Maybe in the past like games with everquest 1 when it was very difficult to solo. but today when everything is watered down to the max I cant even think of one game where you cant solo. Can any one else?

I can't think of any games today that have as good group play as EQ and DAoC before the expansions.

Yet still the soloers complain.

They want raiding taken out of the end game, because it's not fair they can't solo the end game. But if you can solo the raids, then wouldn't they just be more content and not "end game".

There would be no end game, just soloing and leveling, till there aren't any more levels to make, then what? An expansion where you solo gods? Then what? An expansion where you solo gods that can kill gods? Then what?

Originally posted by Ozarumon

Maybe in the past like games with everquest 1 when it was very difficult to solo. but today when everything is watered down to the max I cant even think of one game where you cant solo. Can any one else?

Pretty much impossible to solo to level cap in FFXI unless you are a beastmaster or something. You can't really solo after about level 10-12 of the starting area.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I can't think of any games today that have as good solo play as EQ and DAoC before the expansions.

Yet still the soloers complain.

They want raiding taken out of the end game, because it's not fair they can't solo the end game. But if you can solo the raids, then wouldn't they just be more content and not "end game".

There would be no end game, just soloing and leveling, till there aren't any more levels to make, then what? An expansion where you solo gods? Then what? An expansion where you solo gods that can kill gods? Then what?

Exactly if soloers want to solo the entire game they should only get gear that allows them advance through soloing more. Group play is more difficult then solo play thats why we get better gear to advance to big raids.

 I dont wanna play a game where I can solo everything and get almost as good gear as some one who brought down a god.

Originally posted by Rajen

Originally posted by Ozarumon

Maybe in the past like games with everquest 1 when it was very difficult to solo. but today when everything is watered down to the max I cant even think of one game where you cant solo. Can any one else?

 

Pretty much impossible to solo to level cap in FFXI unless you are a beastmaster or something. You can't really solo after about level 10-12 of the starting area.

I forgot about FF11 but that was out about the same time EQ1 was still king. and mmos were harder back then but even in FF11 today you can solo with any class much easier than you could during release.

I get the impression Vanguard is hard to solo. Possible, but hard. Only thing kept me from playing. And I have gotten mixed responses to that. But since the good old days when my RL friend said I could solo Asheron's Call, and I couldn't do a damn thing alone, if I hear rumors that it's a group focused game, I stay away until I have proof otherwise. I

Oh, and D&D Online was a group game. They may have changed that though to more soloable content. Dunno.

And you can complain about soloers ruining your game all you want, the fact that most developers are making solo- friendly games would seem to prove there are more soloers than strict groupers.

Originally posted by Senadina

I get the impression Vanguard is hard to solo. Possible, but hard. Only thing kept me from playing. And I have gotten mixed responses to that. But since the good old days when my RL friend said I could solo Asheron's Call, and I couldn't do a damn thing alone, if I hear rumors that it's a group focused game, I stay away until I have proof otherwise. I

Oh, and D&D Online was a group game. They may have changed that though to more soloable content. Dunno.

And you can complain about soloers ruining your game all you want, the fact that most developers are making solo- friendly games would seem to prove there are more soloers than strict groupers.

Yea they changed D&D as well when it was released it was hard to solo now you can solo to max level. Also Vanguard is easier to solo to max then WoW. I also never said Soloers are ruining my games I am just saying they are the biggest groups that complain in any mmo.

That comment wasn't really directed at you OP, just the people I see in these solo VS. group threads over and over. And to be fair, I am one of those too.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I can't think of any games today that have as good solo play as EQ and DAoC before the expansions.

Yet still the soloers complain.

 

DId you just say EQ and DAOC had GOOD soloing before their expansions?   Long, monotonous autoattacking(there were very few real skills or abilities then), with a few minutes of down time between each fight, with enough quests to count on one hand and no rewards, is GOOD?   To each his own I guess.  Wait, this was a joke=)

Originally posted by Senadina

I get the impression Vanguard is hard to solo. Possible, but hard. Only thing kept me from playing. And I have gotten mixed responses to that. But since the good old days when my RL friend said I could solo Asheron's Call, and I couldn't do a damn thing alone, if I hear rumors that it's a group focused game, I stay away until I have proof otherwise. I

Oh, and D&D Online was a group game. They may have changed that though to more soloable content. Dunno.

And you can complain about soloers ruining your game all you want, the fact that most developers are making solo- friendly games would seem to prove there are more soloers than strict groupers.

