will up the ante. It's only a matter of time.

"You are the one trying to force your solo only playstyle on group players, making us feel bad because we like to group?"

Currently, it's solo players who are forced to group in order to advance their characters. All I'm asking for is the ability to do so independently of group mechanics. This is a fair request that has very little impact on groupers ability to play their playstyle.

Originally posted by svann

Lots of classes soloed in eq1.  To the point of "groups are harder so they should get the best gear", no not always.  Sometimes its a point of honor to me to solo some content that would be trivially easy in a group yet that most people will only group.  I do agree that hard content should get better gear, but dont think so much of yourself just because you have 5 people with you.  Sometimes its a sign of weakness.

That's no different than saying sometimes I take on mobs my same level or greater, but it would be easy to kill mobs lower levels than me (like green).

It's an rpg. Your skill has very little to do with the outcome of any particular encounter when you solo.

It's simply your stats, versus the Mobs stats, with some random numbers thrown in. That's it. Unless you are retarded, and just push the wrong buttons, or you try to melee when you're a nuker or something equally dumb, and that doesn't require much skill.

But in a group, you can easily make mistakes.

You're comparing a group vs an weak mob, and a solo versus a strong mob, which is not a fair comparison.

But if a group takes on a mob their equal, and if a solo takes on a mob her equal, the group game is much harder because of the coordination required.

Originally posted by johnspartan

Originally posted by Greenie

Wow you are overly sensitive. I didn't see anything in his comments that weren't civil. YOu might not agree with him disagreeing with you or that he's very direct in telling you so, but he wasn't rude to you at all.

The fact that you want to report him for having a dissenting opinion is just weak and chlidish. People like you are the reason discussions cannot remain civil or productive and new ideas are hindered by that stone cold stubborness and woe is me attitude.

... but back to the topic at hand.  Many complaints from the soloer's are about loot. I still think the problem is the phat loot being from pve encounters and not crafters is the issue. You can make rewards in the forms of trophy's, titles, plaques,, or some other non +stat equipment drop.  If you grant a title or acheivement for the encounter than you reward the group players for their efforts without seperation of gear-loot-power.   

For soloer's to think that they should be able to solo epic mobs and group encounters should be removed from the game completely, I think that's being a bit selfish. If you want a game that caters to you and only you, buy a single player game. It's not what people want to hear, but if you remove the group encounter from all aspects of the game, that's what your left with anyways.

 

Putting words in my mouth offends me greatly. I am not reporting people for disagreeing, that is childish, I am reporting people for retaliating with attacks on my person instead of countering my arguments. When I counter theirs, I am attacked. This is not accceptable, and I will continue to counter their arguments with my own but will not put up with harrassment on a forum, in person, or ever. 

Having the option to allowing everything to be done solo means that people won't even try to find groups. There will be some who will, but at the first sign of trouble or a bad group memeber or you have 7 people instead of 8, "screw it I'll just go solo it, the rewards are the same why deal with other people anyway right?"

It would absolutely destroy the community and social aspect of MMOs.

Forced grouping is forced community interaction. Forced socialization. I can understand if people don't like that, but if you get rid of it then a lot of people well never even try and it'll destroy the rest of the community who does want to be a community.

You know, if most people would choose to avoid grouping, then maybe something is wrong with the whole concept of always requiring multiple people to accomplish something.

As for forced grouping and community, there are much better ways of "forcing" community interaction. Look up Ultima Online or EVE Online. Both of those games do not force grouping and they have some of the best communities out there. Now look at WoW, a game that "forces" grouping at max level. It has one of the foulest communities every witnessed in MMOs.

Forced grouping as a way to promote community is used by developers who lack the imagination or resources to implement better community building tools.

Originally posted by Beartosser

"If you are THAT against grouping, you're SOL and honestly developers could care less because you are such a small minority it's not worth their development time, money, and effort to create any more content for your playstyle then they already have."

It's very much worth their effort, since the solo playstyle is in fact the largest minority. WoW only began to tap into that lucrative segment of customers with their solo freindly 1 to cap levelling, and it's paid off handsomely for them. Now BioWare is claiming they'll take it a step further in terms of solo freindly game mechanics with SW:TOR, and they'll tap into some of those customers too. If that game doesn't bring equality with it, then others down the road will up the ante. It's only a matter of time.