I don' t think anyone is going to argue with you about that. WoW was so solo friendly during leveling I couldn't play it, and it's the most popular mmorpg.

How many people that play WoW play it for the end game? I got no idea, but I think significantly more people play it for the leveling part of the game, and make alts.

It's the group players that need more games, not the solo folks. They can level up in all the newer solo friendly games, but there aren't any good new group games.

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I can't think of any games today that have as good solo play as EQ and DAoC before the expansions.

Yet still the soloers complain.

 

 

DId you just say EQ and DAOC had GOOD soloing before their expansions?   Long, monotonous autoattacking(there were very few real skills or abilities then), with a few minutes of down time between each fight, with enough quests to count on one hand and no rewards, is GOOD?   To each his own I guess.  Wait, this was a joke=)

It was a typo, which I corrected. I mean to say they had good grouping games.

Just enough downtime to let you discuss what to do next, chat, etc., while you regained hit points, mana, lost rez sickness, and could start fighting again.

Newer games lke CoH, have no downtime. It's fight, fight, fight, kill boss mob, done, kthxbye.

I like something with a bit slower pace.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I can't think of any games today that have as good group play as EQ and DAoC before the expansions.

Yet still the soloers complain.

They want raiding taken out of the end game, because it's not fair they can't solo the end game. But if you can solo the raids, then wouldn't they just be more content and not "end game".

There would be no end game, just soloing and leveling, till there aren't any more levels to make, then what? An expansion where you solo gods? Then what? An expansion where you solo gods that can kill gods? Then what?

No, we don't want raiding taken out of the "end game"; we're not trying to transform current games into the soloer model. It's fine that there are so many games that are coded around giving groups/raids exclusively superior content rewards is fine; however we'd just like some games to be produced where the soloer and casual player can **evetually** enjoy top-end content and reward.  Whether or not you and others like you can understand why want such games is irrelevant.

The way game developers are trying to serve both these interests  in the same game - exclusivity for groupers/hardcores, and access to top rewards for soloers/casuals - only serves to alienate both groups. A game can either offer exclusive rewards for groups/hardcore/ or it can offer soloers and  casuals a mechanism for **eventually** gaining the same rewards.  You can't do both.

Exclusivity-based games are fine; however, as of now I don't know of any MMOGs (other than perhaps EVE) that are not built on the exclusivity model.

Originally posted by Meleagar

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I can't think of any games today that have as good group play as EQ and DAoC before the expansions.

Yet still the soloers complain.

They want raiding taken out of the end game, because it's not fair they can't solo the end game. But if you can solo the raids, then wouldn't they just be more content and not "end game".

There would be no end game, just soloing and leveling, till there aren't any more levels to make, then what? An expansion where you solo gods? Then what? An expansion where you solo gods that can kill gods? Then what?

 

No, we don't want raiding taken out of the "end game"; we're not trying to transform current games into the soloer model. It's fine that there are so many games that are coded around giving groups/raids exclusively superior content rewards is fine; however we'd just like some games to be produced where the soloer and casual player can **evetually** enjoy top-end content and reward.  Whether or not you and others like you can understand why want such games is irrelevant.

The way game developers are trying to serve both these interests  in the same game - exclusivity for groupers/hardcores, and access to top rewards for soloers/casuals - only serves to alienate both groups. A game can either offer exclusive rewards for groups/hardcore/ or it can offer soloers and  casuals a mechanism for **eventually** gaining the same rewards.  You can't do both.

Exclusivity-based games are fine; however, as of now I don't know of any MMOGs (other than perhaps EVE) that are not built on the exclusivity model.

Soloers should be given loot that allows them to advance in solo content like group loot allows players to advance in harder dungeons and raids. Soloers should not be given same quality or just almost as good quality gear as a raider/grouper.

Originally posted by Ozarumon

Originally posted by Meleagar

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I can't think of any games today that have as good group play as EQ and DAoC before the expansions.

Yet still the soloers complain.

They want raiding taken out of the end game, because it's not fair they can't solo the end game. But if you can solo the raids, then wouldn't they just be more content and not "end game".

There would be no end game, just soloing and leveling, till there aren't any more levels to make, then what? An expansion where you solo gods? Then what? An expansion where you solo gods that can kill gods? Then what?

 

No, we don't want raiding taken out of the "end game"; we're not trying to transform current games into the soloer model. It's fine that there are so many games that are coded around giving groups/raids exclusively superior content rewards is fine; however we'd just like some games to be produced where the soloer and casual player can **evetually** enjoy top-end content and reward.  Whether or not you and others like you can understand why want such games is irrelevant.

The way game developers are trying to serve both these interests  in the same game - exclusivity for groupers/hardcores, and access to top rewards for soloers/casuals - only serves to alienate both groups. A game can either offer exclusive rewards for groups/hardcore/ or it can offer soloers and  casuals a mechanism for **eventually** gaining the same rewards.  You can't do both.

Exclusivity-based games are fine; however, as of now I don't know of any MMOGs (other than perhaps EVE) that are not built on the exclusivity model.

Soloers should be given loot that allows them to advance in solo content like group loot allows players to advance in harder dungeons and raids. Soloers should not be given same quality or just almost as good quality gear as a raider/grouper.

This has already been answered. There can be solo instances that require equal gear to survive/beat.

Originally posted by Ozarumon 

Soloers should be given loot that allows them to advance in solo content like group loot allows players to advance in harder dungeons and raids. Soloers should not be given same quality or just almost as good quality gear as a raider/grouper.

In principle I agree with you.  However, if the majority of the new content that a game adds is big group based then the soloer/casual grouper  will always be faced with the Group or Quit ultimatum.  And if the devs expect the soloers/casual groupers to participate in the heavy grouping end game, they better give them equivalent gear or the entire thing is moot.

If the solo/casual grouper content was given equal treatment as the raid/heavy grouping content then I the hardcore groupers can have the biggest 'epeen-enlarging' gear they want.  However, if the devs insist on funneling solor/casual grouping people into the raiding/big group content they better make the barriers to entry as low as possible.

Originally posted by Ozarumon

Originally posted by Meleagar

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I can't think of any games today that have as good group play as EQ and DAoC before the expansions.

Yet still the soloers complain.

They want raiding taken out of the end game, because it's not fair they can't solo the end game. But if you can solo the raids, then wouldn't they just be more content and not "end game".

There would be no end game, just soloing and leveling, till there aren't any more levels to make, then what? An expansion where you solo gods? Then what? An expansion where you solo gods that can kill gods? Then what?

 

No, we don't want raiding taken out of the "end game"; we're not trying to transform current games into the soloer model. It's fine that there are so many games that are coded around giving groups/raids exclusively superior content rewards is fine; however we'd just like some games to be produced where the soloer and casual player can **evetually** enjoy top-end content and reward.  Whether or not you and others like you can understand why want such games is irrelevant.

The way game developers are trying to serve both these interests  in the same game - exclusivity for groupers/hardcores, and access to top rewards for soloers/casuals - only serves to alienate both groups. A game can either offer exclusive rewards for groups/hardcore/ or it can offer soloers and  casuals a mechanism for **eventually** gaining the same rewards.  You can't do both.

Exclusivity-based games are fine; however, as of now I don't know of any MMOGs (other than perhaps EVE) that are not built on the exclusivity model.

Soloers should be given loot that allows them to advance in solo content like group loot allows players to advance in harder dungeons and raids. Soloers should not be given same quality or just almost as good quality gear as a raider/grouper.

That's a good idea but only if the raid gear (which is generally better than solo gear) would only be usable while raiding. Otherwise, you're giving preference to raiders by making soloing and PvP easier for them.

I mean raiders only raid so that they can gear up for hard raids, right?

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Ozarumon

Originally posted by Meleagar

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I can't think of any games today that have as good group play as EQ and DAoC before the expansions.

Yet still the soloers complain.

They want raiding taken out of the end game, because it's not fair they can't solo the end game. But if you can solo the raids, then wouldn't they just be more content and not "end game".

There would be no end game, just soloing and leveling, till there aren't any more levels to make, then what? An expansion where you solo gods? Then what? An expansion where you solo gods that can kill gods? Then what?

 

No, we don't want raiding taken out of the "end game"; we're not trying to transform current games into the soloer model. It's fine that there are so many games that are coded around giving groups/raids exclusively superior content rewards is fine; however we'd just like some games to be produced where the soloer and casual player can **evetually** enjoy top-end content and reward.  Whether or not you and others like you can understand why want such games is irrelevant.