"You are the one trying to force your solo only playstyle on group players, making us feel bad because we like to group?"

Currently, it's solo players who are forced to group in order to advance their characters. All I'm asking for is the ability to do so independently of group mechanics. This is a fair request that has very little impact on groupers ability to play their playstyle.

Taht's where you are making a fatal flaw in your argument.

It has a huge affect on groupers, because it changes the rules of the entire server.

How does making it easy for you to solo NOT make it easy for me to solo?

If you make it easy for ME to solo (I'm a grouper) haven't you affected me?

Originally posted by johnspartan

Originally posted by Beartosser

"I'm an American, I'm used to capitalistic ideals so I'd rather not play some socialist MMO."

This comparison is invalid since a hard working, skilled raider or soloer can easily thrive in your idealistic capitalist MMO. The same can't be said for a caste system though.

Capitalism is based on the idea of have and have nots, just like a feudal or caste system.

You could go as far as to say that having the time and guild structure to enable you to raid is like having the means of production to be a factory owner i.e. capitalist where as the player without the time and/or guild structure doesn't own the means of production neccessary, so must simply be another cog in the machine...

Life's not fair, IMO you have to deal with it, enjoy what you have and make the best of it.

Same is true in a MMO. If you can't raid or do group content, make the best of what you can do and enjoy it or find something else you enjoy more.

Asking the rest of the world/game to change for you is unrealistic and just plain selfish IMO.

Capitalism is based on the idea that if you work hard enough, try hard enough, you can obtain all the goals you want to and succeed at the very highest levels in life. In a caste system you cannot go above your rank no matter how hard you work or how much effort you put into it. The parallel is very similar to the group/solo argument. Except in capitalism you are going to need help from others a long the way. Oprah doesn't get where she is without the support of other people regardless or not if her drive was the main focus of her success.

But like you stated earlier, when a person buys the game, they know what they're getting into and cannot really complain about it afterwards and expect people to take them seriously.

Calling for new games to incorporate your ideas is one thing, bitching that an existing game has that mechanic, has always had that mechanic/concept, and was at the forefront in terms of concept is another.

"For soloer's to think that they should be able to solo epic mobs and group encounters should be removed from the game completely, I think that's being a bit selfish."

I don't want group/raid content removed or altered at all. What I'm asking for is completely seperate solo content at end game.

I don't think that's being unreasonable.

Originally posted by heartless 

You know, if most people would choose to avoid grouping, then maybe something is wrong with the whole concept of always requiring multiple people to accomplish something.

As for forced grouping and community, there are much better ways of "forcing" community interaction. Look up Ultima Online or EVE Online. Both of those games do not force grouping and they have some of the best communities out there. Now look at WoW, a game that "forces" grouping at max level. It has one of the foulest communities every witnessed in MMOs.

Forced grouping as a way to promote community is used by developers who lack the imagination or resources to implement better community building tools.

I loved UO...

EVE, well, too far behind and too uninterested in offline skill gain and farming $ in grind missions.

"One of the foulest communities" is very subjective.

I do understand your point, if you don't force grouping people will only group when they want to and with who they want to.

At the same sense though, I only really grouped up with the same few people in UO or my clan on Siege, and never really made any "random" friends.

Where as in WoW, I've had great experienes pugging or even hopping into a guild where I only knew one person, but after a few days of forced grouping with these people made a bunch of really good in-game friends.

Again, it's all subjective and up to personal interpretation. I've met some of my favorite online people in WoW, and had some of my best and fondest MMORPG memories because of it.

Forced social interaction can and does lead to those chance PUG encounters where you meet people that you end up playing with for years.

That being said, there are better tools out there for fostering community available I agree whole heartedly.

Originally posted by Beartosser

"For soloer's to think that they should be able to solo epic mobs and group encounters should be removed from the game completely, I think that's being a bit selfish."

I don't want group/raid content removed or altered at all. What I'm asking for is completely seperate solo content at end game.

I don't think that's being unreasonable.

Why would that be "end game"?

That would just be more "game".