The way game developers are trying to serve both these interests  in the same game - exclusivity for groupers/hardcores, and access to top rewards for soloers/casuals - only serves to alienate both groups. A game can either offer exclusive rewards for groups/hardcore/ or it can offer soloers and  casuals a mechanism for **eventually** gaining the same rewards.  You can't do both.

Exclusivity-based games are fine; however, as of now I don't know of any MMOGs (other than perhaps EVE) that are not built on the exclusivity model.

Soloers should be given loot that allows them to advance in solo content like group loot allows players to advance in harder dungeons and raids. Soloers should not be given same quality or just almost as good quality gear as a raider/grouper.

That's a good idea but only if the raid gear (which is generally better than solo gear) would only be usable while raiding. Otherwise, you're giving preference to raiders by making soloing and PvP easier for them.

I mean raiders only raid so that they can gear up for hard raids, right?

Why shouldnt they be given the preference? They work much much harder than those who enjoy soloing. 

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

It was a typo, which I corrected. I mean to say they had good grouping games.

Just enough downtime to let you discuss what to do next, chat, etc., while you regained hit points, mana, lost rez sickness, and could start fighting again.

Newer games lke CoH, have no downtime. It's fight, fight, fight, kill boss mob, done, kthxbye.

I like something with a bit slower pace.

Yeah, and that's something that some people don't seem to get.  Just because a game has some grouping it doesn't neccesarily mean that it's the type of grouping experience that will satisfy a group oriented player.

I haven't played CoH but I played Guild Wars some and even though you can group with other players for some of the missions it's not a very enjoyable experience for the most part.  It's generally just--RUN RUN RUN, KILL KILL KILL, done, the instance ends and hardly a word was exchanged between the members of the group.  And in most cases there was hardly any sort of cooperative effort required so it felt more like soloing near other people than like grouping. 

At this point in time, for me, the lack of good, friendly grouping is killing this genre more than anything else (for me I said).  I may talk about the <Dream Game> from time to time.  I may talk about sandboxy stuff.  I may talk about improved AI.  But putting aside dreams for the future, the thing that is making games RIGHT NOW completely unattractive to me is the lack of good grouping.

It's really depressing for me.  I'm not trying to convert anyone because that can't be done.  I'm just saying how it is for me. 

How about World of StarCraft

First off, I wish to kill the theory that developers should cater to soloers because that is what the majority wants, and that is what's best. So let's say that the majority of the world wanted only unhealthy fast-food restraunts. That's what the majority wants, but is it necessarily the best idea?

I think soloers should stay out of group games, and groupies stay out of solo games. It's that simple. And in those cases where games infuse soloers and groupies, then here are a few ideas I have to help balance everything out.

1. No side should get the overall "better" gear. If soloers got stronger gear, then it's no fair to groups who fight and handle more enemies yet do not get the better equipment for their harder work. If anything, the gear could be modified towards the different styles of gameplay. So for example, a soloer could get a chestplate that improves all their defenses. Meanwhile, a group person gets the same chestplate, but it gives weaker defenses, however it makes up for that loss of defense by giving you bonus health from any healing spell a teammate casts on you. That is what I believe about the gear perspective.

2. Everyone, stop getting on that train of thought that groups have it easier with surviving. Sometimes, groups can die quicker than soloers, which is why we depend on group raiding. I have an example from a time when I used to play Silkroad Online (before bots infested the game and utterly destroyed it). I once joined a group of 3 people, and I became the fourth person, so the party was maxed. However, we had a problem. We had no tankers in a group, only 2 archers, 1 wizard, and one warlock (who incendently could res because he had cleric subclass, but had nothing else, only res abilities). This lead to problems, since we had no cleric or bard on our team and only one person who could res, so if he died, the whole team was screwed. So how to settle that? We mob raided the stronger giant enemies together. Only together could we survive, and with teamwork, we all leveled up that day and had good gear for selling. So, stop thinking that groups always have it easier. We sometimes have it harder than you soloers.

3. Look soloers, I know you probably don't always have the time to play games (assuming most soloers are casual gamers), but group gamers should have an advantage for playing longer times (considering groups are consisted of hardcores). Eventually, everyone should reach max level with the same skills, but groups should be allowed to reach them quicker while soloers take longer. Groups have it hard, and as a result, they do deserve the rewards. Soloers, well, you'll eventually reach the max level, just not as quickly as groups (unless you played even more than a group person).

These are my thoughts on soloing and groups.

Edit Part: I would like to thank heremypet for giving me that fast food comparison thought. With it, I can now prove so many points.